Unabridged: Let’s Never Talk About These Oscars Again with Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford
The 98th Academy Awards ceremony was this past Sunday, and we’ve got a lot to talk about. Today, I’m joined by Vibe Check co-hosts and friends of the pod, Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford, to recap all things Oscars, discussing everything from our Timothée Chalamet burnout to why people pitted Sinners and One Battle After Another against each other, and a whole lot more. This is a follow-up to my pre-Oscars chat with Saeed and Zach last week on Vibe Check—you can listen to that episode here.
TRANSCRIPT
Traci Thomas 0:00
Hey everybody, it's Traci, host of the stacks, and you're listening to another episode of the stacks unabridged, our Patreon and sub stack exclusive bonus episode today. I'm joined by two friends of the show, Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford, hosts of the vibe check podcast, one of my absolute favorites, and we are reunited to talk about this year's Oscars. We're talking Timmy. We're obviously talking Michael B Jordan, and we're talking about one battle after another versus sinners. All right, that's enough. Let's get into my conversation with Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford about the 98th Academy Awards.
All right, everybody, welcome to another episode of the stacks unabridged, our exclusive Patreon sub stack content bonus episode for the month. I am joined today by two ladies that I love so much. We have been talking Oscars together since kind of the summer, since one battle after another came out, the three of us have been texting, voice memoing, chatting about this movie, and as it spirals about the broader Oscars, I am joined by the ladies of vibe check, Zach Stafford and Saeed Jones. Welcome to the stacks unabridged.
Saeed Jones 1:36
It was like we're gonna get into I couldn't even bring myself to actually watch the entire broadcast of the Oscar Oscars. I was like, I would dip in and out. I was watching it online. Because I was just like, it's been so long we've been we've been in this Oscar season for like, four years.
Zach Stafford 1:57
And Traci, I want to say thank you, because I was mad at the heated rivalry guys last night, because I thought they had had me by the chokehold for too long. But no, it's the Oscars, because they have been the Oscars have been going on longer than those two have been gay. I have been thinking about this Oscar campaign for so long, and they stepped into it in like October. So No, no, it's the Oscars, one battle after another, and Timmy Chalamet and sort of campaigning over a year ago, when Marty supreme campaign began, like, in the wake of what was the dune like, dune ended, and then this
Traci Thomas 2:29
Wasn't he in something? No, he also was in that Bob Dylan thing or something last year
Saeed Jones 2:34
That's what I realized, and I know we're going to talk about Timothee Chardonnay in a second, but I was reading an article in vulture that's kind of like the like, what went wrong? And it was like everything. But they pointed out that Timothy has essentially been doing, if not, Oscar campaigning, you know, PR campaigning, since 2023 when Wonka came out. Because it's like Wonka Dune the Bob Dylan film, which was an Oscar campaign, and it did get a bunch of Oscar nominations, didn't win any, and then he went right into Marty Supreme. And so what would it probably just, it's like, it's too much. We're tired. He's tired.
Traci Thomas 3:13
Okay, I definitely want to do a Timmy postmortem here, for sure. But before we even Well, I mean, I think it's important to remember sinners came out. I believe in April of 2025 we are two weeks away from April 2026 and when that movie hit, that is when the Oscar season, for me started. People started talking about it. So we really are at a year almost of the Oscars, partially because of the Olympics. They pushed everything back so they had the Super Bowl, and then the Olympics kind of screws it up. It makes the Oscars late. First and foremost, the Oscars needs to just pick a weekend and say, I don't care what happens. This is our day. It could be it could be Easter, it could be Super Bowl Sunday. I don't care. Just pick your day and stick with it. Because some years it's in February, and some this year, it's damn near June, and I'm just over that.
Saeed Jones 4:09
Yeah, there was a moment I realized I was like, Oh yeah, because, as I've said, sinners is, to this day, actually the only movie in two school years at Harvard that students have proactively wanted to talk to me about. They came to class being like, Saeed can we talk about this? They were like, staying after, wanting to talk about this. And then I realized, I was like, Wait, it wasn't this year, students, it was last year. Because, to your point, Traci, it was April of 2025.
Traci Thomas 4:40
Yeah, I know it's crazy
Zach Stafford 4:41
it's also become a it's become a thing because, you know, as Oscar season gets so protracted, you know, there is this game of what film can be released right at the start of the season that has the legs to run the longest race. And sinners was one of those movies that, when it first was being marketed, you didn't know what it was. I go to the theaters once a week. Famously, we talk about some of the show said, doesn't go to theaters very much. I go way too much, maybe. And I was like, What is this movie with Michael B Jordan? Is this a vampire movie? Is it slavery movie? What is this? And finally, they got the marketing down right, maybe week two of the movies released as all like kind of the culture caught up to it. And it felt like they were trying to redo everything everywhere all at once. And I remember back then being like, will this last a year of marketing, and it didn't like it did disappear for a while, and then suddenly this last month, thank you Bafta's racism, it really skyrocketed back. And now here we are in a world in which it is at the top of the world, even though we didn't win Best Picture, but it is the top of our minds today. Yeah, in the wake of the awards.
Traci Thomas 5:42
I am stunned that it even was like, so close to the Oscars needs to release the final voting. I need to know how close. I need to know, like, was it?
Saeed Jones 5:53
I feel like it was neck and neck.
Traci Thomas 5:54
That's how I feel in like, the cultural like, that's what it feels like. But I wonder how close it really is, because I do feel like when one battle after another came out all the like white film bro-ey people, and even, like some black people were like, this movie is a great this movie's so great. Blah, blah, blah. And then I feel like in the last few months, there's been, like, a huge push culturally, like, from the public towards sinners, similar to how it was when sinners first came out. And so I just, I really, I want, you know, come on, Academy, give us something here, people,
Zach Stafford 6:29
yeah, let's see the numbers.
