Ep. 369 Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton — The Stacks Book Club (Tiana Clark)

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It’s the Stacks’ Book Club Day, and we’re discussing Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton with returning guest, Tiana Clark. We discuss how Clifton welcomes audiences usually excluded from poetry and how her work still manages to have urgency 25+ years later. We also work through some of the poems that were challenging for us, and uncover some hidden meanings.

There are no spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our May book club pick will be.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Tiana Clark 0:00

I think there's a way in which her poems just remind me of like an auntie at the kitchen table. It's giving Auntie energy, big Auntie energy, which, if you know the aunt you go to for wisdom and for laughter. There's always a knife moment where, like, you think you're safe, and then she just, she gets you, and you're like, Whoa. That just really, like, kind of cut through through me in a very clear way. But there's a clarity, there's a there's just crystalline clarity to her work.

Traci Thomas 0:27

Welcome to the stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is the stacks book club day to wrap up National Poetry Month, we will be discussing blessing the boats by Lucille Clifton with our returning guest, poet and essayist Tiana Clark, today, Tiana and I discuss the brilliance of Lucille Clifton from her ability to write a short, searing poem to encapsulating the persona of others and finding the humor in life. We also talk about the importance of references and poems and the invitation to readers who maybe never felt like they had a home in the world of poetry, be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our May book club pick will be. And a quick reminder everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this episode, if you love this podcast, if you love supporting independent creators, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join our readerly community, aka the Stacks Pack or find out more of what I'm talking about when it comes to books, Pop Culture, Sports, non fiction, everything by subscribing to my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com by joining either of these communities, you get perks like bonus episodes, reading guides and more. Plus, you get to know that you're making the stacks happen every single week. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Tiana Clark about Lucille Clifton's collection, Blessing the Boats.

All right, everybody, it's book club. It's April, which means it is Poetry Month. I am joined again by poet Tiana Clark, whose new book is called Scorched Earth. Tiana, welcome back to The Stacks.

Tiana Clark 2:13

Hi. Thanks for having me. Traci, happy to be back.

Traci Thomas 2:15

I'm so happy you're here. So everybody, you already know this, but just in case you don't, we are talking about blessing the boats, which are new and Selected Poems from 1988 through 2000 by the Lucille Clifton, I don't know that there's such thing as a spoiler for a poetry collection, but if there is, we will spoil this book. Okay, we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna go into detail. You're probably safe. They're actually just poems. So it's not, not a big plot twist. We always start here for Book Club episodes, which is generally, what did you think of this book? And also, if you've read it before, any reflections on how that maybe has changed since the last time you've read it.

Tiana Clark 3:00

You know, I've been reading Lucille Clifton's work for so long, but, yeah, I think this is like the first time I've actually kind of sat down. Because usually when I pick up her, I mean, her poems are so small, they're almost like little fortune cookies that you can kind of take with you. And so it was so great to actually kind of read through her, how do you say over, over, I

Traci Thomas 3:22

don't know over. Sorry that I'm fluent in making up how to say things.

Tiana Clark 3:30

I never know how to say that word. But I think one thing that actually reading through blessing the boats that I actually didn't realize, that actually kind of broke my heart, is the theme of, I think childhood sexual trauma and abuse, and seeing that thread throughout, and just how those memories, how she actually changed and shaped them throughout her years, that was really, really striking to me that I think I hadn't picked up before. And I actually think is pretty masterful and brilliant, and also heart rending. But I think that she is a poet that I constantly return to. I think her concision and her like just pure distillation, how she's able to say so much and so little. Um, yeah, I pulled this quote from Elizabeth Alexander that I think sums her up perfectly. She wrote physically small poems with enormous and profound inner worlds. Do you think that's how do you think about that?

Traci Thomas 4:22

I think, I think that's great. I mean, I'm a big, I'm a big. Elizabeth Alexander, fan. We actually did her memoir for Book Club years ago on the podcast, and I didn't know her at all. Her work at all. The book is called Light of the world, and it's about the sudden death of her husband. And I think of all the book club books we've ever done that was the most like, pleasantly surprised and taken. I was by a book because I knew nothing about it, and was just like, This is amazing. So, long story short, love that book. I think that. I think that totally nails Lucille Clifton's poems. I think for me, I'd never read. Many books of her work, I'd only kind of read the poems that people talk about and know, famously, the one that's like, every day something has tried to kill me. It has failed. Yeah, it has failed. Like, won't you come celebrate with me or something, if that's what it's called. And the thing that I knew about her, that I think I knew I now know even more to be true, is that the Voltas are vaulting. Okay, the Voltas and I think this is, that's the correct way to say it, but it's like the twist at the end of the poem. Yeah, it's like, poem, poem, poem, volta like, talking about this, talking about this, talking about this. Oh, actually, the whole time I was talking about that in your face, amazing. It's funny that you say that this thread of like, sexual abuse as a child that never once occurred to me in reading this collection, I never picked up on that at all. I think what surprised me the most about the collection was how much religion was in this one. I mean, there's so many poems that I was like, took a note that was just, "Tiana can explain this to me later." Because I because in your collection, you write a lot about your relationship to religion, and so I assume that some of those probably made a lot more sense to you, like the Lucifer poems. I was like--

Okay, I got some insight.

Okay, okay, we'll do religion. We'll do religion later. But those are sort of my big and my other big takeaway is that I feel like there were a lot of poems in this collection that I did not really like, feel anything about, but there were a handful that I loved so much, like the last poem about, I think it's called, like heaven. Maybe I don't know the final poem, and it's my brother. It's called heaven with the brother. I read it like I read it, and then I was just and then I started tearing up, and then I read it like four more times, and then I just went to sleep like, I just loved that poem. So which is to say, like her skill. When it lands. For me, it really lands. There was a lot of stuff that I was just like, okay.

You know it's so interesting. That poem heaven too, is that, I think I forgot how funny Russell Clifton is, and that particular, you know, because it ends with the brothers, like, waiting, you know, for her in heaven. And I just love, like, even when she was right she was wrong.

It just perfectly captures, I have an older brother, and it perfectly captures brother, sister, relation, at least, my experience is having a brother, and I also took notes on her sense of humor and like and I think I mean, we could start here kind of because my sense of humor in poetry is it's really difficult to do, because there has to be an understanding of your audience, and like Who exactly you're winking and nodding to, and that has to be really specific, because, especially in her case, you're using so few words, yeah, I'm curious what you because you also have humor and a lot of your poems.

Tiana Clark 7:59

Yeah, I think humor levity is actually really, really hard to do, and I never try to be funny, but I but I also think capturing your voice is just capturing who you are. And obviously is like, you know, the holistic human experience. You know, there's not just joy, but there's sorrow, there's also humor in the darkness. And I think that she nails that like, I think a great example is this wishes for my four sons on page 71 you know, I wish them cramps. I wish them a strange town and the last tampon. I wish them no 7/11 like that. It's funny, you know what? I mean? Yeah? Like, yeah,

Traci Thomas 8:33

Totally. And actually, all of these sort of period poems, the to my last period poems to my uterus, like, though there's a menstruation one also, like the all of those ones are sort of like tongue in cheek a little.

