Unabridged: Remaining Human with Kiese Laymon

In this episode of The Stacks Unabridged, we are joined once again by author Kiese Laymon, to discuss his first children’s book, City Summer, Country Summer, and the emotional resonance of sports narratives. We also share how we’re staying human in the midst of so much inhumanity.

TRANSCRIPT

Traci Thomas 0:00

Hey everybody. It's Traci. Welcome to another episode of The Stacks Unabridged, our bonus episode, exclusive for Patreon and Substack subscribers today because we can, because I love you and because I love him even more. I am joined today by friend of the podcast, Kiese Laymon. Kiese has a brand new children's book. It's called City, Summer, Country Summer. He and I talk about that today. But if you know anything about Kiese and I we talk about a lot, a lot a lot more, from authors feelings to what the hell do we do to remain human in this political moment and so much more. Okay, let's dive into my conversation with the greatest Kiese Layman.

Okay, everybody, your favorite person's here. Every time I ask you, who should I have on the show, at least 17 of you say you should have Kisa back. So guess what? Get off my back. Kiese is back in the Stacks. Welcome back, friends.

Kiese Laymon 1:16

What up? Traci, I feel like, you know, back again. You know I feel like, every time I hear here you interview anybody else, I always wish I was in the room with y'all. So thank, thank the 17 people that want to hear me again. It's new. I feel like, you know, we different than we were the last time we spoke.

Traci Thomas 1:34

I think the last time we talked on the podcast would have been like, two years. Well, the last time people heard us talk. Was the tour, yeah, but I think it was even three years ago since you were on the podcast, yeah, a while. It's been a while this year, 2025, marks, five years from your first episode.

Kiese Laymon 1:51

Oh man, and that, and that felt like a lot. I mean, I mean, my life changed a lot. Your Life definitely seemed like, professionally changed a lot.

Traci Thomas 1:59

Yeah. It's been a long I mean, that was like we recorded, I want to say, I want to say, the episode came out in July 2020 so we recorded on, like, June 2020 Yep, it's a long time like that was a whole different world.

Kiese Laymon 2:11

And think about power politically. I mean, politically where we were at that point, you know. And you know, what's wild is, I remember we took the, yeah, I shouldn't even get into it. See, the thing about you is, I love you is I love you so much, I start wanting to just talk like it's just me and you. But, yeah, I was, I was just starting to partake in gummies around that time. I'll just say that. And when I see that picture of myself holding my books, I'm like, Damn, you can see it. But also now everybody in the world is trying to get on the stacks, like, that's what's that's what's also so interesting. Every time I talk to authors, they're like, Hey, man, you think you give me on that stacks, bro, you think you give me. You think you give me? And I was like, man, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta highlight Traci.

Traci Thomas 2:45

You know, oh, my gosh. Well, it's because of you. I mean, I feel like, after you came on the show, people were like, Oh, maybe I want to go on the show.

Kiese Laymon 2:53

I think because we did something good together, you know, saying, like, if I would have been up on that, be like, you know, if you would have been like asking whack ass questions, nobody would have cared.

Traci Thomas 3:03

But you know, that's true. I still feel like five years later, and this is no shade to other guests that our conversation about breathe by Imani Perry was the first time I felt like I really nailed what the book club episode should be like. I had been working towards what we pulled together. I haven't gone back and listened, so I don't know maybe it sucks, but I remember in the moment when we were recording it, and then when I listened back to the edit being like, this is what I had hoped to make, yes, one day.

Kiese Laymon 3:37

You know, after it like, I'm still, like, a goofy kind of like eighth grader who like, when I vibe with people, I'm always, I'm always like, Oh, that's my cousin. And like, for me, that's when you became like, my cousin, you know what I'm saying. And I was just like, I hope she want to be my cousin, because that's my cousin.

Traci Thomas 3:53

I do. I so badly. Yeah. I mean, we are, I feel like, I feel like, in the five years since then, we've officially become cousins, for sure, but I can't say it good like you, because I don't have a southern at all, so I just, I just like my cousin.

Just like doesn't sound right?

Kiese Laymon 4:11

Sounds good enough to me.

Traci Thomas 4:13

Okay, before we talk about other stuff, because I do for people listening, here's our plan. We'll see if we stick to it, because we never have stuck to a plan in our lives is we're going to talk about the new book, City Summer, Country Summer. And then I want to talk about, how the hell are we remaining human in the world, right? That's great as people who make things and people who have to care about things and want to be plugged in. So we'll get there. Okay, let's start with the obvious question. Kiese Layman, prolific adult writer. You wrote a kid's book, a color a coloring book, a picture book. Actually, this should be a coloring book, coloring book. I would color the hell out of this book, though. Alexis Franklin is probably like, Don't fucking she's like, like, I actually made something really. Beautiful, don't you dare. But okay, why did you want to write a kid's book?

Kiese Laymon 5:04

You know what kind of book I saw Alexis yesterday for the first time ever. We've been doing all of this over over zoom, for the last, like, three years. And man, it was so beautiful. She came here to Houston. She from Dallas. Um, she's so young. I didn't realize how young she was. And I just want to say, like, I adore that, that woman in her art. But, you know, I wrote this piece around the same time that we talked. New York Times showed me these photographs by the incredible photographer, Andre Wagner of all New York City black boys and in the summertime. And they were like, Kia say, We want you to write one of these, like complimentary essays to go with these photographs. And then, you know, New York Times, like a lot of legacy publications, it's sort of stringent sometimes in their style. But I was like, I'll write, but I'm feeling prose poem. And they were like, I don't know about a prose poem. And I was like, Well, let me just do want to see. And, you know, for the most part, a lot of the language you see in that book, I mean, I had to take a lot of it out. But for the most part, you know, I wrote this story about this kid who comes down from New York and this other kid in Mississippi. And I was just trying to play with these ideas of like I and we and they, and, you know, collectivity and safeness, you know, for me, and environmental degradation and what happens, you know, I'm at the question below the text is, what happens when there are no more woods or gardens to play in for young people like that? And then, you know, Namrata came to me from coquina. She was like, I think this can be a picture book. And I was like, where? Because I always wanted to write books for kids, like long division was initially I was trying to write a book for young, young adults. I just couldn't pull it off the right way they wanted me to. So, you know, when she came and hit me and with the possibility, I was like, Okay, let's, let's do it. And then we had initial artists, because this was supposed to come out, like 2021 22 then the initial artist. Just took a while, and, you know, for different reasons, couldn't really do it. And then, you know, I got these other artists who wanted to do it, like, 40 or 50 or so, and then I just saw, like, I saw Alexis stuff, and I was just like, we ain't got to look no more. Let's just try to make it happen. And the good thing about Alexis is that she came in not just with like, incredible colors and visual visual stuff, but she came in with, like, actual vision. You know, there were only two boys in the book. Initially, she added a third. The gardens were, the gardens were, like, a lot less, sort of, like dark and ominous. They were just like, you know, happy gardens. And Alexa just put her style in it. And I know you'll feel this, but after heavy and because we were fucking in the pandemic, everybody was dying, and we're killing everybody with our breath. Like I wanted to take a back seat, and I did in my real life, like I kind of went in the dark for a while, but also wanted to take a back seat in terms of creativity, like I wanted to kind of be, be led. And Alexis Franklin let you know she let she led, and I and I followed. And then, you know, a few, few years later, we got a book.