Saeed Jones 6:30
I mean, I think the numbers should always be released, yeah. And actually, I think it would be smart for the Academy from a marketing perspective, if, like, if we just knew, like, a month after the awards, all of it would be released, because they would get us talking about it all over again. It only makes the Oscars more important and more fascinating. And yeah, and I mean, you know, I, Traci and I, you know, you and I have talked about judging Book Awards and that, as it turns out, there are many different frameworks that judges and juries and, of course, the academy you're talking about like hundreds of people, maybe even 1000s, bring to their decisions. But I think what we saw with sinners and one battle after another in particular, is that I think one battle after another works best for people who viewed it in a vacuum. They're not interested in the history of the academy. They're not interested in who's won, what, when, where that. They're just like, I really like this director, you know, and I really liked this film. That's it. That's the beginning and the end. And I think sinners has that. I mean, of course, people adore Ryan Coogler, rightfully so. People adore the film rightfully so, and I'm certainly one of them. But I think for people who like with sinners, there's a holistic we're thinking about the history of the academy. We're thinking about the nature of race. We're thinking of da da da, that's how you end up with how things kind of, I think, panned out, which is to say, not only did one battle after another win Best Director, Best Picture and several other awards, only white people won for one battle after another. Like the issue we've been debating about the politics of the film are reiterated through who was celebrated, and, similarly, with, in some ways, with, with sinners as well.
Traci Thomas 8:30
Okay, so before we sort of dive into some of the things that I want to talk about, because that I want to spend a good chunk of time later on talking about, sort of the Paul Thomas Anderson versus Ryan Coogler leadership model and style. I think it was pretty I think what was said by each of them at the award show last night spoke volumes. So I want to talk about that, and I think it's tied to what you're saying. I definitely want to spend some time talking about just like, kind of like, maybe highlights and maybe some like, random moments. Saeed you won't be able to weigh in because you didn't watch everything. How much
Saeed Jones 9:13
I was out. I was by Barbra Streisand. I was getting it from blue sky. And I was like, see, that's exactly why
Zach Stafford 9:21
But Robert Redford looks so good in that memoriam.
Traci Thomas 9:24
Has he ever not looked so good in his life. He just can get it. Stays, getting it, getting it from the grave, but from the grave, broadly, broadly for me, at least, I'll speak for myself, the moment of the night is Michael B Jordan's win. To me, that is the only was, the only true surprise for the night. For me, I think maybe Autumn's win was what I had hoped for and what I thought was the best cinematography. But I wasn't surprised, because it felt correct. Michael B Jordan felt correct, but I just thought there was no chance for him.
Zach Stafford 10:06
Well, I would like to just applaud all of us on this zoom that that we are gathered on because we reviewed the data today. Saeed and I on a call earlier today, and as folks know, we did a an episode a week ago. No, we go weeks ago, by the way, weeks ago to us, February. We weeks ago in February, we made Oscar's predictions. And guess what, friends, we were correct across the board. We got Michael every single step. We got Michael B right. We said, We think if it's not Tim That's the only one we didn't get right. We said, Timothy Chalamet will probably go, but if he doesn't, it's Michael B. Michael B deserves it, and that would be the surprise if it happens and it went exactly how we thought
Saeed Jones 10:48
We said we wanted Teyana Taylor to win, but I felt that Amy Madigan
Speaker 1 10:55
At even our Instagram, it even shows in our group chat. It's like Amy Madigan would be so fun, but it's gonna be Teyana Taylor, yeah. So we were in that tension consistently a month ago, before all the drama and but you're right, the very clear surprise, and at the Oscars party I was at, I was at our friend Sam Sanders house, and I was playing with the remote because he had the TV too damn low. And I was like, Girl, let's turn this up. I can't hear people because we were being too loud. And so I grabbed the remote and turned the TV off on accident. And so right as they were about to announce, so everyone was like fumbling, and we turn it on, and it came back on right as they said. Michael B Jordan, perfect theater, by the way, perfect moment. It was. It really raised the stakes, and we all were not expecting it. And it made us even more excited, because we didn't expect his name to be called. And it happened, and we were crying and screaming, and the theater was as well, and people all jumped up, and I'd never seen a win, so celebrate it, right? It felt like the whole theater was like, What is going on here? And Saeed you took to blue sky with swiftness.
Saeed Jones 11:55
I I texted friends. I'll do this about all kinds of things. I'm just like, I'm out, but text me if something happens. But fortunately, because, I mean, that's the thing. I mean it really, it does speak to, you know, it's increasingly a rarefied event where, like a live television event, you don't have to be watching it to watch it, right? And blue sky really was. I was not divorced, divorced from the experience, because I wasn't watching it visually. Like, yeah, so Mike, I ended up texting some friends who were watching before they saw it. I think they were like, in the kitchen getting snacks or something. I'm like, Michael B Jordan, Michael, it was incredible and beautiful. As someone who, you know, started watching the wire while it was still airing. Like, I think of watching the wire in college was the beginning of me taking television serious, right, the storytelling medium and and so to have kind of grown up with him, and through, you know, through the Creed movies, he's been giving incredible performances, and somehow has managed, at least publicly, not to become a monster in the process. Yeah, it was beautiful. And of course, it means even more when you've just kind of given up hope it did not feel that it was going to be a great night for that was not the vibe. I wasn't liking the bits. I was like, Conan, love you, but not that much. And then for me, I was like, when Delroy lindo didn't win for Best Supporting Actor, it kind of broke my heart. And for to go to Sean Penn, y'all know how I feel about him, you know how I feel about the character in film, but also that he didn't even show up. Like, what a like, insult to injury. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I don't even need this one. Clearly, it means so much to the other nominees. That was me being like, you know what Saeed? you don't have to watch this. What I will say, it's not on the scale of Michael B Jordan winning. This is the first time I'm saying this because I was locked in for sinners. So I was, I was like, hold the line if you're still in line for sinners. Yes, stay in line for sinners. Is how I've been. I love Ruth e Carter, I have two copies of her coffee table book of her designs. I'm such a fan of her artistry. I wanted Frankenstein to win for costume design. Oh, those costumes. Mia Goss, the mother and the contemporary, oh my gosh, it was so beautiful. And it felt like all of the kind of artsy designs went to Frankenstein, which I'm cool with.
Traci Thomas 14:31
So I Okay, just quickly about Frankenstein. I hated that movie. I don't care. But I also
Zach Stafford 14:38
Wait, Traci, I love you. "I hated that movie. I don't care."