Tiana Clark 8:47

Yeah, to start like, to my last period. Well, girl, goodbye. It's just like, but I think there's a way in which her poems just remind me of like an auntie at the kitchen table. You know that there's a very colloquialness of, I think that if you know that kind of Auntie in your family, it's giving Auntie energy, big Auntie energy, which, if you know the aunt, if you go to for wisdom and for laughter, right? You laugh with them and you cry with them, if you go for them for advice. And I feel like it's interesting that you noted the Volta, because her poems almost have that Haiku, like quality or a Tonka, which is like a haiku within two more lines of seven, seven. And so in a Tonka, you actually also have a volta, just like you would in a sonnet. And so she has that, like, that twist, that turn, there's always, like, something like, there's always a knife moment where, like, you think you're safe, and then she just, she gets you, and you're like, Whoa, yeah, wow. That is intense, you know, like she just has these lines sometimes that I'm like, Whoa, that just really, like, kind of cut through through me in a very clear way. But there's a clarity, there's a there's crystalline clarity to her work that I really, really admire. And I actually think it's difficult. I feel like it's almost like figure skating. Like when you see a really good figure skater, all you're seeing is them, like, easing across. Ice. But you know how much like work? Yeah, you know, and muscle memory is there, but there's like an intellect that meets the intuition in her work that seems so seamless. But I actually think it's difficult to actually write a very short poem, because the economy and our attention is just such a small space to do really big things.

Traci Thomas 10:17

Can I ask you about poem length? I wanted to ask you about this last time, because you have in your collection some shorter poems, and then you have some longer poems, and you actually like write to the long poem, like you have a poem about the long poem. And I know you love Ross gay, who also writes long poems. So my question is, as you're writing a poem, are you thinking like, this is gonna be probably, like a long one. Are you thinking like, I need more for this? I want this to be long, or I want this to be short, or does a poem sort of come to you and sort of land and it's like, I'm just 12 lines? Like, have you just work within that whatever comes like, how much fleshing out or editing down do poems sort of require? And obviously each poem is different, but like, in general, how does that work? And then I guess sort of a volta to this question would be in this collection, there are some like, poem series where it's like, 1234, and it's all on the same thing. So how did how does she know? How does one know to do that instead of do a longer poem with, like, four big stanzas or something?

Tiana Clark 11:31

Yeah, it's like the famous the chicken or the egg. You know, each poem is its own world. That's like telling you its own logic, its own rules, its own gravity, right? But I will say, for example, I think, from for my collection, scorched earth, I was actively and intentionally leaning into link like that was, that was top of mind, and something that I was actively thinking about. And so if anything, I was giving myself permission which allowed for like, when I since that kind of stopping, I actually kept going. But there have been a few times in my life where a poem just kind of comes out and it's small and it just wants to be small and, like, I'll try to write more, and it just is, like, not going and it's just me kind of being like, Oh, you just want to be a small little guy, okay, like, or it's editors. I had a, actually a longer poem in the book, and then I sent it to Amy and Zeke matattle, and she cut it. It's my tiramisu poem. She cut it at the tier me soup part, and I was like, okay, Amy, like, I will do whatever you say. Sometimes it's a really good editor, and I don't even remember the rest of that poem. Didn't need it, but an editor to come and be like, actually, I think the poem ends here. So I say, sometimes it's the poem, sometimes it's the poet, sometimes it's the editor, right? I think with sections, you know, I think it's a way of just organizing information, almost like chapters in a book. Like chapters in a book. So sometimes, with my students, when they have, like, a lot of really big content, and they're pulling in lots of the world, you know, I will say, like, Hey, your reader might have need to have their hand held a little bit. Or, how can we organize all of this information into ways that can make sense? You know, I think there's a shape sifter series in here that's in sections. And I think it's a way to kind of organize the information, or the lead of poems, you know, I think are in sections, yeah? And for me, it's almost like facets on a diamond. We're just turning, turning central theme, but we're turning, turning, turning, so each turn is a section, right? Yeah? And it's interesting how we encounter that, like, if it's a new poem, or if it's a section of poem, at least if it's in the same poem universe, we're in the same world. We're just turning that diamond to a different angle, right? There's so many poems I want to talk about. I hope it gets to so many.

Traci Thomas 13:30

Okay, yeah, let's I mean, where do you want to start? I have, there's so many things that I want to talk about that are broadly about the poems, but I think we could talk about them within a lot of the poems. So if there's ones you are just dying to talk about, let's talk about them.

Tiana Clark 13:42

Well, I mean, this is a horrible one, but I think, I think it's important. But on page 20, the Jasper, Texas, 1998 for James Byrd.

Traci Thomas 13:51

Okay, wait so before we even get to the poem, this is something I want to talk about. I want to talk about how important cultural references are in poetry. Because as a kid growing up, you learn poetry in school, and you learn a lot of like, old, dead, white guys who are talking about a landscape, right? And like that is what you're told is good poetry. And there's so much like we have to figure this out. And the older I get, and the more I try to read poems, the more I realized the poems I like the most are the poems that are referencing things that I too understand, where they feel like a cultural conversation. I personally am less interested in your emotional truth, and I'm more interested in you telling me about a thing. And I felt like that's so much in reading this book when I would catch a reference. For example, obviously this one, the one on the next page, Alabama, 915, 63 the poem Lorena. I was like, Oh, I know what this is, but I imagine that a male or a Gen Z or maybe a Gen alpha would read Lorena and have no clue that they were miss. Sing the word Bobbitt, or even who Lorena Bobbitt was, yeah. And so I was thinking a lot about that in these poems, that there are kind of back to the auntie thing, there are jokes and cultural references that, if you don't understand them, the poems just like, could be a total Miss for you, or maybe not a total miss, but just not as fully exciting. Yeah.

Tiana Clark 15:22

Oh, man, I have so many thoughts about this. So I in my first book, I wrote a poem after Rihanna, and I was inspired because I saw Hanif abducee write a poem after Carly Rae Jepsen, and I was like, I want to write about pop culture. And I wrote this Express poem called BB, hmm. And what does that mean? Oh, a classic poem is a poem off of, traditionally, it's a poem off of a piece of art. So I think the famous example is John Keats Ode to a Grecian urn. And then a modern example. I was wanting to do a modern take on this really old tradition of called a crass poetry. It comes from the Greek speak out, and it's like you're voicing the painting to make a static image sing, but I wanted to, I was like, Well, what's my version of something that's speaking to me? And it was bitch, but I have my money kind of what you're saying, This is my world reflecting back to me. And I was really interested in seeing this black woman in a role of retribution. And in grad school, one of my mentors was like, Tiana, you shouldn't do a pop culture reference because you don't want to timestamp in your poetry, don't you? Don't you care about mastery, don't you care about legacy? And I just did a book tour event where ocean Vong was in conversation with me, and he said something we were having the same exact conversation. He said something I've been thinking about ever since. And he goes, Why are we so obsessed with things that can last forever? The things that last forever are so destructive to our world. He's like, actually the things that are beautiful are the things that are ephemeral, a sunset, a butterfly. And I was like, I was like, I wish I had that response grad school. Yeah, this goes to your point. Though, of whatever writer you are, you are pulling in and reflecting the world around you. And for your readers, like for think of Shakespeare or shastra, you had to have your teachers explain that to you, or your teachers embolden you to do some research. I mean, I had, I had to reconfront myself with the myth of Lita and the swan. I had kind of known about it. I was like, let me go back and make sure I understand all the beats and let me go. I'm gonna read the poems and go research the Leda myth. Go back to the poems and see what else they have to say to me. And like, sometimes poems require extra work, extra like work off the page. And that's always that question of writing, of like, How much work do you want your writer to do? But I also am here to say, like, if we had to look up stuff for the old dead white guys, we can look up stuff for the black poets, you know, yeah, right.