Traci Thomas 7:40

I love that so much. Yeah, I always joke. I'm like, I want a boss so bad. Yo. Wanted is someone to tell me what. I don't care if you sexually harass me. I just need to be told what to do.

Kiese Laymon 7:54

That's so why did you say that shit? Because, like, I feel that more than ever, like today, like, just tell but, but then we're both kind of, we say that shit, but we both kind of hard headed. You know, I'm saying you tell us, you tell us the wrong thing. I quit. Fuck you. Bye.

Traci Thomas 8:11

That's so true. I worked, I worked a semi corporate job for a long time. I was a manager of a fitness studio, and I took a lot of shit from people, but what was nice is, when I would go home, I was like, oh, feels like your problem. Yeah, this. I'm like, I leave the garage and go in the house, and I'm like, still stressed out about what question Am I gonna ask so and so or, like, it's just, like, always all you hanging over me all the time. Yeah, I would love to have someone just take the fucking blame

Kiese Laymon 8:43

in real life. Y'all, it's a problem because I'm, I'm that time to eat, where you want to eat? Oh, I don't care time to go somewhere. What do you want to I don't care time that you want to fly. I'm just like, I'll do whatever, you know. I'm actually like, like to be led. But then when they leave me to someplace wack I get, I catch feelings, yeah,

Traci Thomas 9:02

yeah, that's me. I have a lot of opinions. Obviously, no matter what, I'm gonna have a complaint. I just, I have notes. That's, that's what we used to say, you don't have notes.

Kiese Laymon 9:12

Yes, yes.

Traci Thomas 9:15

That's like, I don't do they say that in the book world, I have notes, yes, yes, because that's what used to say in theater. Like, after you do, like, a run through or whatever. Like, when I used to choreograph, it would be like, okay, like, Okay, I have notes, you know, act one scene wide,

Kiese Laymon 9:30

and, you know, whatever in the TV and television, that's, that's their language. It don't matter how good the shit is that their job is to have notes and that can be made into,

Traci Thomas 9:40

wait. I want to ask you about this because I was, you know, Randy Winston, yeah, he and I were having this great conversation during AWP about authors being sensitive. Because he wasn't saying that. I was saying that Randy's like, such a defender and lover of authors. So everything negative that i. About to say came out of my mouth, not Randy, but I was saying how, like, I get real frustrated with authors because I think they're too precious, because I feel like the amount of time that an author spends before they get notes is detrimental to them. Like I used to when I was a dancer, you would go out on stage in a dress rehearsal and you would hear cut like you look fat and ugly in that dress. It would be like, Okay, let me just take this note, right, and move on like I understand it is, or like, you know, your account behind, or you know, my director would be like, the choreography doesn't fit. You need to change this whole number, or whatever it looks like, but you would be getting constant negative and positive feedback in real time. And so anything that I ever made in life, I always knew someone else was going to have an opinion about it, and that was just like part of the process, right? And I feel like authors have gotten soft a little bit because they don't get enough real time feedback,

Kiese Laymon 10:58

right? What do you think see? See now we gonna start doing how we do. Um, I think that that that is true, but, but I would say that the problem is, when you look at the other parts of art culture that do get notes all the time, I'm just gonna be from a writerly standpoint, that shit is weak, that shit. I mean, like, if, like, for me, I like television shows for better or worse, when there appears to be, like, a singular point of view. And of course, they got notes too, but, but, but I would just say, as a writer, if I allow my editor or great, and I will just say there are a lot of wonderful writers out there who have, like these readers that they write in after first draft, second draft, third draft. I'm not gonna say their names, but their Pulitzer Prize winners a National Book. So on one level, you're absolutely right, but on the other level, I don't want to write no editorial. I don't want 15 motherfuckers in on my books the shit that I write. You know what I'm saying, but you're right, and that is absolute preciousness, that is sensitivity, but that, to me, also is, like, I know I write with a kind of political edge. I don't want motherfuckers coming up in there trying to tell me I need to, like, take the curves out of the shit before I've even thought about how sharp the edge needs to be. So I'm saying two things at once. You're right. We are precious, and most, and a whole lot of writers in this country don't have fucking political edges. But those of us say, you know, I'm saying, but those of us who do, yo, I don't I, because I do listen. My problem is, if you start telling me some shit early on, I'm gonna listen to you and but I am someone who's easy to edit, because, like, once I give you the shit and my editor gives me some stuff, I'm not pushing back violently or anything like that. But that's because I don't been through six or seven drafts. But just working in TV and film, I just see why a lot of that. I mean, you know, it's not a writerly it's just not a writerly medium, right? Like, I thought TV and film were writerly. We talked about this before when I didn't know nothing about TV and film. It's not a writerly medium, right? It's a directorial medium. And, you know, you can argue maybe it's a performative medium, but so the shit we do was kind of just like loose directions and and they're trying to sell whatever you write. They want to sell it to white motherfuckers who drink whole D milk. Like, that's, that's the cool. Like,

Traci Thomas 12:59

I also drink whole milk. Okay, just take it. I am half white, but I felt like that was a dig at me personally, and I don't

Kiese Laymon 13:05

like what I want, what I want to what I want to sell it to the white part of you that drinks the whole D milk. And there's more. There's more to you than that. And I'm just saying when I'm writing my books, I really fucking trying to write my art to make the motherfucker who drink the white dude who doesn't drink water or drinks all the milk, like you know me, or there's other people I want to touch so I feel you. I mean, I cannot disagree with you. But I also just want to say, when you get 15 people in on something, you get an editorial, an editorial, usually, writerly wise, is gonna be less lackluster in terms of, like, dynamic shit. Sure,

Traci Thomas 13:40

you know, I hear this, yeah, this is good, this is good. And

Kiese Laymon 13:43

we sensitive, we sensitive. And I just wanna be like, Yeah, we might

Traci Thomas 13:46

think all artists are sensitive, but there's something different about writers that I just have not been able like author, writers that I have not been able to quite figure out. And my working theory is that there's just no real time feedback, and so there's just no ability to take any, like, outside criticism, because it's like, this is my thing, in a way that, like, because I'm thinking of, like, writerly mediums, and I think writing a book is really truly and I guess journalism is those are really the two. Or, like, you know, whatever, like writing in a publication are the only two. Because even if I think of like a play or a movie, like, there's so many other hands that make the thing, the thing in a way that, like, can make the thing better or it can make the thing worse, but that's not, you can't judge a play just off the page or just in performance. Like, both of the things have to be working together. And I think I don't know the collaborative piece of it, even though I know books are collaborative, they don't like to act like books are called

Kiese Laymon 14:49

because they're really they're collaborative, but they're not nearly as collaborative. I mean, it's like we need another word to describe all of the wonderful stuff you just described, versus books. Are

Traci Thomas 15:00

not like multi disciplinary. It's like you collaborate with someone on the thing that you do, but it's not like, then someone else takes it and like does pictures with it, and like brings their artistry to it. And so I feel like I don't know, maybe that's part of it is it's like you have to accept. Maybe it's not the time, maybe it's the fact that, like in other artist mediums, you have to accept other people are also right. Like you can there's not only one right answer in a play or a movie or a TV show, and like, sometimes the director wins and sometimes the writer wins, and sometimes, you know, the actor wins, or the lighting designer wins, or whatever.