Traci Thomas 14:42
It's been documented because we did the book on my book club. So I talked about this. I didn't like the movie. He said it was based off the 1818, version. It was based off his own version. And that's fine, but don't try to act like this is based off Mary Shelley, because you just like, did your own thing, which, like, is your right
Zach Stafford 14:57
Isn't he just obsessed with, yes, he just thinks it's Jesus, right?
Traci Thomas 14:57
He's obsessed with the movie, the first Frankenstein movie, that's like, what it was anyways.
Saeed Jones 15:03
And here I come being literally beautiful gowns.
Traci Thomas 15:06
Yes, gowns, beautiful gowns. But I don't like his visual aesthetic. Like, to me, that's just not something I respond to that like, over saturation and like, like, that's
Saeed Jones 15:18
Guillermo del Toro. Oh, but see, that's my thing, it's very Alexander McQueen, 2005
Traci Thomas 15:25
It's just like, this is like, a matter of taste. I don't think that it's bad. I just don't like it. I don't respond to it. It's just not my thing.
Saeed Jones 15:31
That's like me with Wes Anderson, the films are well made, but that aesthetic at this point is like, nails on the chalkboard to me.
Traci Thomas 15:40
that's how I feel about Guillermo del Toro. But the Michael B Jordan thing that I want to say is that, so my real, like true entry point to him was Friday Night Lights Vince forever
Zach Stafford 15:53
Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it.
Saeed Jones 15:56
Really grown up is He? Is this the first of an Oscar when, like, of millennial, where we literally have, because now we're high school, right?
Zach Stafford 16:05
Wow, Emma Stone would be similarly situated, but, yeah, but
Traci Thomas 16:09
I didn't grow up with she. She was famous, like she was Oscar. She did whatever bloody a or whatever that was called, and then she did things and was, like, always in Oscar contention. I feel like Michael B Jordan. Michael B Jordan did soap operas before I knew who he was. Like, he's had a whole career from like
Saeed Jones 16:29
and TV like that, that weekly,
Zach Stafford 16:33
You're right, because to get to the point that you're you're making right now, that's how my brain's processing it. Because I think of the white girls. Because, you know, king of white girls, next effort, Kirsten Dunst, Oscar nominee. Youngest was a child nominee and winner. Maybe was a winner. Nominee because she was in interview with her vampire. Then she did a bunch. She was in so many movies. So I mean, she's like, she's a teen icon. Bring it on. But like, she wasn't a television actor. She did not have to, like hustle. Michael was on Friday Night Lights was a hustle, like he was doing a lot of thing
Traci Thomas 17:06
he was doing TV when people weren't doing TV, right? Exactly, when doing TV was, like, lesser than
Saeed Jones 17:13
he wasn't doing the limited series.
Traci Thomas 17:15
No, he was not with Nicole kidden every month a different murder by her husband, but my, my true Michael B Jordan, is his portrayal of Oscar Grant and Fruitvale Station. As you all know, I am from Oakland. I was out that New Year's Eve in San Francisco. I rode Bart, which is our rapid transit bay area rapid transit, which is where Oscar Grant was killed, at the BART station, at Fruitvale Station, but I rode that train. I remember seeing that movie when it came out. I have many friends in common with Ryan Coogler. He went to, like, one of our rival, rival Catholic high schools, and seeing Michael B Jordan in that I was like, oh, generational talent, like I knew in that moment, and I worried that the arc of his career and his stardom was take was going to take him away from, like, this performance that I had found to be just so incredible and so, like, he just was so Oakland in that movie. And he's not from Oakland, and I just like to me to see him up there, like still working with Ryan and like getting to be a mega star and getting that accolade just felt so so so special, because, like, he really is an actor, has made a career of being an actor, and for the most part, has gone totally uncelebrated on the level that other actors with his like, you know, filmography get. And I felt like it was really exemplified to me, what a stand up guy he is, and, like, how beloved he actually is, not only when everybody cheered when he won, but also in the clip that's come out of him and Leo hugging Leonardo DiCaprio hugging afterwards. And he's like, I don't know if he's crying, but he's like, got his head on his shoulder, and the way, like Benicio Del Toro comes over and kisses his hand. And my big thing with Timmy, and it's been my thing with Timmy from the beginning, is, I know Timmy is a bad hang. I know he's not fun. I know people don't like him. You can look at him and you can tell he doesn't have any famous friends. And famous people love to have famous friends. That's the whole thing. Like it is very much clear to me that he is not fucked with by anybody. And I felt like, and this is sort of this bigger point that I want to get to, is that last night was a lot about community versus the self. And I feel like Michael B Jordan is a representation, or representative of, like, Team community. He's risen up through the ranks, doing the work, making relationships that have lasted, you know, decades. Him and ran cooler have been working together for at least a decade by now, I think, or close to it, like he's just, I just think, like it was so beautiful to see. Be an actor, be celebrated so like full chestedly by a room full of actors like and performers
Saeed Jones 20:11
You're so right
Zach Stafford 20:12
To add to all of this, because everything you're saying is so right. Something that's really special about Michael B Jordan is that he is not technically trained in the ways in which we've seen artists like so many prestigious black artists who are trained, especially British black artists like he isn't some formally trained artist that has cut his teeth in theater or whatever, and so he's had to learn in public, in TV, by taking on movies. And he goes head to head with, you know, Angela Bassett, or, you know, the cast of sinners are some of the best black actors working, and he is having to figure it out in real time, and never looks away from it. Really leans into every challenge, and he does it with so much grace and humility and understanding of the lineage he's walking in. And in his speech, he said, I feel you all wanting me to win at home, and that's something Paul Thomas Anderson never would even consider saying. It's something that Timothy Chalamet would never consider, ever fucking saying, which has so much about white masculinity that they think they are singular. They think they arrive on their own two feet to every award that they win. And yet black people, women, women of color, always one of the first few words they say, we saw last night with the winner of cinematography, they immediately are like, I did this not alone. I did this with you all, with everyone here. And it's that humility that is needed in those moments, because we don't do it alone. We have to do it in community, and that's how you have loved in these moments. So Michael B Jordan is such an avatar of that, and that's why we do love him, and we love seeing him win, and that's why everyone was dancing on Timothy Chalamet's loss because he did this in the worst way possible. He did it so smugly and so much in a way that was so, like, isolating and so like, just like it just to your point, he has no friends, and it shows I did not want him to win.