Traci Thomas 17:33

Yeah. And I think, like, I mean, we talked about audience a little bit last time, and everyone listening knows I'm obsessed with it, but I do think, and I guess I should say, one of the things that I'm also obsessed with is hosting which should come as no surprise, since I host a podcast. But one of my favorite books is this book called The Art of gathering, by Priya Parker, and it's all about hosting events, gatherings, and what a successful gathering looks like. And I was thinking about this idea when it comes to these poems, because one of the things Priya talks about in her book is that any good gathering should have an exclusive guest list, right? That there is some intention on who is invited in and who is kept out, not necessarily to be bitchy or be like, you don't belong at my party. But let's say you're having a baby shower and you want the baby shower to be about, you know, women and parting wisdom to other women, then maybe the baby's father's not going to be there and the men in the family aren't going to be there. Or maybe your baby shower is about welcoming your child into their new family, so all of your friends and family are invited and like, and people that are more you know, co workers might not be, and that there's some intention about who is part of the gathering. And I think with these poems that are specific and based in cultural historical references, you get that yeah, like, yes, you can research and you can be invited into this moment. But for some people, it's just gonna be a click. No one has to say. No one had to tell me that Alabama 19 915, 63 before I read any more, was about anything other than that bombing, because I know that date right. And some people might have had to get a little deeper and say, Oh, synthe, Cynthia and Carol, and be like, Oh, okay, those names sound familiar. And some people might have gotten all the way to the end and had to go back, but that there is some sort of, like, I mean, it's sort of, won't you come celebrate with me? Like, it's like, this invitation from her to her readers, of like, you're in. Come on in. Let's talk about these things that we know and we feel.

Tiana Clark 19:42

Yeah, I think this directly corresponds to her poem on 38 why some people be mad at me? Sometimes, oh, my God, yes. Can I read this? It's very short, because I think this goes to this conversation they asked me to remember, but they want me to remember their memories. And I keep on remembering mine, and I feel like. That's what her whole, this whole book is about, right? And because it really says, like a snapshot into each of you know, the books that she had written up until this year, 2000 right? And I think, I think we have five books, but I think right now, we're living in the age where people want to believe in this fiction of America that never existed. Number one, we're seeing the attack on cultural memory. We're seeing the scrubbing of black history, of trans history. And so I think this poem gets to that of like, they're asking me remember, but like, I actually read about this. I think that she was a Maryland Poet Laureate for a long time, and there was something 250th anniversary, and they she was, they commissioned her to write a poem, and she was, like, thinking about what poem she wanted to write, and that she came up with this poem, and she read it, which I was like, this is a badass move, but I think that's the thing that, like you want me to celebrate something that didn't actually happen. Not my thing. Yeah, this is your thing. And I feel like all of these poems are what she wants to remember, what she wants to be in historical record. She wants to talk about James bird. She wants to talk about those four little girls that were bombed in that church. Because history has often either forgotten them or scrubbed them. She's pointing us back to what matters in her life.

Traci Thomas 21:08

And and that the people who are reading her poems that their stories and their memories are worthy of poetry, exactly right, like that. It's like, not only am I writing this and this is what I want to remember, but this is our history, and it is beautiful and tragic and whatever enough to warrant being in a poem or a poetry collection.

Tiana Clark 21:30

Yeah, it was interesting. When I was I was reading the piece in The New Yorker from Alexander after she died and she was she compared her writing to Emily Dickinson, but with the compression, but with the political consciousness that Emily Dickinson kind of didn't have, you know, at that time. And so I think, like, you know, with Emily Dickinson intense inner, private world, but there's something about Lucille Clifton's work that it's the intensity of her world that's tied to the whole world, right? It's the personal publicness. There's a personal political I like what you said, though, about the party, because thing about the party is like, Well, number one, what kind of party are you gonna be having? And that determines your guest list. And so I also think there's a way in which she's saying, hey, for those of you who have felt lost, forgotten, abused, broken, not seen as beautiful, come to my this is my party.

Traci Thomas 22:13

This is our party. Yeah, for sure. Okay, I want you to read the poem you wanted to read on 20 the Jasper, Texas, 1998.

Tiana Clark 22:19

I mean, it's so devastating. Okay, for Jay bird, I am a man's head hunched in the road. I was chosen to speak by the members of my body, the arm as it pulled away, pointed toward me. The hand opened once and was gone. Why and why and why should I call a white man brother, who is the human in this place, the thing that is dragged or the dragger? What does my daughter say? The sun is a blister overhead. If I were alive, I could not bear it. The townsfolk scene, we shall overcome while hope bleeds slowly from my mouth into the dirt that covers us all. I'm done with this dust. I'm done. I mean, it's so good. I mean, number one, the role of Persona. I don't do a lot of Persona poems. I've only done a few. But she, I think she's an expert at it, because she does so many, you know, to do the role of Persona, and especially with something like this number one could be really dangerous, right? But the way that she does it, I think, is that it's think, is masterful. And I mean, I hope people still remember this. I hope Gen Z, if they don't, I hope that it encourages them to go look up what happened. I mean, it's absolutely horrific, but I think there's certain things that she's doing in the poems of just like, you know, I was chosen to speak by the members of my body. I re looked up the case, and the police officers found, like, over 80 parts of his body strewn in that three miles. You know what I mean. But then even just have that one line, like, I'm chosen to speak, you know, by the members of my body. And even though I think what she does with questions here, right? Like, sometimes a question can do more work in a poem than actually, like, saying the thing. So they're like, who is the human in this place? You know, obviously these violent white supremacist perpetrators were treating this man like an animal, right? And then at the end, though, there's a transference that's happening, right? So it's like, who is human here? But then at the end of the poem, into the dirt that covers us all, like, at the end,

Traci Thomas 24:22

we're all going in or on, I guess, yeah.

Tiana Clark 24:27

And also, I think this moment that kind of devastates me, if I were alive, I could not bear it. You know, there's we don't know how long he lived throughout experience or when he died, but I think, just like I think for me, the one of the major points of a poem is a bridge of empathy and understanding. It brings us to that moment of a shared sorrow, shared grief, but we come away like with, I hope, a type of like empathy or tenderness or understanding about the world. And I think this poem that reminds me of this tragedy that happened, and these like the why and why. And why, like, we're still asking that now, right, aren't we?