Kiese Laymon 15:38

And you know what? I just really, I just always want to say this, like in my heart, like I agree with you, because, you know, I don't like to diss writers generally, like in any sort of public forum. But, you know, I save all that shit for when we talking off public. Like, I have a lot to say. I just but, because, but, but I will say, you know, we do this thing where sometimes I think we forget that our jobs as writers are to make somebody turn a page, fucking turn another page, and then tell somebody else I want you to turn the pages in this book. And so we're afraid to give this shit to people who we know aren't gonna wanna turn pages. And so that's why you get all these writers who read all the reviews and shit. And so when you see, or you know, hear you who talks honestly about books. When you see somebody, you spent two, three years, a decade, writing some shit, and somebody's like, I don't want to turn the page on this shit. You get real feelings. Get Real hurt, really hurt, yeah, but also, just think it has to do with something, yes, it is preciousness is a lack of toughness. But also, just want to say, like, I don't say anything else. To say, I just think, I just think, I think, in a lot of ways, you are right. But you know, when you go to a film, it rarely says written by whomever on the on the Billboard. Do you know what I mean? Like, the writer's name isn't even on that shit. So, like, if you selling some shit and it's just your name, I feel like you start to catch feelings when people don't feel it, you know, especially if you've never been really felt like a lot of writers don't really, haven't really got a lot of acclaim for that shit. They just, they just, they just, they get to say, I wrote 12 books and nobody read, you know. So, you know, they get to say that, I'm just saying. What an honor. A lot of people, we all hear my students nowadays, you know, the beginning of class you do icebreakers, because everybody can publish this shit now they like, I'm on my 13th book. Man, these motherfuckers turn in some shit. I'm like, what 13 books have you written? No paragraphs and this shit worth a damn.

Traci Thomas 17:31

That's why they're there. That's why they're in your class. There's some self awareness, like, I've written 13 books, but there's not one paragraph. Okay, speak. Okay, speaking of being chesty, and I remember you said this to me a long time ago, so I hope that I'm not speaking out of turn, but I think you said this publicly to me, okay, that you wanted to be a writer who wrote one great of everything, one great memoir, one great ya, one great novel. One great are you still doing that? Is that? Is this book part of that?

Kiese Laymon 18:07

Um, I think this is, I do want to be that person. I did not succeed. I think I wrote, I think I wrote one good novel. I think I wrote a good essay collection. I think I wrote a pretty good picture book. I think I wrote a great memoir. So I haven't, I haven't. I failed at what I wanted to do. I got this thing maybe coming out that I that I think could be great. But yeah, my dream was often like, I never wanted to write 1520, books, you know, like just the the kid who loved rapping and shit growing up. Like, I wanted to be that dude who could do, you know, five different genres, great. And I haven't, but I've, but I got, I got one great one.

Traci Thomas 18:48

I got one great one, yeah, you I mean, heavy

Kiese Laymon 18:51

Yeah. That's, I got one great Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, I know I got nobody talking me off. And I got one great one and other ones, you know, like, I think somewhere between above average and good. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 19:02

every time someone reads heavy for the first time, and it's like, I finally read heavy. Like, don't know what took me so long. I'm just like, you don't respect me because I've been telling you. I'm like, Oh, are we fighting? Like, what did I do that? Let you feel like you should disrespect me publicly this

Kiese Laymon 19:17

way? Thank you, though, for being one of the reasons that people read that shit. Like, people trust your taste. So yeah, thank you for pushing it. And it feels good, like, you know, seven years after that book came out. I mean, it's not like you read that and you're like, Oh, this feels so untimely, you know? I mean, I should that should still part that's just still percolating. So, yeah, but

Traci Thomas 19:37

I feel like I said this, I think on last week's episode, I feel like there's something for me personally when I read a book, because I read the book before, I think, or like, the week it came out, I had, they sent me an early finished copy. So it was like, right in that time, but before I'd ever interacted with you on the internet, like before I knew you at all, and I loved it. And I feel like that to me, is like a purity. Test in some ways, like when I read something, and I really love it before I ever because then I talk to the author, and then I'm like, Oh, I love you her cousin. But I really loved, I really loved, like, I remember being like, What the fuck is happening? This is amazing. And then I went back and I listened to it, I think before you came on the show. And I was like, oh, it's actually still really good, yeah, because that was before I reread it all. Now I reread a little bit here, but yeah, no, heavy, if you, if you're listening and you haven't read heavy, like, first of all, we're in a fight, and second of all, the only way to make up with me is to read the book and then tell me how right I was. I've yet to have anyone tell me I was wrong about heavy because sometimes people will be like, I didn't really like that. Patrick Radden, Keith book, and I'm like,

Kiese Laymon 20:51

well, that's Wow, because that, because I don't know what they talking about either.

Traci Thomas 20:55

Like someone told me it was sort of boring. One of his books was sort of boring.

Kiese Laymon 20:58

I mean that oh boy is oh boy, is beyond great at his craft, right?

Traci Thomas 21:02

And I do take it personal. People don't like Patrick rod and Keefe, but it would probably be like a violent situation if someone was like, I don't like heavy.

Kiese Laymon 21:13

You know, that's so funny to hear from you, because, like, others are supposed to say shit like this, but you know, everybody's not gonna like everything, because, you know, everything isn't for everybody, but there's some things I don't like that. I can be like that. Shit is good. I just don't right. I just don't like Right. And I'm just gonna say I might never create anything else like that, but I did that in heavy. I mean, I mean, if you look at them, if you look at that genre, and again, I'm just saying this is I'm talking to you, you look at that genre before heavy, you leave that genre after heavy. Mean, it shifted the genre, and it's gonna last forever. And, you know, I I'm just really, I'm just gonna be proud of that motherfucker until I die because I did that shit and that and that, that, and that is gonna be the hardest book I ever write. That's why this next thing I have coming out is very hard. And I think I'm close to like, getting it to be like, what I think, to consider pretty good and maybe great. But it's not as hard as that shit. It's that shit was a hard thing to pull off, you know, I mean, and I did it. And so I'm just very thankful that I could do it okay.

Traci Thomas 22:13

When you're working on a thing after, after having created a thing that you feel like is great, which I agree, is great. Are are you just, like, waiting to feel the thing that you felt with heavy like, how do you know? Because you said you feel like you have something that's kind of good and you think it could be great, how do you know, if you get it to grade, like, what is there something that clicks for you? Is there something it's like, something that Kathy says to you?