Traci Thomas 20:59
I don't begrudge Timothy Chalamet for wanting to be the best. I don't know if you remember his sag speech last year, but he talked about when he won. He talked about, like, I want to be the Michael Jordan of acting, and I want to be the best of that, like, yeah, and I don't, I don't begrudge that. I think, like, I actually sort of admire people who are so crazy they want to be the best at what they do. And like, we'll say that out loud, like, I respect it. I love it. I love an athlete. But I do think that the way that it came off is like, and the way to do that is to continue to just ram my shit down your throat. And I think that Michael B Jordan has shown us this other path, which is like, I don't know. I think for people who feel overlooked often, it's like a very reassuring thing of like, if you keep doing the work, if you keep showing up, if you work hard, if you perfect your craft, if you take the opportunities that are given to you, if you build with others who are on the same like, in the same mindset as you, you can be at the top of your game. Like you can be an Oscar winning actor. I saw someone on the internet said, Michael B, Best Actor. Jordan like and I love that. And I also just want to say one more thing about him. And then said, you could say you can close us out on this. His name is Michael B Jordan. And the fact that I have forgotten that his name is Michael Jordan shows that he has truly come into his own self. Because I remember when he first came on the scene, I was like, It's so embarrassing that his name is Michael Jordan, and now I don't even think about that, like I completely have forgotten that his name is Michael Jordan.
Saeed Jones 23:28
That's true star power. Yeah, last night was not a commentary on fascism, the award ceremony, if, and certainly, if we want to compare it to the Grammys. The Grammys felt like it was taking place in the reality the rest of us live in. And it was a rare instance when it felt like these celebrities, many of the millionaires as well, were at least performatively speaking and acknowledging the reality the rest of us live in regarding ice, regarding this fascistic government, the Oscars as Zach and I expect, and I think Traci said this, you said this as well. We were like we were not, we did not go into the Oscars expecting that same kind of full throated rejection of fascist politics. But even then, it felt more stifled, aside from the person who spoke up after his win the Best Documentary, yeah, about Putin and who spoke so eloquently and beautifully about how you lose your country through small acts of complicity. But that being said, and I think you're right, these models of excellence via community and excellence via frigid isolationism. You know, it does relate. And so I'm not into sports, Traci, but I am into excellence. I love people who do that's why, like what the Actor's Studio like, even as a kid. Just watching people talk seriously about their craft, kind of whatever it is. Yeah, I'm in podcast, yeah, truly, the first podcast, you know, it could be about, honestly, wood carving, but if someone's like, can really eloquently explain why they love it and why they know they're good at it, I'm in because it becomes a question. If we look at Timothy Charlemagne versus Michael B Jordan, what are you excellent for? It makes me think of Autumn Durald Arkapaw, who won Best Cinematography for her work on sinners as she should. That's shout out to all those. Shout out to us being able to see what was going on during the night scene. She said you are not going to be confused for half of this damn movie. Thank you. It was beautifully shot. The light, oh my gosh, Jack falling. Jack O'Connell's character falling from the sky. But at one point, she asked all the women in the audience to stand up, right, because she understood that her win, and she must be the first woman,
Traci Thomas 26:06
she's the first woman to ever win for cinematography
Saeed Jones 26:06
This is in addition to women of color, right? Her win is like I am a part of a legion. And we're going to acknowledge that every every woman in this room knows exactly what this means, and that we're all doing this together on some level. And to your point, again, it's not just that we grew up with Michael B Jordan, I think, aside from Emma Stone, he's the only other actor I can think of who was so consistently worked with a director. And really, they are, they are a team. They might not do all of their projects together, but, you know, they're always talking about their projects, you know what I mean? And I know they have a plan, you know, going forward, and that's collaboration, and it's community, and it's really beautiful. So, yeah, I would never begrudge you know, the issue with Timothy was not that he wants to be the best. Wants to be excellent. It is that he has no idea of what he would use that excellence for. He only wants it for the adoration. He doesn't want it to advance any significant ideas, and certainly any people beyond himself and that, I think, right now, even for the actors and the Hollywood people who are not constantly posting about the news and talking about ice and talking about Gaza, I think even for those people, the quote, unquote, publicly apolitical folks, the cognitive dissonance was too much. Yeah, they were like, I feel like even they had to admit we got to have something of substance, morally going on here.
Traci Thomas 27:42
And like, about the campaigning piece of it, if we're all annoyed with him, like the public, the people who are actually in those rooms receiving the energy of his desperation, they've got to be annoyed. Like, could you imagine having to go to cocktail party and brunch and luncheon, and he's just there trying to schmooze you for a year, for years, if we can feel it, baby, you know, they can feel it.
Saeed Jones 28:12
I hadn't even thought about that, and that is such a great point. Traci knows, and I think Zach knows one of my close friends is Marlon James, the novelist. And the reason Marlon and I came became friends is that my first book, prelude to Bruce and his book, A History of Seven Killings, which, of course, went on to win the Booker, came out the same year we were in the same award cycle. And so, to your point, we became friends because it was such a pleasure to be around him. And oh my gosh, we were around each other so much you were on panel after panel, all the galas, all the mixers, the before parties, the after well, it only goes one of two ways. You either come out of that being like, I will never publish a book the same year as that person again, or I love them.
Zach Stafford 28:58
Yeah. And to this point, this is exactly why Steven Spielberg. Spielberg broke at South by Southwest and said, y'all know what fuck that twink. He should not be talking shit about opera or ballet. Steven Spielberg on the governor's board of Oscars, broke, I can't do it. Saw him on the red carpet and it avoided him. It was like, I can't do it
Traci Thomas 29:19
Literally if the Oscars had been one week earlier. Steven Spielberg would have survived
Zach Stafford 29:23
I can't no more.
Saeed Jones 29:27
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, because, again, it's just so human. This is the equivalent of having someone on your team at work that you don't like and yet you have a check in all hands meeting at 10am five days a week. You're gonna see them this week. You're gonna see them next week. Like it kind of like I'm looking at at Michael B Jordan and being like, Damn. What has it been like to watch at the sags, at the, you know, the the critics choice? Over and over and over. Delroy lindo Wunmi Musaku Like, what's it been like to like you? It's You're right. It's not like nothing happens before the Oscar in fact, everything happens before the Oscars. The cameras are on you at every fucking moment, people are drinking. It's actually really commendable that more people make it through the award season without rolling their eyes at some point.