Traci Thomas 25:03

Right? Right? Yeah, to speak to the persona poems a little bit, because there's so many in the book, as we talked about before, my poetry coach and therapist is Jose Olivares, and when I started reading this poetry collection, he sort of challenged me. And he was like, You should read it slowly over the course of the month, like, a few a day, and we can, we can talk about some of them, and, you know, so I would read a few, and then, like, send a voice memo, and be like, This is what I'm thinking. That's what I'm feeling. And after I finished just yesterday or two days ago, he was saying that one of his big takeaways was how well she personifies others in her writing, but still maintains her own voice like that she is never lost in the poems. And I had not thought of it that way, or really noticed it. I'd never even heard the term persona poem until I got to the Lorena poem, and I looked it up to make sure that the reference was the reference that I thought it was, and then I saw that it was called a persona poem. So that's definitely like not a thought that I would have had about about it, like her voice versus the taking on. But I do think that this poem, while she is embodying, you know, James bird, is that is that it does feel like a Lucille Clifton poem. It doesn't feel like someone else's poem, like, that's for sure.

Tiana Clark 26:24

What I told my students, too, whenever you write in Persona, there's always still a ghost of the self, right? That needs to be there. It's almost like that. There's Greek tragedies. I mean, you study the play like you have, you have the big play, right, the sad or the happy, but you still know there's an actor behind that mask, right?

Traci Thomas 26:40

No, right, yeah, that makes sense. But it seems like that is also really hard to do. Oh, very difficult to

Tiana Clark 26:46

do. And that's why, I think, especially in a poem like this that still was such a grieving, horrific, like, horrible, you know, act of violence. But I think that the way that she does it here is like, it breaks my heart to even have like, the talents and we shall overcome, I hope, bleeds slowly away from my mouth. I mean, I'm just like, I'm devastated by that, utterly devastated. Yeah, you know, yeah.

Traci Thomas 27:06

I mean, I think, like, a big takeaway from the collection, just even talking about with you, but even coming into this conversation, is that a lot of the things that she does are really hard, and she makes it seem really easy, whether that's like humor, short poems, Persona poems, like all these things we've talked about, I just feel like lesser poets would stumble, oh, absolutely on on so much of this. And so this collection does make clear why she is a great simply, even if even not knowing a ton about poems, even I was taking notes, like short poems seem pretty hard, yeah.

Tiana Clark 27:40

And there's also a way in which I think she's bearing witness, even through persona, it's still bearing witness to what's happening, while still having her tone, right? And I also think I saw an interview, or was reading an interview, where, you know, she had six children. A lot of people were like, you know, people always ask me why I went short home. She's like, well, you have six kids, you know. But I think that was her mode of subtraction, her mode of, like, pure distillation, right? Like, getting to the heart of it really quickly, right?

Traci Thomas 28:06

And I think that's, like, very clear in her humor, too. Her humor is very to the point it's not, you know, some people are funny, like, they tell a whole long thing, and then some people can, just like, cut you down in one line, and you're like, Damn, that's hilarious. And she's feels like the latter for sure. Yeah.

Tiana Clark 28:24

Can I look at another poem that's nearby? It's on 25 study the masters. I loved this poem. Should I

Traci Thomas 28:30

read it? This one? Yeah, I love when you read, Oh,

Tiana Clark 28:33

thanks. Study the Masters, like my aunt Timmy. It was her iron, or one like hers that smoothed the sheets. The master poet slept on home or hotel. What matters is he lay himself down on her handiwork and dreamed. She dreamed too words, some Cherokee, some Messiah and some huge in particular, as hope. If you had heard her chanting as she ironed, you would understand form and line and discipline and order and America. I just was like, going back to our conversation, I think about the traditional Western canon, and like contemporary poets now, and who is invited to the party, and who Lucille Clifton is writing for, you know, she's writing for Aunt Timmy, right? She's writing for the people, like there's an invisible labor here, right? And for the people who weren't allowed to go to MFAs or weren't, weren't able to have the privilege to study literature, to be published poets, and I like that in this this poem. It's refocusing who, who are the masters here, right? Obviously, there's probably a master slave dynamic, but I feel like Lucille Clifton is inversing that here, right? And also I just love it like, as she's singing, right? This kind of music, this, this the poetry of her body, right? You would understand form and line like you would understand craft, right? But it's in discipline and order. And then we have and that coordinating conjunction, but then that line break, and America lower case, you know, which is one of her modes. But even to have America lower case, like, Yeah, this is a very American. Same way of looking at mastery, right? You know, in literature, or even in work and labor. And I feel like she's putting those two things in conversation and making us think about that in a really interesting way. And I heard her write about that, that she wanted to make sure that, like her poems could be read in academia, and also for the janitor. That was also she wanted her poems to be we talked about accessibility last time. She wanted her poems to be accessible in that way.

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna come right back.

Traci Thomas 30:32

Okay, we are back. I wanna make sure we leave time to do the religion poems. But I had a thought that strikes me as, at one time, brilliant, and also the exact kind of thought that a like freshman poetry student would have and think that they like crack the code on poems. But as I was reading this collection, I decided that there's only two kinds of poems, and one is a grief poem and one is a love poem. Am I a 18 year old white boy who goes to Dartmouth or what, um, like, that kind of thought is like. So like, the kind of thing that someone's like. I read three poetry collections, and I feel this way, but I just felt like these. In this book, it was like their grief poems or their love poems.

Tiana Clark 31:21

I guess for me, I don't know how to separate love from grief. So they I feel like at the root of all her poems is love, and I think from that foundation of love is the grief and the sorrow, right? Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to--

Traci Thomas 31:36

So there's only one kind of poem, a love poem.

Tiana Clark 31:39

Well, this really great quote from Jericho, but I'm gonna mess it up. He basically talks about, like, you know, all, all poems, or love poems. Don't all poems have to fall in love. Don't all political poems have to, like, he kind of goes in this long, like, I see thing of, like, you know, all, all the political poems, all the love poems, other Greeks, they're all, they're all pouring into each other. I guess I don't see--

Traci Thomas 32:00

So I guess I could have a Pulitzer then. So I'm not a freshman at Dartmouth. I run me my bullets are--

Tiana Clark 32:06

Yes, give it to her now, people give her, her flowers.

Traci Thomas 32:09

Okay, interesting. I just, I think in this this reading, and I think also maybe in this political moment, the grief poems are all the ones I was the most drawn to the ones that were either about her losing people in her life, also some of the poems that felt like so of this moment, like sorrow song on on page 39 felt so right now. White Lady on page 60 felt so right now. I'll read this one, because I think this one, this one, to me, felt like, you know, I think when we read back list things we always are thinking about, like, does this stand the test of time? And this was one where I was like, does she just write this from the grave like yesterday? Yeah, sorrow song. And I'm not nearly as good as Tiana, so just go with me. Peeps, for the eyes of the children, the last to melt, the last to vaporize, for the lingering eyes of the children staring the eyes of the children of Bucha, Vald of Vietnam and Johannesburg for the eyes of the children of Nagasaki, for the eyes of the children of the Middle Passage, for Cherokee eyes, Ethiopian eyes, Russian eyes, American eyes, for all that remains of the children, their eyes staring at us, amazed to see the extraordinary evil in ordinary men. It's got my Volta. I mean, I'm just, I'm just like, is she gonna put Gaza in? Like, I was just waiting for Gaza to be in there, right? Like, and I also love, there's one part where she says, where she says, For the Cherokee eyes, the Ethiopian eyes, the Russian eyes, American eyes. And that, to me, it felt sounds like she's saying Americanized, yeah, yeah. And that just felt like that's the reading out loud piece, because I love to read poems out loud.