Kiese Laymon 22:36

Nah, Kathy. I mean, Kathy's hardcore. Like, low key. Like, I don't know, Kathy Belden, my editor. Like, you know, she'll tell you. She'll like, I know people who have done other kind of books, they start working with Kathy and they, like, you said earlier, they're not used to somebody being like, No, this isn't it. This is not it, you know. And it's gonna sound so corny, but I hope you feel this because of who you are and what you've been and who you are you know, like, you just know it in your body, like, like, you know for me, it's like, and for heavy I was trying to do something that I see in poetry, like I wanted every line, I wanted every single line in that book to like impact, like to hit, to be like a necessary line that I could feel in my body. Now the problem is, if you do that, you can overwhelm a text. You can overwhelm a body of every line, but still, yeah, but still, it's just like, when you know it in your body, bro, like when you know it in your body. And for me, I'm just distrusting my body. So like, when I can trust what my body feels about the art I make and the revisions I make, you know, it's like long division. That shit was all, you know, that shit sloppy, that shit is all out, like, I'm, you know, I'm trying to literally write outside the margins. And, you know, that was more of like an experiment than anything. I knew that I didn't do, like, as good as I could do in long division. I just knew it. But at the time, I was like, I can't do no better. Like, I don't know how to do it, so I had to write some other shit. And you know, when how to slowly kill yourself came out, actually, that essay, I felt that about like, this Outcast essay I wrote, I felt that about like, but it's really hard to fucking feel that about everything, because it's hard to make art. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but this next thing I'm working on, I ain't gonna try to hype it up, but, but, but it's alright. It's okay. It's okay.

Traci Thomas 24:23

I struggle with knowing if I if I have, if I did it right, like, I struggle with knowing when something is good, it's like, it's like, better than I know when something is not good to me, and I know when something is fine, good, but I I don't. I can't always differentiate between great and, like, good.

Kiese Laymon 24:43

Like, can I ask you a question? Yeah, what's the last thing you did that you knew was great?

Traci Thomas 24:49

It's hard, because with the episodes, because I'm talking to another person, I think I think, like, the Eve Ewing episode is great. Because I think Eve Ewing is great. Like, I think I. Could have asked e viewing anything, and she was gonna Eve Ewing, right? Do you know what I mean, like, no matter what I said to her, like, so, so it's, it gets tricky for me, because it's not necessarily like, a reflection of, like, great work by me. Like, I don't like, I didn't have to work hard to get an episode that I thought was really good out of her, because Eve Ewing is an exceptional guest, yeah. So I think that's also part of why I struggle to know what's good. Like, sometimes I'll put an episode out and be like, well, there's always next week, and then people will DM me like, This is amazing.

Kiese Laymon 25:38

Yo. You said that about somebody else. And then I listened to it, and I was like, wait, you told me this shit was bad, this shit is good. Oh no, this was a while ago. I don't remember what I'm not gonna talk about. We I probably shouldn't say yeah, but it was a guess. And then you were just like, oh, this is gonna be so bad, and then, and so I'm waiting for bad, you know? I mean, because, like, Listen, you know, I'm a listener. I like bad and good equally, um, but I will just say e viewing, yes, alien intellect, I don't, I don't know how you feel. I mean, but you listen to E viewing interviews, and let's be honest, they're all fucking like beyond imagination. But that one y'all did is special dog like that shit, and I don't anyway, partial part of it is you. Part of it is the way you ask questions ask also you like you allowed her space and time that often people don't That shit was just really, really phenomenal. Yeah, she was really good. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Traci Thomas 26:26

Of course, I think also, you know, I don't not to be like in therapy, but I think a misconception about me is that I am really tough on other people, but I am the toughest on me. Oh, no doubt I am the toughest on my interviews, like so you might have thought an interview was fine, but I probably hated it because there was like I missed a question, or like I let something go. But when I like, I am so much nicer to authors of books that I hate than I am to even things that I think that I did that were like, fine, but could have been better. And I think that, like, my critical impulse, my impulse to criticize everything, or like to have notes on everything, is like, deep in me. It's not just like, Oh, I do this for the podcast. Like, it's every everything, like, yeah, I have to iron my clothes. I have, like, I just used to iron your clothes?

Kiese Laymon 27:20

Yes, damn iron.

Traci Thomas 27:23

And I have a steamer. Oh, I told you this via text. I There's a few things that I do that are like my old black dad ironing my clothes. I even have an ironing board, a full ironing board, that I like pull out. But yeah, so, like, I am very critical, even of myself, and I wish that more people appreciated that, because sometimes I think people get their feelings hurt that I like, said something mean about their book, and I'm like, first of all, I was being nice, and second of all, you should hear how I talk to myself, but you know what?

Kiese Laymon 27:56

Like, I don't know if it's because, like, you know, we talk outside, of the pod, but I think that's really obvious, that you're hard on you, you know, like you do, okay?

Traci Thomas 28:05

I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean not good.

Kiese Laymon 28:09

I mean, who like, you know, like, I call you a friend, you know. I mean, like, I feel like, I feel like we are like, I feel like, I mean, you might be like, I'm not your good friend, but I feel like, I feel like, I feel like you're my good friend.

Traci Thomas 28:19

You know me, I feel like you're my good friend, but I feel like you don't think we're good friends. That's crazy.

Kiese Laymon 28:23

You would say that that's great to you first, and I've said to you shit, you only that I've owned that I've never said to anybody else and trusted that stuff with you. But I do think it is pretty apparent that you are not somebody who's like, everything I do is beautiful, but you're fuck shit, you know, and you seem like, hard as fuck on you.

Traci Thomas 28:44

Yes, I had an episode come out that I was very unhappy with, like, very unhappy with a big disappointment for me. I feel like I really failed on the episode. And I was messaging my editor, Christian about it, and I was like, it's bad. Like, it's really bad. I hate it. I'm so mad about it. Like, I just, I fucking failed, like, it's just, it's not good Christian. Was like, You're too hard on yourself. He's like, it's fine. He's like, Yeah, it's not the best episode. He's like, but it's, it's fine. I was like, Okay.

Kiese Laymon 29:14

I'm like, so especially, yeah, because, you know, like, I write in a lot of times people want me to write, like, you know, chapters and stuff for anthologies or chapters and chapter books. And it's weird, like, yeah, if I answer, you know, sometimes I'm just like, All right, I'll do it. But I'm rarely, when I do some stuff, am I going, like, Am I like, I'm gonna go hunt it, you know, I mean, like, because I don't. I only want to go 100 all the time, because you can't, you know, I want to save 100 right? So, you know, sometimes I'll be like, You sure you want something? I give you something like 75 and then, and after I do this shit, I'll be like, Man, I gave him a small whack ass shit. And then it's so weird sometimes when people be like, Oh my god, I loved your essay, but I'm like, No, you did not love my essay. Like, come on. You wanted my name in your book. Gave you my name on my book. And. I gave you a little life, but, yeah.