Traci Thomas 30:25
And then imagine like you're getting like, like Timmy is like, talking to you about, like, method acting or whatever. And then like Michael B Jordan just walks by. Is like, Hey, good to see you again Saeed. like, yeah, you have my vote. Like, Hey, did you want another drink? I'm gonna go to the bar. Like, or like, imagine you're stuck in a conversation with Timmy and Michael B Jordan's like, Hey, do you want to come to the bathroom with me? Or like, oh, go to the bathroom. I'd be like, you could have every Oscar for the rest of your life.
Saeed Jones 30:56
Well, also, I mean, and this is for the last year or so. However, to interact with Timmy is to interact with the Kardashians. That's right, which I know a great many actors are like, Please don't bring them. You know what? I mean, like, you don't want to. There's just a lot
Zach Stafford 31:12
There's a lot. And the only upside he got out of all this is that I know he ended up last night at Beyonce and Jay Z's party, which means that Beyonce had to entertain him as he licked his wounds. So I guess that's the silver lining. He lost, but Beyonce gave him a hug
Traci Thomas 31:25
For him, but you know Blue Ivy was like, okay I'm going to bed now. She's like you guys invited him? he's wearing white Timbs?
Zach Stafford 31:33
I mean, I thought we only hung up with winners. what is this?
Saeed Jones 31:35
Now that Blue Ivy is actually old enough that she can probably start going to some of these. But too young I'd still say
Traci Thomas 31:41
but if it was, like at their house or whatever, I bet it wasn't okay. I want to turn in the same vein about sort of like I teased before this, like leadership style, which ties into what we're talking about with the community versus the self. When it comes to Ryan Coogler and Paul Thomas Anderson. Both men won their categories for screenplay. Paul Thomas Anderson for his adapted screenplay of Vineland by Thomas Pynchon, which he turned into one battle after the other after another, one battle again and again. What the fuck is the title of that movie? I'm sick of it.
Saeed Jones 32:18
It is a great title, I have to say one battle after another
Traci Thomas 32:21
You like it? I can never remember it.
Saeed Jones 32:23
It's just one of those, like, Oh, that is a good phrase.
Traci Thomas 32:27
It's a good phrase. But sometimes I'm like, is it one battle after another? One battle after the other one battle? Like, do you know? Like, I cannot get the exact word edge. And then Ryan Coogler won for sinners, his original and then PTA won director and picture. Coogler did not win those awards, obviously, but I think for me, the two things that I want to call ask you guys to kind of weigh in on is one, when Ryan Coogler won, he got up there with his great Oakland voice. I just, every time I hear him talk, it reminds me of home. I just, I'm like, hello so fucking bae. And he asked everyone in his movie, cast and crew to stand up. And he said, you're all winners to me. Y'all made this possible for me. You know, he celebrated them, he acknowledged them. Then he went on to his wife, who is his co producer on the film, his partner. You know, she is his wife and his partner, I think that's important to say. And she makes a lot of decisions. Many people thanked her last night. And then her name is zinzi. And then he talked about his kids, and that really fucking got me when he was saying, I hope you guys know that I'm doing all of this for you, and that I can't always be there and like that you see that this is the thing and that, like,
Saeed Jones 33:57
like, when I'm not with you,
Traci Thomas 33:59
this is the thing that I'm doing. And I just I feel that. I feel that so deeply as the child of a working mother, and as a mother who many times says to my kids, okay, Mommy's got to go to work tonight. You know, you know your Grandma's gonna put you down, and I gotta go to work, but I'll be here, you know, in the morning when you wake up, or I gotta go to San Antonio for the book festival or whatever. And I obviously it's not the same thing as going away for months to do a movie, but for him to sort of articulate what that feels like was, I mean, I just, I died. So I want to know. And so then I want to juxtapose that with Paul Thomas Anderson, who talked about doubt people doubting him, and also, really for this whole campaign, has managed to not acknowledge any of the political issues that are brought up in his movie. He very much made it about himself. He very much made it about his mind. And he doesn't talk about ice, which is a prominent sort of visual in the movie, or black women or multiculturalism at that, you know. And so I'm curious what you all make of these two different men who have made two different movies, having these two different sort of things.