Tiana Clark 33:53

Well, even with other poem, again, she's using these subtle things with word but like iron, but also irony, like the irony of, you know, she's She does a lot of wordplay. No, I think that you're right. I think you're actually okay. This is where you get your Pulitzer too. Because I think there's a way in which I think maybe let's, I don't know if I believe in a poem maybe lasting forever, but I will say there is something about this poem, is as if, like every poet of their age, could keep adding to this poem. Yes, you know what I mean. And I think also what she's doing here with the eyes of like their eyes on its own, staring at us. And then we have the seizure of this visual breath, like being it's complicit, back to us. And then amazing, the extraordinary, that modifier there, that additive extraordinary, evil and extraordinary is--

Traci Thomas 34:39

Extraordinary is truly an extraordinary word. It feels so good in the mouth. It's chewy. It's like, it's a little bit tough, but like extra, like the vowel sound, and you get that, it's like, yeah, it's

Tiana Clark 34:54

yeah, I just extraordinary.

Traci Thomas 34:56

It's just short, yeah, it's just such and yeah, and. Kind of lie. You can do like extraordinary, or you can do extraordinary.

Tiana Clark 35:03

But they have that right above ordinary men.

Traci Thomas 35:07

Which is such a crap word. Yeah, ordinary doesn't feel it's the extra. I don't know there's something extraordinary is like one of my absolute favorite words. It's just so out loud, it's such a powerful word. And I feel like on the page. It doesn't really do that much. Like, when you look at extraordinary doesn't do a lot, but like, it's use. It's a useful word.

Tiana Clark 35:27

It's so useful. I think what strikes me in this book, again, it seems simple, but actually it's making me think, I think what fascist governments do is they make us seem like, These men are like, like, you're like, what? How it's like, these are ordinary men, the most ordinary men.

Traci Thomas 35:41

The most basic, I mean, yeah, I think that's the one thing when I think about, like, the Trump administration, that maybe by accident. I think by accident, he and his administration have exposed because their whole shtick is, like, we're ordinary people. They sort of have told on themselves because, like, the kinds of mistakes they make and the things that they do and the way that they say things like so plainly, it actually takes the air out of them, even though I don't think George Bush or Barack Obama or Joe Biden or any of the others presidents we've had are extraordinary, they at least pretended to be. And I feel like Trump and them are sort of telling on themselves by being like, Oh, we're just regular degular. Our suits don't fit, like we just whatever. And I feel like, I think when we look back on this moment in history, if we're lucky, lucky enough to do that, there will be some sort of a shift of, like, the the men that were supposed to be extraordinary sort of told on themselves,

Tiana Clark 36:42

Yeah, and they failed us terrifically. I think what's also interesting about this administration is how they're attacking the language, and it starts with the language, right?

Traci Thomas 36:50

And they're attacking the children, and--

Tiana Clark 36:52

The children, absolutely. And it's interesting because I think they are also attacking empathy. And I'm like, when did we lose sight of that, like, if we've lost empathy as a country, then, like, We are doomed to fail. But I think that's why I love poetry so much, is that it reminds me, like, no, the power of empathy is that's all there is, right?

Traci Thomas 37:12

Right. Well, and I guess you could also say that, like, not only is poetry about the power of empathy, but it's also clearly about the power of language. And maybe that those two things can't really be separated, yeah, I mean, I don't know maybe you can, because I think you can have empathy without having the language for it, right? Like sometimes, like a hug can go really far, or a hand hold, or a gesture that is completely silent or devoid of language. But I think politically, you can't have empathy without language. Yeah, it's not publicly.

Tiana Clark 37:46

Yeah, it's not in this book. It's in her other big book. She has another poem called Kent State, where she says, white ways are the ways of death. I always think about that a lot, and again.

Traci Thomas 37:55

I got Kent State one of my obsessions, one of my historical obsessions. I know, I think, I do think, like, a lot of her references are just so in my wheelhouse, that I'm, like, locked, locked in, um, let's do, let's do the religion poem.

Tiana Clark 38:11

Let's go there. Okay, let's go the Lucifer poems. Or is it were those ones that you were puzzled on?

Traci Thomas 38:15

Or I have the Eve poems, I have the Lucifer poems, and then I don't know the myth of Lita, but there I felt like, so okay, really quickly before we do this. So the book is structured. It starts with the new poems that I'm assuming those poems were not in any book previous, right? Those are just, they're called new poems, not because that's the name of the book, yeah. And those are from 2000 and then she goes back to the beginning, to 1988 and then works forward in time. So the last section is 1996 correct. So we go from 2019 88 work our way back to 1996 I found that my favorite poems were mostly in 2019 88 and 1996 I found that the middle sections because I sort of like folded down. This was Jose recommended, just like marking the poems that spoke to me, and just like marking them, don't stress, you could go back. And so I would, if I liked a poem a lot, I would read it a few times. If I didn't quite understand what's going on, I would read it a few times. And some of them I read once, and was like, fold. And some of them I read like, three times, and then I maybe took a note, but I didn't fold, because I didn't feel like I like, you know, whatever. But when I went back to look, it was like multiple poems in the 2019 88 and 1996 and then a sprinkling in like 1993 or 1990 Actually, none in 1993 not one. Not here. Yet be dragons. Nope, from the book of light. No, nothing.

Tiana Clark 39:43

I like that one a lot. Well, that's what I looked up the reference I had, because I was like, I just love the line. Who among us can imagine ourselves unimagined? I was just thinking about all the scrubbing of DEI right now that line, I was like.

Traci Thomas 39:54

Well, it doesn't mean that I didn't think, like there were good lines, but like, none of the poems felt like there was must be fold. Did you know I'm trying to work new ways of doing poetry. I'm trying to like I feel, I do legitimately feel like Jose is my therapist, because he's literally giving me like exercises, like, try this when you read, like, try that when you read. And I'm trying to take it really seriously.

Tiana Clark 40:16

Well, just real quick about it. We're talking about language, but just real quick on that 88 so I looked this up. I didn't know this, but I couldn't put my little nerdy notes. But apparently cartographers, when they reached the limit of a known world, they allegedly marked their maps with the rubric, Here Be Dragons. Ooh. And so it's interesting to think about that when you go to film, because so many languages have fallen off the edge of the world into the dragon's mouth, which to me, is like a metaphor for colonialism some whether it be monsters whose teeth are sharp and sparkle with lost people, lost poems, who among us can imagine ourselves unimagined? Who among us can speak with so fragile tongue and remain proud, understood? I just been thinking about, who among us can imagine ourselves unimagined, especially like with people be literally their bodies being disappeared right now, you know, and yeah, trans and black people being literally disappeared from the historical record when they're trying to unimagin us. Lucille Clifton is like, Absolutely not.

Traci Thomas 41:09

We'll see. Now, this would get a fold. I just didn't help with this, yeah, like, again, this is just like, you know, I'm not saying any of the ones I didn't fold weren't great. But anyways, sorry, no, I mean it's good. It's really good, I know.