Traci Thomas 30:02

But sometimes, you know, I can't go 75 for most things. I can't either.

Kiese Laymon 30:07

But because it's hard for me to say no to people I have, I have learned that 75 sometimes has to be more than enough, because everybody wants something, everybody you know, everybody wants, you know, I'm, I'm blurbing like fucking 50. You know, everybody wants to blur, everybody wants a recommendation, and I want to be there, but I can't be there if I'm giving a honey to everybody, because I and I can't be there for my body and myself. You know.

Traci Thomas 30:32

I'm saying so when you are asked to do way more than me, I just, I have, I think, I think maybe, because I'm always talking about other people's stuff, that when I put something out, I'm like, it has to be good, because I've opened myself up, right? Rightfully, of course, and if I put something bad out, I would appreciate people being like, this is bad because, like, I deserve it. You know what? I mean, I do so, like, I think that's also why I'm really hard on myself, because I'm like, people are gonna hate this, like, I'm gonna let people down, or, like, you know that whole thing, yeah.

Kiese Laymon 30:57

You should have super public you should assume. I mean, that's why I couldn't do it. You should have so, I mean, even the stuff we put out is, like, so practiced. It's not public, you know, I'm saying, like, like, you know, like, I write it and then it comes out, like, two years later or five months later, you know, like, it'd be like, them looking over my shoulder while I'm writing my shit, like, I'd be on a hunted then, you know, I'm saying the right, I'm gonna be like, you know, yeah.

Traci Thomas 31:23

You can have your calligraphy.

That's true. I mean, there's a it's a blessing and a curse, though, to be like, to do it right away. Because the good thing is, it's like, next Wednesday, there's a new episode, like, this is a stinker. Like, whatever. It sucks. And then next week I like, I try never to have two back to back episodes that I don't like. Every once in a while I'll change the order, because I'm just like, I can't put two bad ones in a row.

Kiese Laymon 31:52

You sound like LeBron, because every time he has a bad game, he'd be like, You know what? You know what are you feeling? He's like, Yeah, thankfully, this is NBA. We got another game in two days. And I used to always be like, Man, that's so cliche, but it's real. Like, if you have an episode, you feel is bad. You can't sit in that shit for too long. You gotta No,

Traci Thomas 32:08

get it. I'm already working on the next episode. By the time the episode that people here comes out, I probably finished working on that at least, you know, four or five days before. But sometimes, like, I record things, like, I have an episode coming out in April that we recorded in February. Like I'm so past that episode, I don't even care. I mean, it's, I think it's a good one and whatever. But like, I'm not thinking about that, like I've read 10 books since I'm like, I've moved so far forward. But I think that that, like, I've got another game tomorrow mentality. I think I do have that from from being a sports person, because that's like, what quarterbacks always say, okay, like next week, next week in Miami, or like, next week in Pittsburgh. Yeah? Like, yeah, next week. Got to move on. But yeah, I don't know. I definitely yeah. I think I do get it from, from the sports I think so, right, okay, but I have a sports question for you. Okay, this is not anything I was planning to do. But as we're recording this, the Women's National Championship game was yesterday. And, I mean, I was not super invested in who won the game, like Don Staley, obviously would have liked that. I was devastated by what a shite game it was like, just a waste of my fucking time. I was just gonna get me out of this stinker. But I was talking to my friend Rosamund, who's a big women's basketball fan, and she was saying how she was like, crying watching Paige hug Geno and like, go down and whatever. And she was like, you know, nothing makes me more emotional than sports, like, not books, not and I was like, oh, 1,000% Nothing gets me in the chest, like a sports narrative is that, do you feel the same?

Kiese Laymon 33:47

Nothing, fam, I wish you could see me. I wish you could see the video me watching LeBron win that championship. I'm sorry. Coming back three, one against you. I'm up there next to the TV. This is before the game is over, crying, sobbing. We're we we're gonna do it. We gonna do it. We gonna do it. And the motherfucking did it. It is weird because, like, in the moment, like to me, some of that, some of those tears and some of that performance after they won, that shit seems like kind of canned. I'm like, on my knees. We did it. I never been like that. I never been like that. For nothing. I've written nothing, you know, I'm saying or anything. I've done like, Yes, I agree 100% and yesterday, you know, the scheduling was weird. So I had to do my life. I had to do like, seven, city seven, city seven, day tour, seven cities and seven places. And so the last place was Houston. And, you know, it was really great, because I got to be with my, um, the illustrator, and it was dope. But it was at the same time as a game, and in the whole week, I was like, Damn y'all. Do you think I can cancel this shit? You know, saying, Could I move my and I moved my last event. But then the game was so trash, you know, I mean that. Like, yeah, I'm a Don Staley. I mean, I love Gino too, but Don is my person. I just thought it was gonna be closer. But the flip side is like you but we also saw as UConn did that thing that, you know, you watch sports all the time, sometimes teams just come together and become and they just became dog, like they were unbeatable. And I thought when they beat UCLA, I was like, that was just UCLA. I'm like, and, oh, when they beat fucking South Carolina earlier in the year by like, I was just, I was like, Nah, they're in South Carolina. They're just good. They're just better than everybody, you know.

Traci Thomas 35:33

Well, I mean, it's definitely not seeing them play against Juju USC was real let down this turn, this women's tournament this year was sort of a letdown because of the juju injury, and then because the final, the finale was such a blowout, right? And last year's tournament with the angel Reese Caitlin Clark drama was so good, yeah, this year just felt like such a like, Wah wah wah.

Kiese Laymon 36:05

In this I mean, because that was once in a lifetime, like that thing we saw last year, because, I mean, you know, just in terms of narrative, what you never, I mean, we'll never get that, and I think that's okay to say, like, because we'll never, we'll never get that. We'll never get that in any sport, in any sport, right?

Traci Thomas 36:21

Yeah, right. And I just felt like this year at least had like, a good situation going, right, you know? And it just was like, it just, this is nothing against women's sports. This is against this year's women's tournament, sort of a dud, as much as I love the arts, right? I can't get the feelings like I get for the sport. I get the feelings, and I can get this feelings for the sports, even when it's like a sport or team that I don't really care about that much. I can, I can, like, manufacture genuine emotion off of, like, like, Cardinals, Yankees, World Series, like, I could get there, for sure, in a way that I like, I can't get there for a lot of other art.

Kiese Laymon 37:00

I just read this book called The Wilderness by Angela Ferno, and like, oh, that shit is so good. Like, I can't wait. It is, it is so it is so good that it made me, like, feel like, just joyful to be in this fucked up world right now. And and as, as, like, sort of like, exceptional is that made me feel it. It pales comparison to, like, what I'm gonna feel if Brown won another one, you know what I'm saying, which I hope, actually, that he does, because I don't like that team that they have, but, you know, I'm saying like that, but, but, but that, to me, has been the height of what I could feel artistically in a while. Like that book is just so good. It speaks to, like, so many parts of, like, my family, but, um, yeah, the sports is different, like, but it's so interesting for you. Because I would think we had this conversation before. I would think if you're based in a space that has all of these, like, real professional teams, you would feel, yeah, I guess, I guess, right. Do you think that's part of what you feel? Because what do you mean, if the Warriors win? It's partially because that has been your team, right? Like you, you grew up in the bay if, uh, if Juju would have won. It's not just you like juju, like, it's like, that's your backyard team, kind of, sort of, right?