Zach Stafford 35:18
I can start and said, I want to read something he said, you kind of summarize what he said on stage, which I thought was a bunch of nothing, but I have a quote from him as he got off stage and was interviewed afterwards. Because sometimes what they say off stage is they're prepared for Mars, because they're like, this is what I actually want to say. And in Paul said this one, these two sentences that really sent me into a spiral last night, and they're about his kids. Traci, I didn't know you were gonna ask this question, so I'm glad we're once again synced. He says quote, I wrote this movie for my kids to say sorry for the housekeeping mess that we left in this world. We're handing off to them, but also with the encouragement that they will hopefully be the generation that brings us some common sense and decency. So he said a version of that on stage, and then he said it afterwards, too. And this has kind of been his, his line that, like I made this movie because I want to inspire my children. His mixed kids, for no, he's married Maya Rudolph. He had some mixed kids that, like you guys, will bring decency to this mess, and like you'll be the ones to change everything. And what I think is so interesting when you compare what he's saying, what Ryan is saying is Ryan is saying to us, as a black man who's 40, he's like, Hey, kids, I'm out here making work that's changing the world. It's uplifting these people. I'm building a community. Me and your mom are out here giving jobs or changing lives or changing art. We're active in this world. There's only 15 years apart between Ryan and PTA. PTA is only 55 years old. Paul Thomas Anderson is giving us a speech that's like, look what I did. It's kind of over. We gave you this world. Good luck to you. You're gonna change it. He's very retiree. Yeah, this pissed me off so much that I did some math. Donald Trump at 55 so if we go backwards in time to 55 President Trump at 55 in comparison, his youngest Baron wasn't even born yet. Tiffany Trump was seven. The rest were ages 17 to 23 Paul Thomas Anderson's kids are ranged age 12 to 20 My point is Paul Thomas Anderson is prime age to do much more in this world. He is now the most powerful director in Hollywood. He is 55 years old. He can now command whatever movie he wants, whatever deal he wants. His art, to your point said, is so political, whether he wants to talk about it or not, why does this man refuse to do anything with all the powers that be in front of him while Ryan Coogler in the moments in which he is nervous on stage talking about Oakland, stands up there with his full chest, points out everyone that built this movie with him, points to his community, points to his family. Thanks everybody. And does it with so much grace. And it just is so confounding to me that we as black people continue to meet the moment with such beauty and grace and gratitude, and white people who for 28 years, Paul Thomas Anderson was nominated in 1998 the first time he's been nominated 14 times. He has had 14 times to practice that speech. This is what he gives us. This is what he says. And I just think it's so disappointing. He's had 14 times to prepare for this moment, and he could not in a moment in which he makes a movie that demonstrates how ice is destroying communities, how black people are being jailed and raped, how communities are just disappearing. He had nothing to say about any of that. All he could say is, hey, mixed kids I'm raising, maybe you'll make this better. I'm sorry I made such a mess. I'm gonna go be rich now and make more movies. Bye. I just think it's all incredibly disappointing
Traci Thomas 38:37
I think, because I think part of what pisses me off about this is that he is getting credit for work he has not done, or, like, he's getting credit for, like, making a political movie and, like, speaking to the moment, right? That's what everybody said. Paul Thomas Anderson is speaking to this moment with one battle after another, which, okay, I don't agree with that. I don't think this movie speaks to this moment at all. I don't think this movie has anything to actually say, but he has. He's getting credit for having done that with his work, and then for him to stand up there and not to deliver anything political, even remotely like I think it's extremely political for Ryan Coogler to say, everybody who worked on this movie stand up. We're all winners, and we did this together. It might not be fuck ice, but it is not nothing. In the same way that Autumn saying all the women stand up, that is a political moment, and I think fine, if Paul Thomas Anderson doesn't want to, quote, unquote, let the art speak for itself, or whatever people say. Fine, but there is a way for him to at least have said it is not lost on me that the first time I am winning for Best Director or best picture is a movie in which we are bringing together the issues of this moment. Thank you to my team for giving me space to talk about things that are going on in this world, even that which says nothing, which makes him have to take no side, which makes him have to not even say the word black or immigrant, even that would be enough to say, I recognize that this movie has positioned me in a place I have never been, and thank you for caring about this thing that I made for my kids, like there are a million ways to say, even the nothingness of something. And he failed and to your question Saeed what he said about doubt, what he said about self doubt was he said there will always be some doubt in your heart that you deserve it, but there is no question at the pleasure of having it for myself.
Saeed Jones 40:46
Yeah, ooh, I've just been sitting here processing. You can tell that there is an alternate career pathways in which I became a speech writer, Pulitzer Prize winning poet Jericho Brown was a speech writer for years in Louisiana, by the way, at one point in his life, because I think what I've kept waiting for Paul Thomas Anderson to say about his film one battle after another, is none of us have to wait to be perfect to take radical action and in fact, real change, the change that we are living and dying for lack of is going to depend on us willing to be imperfect radicals. You know, Leonardo DiCaprio's character, I think the reason, and I say this as someone who did not love the film. But the reason people do, who do love the film, love his role, is that it's like he is a mess. He is a mess in every way. But the only thing he knows for sure is he's going to protect this girl. You know that, that that is, that is the only thing that makes sense to him and and what does the girl represent, but the future, but all of these ideas coming together, which, okay, let's not turn a child into a symbol, but we, I can rock with you on that. And to the point again, the cinematographer makes me think of Lady Gaga at the Grammys, like she used one of her speeches to talk about, I know what it's like to be in the studio late at night, and you look around in the booth and it's just men. You're just it's just you and a bunch of men telling you, you know how they think you should follow through on your vision. Listen to yourself, trust yourself. That is political, and I think there's this i And he and Paul Thomas Anderson, a couple of weeks ago, it made me so angry because someone asked him to Oh, it was in Berlin. Asked him about politics, and he said, Well, I'm not a politician. The entire point, as I said on vibe check, is that you're not a politician. That is not what people are asking for. What we're asking for is for you to acknowledge how politics informs the work you are doing. And there are so many ways to do that, and he just refused, and I am sorry. It is 2026 we got 20 year olds using chat GPT to eviscerate funding for really important research across this country. I am just not gonna hear a white man with everything going for him. Your wife is Maya fucking Rudolph. Do not talk to me about doubt. Do not talk to me about being unsure if people are gonna be willing to give you, of all people, a shot. It's like Harry Styles being like winning the Grammy for Album of the Year, and being like things like this don't happen to boys like me very often. They happen to you all the time.
Zach Stafford 43:41
Right now, it's happening to you right now, and that's why I felt myself getting so angry last night, because, as he's saying all these platitudes about his kids and hopefully, you will be the change that the world needs to see. All I thought was, you're 55 you were a child of the 70s. I'm sure your parents said the exact same thing about you when you were growing up in the 70s, and hoped that one day you would be the change that they could not accomplish. And yet here you are on the stage at the Dolby Theater saying nothing in the moment in which you should be saying everything.
Saeed Jones 44:13
Why are you using Epilogue language for your own life
Zach Stafford 44:18
You're not dead, you're not dead, you're at the prime of your life. That's why I had to, like, look at his age, and that's why I was like, who's older, who has more power? And I was like, oh my god, he could be Donald Trump's son. This is actually, you have so much more life to live. You could live 30 more years and be president.
Saeed Jones 44:37
You're a rich white man, like literally, statistically
Zach Stafford 44:40
You will be alive. You've given up already. You've given up. And you're telling your kids do more for me.
Traci Thomas 44:47
And then when they won Best Picture, and he referred to Chase Infiniti as my American Girl, because, you know, that was a song, because that's the song that plays at the end of the movie. And I literally was like. bye. Now you understand why us fucking mixed kids have this pathology because of people like him.
Saeed Jones 45:11
Oh to be a fly on the wall of Regina Hall's group text, because Regina Hall don't play. And I'm really it would be really interesting to getinsight into how she felt.
Traci Thomas 45:24
Was she there last night? Oh, she might have been there. She might not have gotten any screen time
Zach Stafford 45:31
She was there.