Tiana Clark 41:21

Well, I did struggle with the end of, like, what does she meant by fragile? And then I was like, oh, yeah, the white fragility, right? Who mothers can speak so fragile tongue and remain proud. Like, how can you be so proud of yourself for what you're conquering, right? You know what I mean when you're taking away, right? What you're disappearing? How could you like, they're proud what they're doing with all these deportations. They're proud about it. How could you be proud about that?

Traci Thomas 41:42

And also, like, the fragile tongue, not just fragility, but also the sort of, like preciousness of, like, haughty language, if you think of like the conquering colonialist class of the past two of like, you know, high tea and all of these things like this, sort of, like, fragile disposition, yeah, too like that. There's something proud about being very pale skinned, right? Like to have a hat that covers your face all of that.

Tiana Clark 42:07

Yeah, but let's go to Lucifer. Okay, so I did some research about this, because I was a little confused at first. And I did grow up in the church, but I am. I was like, What are you doing, Miss Lucille. What are you doing, however. Okay, so Lucille means light. Lucifer means bearer of light. And so I think there's a way in which, actually, where Lucille is trying to merge her poetry persona with the with the kind of myth of Lucifer, the story of Lucifer. I think it's really interesting here, because with with Lot's wife, with Eve, with Lucifer, she's retelling, or with Lita, she's retelling these myths through her own portal, her own her own experiences. There was another Lucifer poem, though, that got to what I wanted to say,

Traci Thomas 42:49

Remembering the birth of Lucifer. There's like a there's like a stint of them whispered to Lucifer, yeah.

Tiana Clark 42:53

There's one where I think it kind of Oh yeah. On Page 81 Lucifer speaks in its own voice, which is funny, because it's like, kind of her voice too. But

Traci Thomas 43:02

in all of these poems like that lead up from that first Lucifer one to that lead up to the these last ones, they're all sort of in this religious vein, this whole chunk. It's like this era was like a religious the book that she pulled these from, or whatever. It's like a very religious moment. It feels like in her Yeah, yeah, storytelling.

Tiana Clark 43:20

But at the end of this poem, she says, or Lucifer, I guess, says, I became the lord of snake for Adam and for Eve, I the only Lucifer. Light bringer created out of fire. Illuminate I could, and so illuminate I did. And it's interesting to me, because that word want illumination, but also fire, which, when we think about Prometheus, right, that that knowledge from the gods. And then what did Lucifer do? Right? The snake, he's he's telling them, this is the the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is the knowledge, right? Um, but also, what happens with that? It's damnation and punishment. But also, Eve is now aware, Eve has just as much agency, right? And it's like, illuminate I could, and so Illinois, I did. And that is, to me, the role of the role of the poet. The role of the poet is to illuminate the love and the grief that you're talking about, the humor and the horror, right? And so I think there's a way in which, like that, bringer of light, Lucille Clifton, is also illuminating for us, not the horrors and the love of the world, right? I just think there should be more that word illuminate being tied to that sense of knowledge that I think is interesting. That's how I kind of read it.

Traci Thomas 44:24

For me, okay, I just, I mean, for me, I just, that's like, so not my knowledge base. And so a lot of these, like, it was hard to even know how to unpack them. Yeah, I think the thing that I noticed more than anything in a lot of the religious poems was the capitalization, because there's basically no capitalization in any of the other poems for any proper nouns or line starts or after periods or anything. But like, God is capitalized, or he is capitalized in these, in these poems. And I thought that was really interesting, because, like, Why? Why does she? Why does she choose to capitalize God and He? Actually when she doesn't choose to capitalize, you know, her her dead husband's name, or the capital I, or the first line, like she doesn't follow any other capitalization rules. And so I just was thinking, like, why is she doing it here? And I don't know if you have any insight into that. Oh, that's interesting.

Tiana Clark 45:16

Yeah. I mean, I've often thought about her role the lowercase i, and why she chose to do that. Some people have said it was a sense of, like, humility, or like, kind of like lowering oneself. But I feel so much audacity in her work. So I don't know how I feel about that, but it's interesting. I hadn't quite caught like on 73 she does capitalize God, right, um and Lucifer and Eve and Adam, all, all the proper nouns still remain lowercase, which was one of her, like, main modes, right?

Traci Thomas 45:43

She capitalizes. I think he and a few of them too. I think I took a note on that somewhere. The poem on, okay, there's a capital H, and he, on page 46 Yes, he is wearing my gram. It's called My dream about God.

Tiana Clark 45:57

I think whenever she references God, she uses a capital letters. Now I'm noticing, because it's like God, and then he she's referring to God that's capitalized. So, I mean, there's just a reference there, right?

Traci Thomas 46:05

A reference there, I would say, above all others, yeah. And do you know, like, biographically speaking, was she particularly religious? Like, was she? Do you know anything about that?

Tiana Clark 46:15

I've read a little bit about. I mean, I think she grew up in the church, I don't know, years, I think that she called herself. I think she even referred to as a two headed woman. She said that she often had like, I think she sees herself as like a conjurer woman, like she had voices speak to her. I get the sense that she definitely grew up in the church. She seems like a very like mystical, spiritual, yeah, I get a very secular, almost arcane, like mysticism from her more than I get like a, um.

Traci Thomas 46:41

Like Christian ideology. So that's what I get to, which is why I think the cap, because I thought it was obviously for God, because it's God and he that are capitalized, but I thought that seemed kind of antithetical to the sense that I get of her, because I don't think that she, she doesn't strike me in the poems that she's particularly reverential to to him or God anymore that she is to history or humanity or women or, you know, her aunt, or whoever that is. And so I did. I think that's what tripped me up about it is like, why is she choosing to capitalize God? If she doesn't have to? She's already said, I'm not, I'm not capitalizing anything. But then she's like, Okay, I am capitalizing this. So it made me think maybe she was more religious, devout than perhaps she seems on the page.

Tiana Clark 47:31

We know I grew up in the church. I don't go to church anymore, but I still have that reverence in me. I think I saw my old school. Like, I don't really like when people say Judy around me, because I'm like, nope. Like, it's like, a interesting. So I'm wondering if she still had some like old school. I want to say really quickly, though, on 74 whisper to whispered to Lucifer. It starts Lucifer six fingers. I don't if you know this. I looked it up. Lucille Clifton was born with extra fingers.

Traci Thomas 47:54

I don't know if you know this. So was I.

Tiana Clark 47:58

Then you're like, Lucille Clifton, but they just, she had her two fingers cut off.

Traci Thomas 48:02

So did I, but I still have a little nub. My dad had both. I just have one. Is it called something like polydactyl? I don't know. I don't know. I just know it's a genetic mutation. My grandmother had it, my dad had it. I had it, but my brother doesn't, and my kids don't. It's a, it's like a recessive, whatever. But my kids are obsessed with mine. They're like, what is that? I'm like, it's a finger. They're like, No, bitch, it's not they have a picture. When you were born with the I don't think so, little guy. They do it right away, sort of like an umbilical cord, yeah.

Tiana Clark 48:31

But I thought when she said Lucifer six finger, that was another way that I feel like she was merging herself with Lucifer, you know, identity in the poem. Because obviously we know that. I don't mean I don't know if Lucifer had six fingers, but, um, that was another hint to me. I was like, No, also, you and Lucille are connected.