Traci Thomas 38:13

I guess. No. I mean, so, yes, so Juju is a special case, because she went to high school, where my god daughter went to elementary school until my god daughter, who's a basketball player, put me on Juju. Back when Juju was in high school. She was like, Juju is my favorite and I'm like, What are you saying? I'm like, You're seven. What does this mean? And then I was like, Oh, I see, but, but I was, I can do it for any team. I can do it for like, like, I'll watch the Wimbledon, and I'll just be like, I guess I'm running for Medvedev. And then I'll be like, I've never loved anyone more than Medvedev. Like, you'll be, I'll be like, where's he from repairs? Like, I'm just like, Oh, he's going against Djokovic, my sworn enemy. Great. Like, the way that I think that tiafoe, which he is from America, but I'm like, Oh, I will be screaming for tiafo, and I'm like, I don't even know what tennis is.

Kiese Laymon 39:02

That is, like, that's real.

Traci Thomas 39:04

The only sport I can't really get up for is the golf, see, unless it's really good. On Sunday, I could watch the end of Sunday, if it's, like, close and get into it. But I don't. I'm not,

Kiese Laymon 39:19

yeah, like, golf, golf is a great example where I have to see the person make the last putt, then run into the arms of their partner, then have their kid grab their leg, then have a great grandmother will themselves out there, everybody Cobb it, and then I'm feeling it In my chest, you know, that's right, it's but it's not the sport at all. Like, I mean, it's not the sport. I respect golf and all that kind of but I don't, you know, I mean, like, I don't know, yeah.

Traci Thomas 39:50

Yeah, it has to be like, a close, like, it has to be down, like, you know, it's just like, one under, like, whatever. They have to be close, right? I can't, I can't turn it on Thursday. No, go. Off. Do you know what I mean, like, I'll show up Sunday late and see what's going on. Okay? It's true. I don't know, I think I but I think like sports narrative, it's, it's in the same conversation as writing, but it's just like, it's like, more like reality TV for me, right? It's like, right? There is a narrative, but it's like being written sort of as we go, Yep, and I feel like, I don't know, sports just always has a really good ending, like they've, they've, like, cracked the code on think

Kiese Laymon 40:33

about football, because I was, I was part of those, you know, I was working with cap for a while. I was part of those people that man, fuck football and but the setup of that shit, like four downs, you have three downs, you have four downs to get 10 yards. Can you do it? Like, it's always fucking dramatic, you know what? I mean, they out there trying to concuss themselves, but like, every fucking four plays, somebody's trying to stop somebody from doing something. So you just always like, you know? And yeah, as an invention, that shit is so good, you know.

Traci Thomas 41:03

Yeah, so good. Okay, we're gonna talk about something else. We're gonna talk about how to be a human being, okay, any insight, any wisdom, I think the question on everyone's heart, at least, like, sort of in the stacks community that I've talked to, like, in the discord and in the Patreon and all of that is like, what are we supposed to be doing? Like, how are we supposed to be alive? I see so many people on like, threads being like, I can't post about books today. I'm so mad about blah, blah, blah, and like, I don't know. I get I totally I get it, I get those feelings, but I'm also just like, how do we remain human? Do can we?

Kiese Laymon 41:52

Like, what are we that's so interesting because, you know, like, again, I spent that this last week talking to grown ups, but also talking to, like, fourth graders, because that that's who, that's who, like this book I wrote is really for and just like when I'm in these room with these fourth graders, you know, it's like all the sentimental shit that people talk about, like, you know, I was in DC, this kid comes up to me after we do a little talk about summer's imagination. He comes up, he has this little pin asking me to sign his book, and he's crying, but he's happy crying. And I was like, what's wrong? You okay? You know, shit, it's 2025, you can't put your you can't, you can't, like, put your hand on the kid and be like, are you all right? Like, and the teacher was like, it's his name. I said, what you mean? He's like, my name Akil. And like, you know, on a second page, third page of the book, it's like, whether his name was Damon Stephan or kill we called him country. That motherfucker was so well, we talked about about sports just now, he felt that from seeing his name in a book dog, because he never seen a keel in a book. What does that mean? That means to me. That also means the next day I'm in Jackson, 91 year old dude. He was my mother's teacher, Mr. Holmes. He was like, he just want you know, you know this motherfucker fault for us to have water, this motherfucker fault for us have everything. He's like, I never seen this. The worst shit I seen in my life. This motherfucking 91 he couldn't do nothing that white people could do for most of his life. And he says, This is the worst. So I'm just like, how do you hold those two together? Like, how is this kid living the life where he doesn't have any idea about the lack of Well, I don't know what idea he has about the lack of safety that we all, I think, feel right now, but I think in that classroom, in that space, because of his wonderful teacher and his friends, he felt, that's what I'm trying to say in the book. He felt this kind of safeness that was going to maybe prepare him for whatever the fuck shit is going on outside the classroom. But the fuck shit going on outside the classroom, we just need to say it is one of one it this ain't never like bruh, don't tell me this shit has happened before, because all of the shit that our people worked to build to make sure that me and you could be doing this shit and walking fucking going to pee what we wanted to shit. Motherfuckers could have abortions. These motherfuckers like in a room, nope, nope, nope. Just like that. No shit is gone like so I'm saying I think we have to hold on to one another. Obviously, I think we have to figure out new ways to make love. I'm not talking about sex. We have to find new ways to make love. And to me, we have to find new ways to like, ritualize safeness. Because the world, like Baldwin said, like Morrison said, like every motherfucking writer worth the damn set, safety is a motherfucking illusion. Fascist run this motherfucking world. What you gonna do? We gonna organize, we gonna fight. But without that, like that safeness at the core, it's gonna be we gonna lose. And I just think, and I don't know how to do it, but I do know that that's what we have to do. Like you have to hold on to like the people you, you call home, and the people who out there, who don't have you have to find a way to share with those people. But like, safeness cannot be contingent on the lack of safety in our on Earth. It just cannot. Because if you lose that, that's and our hearts are broken, but then you lose everything. You die. Everybody go. Everybody goes. But like in that classroom with those kids for. It's wild to say this, but you can, you can feel a kind of safeness. And that's a that's a classroom. And also, I know like that is a faction of factors in classroom, sadly, yeah, but those kids still felt safe, you know? What do you think?