Saeed Jones 45:33
She was going through, like the promo, obviously, she was a part of, yeah, as we talked about the promos, like, like, she's had to watch all of it and be a part of all of this, I will say, Who did I felt what I was thinking about came out of this as a winner. Teyana Taylor, the only thing better than actually winning the Oscar. And I actually think when we think about black people winning the Oscars as the curse, I think the only thing better than actually winning the Oscar and then as often as the case being disappointed is the roles don't come is to have a truly ascendant I mean, as far as Oscar seasons go, Teyana, baby, you will always be famous. The fashion, the grace, every interview I watched her in she was interesting. She knows how to change it up. She's tapping into her multi hyphenate, you know, roles, and then she didn't win. No one's mad at her, you know what? I mean. She handled it. I saw she wrote a wonderful post on Twitter about people being mad. And she was like, y'all. She was like, Y'all, are so used to being sore losers that when you see someone demonstrate good sportsmanship. She was like, of course, I'm gonna clap and applaud Amy Madigan's win and performance. Why wouldn't I? She's like, Y'all, you know what I mean, she's just done so it is so great to be in that position, and oh my gosh, I'm sure her agent's phone and inbox are just like, off the hook, because we know this is just the beginning for her, and she's going to do really well, and she seemed to have a great time. And I'm really happy for her, and I only hope she gets better roles. Because, again, that was the because that's the that was what was frustrating
Traci Thomas 47:10
people were people have given me, over the last however, many months, six months since I've been talking about this movie, a hard time saying, well, she did a great job. And I said, yeah, no, I never for one second didn't think she did a great job. And, you know, she's had to defend the her role and say, like, you know, it's about complicated characters and this and that. And yes, I agree. I want complicated characters for black women. I want complicated characters for every story that I have to sit through or read or watch whatever. Please give me a full human being, I would really appreciate that all of you. But I don't think she got a good character. My issue is with the writing, not with the performance. She showed up to work and she did a stellar job with the text that was given to her on that page, and that is the job of the actor. The actor's job is to take what they are given and give it life. I think she did that. I love her. I want only good things for her. I am sick of you people who are listening. You know who you are telling me that I don't. I only want black women to be presented as perfect, and that is not true. So if you feel that way about any of this critique, you're wrong.
Saeed Jones 48:23
Traci knows my favorite fiction character of all of American literature is Sula, who could not be messier, more selfish, more problematic. Oh, my God, but no, I have to say Chase infiniti. Regina Hall, anteanato Taylor, all three of them, incredible performances, amazing with stick figure characters.
Traci Thomas 48:45
Every character in the whole every actor in the movie, gave a good performance. Oh, there's not a bad performance. There's not a bad performance in the whole movie.
Zach Stafford 48:54
And our critique, because we've been right this whole time, has been with Paul Thomas Anderson, and we've made some connections to his personal life, his artistry, everything else. And then he proved us right in all his speeches, where he kept dedicating this to his children and saying, This is a gift to them, which has been our point. This is about your kids and the gift. And if Chase is supposed to represent your children.
Traci Thomas 49:13
This is about a white man, and that the movies are about a white man, are about white men. And the people who were awarded last night were white men and the white lady or the white people. And I think, like, I think, Zach, you sent it to the our group chat about how, like that, this is also a movie about immigration and that that has broadly been left out of the conversation of that movie. And I talked about it, I agree. I feel like I have not talked about that very much at all for multiple reasons, one of which is, I feel like I'm uniquely situated to talk about the other issue in the movie about black women and mixed people. But I do think it's very telling that like Paul Thomas Anderson isn't really getting questions about that like he's not. He's really getting questions about black women, because black women have made a big stink about this movie
Saeed Jones 49:56
Even as when I was watching the show come to. O'Brien was like saying hello to Spanish speaking countries. He was like Brazil, and he speaks in Spanish and Spain, he speaks in Spanish and he was in LA and he speaks in Spanish a city in an industry beautifully, richly, deeply historically, like California should be Mexico, straight out, literally, no, no. No, that's mean, like, it should still be Mexico and so, yeah, it just, it just makes it, whether you're talking about the way ice has pointedly impacted Los Angeles or the history of California and its relationship to Mexico and independence, it there's just like every reason to talk about it in a way that, honestly, I don't think it's especially controversial, and it's just odd, his his
Zach Stafford 50:51
Inability it's really and the movie could have just, there's just so many rich conversations we could have been having this whole season, and we didn't, and that's Why Sean Penn winning for Best Supporting and did not show up to one award show and won them all. Is just the perfect way for him to win. Like it was, it was just like, listen, they just handed it over. They were like, don't show up, girl, you don't need to
Saeed Jones 51:13
Can I ask a question? By the time we got to the I don't like the Oscars generally. I'm not a huge an award season person, but I really, obviously was not thrilled about the Oscars. I didn't watch them last night, right? I bowed out about 20 minutes in, or whatever, this season, and this discussion has felt uniquely trying. And I wanted to ask y'all if it was, is it because, like, as you mentioned, the season went on a month longer than it usually actually six weeks longer than it usually does. Is that it is it because the films that went the distance are very much about race, white supremacy and racism, and so that becomes a part of the debate, as opposed to, like, years where every film was like, you know, coda, or a hamnet, you know, where we're just not set up there was just like this. I was like, I am so tired of hearing what people have to say about these movies, even when I agree with people, yeah, you know what I mean. How do y'all feel about that? Where'd that come from?
Traci Thomas 52:17
I do think these two movies were uniquely situated to be in conversation with each other, and we are in an era of loving conversation. That's why I have a job. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being part of our Patreon and substack paid subscribers. Appreciate you. Love you, but I do think that the conversations and also like the piece of it about the ownership of the movie and how much money the movies made, and how they were in conversation in that way. Because one of the big critiques against Paul Thomas Anderson has been that his movies might be good, but they're small and nobody sees them. So he delivered on some of that critique that he's been up against as an artist like that, nobody cares about your small stories. And I think that is in direct.