Traci Thomas 48:46

I know another connection, another connection. Okay, before we get out of here, because we're kind of coming to the end so sad. I want to talk about the title poem, blessing the boats at St Mary's. Will you read it for us? Yes. What page is it on? It's on page 82 okay.

Tiana Clark 49:02

blessing the votes at St Mary's. May the tide that is entering even now the lip of our understanding, carry you out beyond the face of fear. May you kiss the wind then turn from it, certain that it will love your back. May you open your eyes to water, water waving forever, and may you and your innocence sail through this to that.

Traci Thomas 49:29

Okay. What do you love about it? Talk to me.

Tiana Clark 49:35

Well, okay. Did some research, poaching her time. She taught at St Mary's College of Maryland for very long, is this like a graduation poem, and so she did read it at commencement. And so apparently, I guess, in Maryland, they have a thing called blessing of the fleet, and it's like honoring some English ancestors that came over here, or whatever. But I love that she's kind of taking that ritual of the blessing of, you know that fleet of the boats and the boat is now a metaphor, right? It's taking from this. Oracle event, but for our own lives, right? The journeys that we all take in our lives. And I just, I also love that, that so it's made the tide and made the wind, these really uncontrollable forces. That's what she's blessing. She's blessing the kind of like uncontrollable forces that we actually have no control over. Um, but she's the blessing is, I hope that they will love your back, like, wherever those things are pushing you right, like you are now the boat you are now the one being pushed out into whatever journey is ahead of you. And I love this line, this line break of like water, water wavering, and again, all that beautiful alliteration with the music there. And then again, it ends abstractly. But I love it, of like, may you and your innocence sail through this to that like. Again, it's so simple, but it's she executes it and such, to me, a masterful way of like. It's vague, but we know exactly what she's or we can all substitute, like a mad libs of whatever journey in our life, of like, you know that that difficulty, next difficulty that that journey, you know, graduation to a new career, wedding, babies. You know, there's so many things that you could like, plug in there like a like a life Mad Libs, right?

Traci Thomas 51:03

Yeah and yeah. It definitely feels like a all purpose poem, in some ways, like that. You could turn to it at any time in your life, when you felt like you or someone you know, was like embarking on something, anything I love, I love the May the May the whatever this is like, again, such a random reference. But I think that's the thing that's cool about poetry is, like any random reference that pops into your head when you read a poem, like you could make it work kind of thing in a way that, like in non fiction, it's sort of like, okay, we're not talking about that, but one of my favorite musicals is Fiddler on the Roof, and they do the Sabbath prayer, and it's, you know, May the Lord protect and defend you. And as soon as I started this poem, I just wrote down a prayer, like it just feels like such a prayer, yeah? Because, I mean, obviously we know, because it's blessing, but I feel like a prayer is slightly different than a blessing, right? Like a blessing is I'm, I'm, I'm saying this is so right? But then when you say May, that's sort of asking, and I feel like a prayer is more of a request, yeah? And so I feel like, like there's some sort of authority and a blessing. But the way that this poem is written, it also feels like she's, she's hoping this for, for her, for her blessed or like she's praying for this or asking for this.

Tiana Clark 52:23

Yeah, there's just, like, a mode of supplication,

Traci Thomas 52:25

Yeah, like some, like, a little bit of humbleness to the to this. And I think so I really liked that. I think May is another word that I think is really powerful.

Tiana Clark 52:35

I love that. Yeah, no, I do definitely think that, that that humility, with that lowercase Ness, yeah, there's some, there's some. There's a conversation there that I think is important.

Traci Thomas 52:44

And cause also, it implies that this is this probably, like, might not happen, like the wind at your back might not be, or might capsize loving, yeah, like you might not. I'm asking for this because this is not the case necessarily, you might end up with rough waters or like, you might not sail from this to that. You might get stuck in the this forever. You might not, you know, like so I think there's also that piece of this that it feels like a humbling before something bigger, and in this case, maybe the water, the ocean, the biggest thing we've got on Earth.

Tiana Clark 53:20

Um, I don't know if we want to do this before we leave. We leave, but I the the incest poems. I mean, it's a very heavy theme, but is it too heavy?

Traci Thomas 53:31

I have time as long as you have time.

Tiana Clark 53:33

Well, I just didn't notice it, and then when I reread it, it completely impacted me. I just want to have a big content warning, though, because I feel like it's Which poem. So on page 15, there's actually a whole series here I want to hit so the moon child.

Traci Thomas 53:49

I folded that one down.

Tiana Clark 53:51

I mean, this broke my heart, right, you know, but I didn't understand it first. But then when I reread this poem, and I was just like, heartbroken, you know, because it's like the girls talking about, oh, our first kisses. And then the who is teaching you, how do you say my father, they might run me a pacola, right? Yeah, from the moon's eye. And then the moon is queen of everything. She rules the oceans, rivers rain. When I'm asked whose tears these are always blaming the moon, and the moon is this silent witness that is not helping this child. The moon is witnessing everything. She said, You were the queen of everything. You have all this power, but you, but you know you cannot protect me, which is fascinating, because then, when we get to the poem that's way towards end of her life, which hold on, let me see if I can find it. It's about her mother. When she passes. Um, yeah, on page 125, what did she know? When did she know it? Which is interesting to me. So what this this is from the earlier section. This is like, how many years? About? Maybe, like 20 years, which is to say, for your writers out there, it takes a long time for the. These poems to come, but in the evenings, when it was a soft tap tap into the room, the cold curve of the sheet arced off the fingers sliding in and the hard clench against the wall before and after all the cold air, cold edges, why the little girl never smiled? They're supposed to know everything our mothers. What did she know, when did she know it? And so there's something to me about the moon child. And then also the mother. Now, the implication of like, Mom, you're supposed to protect me, Mom, you're supposed to know, right? And then it's, what did she know? When did she know it? Which also is the title, right? So that just devastated me utterly. And then the shape shifter poems, which are about, you know, the man coming into the room that's turning into a werewolf. And the werewolf, how is the werewolf changed by the moon, right? And to me, like this, you know, moon that's changing this man that's hurting this girl. And those shapes, your poems like utterly, just destroyed me. And then on page 55 the last thing like the poem at the end of the world, is the poem that little girl breathes into her pillow, the one she cannot tell, the one there was no one to hear. This poem is a political. Poem is a war. Poem is a universal poem, but is not about these things. This poem is about one human heart. This poem is a poem at the end of the world, which is the little girl's heart, wanting to be saved, wanting to be rescued from this horror, right? I don't know. I just was like, seeing that whole theme throughout, was just like, and seeing how, basically her whole life, she's reckoning with these things, right? And then even with that Fox at the end, that fox that keeps coming to her door--

Traci Thomas 56:38

Leaving Fox on 113 that's on 109.

Tiana Clark 56:41

Telling, telling our, oh, there's all these Fox, yeah, there's yeah, there's a bunch of--

Traci Thomas 56:45

Telling our stories. And then Fox, the coming. Fox, dear Fox, leaving.

Tiana Clark 56:48

Yeah, but she's this child, I'll tell you now, it was not the animal blood I was hiding from. It was the poet in her the poet and the terrible stories she could tell, right? Like we all have terrible stories that we could or could not tell, and that's why it's so hard. The job of the poet, to me, is the job of the witness.