Traci Thomas 45:14

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, as I was rereading the book in preparation for this interview, which thank you for writing a children's books. I didn't have to reread a really long book because I'm struggling these days. I did. I pulled out safeness sounded like love. And I also pulled out I love you and I'm afraid, and I feel like those are that's sort of towards the end of the books. Spoiler alert, people at home. But I mean, those were the things that like jump out at me from the book, right? Like that felt like pressure to this moment. Felt connected to, I think, what I'm feeling and what everyone, not everyone, what a lot of people who I care about are feeling is like the fear and the safety, but I don't have good answers. I feel like I've been really sort of stunted in this moment that a lot of the things that I've held close feel inadequate or just wrong miscalculations, misjudgments, misunderstandings, and so that's challenging too, yeah, and also, I mean, you know, not to go back to this, but I do think sometimes I feel on a really Personal and specific to me level, I feel really exposed in moments like this, because I am out here every single week talking into a microphone and that I have a responsibility, that which I have no problem having a responsibility. I hate when people are like, I did not sign up to be a role model. I'm like, Okay, well, like, Okay, you're fucking you play Little Mermaid. Like, yes, you did. It's not the responsibility. It's that I feel, I feel inadequate in these moments, and that I still have to show up. And I think that's been really sort of challenging. So I don't know, I don't know that I feel like I've been remaining human. I sort of feel like I've been a robot recently, and like in the past, I maybe had, have been more vocal about certain things, and in this moment, I just have sort of like shut down in some ways, which is, like, not great for me, like evaluating my performance as the hyper critical person that I am, right, but that's how I would evaluate so I don't know that I feel like I'm remaining human, or that I have a good answer at all.

Kiese Laymon 47:41

And I just want to say also, Traci is like, like, when you say that, I feel like, like, I wonder, how, how do you say this? Like, like, I don't take for granted that like, you are safe because of what you put out in the world. Do you know what I'm saying that I think somebody's outside your house about to snatch you up, but, but, but it, but it is not, it is not something that I necessarily like discredit, meaning what people are like, you know, be careful. They're gonna come for the writers. Motherfucker, they always come for the writers. They've been coming for the writers. You know what I mean, like, those journalists, if they kill their fucking like, you know, in Gaza, those were writers. You know what I mean. Like, if you think ta nehisi can put out the message. Put out the fucking let that that piece that, at the time, I thought was off about Trump being the first white supremacist president of some shit. If you think this motherfucker is safe, you're nuts. You're You're fucking I'm a teacher. We have ice training that we if meaning we have been trained. If they come into your classroom with this kind of warrant, you have to say no. If they come into the classroom with this kind of warrant, you have to say yes. Then we had ice training for the fourth they came into classrooms to get us so they come into your classroom to get you in front of your students. Make sure your students don't do that, especially if your students have have visas, like that's where we are, you know, job and, you know, there's a lot of shit a lot of us don't talk about publicly. But I think that about publicly, but I think that partially has helped us get where we are. There's motherfuckers in New Orleans who have been talked to by the FBI for reading how to slowly kill yourself. Others publicly, reading how to slowly kill yourself, and others publicly, FBI came to their house and talked to them and went through their shit for reading that shit publicly. So I'm saying all that to say somehow, like I'm just somebody who, like, clarity is more important to me than fantasy. So I create fantasy as an artist. But like, do like, this notion of like, they comment, oh, they hear, yeah, it doesn't mean they can swoop us all up at one time, but there's so many different ways to give people. And they trying to do all they're trying to get us in every which way they can. And they don't give up. You know, everybody's like the stock market, all he cares about is this motherfucker. Don't give a fuck about nothing but hurting people.

Traci Thomas 49:48

You know, hurting people hurting it's so hard. It's so hard, as a lover of narrative and storytelling, to fully grasp what's going on, because, like, if you wrote a character. Like Trump, people would be like, well, the motivation isn't clear. Why would he take the stock market? Why would he, you know, it's like this per it's hard to understand what is going on here, because I cannot grasp the narrative. Because being like this character is motivated by hating people. Your teacher would be like, Okay, babe, dig a little deeper, right? Like, like you. If someone brought you a story about Trump and was like, He's gonna ruin everything just because he can, you would be like, Okay, I love where you're going. Let's, let's flesh it out more specifically. What is he gonna do? Literally, he's like, like you would if someone was like, He's gonna tank the stock market. He's gonna get rid of abortion, but he's also gonna get rid of park rangers. You're like, okay, that doesn't fit that. One feels a bridge too far, right? And so I think that's also what's hard for me, is i, and this comes from me, a person who has a deep obsession with World War Two. I love it. I love a Nazi nonfiction. I love, I love to read it, and even I am like that was clear, that narrative arc felt very clear. And maybe because we're living in it, it's harder for me to see the full picture clearly, yeah, and maybe that's why I'm struggling, because it's easy for me to go from World War One to Auschwitz, I can get there. It's not pleasant, but I feel like I can follow that arc. I can follow the chips falling into place. But again, maybe that's because someone did it for me, and I just read it already, and now I'm trying to put it all together myself, or we're trying to put it all together ourselves. But I don't know this Trump as a character is, he's not well written. I would give him two stars.

Kiese Laymon 51:50

Compare Trump to Thanos. You watch those Marvel you knows was his character who, at the end of the day was like, We got to get rid of half the motherfuckers on Earth, because human beings have fucked over each other. So pretty much, if he snaps his finger, half the motherfuckers on Earth disappear, some dastardly shit. But you have to write, you know, like you can kind of feel Thanos a little bit, you know, I'm saying, Yeah, this motherfucker Trump.

He, I mean, and again, it is not him as much as the fact that he did not elect himself, right?

Yes, that's what I was just gonna say, yeah, yeah. He I believe they cheated because they cheaters. I believe they lied because they lied. But the fact that all these motherfuckers who watched Sesame Street voted for this motherfucker, how the fuck do you watch Sesame Street? How did you grow up on? How did we grow up on the same shit? Share, don't tell, don't lie. If you have a lot of something, don't hurt the least of these, whether you're motherfucking Die Hard Christian, Muslim, fucking, you know, like no religion, the base shit. I thought we were all supposed to believe. And again, my friends would say, fam in Empire, people have always been doing this. And I feel you. Yes, you're right. This is another level. Fuck you. You ain't gonna tell me this is the same saying Biden was a motherfucking war criminal as Obama was, and this war criminal is worse.

Traci Thomas 53:09

Right, right? Yes, I think that's I think there's levels to it. I think I when you were saying he didn't elect himself, I was actually thinking more of like the rich, powerful Trump supporters, not the everyday voter people, because, like, whatever, they were duped. Like, you know, right? They were duped. We were, you know, we were. They were sold a bill, bill of goods. I don't really care about their remorse or whatever people regret their vote, but I'm just like the people who pull the levers of power, all the fancy, rich people who understand the economy. Allegedly, you all just let him do this tariff shit. And nobody was like, no Donald, like, I'm pulling my money. Or like, no Donald, don't do it because it's not helping them either. That's the piece. Like, if you could make the logical argument for me, that's like, okay, these tariffs are gonna make Mark Zuckerberg richer, I would be like, Okay, great. I don't know that. I mean, I don't, I don't understand Terry. I don't understand any of this shit. So fucking for real, for real. I don't know. I heard Michael Harriet try to explain it on higher learning, and I was like, This is as close as I'm getting to understanding this. And I just was like, scratching the surface, but I just feel like, aren't there rich, powerful people who own like Ford Motors, who are like this actually isn't good for us either, who are calling him being like Donald don't do it and he doesn't care about that's the piece of that's the part of it that is hard for me to understand. Is it's like the rich, powerful people who support him are being hurt also by him, and usually in politics, the people who support you are getting something good out of the deal, like the fact that you're you're losing your money, and you don't have rights, and your family doesn't have the same rights that my family doesn't have now, like, we're all like, he's not just shitting on black people or brown people. He's really shitting on everybody. And everyone's like, no, it's fine.