Saeed Jones 53:01
He was like, I'll give you an action movie
Traci Thomas 53:02
I'll give you an action movie. And Ryan Coogler said, I will give you a original movie that will make money. And they both delivered, I think, bigger than anybody had anticipated, certainly. And so I think that's part of the conversation. So I just think, like these movies are on these parallel tracks, and there's, you've they both have star power. There's so many people in these movies to talk about, like the del Roy Lindo, the Wunmi, of it all. Michael B Jordan, it's so rich, so rich for discussion.
Zach Stafford 53:36
And there, and they came out of a studio that is being sold. Yeah, it was part of a huge merger and acquisition story. Warner Brothers is still, you know, maybe bought by Paramount. And also it came at a time in which we have a lot of really good movies. I think this is the best, well, best reviewed Oscars in years. Yeah, we had so many riches in terms of films. Like, I would say this is like, was a really hard Oscar to even vote on because so many people deserved it. So in years past, it was very clear, like, that person's clearly gonna win. But this one, it was like, who could even the times? Was like, Girl, we don't know. Like, even voters I talked to in LA were like, I true. I was at dinners, two dinners over the weekend, and people I knew who were voting, but like, I truly do not know. And usually you kind of know, but yeah, you didn't it was
Traci Thomas 54:20
I think that's true, because I, like, think, I feel like, with covid, and then there was, like, bad Oscars, right? Because there was, like, no movies being made. And then we got, like, the Barbenheimer year, and it was just those two movies. And there was a lot of chatter, but it was mostly about marketing. And then when the movies came out, it was sort of about, like women
Saeed Jones 54:37
Good point because, like, the year of the slap, I don't even remember what film won, like, what was nominated, or what, you know, what I mean, like, I don't actually, I remember Beyonce performed and Will Smith was doing some movie about Williams sisters dads, but, like, I can't remember anything else, any other movie from that, yeah.
Traci Thomas 54:56
I mean, all I remember is the slap. But that took up a lot of oxygen.
Saeed Jones 54:59
I mean. These films are great. It's not. It's so strange because it's like, it's not, I don't know, everything just felt this. It just felt really intense, in a way that was just starting to get a little exhausting.
Zach Stafford 55:08
I needed it to be done.
Saeed Jones 55:08
I was like are y'all talking about this? Because the SEO strategy, you know what I mean? Like, I was just like, the takes were starting to get a little.
Traci Thomas 55:13
That's so true. I think also, the other reason that people were spending so much time talking about these is that I was talking about about this with my best friend Chris, and we were saying how it's been a long time since a movie won best picture that people actually liked. And I think people actually liked both of these movies, and so they felt some type of way about it. We went back and looked, and I feel like it like it basically takes to like the 2010s to get to something like Slumdog Millionaire people actually liked, Chicago people actually liked, the departed people actually liked but the recent Best Picture winners, I think parasite is one that people actually liked. But also I don't think it was the same, because Americans hate to read, and that includes subtitles,
Saeed Jones 56:06
Everything, everywhere, all at once, you know? But even then, I think you're right. It's usually, and I still think they have too many nominees for Best Picture, right? It's 10, yeah, but this was a strong ten to Zach's point, and it wasn't just films people liked, films people watched. You know what I mean? And you know, the year, like coda, I was like, I genuinely have not heard of this movie. Sounds great. Never heard of it before. You know it, yeah. So yeah. That makes Yeah, which so it's exciting. We say we want big 10 events, and then they come, and then I'm like, It's too much. Too many people.
Traci Thomas 56:41
I like that. I like that the two big movies that people went to see made it to the end of the season. Because imagine if we got to the end of the season and everybody was talking about it was, like, sentimental value, like, no offense to that movie, but nobody's I would be like, are we really spend 75 years in the wilderness? And this is where we are?
Saeed Jones 56:59
To your point of how it's just like, you just, don't know, just the other day I watched twice in one day because I loved it so much I might watch it again after we're done here. Black bag, Steve Soderbergh, starring Michael Fassbender, oh my god, the Cate Blanchett. You wanted in tar I'm like, she's in this movie. This is the Cate Blanchett. I wanted Naomi Harris, home girl from industry that you love. It is an incredible and I looked it came out into I'm pretty it came out in March of 2025 I'm pretty sure it would have qualified for this Oscar season. And it just didn't. But I post about it on blue sky, and everyone was like, oh my god, I love that movie. So it just shows you, it's a long season and you just have no idea what's gonna go the distance.
Zach Stafford 57:49
And it was one of my vibrex forever ago with among many vibrax, okay, forever ago
Saeed Jones 57:55
It's a spy movie. It's a spy movie. It's so perfect. Good, so good, so sexy. No sex. Okay. They said that, and then he did, then heated rivalry came out. I'm like
Traci Thomas 58:10
That's for millennials, the young kids are not watching that. It's all the moms
Zach Stafford 58:16
But then Saeed read Rachel's books. They don't have sex till page 260
Saeed Jones 58:20
You're still mad about that.
Zach Stafford 58:23
I read that book like no one's fucking in this book? we're just gonna not fuck for a long time okay
Traci Thomas 58:32
Okay. Well, I think we're done. We could keep going, but I think we're done.
Saeed Jones 58:36
We're free, and I will never talk about this Oscars again.
Traci Thomas 58:42
Let's make a blood pact right now to never talk about any of these movies ever again
Saeed Jones 58:48
Someone's gonna yell sinners, and I'm gonna say saints and walk away
Traci Thomas 58:55
Can I just say one last thing that somebody said, and then we'll be done. The greatest thing I saw yesterday was Christiana Mbakwe Medina, who hosts pop syllabus and is a friend of our podcast. She said Timmy wanted to be black. He wanted to do his whole wigga thing, and then he fucked around and found out what it felt like to be black when he didn't end up winning. And I said a word,
Saeed Jones 59:19
he wore all white. Should have worn the color purple, yeah,
Traci Thomas 59:26
and that's how you know this is a literary podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening. This has been a wonderful conversation with Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford, co host of one of my favorite podcasts, besides the stacks, actually, I listened to it before I listened to my show, because I don't listen to my show. It's called vibe check. I love it. If you haven't listened to it, you need to. Thank you guys.
Zach Stafford 59:44
we love the stacks.
Saeed Jones 59:47
If there was anyone I was going to talk to to put the headstone on the corpse that is this Oscar season, it is you and Zach
Traci Thomas 59:57
And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.