Traci Thomas 57:04

And not just Could, could and could, not like able to, but also like, could actually tell it. Well, right? Like that, she had to get to 1996 to be able to tell some of these poems.

Tiana Clark 57:18

Which I try to tell my students, because I'm like, Look, I go, you all are just now right beginning to write these things. For example, I never met my dad. It took me, like, probably 15 years till I ever felt like I could write that poem, just to give yourself that time and space that the difficult content takes time to work through,

Traci Thomas 57:34

right? I mean, I as you're going through these poems, I'm like, How did I miss this theme. I did notice it in some of them, like in moon child, obviously, but I think I didn't quite connect it throughout, I don't know, because, like, there's obviously these poems, and there's like, the religious poems we talked about, and then there's also the, like, everyone in her life dying poems, George sales, which I also loved that one. Oh, my God, I love that one. That was the first poem in the book that I was like, yes, like, that was the first one that really like. I was like, Okay, we're cooking, um, and so I think I just maybe kind of like, didn't, I didn't, I didn't connect them. But now I'm like, of course, it's so obvious, it's so striking.

Tiana Clark 58:19

We get to the Lorena poem, because now you have that knowledge of, like, again, an act of retribution, about an act of vengeance. And if you know the storyline, or Bobbitt, she was heavily abused, yeah, yeah, by her husband, raped by her husband. And you know, but how it was portrayed in the media, of, like, this hysterical, crazy, right?

Traci Thomas 58:37

That she was, like, psychotic and a violent, like nut job, and also in a lot of ways. And at the time, she was portrayed as, like, hyper sexual, which is really interesting, like that, she was like a vixen in a lot of ways, which is like, so crazy.

Tiana Clark 58:53

I think, for like, an Ecuadorian immigrant woman, yeah, right. Yeah, for sure. You know, I think what I'm noticing, too, when you're going back to that real persona, the poems that Lucille decides acting persona, you can tell there's an engine of she's one. She is feeling some kind of connection or some kind of empathy towards that character or person, right? Lucifer, you know, Fred, her husband that passed, her mom, the, you know, the Reina Bob. It's people that she's wanting to like, she feels a kinship to, or somehow, yeah.

Traci Thomas 59:21

Yeah. And I think, just to kind of go back to your point, the Lorena Baba poem, I didn't remember this, but I'm looking now, is the second to last poem, which is to say, if we're on this journey about this sexual violence that she experienced as a child, that the final word on that, at least in this collection, is chop it off. Bitch. Like, you know, like that. She's like, and this is where the story ends. It doesn't end with like, you know, what did my mom know? Where did she know? Like, but it ends with, and then sometimes you take the kitchen cheers, you know. And then sometimes, you know. And I just love that it ends. I thought it could fly. So great, because that poem is funny. Um. Um, okay, we have to get out of here. But before we do, can I just read the last poem? I just love it so much. I want to just get it on the official stacks record. It's called heaven. My brother is crouched at the edge, looking down. He has gathered a circle of cloudy friends around him, and they are watching the world. I can feel them there. I always could. I used to try to explain to him the afterlife, and he would laugh. He is laughing now, pointing toward me. She was my sister. I feel him say even when she was right, she was wrong. I just love it. I just I love it. I love it. I just imagine there are so many poems to me that feel difficult and confusing and a lot of work has to go into them. And then there are so many poems that I feel like are very obvious and clear, but are not enjoyable or exciting. And this poem, to me, takes exactly zero work and also feels so like I just, I don't know, it feels so full and good. And I think that to me, I think those are the poems that I love the most, the ones that are like, there's no pretense here, like the words are the words, and also the words are working in a way you would never think that these few words, or these kind of words could in this way. And I just think so, so good, because you asked me last time what it was that I loved about Ellen bass, and I think it's that same thing. The words are not she's not trying to trick me. No, she's not trying to make me do work too hard. She's just saying, let's just put these words together and let them do things to the reader.

Tiana Clark 1:01:34

Yeah, there's a complex simplicity. Yes, and I think that she wanted her work to stand for, again, the whole of the human experience, all of it, I think it also, I mean, put quotations on the word plain, but I think there's a there's a colloquial she's talking to us. It feels like very like direct. I just want to say really quickly, I know it's at the end, but I read an interview about the fox poems, and a lot of people were saying what they thought it was. She actually said for her, it actually was a real memory, like it was a real thing that happened. This fox kept on showing up at her doorstep, and they kept on having these like moments. And she kept writing about the fox showing up at her door. But actually, for her, she said the fox stood for desire that, you know, to be over 60, to feel like your body. She had so many health issues, you know, her body's kidney failure and cancer. And she felt kind of, I think, in one of the poems even says, like, unfuckable, I haven't, you know, and I think she felt the sense of desire, kind of like the fox representing this, like, you know, distance with desire that I thought was actually, like, really striking to, like, read that and to experience the metaphor in that way.

Traci Thomas 1:02:38

Yeah, and we didn't even get to talk about all the like ailment poems, if you will.

Tiana Clark 1:02:42

I know, of the cancer. Yeah, the cancer so much.

Traci Thomas 1:02:45

The dialysis one is so good, yes.

Tiana Clark 1:02:49

Yeah. But I think this is such a great introduction that if you like her work, Oh, I love what you said. If you've noticed that you've liked certain poems or intersections, and go get that book. Yeah, that book waiting for you, right?

Traci Thomas 1:02:56

Yeah. I think I want to do the 1996 one and the 1988 one, because I really like those. Okay, everybody, this was a dream, Tiana. This was, I mean, not to play favorites, but I think so far, this is my favorite poetry episode we've done, because, I don't know, for a lot of reasons, but mostly because you're fantastic, and you did all the nerdy poetry research. But don't tell the others. Okay, don't tell me. Listen, I never, we never, Jose's never done a poetry episode with me, but I he will one day.

Tiana Clark 1:03:27

Well, you have the best poetry teacher in the world. I know.

Traci Thomas 1:03:30

I mean, I feel like I've collected so many of you now, because I'll be coming to you with poetry questions too. Don't worry, everybody else listening at home, you can get both Tiana's books or scorched earth and blessing the boats. If you didn't end up reading it, you can get it wherever you got your books. It should be said, Blessing the Boats was a National Book Award winner as well. So this book, it was a banger in 2000 when it came out, and it still bangs 25 years later. And then the last thing I'll say is, if you're listening now, keep listening to the end so that you can find out what our May book club pick will be, Tiana. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Traci and everyone else. We will see you in the Stacks. All right, y'all that does it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Tiana Clark for joining the show. Now it's time for what you've all been waiting for. The announcement of our May book club pick. We are going to be reading a modern classic by a living legend. We are reading Devil in a Blue dress by Walter Mosley. It's set in 1948 Los Angeles. It is the first book in the Easy Rawlings series. It has made space for black detectives in the literary world for decades to come. I cannot wait to read this with you all. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, May 28 and you can tune in next Wednesday, May 7, to find out who our book club guest will be for this pic. If you love the podcast, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the Stacks Pack and make sure you're subscribed to my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Be sure to subscribe to The Stacks wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review for more from The Stacks.Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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