Kiese Laymon 55:00

And, man, you are you preaching? Because you know this is, this is, like, a super, super duper violent nation. Like, our dreams are violent, like, like, like, we cast violence out on like, it like, we didn't give a fuck that motherfucking like Israel were like, like, shooting holes in babies to get to the bad guys, the rich people. You talking about, the poor people. You talk people don't give a fuck. We so I don't, I don't believe in guns, right? Because when I was a young motherfucker, I had guns, and I used guns. If I had a gun, right now, I don't think good things would happen. So I will never have a gun. But this country believes in violence. That's also willing wild to me. Y'all motherfuckers believe in violence. This man is doing the most violent shit ever to you. He killed your one motherfucking grandparents with lies, I think, with COVID, he doing he doesn't give a fuck. It ain't nobody. I'm not I'm not promoting violence. I'm asking the question, what would this motherfucker have to do for you to use violence to get him up out of there because you've used violence to kill babies who ain't done shit in this country and abroad. That's, that's what I don't so it's the same kind of question you're asking. But at that point you have to be like, then we are, we are necessarily part of, like, this larger, diabolical, like, absolutely destructive, violent thing that just has a face of Trump. Because we know we kill people who we really want to kill, though, like, stop people who we really want to stop. That's the truth. Really rich motherfuckers like, stop people who they really want to stop. Why you don't want to stop this motherfucker? It's because you must something, something something something, there's something we're not saying, and I'm not going to say it on a podcast, but like, I think we just have to describe what we see. And what we see is someone who, who will go down as you and I both knew, killing everything alive, yeah, and we are letting him. And that's Wow, that's Wow. That's Wow.

Traci Thomas 57:02

It is. And it feels like, did you? Did you read the Omar El Akkad book One Day Everyone Will Have Always Been This. I mean, I think that book is so brilliant, and I think you know that this is what he's grappling with, right? It's like being a part of Empire, but like not wanting to be a part of Empire, but also like not not running part of because it's my empire, right? Like, like, I'm rooting for tiafo because he's from America, like, period, right? So, like, there's some pride in being from this place, but it's like, I want to get off this ride, but also it's the only ride I have, and I don't really want to walk, you know? And that's like, feeling, I don't know, feeling so torn, and yes, like I make my calls to my representatives. You know, I did not go to that March, right? Sorry, right. I wasn't going to, hands off. I went to the women's march. Okay? I did it. I'm black. I don't have to sort of justification. But thank you for people who went. I guess. Do you see there was no arrests at that?

Kiese Laymon 58:06

Are you serious? Uh huh, there were no arrests.

Traci Thomas 58:10

That was the reporting. There were no arrests. And it sort of told me everything I felt like I needed to know. Really interesting. I did not know that. Anything else we want to say before we go, I'm just love talking to you.

Kiese Laymon 58:20

Thank you. I always feel like it's just you and I talking. If we said anything, it's gonna get us, like, fucked up. Let me know.

Traci Thomas 58:28

But I'm gonna get in trouble before we will, don't I'm really thankful that we that we talked.

Kiese Laymon 58:31

And if your people listen, and you know some young people, third fourth graders, second graders, or you just will know parts of yourself that want to, you know, think about summers and think about like, safety and think about possibilities different kinds of love. Please get city, Summer, country summer. That's it.

Traci Thomas 58:51

You did a good job. I was going to do that for you, but, oh, okay, did it better than me? I usually like to tell people to get the book by the end of the interview, but, you know, I feel sort of bad that we left. We're leaving you all on sort of a downer. No, we have no solutions for you.

Kiese Laymon 59:05

No, be Yeah. I mean, we don't, other than try to try to try to be better at loving the people you say you love. That's not concrete, but it is.

Traci Thomas 59:12

It is, yeah, I that's, that's a good way to end, yeah, um, but yeah, get city cuts, City Country, summer country. Get city summer, country, summer. Wherever you got your books, it's approved by me. It's also mini stacks approved if, in case anybody cares. Even though I don't think they really understand it, I think they just really love the pictures. Yes, yes. The pictures are just so beautiful. The Little there's like, this one spread where it's like one little boy is staring at you, and then there's on the next page, there's two little boys staring at you, and it's just so sweet. Every time I get to that page, I'm just like, I love these boys. They're so cute. But yeah, you can get the book anywhere. Oh, and all of you, all of my lovely library people, make sure your library has this book. I know, with kids books, sometimes it takes a little longer, or people don't. Request it right away or they don't know about it. But I was just in the library with the minis this weekend, and we took out like, 10 books. I had never heard of a single one of the books we took out just grab things off the shelf. So, if you're a library family, make sure your library has the book too, so that you can take it home, and so that other kids can maybe just start snatching things off the shelf. Because we took, they took off, like, 30 books, and I was trying to, like, stack them and put them back. Then I was like, okay, but we got to take a lot of these, because I don't want to be like an embarrassing mom who just, like, throw books everywhere. So we took a lot, I don't know, Octa corn. It's about an octopus unicorn. No, never heard of Mom. Good crab cake. It's about a crab who makes cakes. Actually, crab cakes was really good. It's like, it's like, about this ocean and all the animals, like snapper eats and eats and eats, and scallop does loop to loop, and crab bakes cakes. And then there's like, an event that happens, and it's that the humans dump a bunch of trash into the ocean, and it's really dirty, and all the other animals freeze. But crab still bakes a cake, and the cake brings all the animals back together, and then they organize to get rid of the trash. And I was like, this is incredible. It's amazing. Crab Cakes is what it's called. I don't know who wrote it, but it's about a crab who bakes cakes. But also it's not as good as city summer, country summer, but it is for it's more for mini stacks, appropriate age. Anyways, you're the best. I'm obsessed with you. I love you dearly. I'm still not our cousins and friends.

Kiese Laymon 1:01:26

We are cousins. I'm glad. I'm glad we can find I thought we already knew, but we need to officially say it in public

Traci Thomas 1:01:31

every time we have to officially say it, just in case anything's changed.

Kiese Laymon 1:01:35

Yes, and we cousins forever. So don't watch your mouth. You come talk to me. Don't talk to me better, but my cousin, no,

Traci Thomas 1:01:42

don't they will. Don't worry. Okay, everybody else, we will see you in the Stacks.