Ep. 372 Apropos of Nothing, There’s This Book with Frederick Joseph

Written By Guest User

This week on the Stacks, we are joined by author and essayist, Frederick Joseph, to discuss his newest book (and his first foray into YA fiction), This Thing of Ours. He shares with us about how he’s able to write every day without writer's block, and why he decided not to sell his books in Target. We also spend time exploring Frederick’s favorite and least favorite classic novels, and why he mentions so many of them in his own book.

The Stacks Book Club pick for May is Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. We will discuss on Wednesday, May 28th with Kara Brown returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Frederick Joseph 0:00

I'd say that black Americans have the most expertise in this country when it comes to white American culture. Oh, right, sure. And so it and so to have your expertise about your own culture, and also the the sort of dominant white American culture as a writer, as a musician, as a as a visual artist, so on and so forth. It gives you this disability that no one else has. It's not just that Toni Morrison is phenomenal. It's that she's also her work is in conversation. Whereas there might be a white author who's a really strong writer, but their work's not in conversation about anything. Part of the reason why I actually wrote certain things in this book, because it's, it's sort of a bit of a flex that I know your I know yours just as well as I know mine.

Traci Thomas 0:54

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I get to welcome to the podcast Frederick Joseph. Frederick is a writer who has written non fiction for adults and children. He's given poetry a try, and now he is delving into the world of young adult novels. His newest book, a New York Times bestseller. This thing of ours follows a young black teen named Ozzy who attends a majority white prep school. He was on the basketball team until he had a career ending injury, at which point he shifted his talents to the Writing Program, which gets caught in the crosshairs of the book banning anti woke movement. Today, Frederick and I talk about the all at onceness of writing in the YA space. We talk about why Frederick wanted to pull his books from Target and his favorite sad boy musician. Don't forget our book club pick for May is Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. Kara Brown will be back on Wednesday, May 28 to discuss this book with me, so be sure to read along and then tune in everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes, and let me just say this to you, Are you subscribed to the stacks? You definitely should be. So wherever you're listening to my voice right now, make sure you click the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you love the show and you want even more access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks pack community, and you can get my newsletter sent directly to your inbox by going to tracithomas.substack.com you get a bunch of perks, like bonus episodes, access to our Discord, virtual book club meetups, and a lot of hot takes, plus, you get to know that you're supporting making this show possible. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with Frederick Joseph. You Yeah. Okay, everybody. I'm very excited. I am joined today by Frederick Joseph his new book. It's his first novel. It's a YA novel. It's called This Thing of Ours, and I'll just say this. I'll just say it right now. You guys know I don't really fuck with YA novels. Okay, it's not really my shit. Unfortunately, for all of you, you're gonna have to read this book because I liked it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everybody you know, I only usually am telling you about like a Jason Reynolds YA book. I've recently read mahogany Brown. Really liked her stuff. And now I've read this and I liked it, so maybe I do like ya I don't know we can unpack this more, but for now, Frederick, welcome to the Stacks.

Frederick Joseph 3:26

I'm glad to be here, and I'm also very happy you like that. You're one of maybe five people who I was like crossing my fingers. So...

Traci Thomas 3:35

Who else is on the list I gotta know now, who's my competition slash community?

Frederick Joseph 3:40

Yeah, yeah. Cree miles, so Cree, Duh, yeah, yeah, of course. And then, honestly, I'm still waiting on Jason Derek Barnes and Sabaa Tahir.

Traci Thomas 3:55

Okay, this is like, okay, it's like me and Cree and then titans of industry. So thank you for including Cree, and I will say thank you on Chris, we have though crease slightly more Titan ish than I am, so I'm just, I'm just honored to be here, honestly, thank you. Oh,

Frederick Joseph 4:11

please no. And for all of them, Derek blurbed it. I didn't ask for a blurb from Jason or from saba. I just got them copies, so I'm just hoping that they enjoy it.

Traci Thomas 4:22

So okay, I love this. Let's, okay, let's, let's talk about you. Let's talk about the book. Can you, in about 30 seconds, tell people about this thing of ours?

Frederick Joseph 4:31

Yeah, so this thing of ours centers the story of OSS Brown. He is one of the top basketball players in the country, and it sort of unpacks what happens to sort of a young black person who doesn't serve, you know, sort of white spaces because of his talent with his body anymore, right? Because he gets, he gets hurt, and he has to, you know, figure out who he is, not just internally, but externally. In a very white space, white world, white school. And he finds his voice through literature and through his own gift of writing, and finds community, largely through the efforts of the black woman in his life helping him find that through again books and books and writing. Did you play basketball? Yes, yeah, I played basketball, I played football, I played just about everything. I was sort of like the quintessential, you know, urban, urban mythos of a black youth, if you would. Where did you grow up? Yonkers, where the book takes place? Yep. Yonkers, New York.

Traci Thomas 5:35

Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. You have famously written poetry, nonfiction for adults. Why did you want to write? Why a fiction? Why now?

Frederick Joseph 5:47

Yeah, so it's interesting. This book came to me when I actually was watching TV one night, and my first book, which was a non fiction for for young people, was that a school district in Houston actually spent $30,000 to ban the book the black friend. And I said, you know, this is really funny, but also I think I want to write about book bans, but I didn't want to write a non fiction book about book bands. I didn't want to write an essay. I was like, I think there's a novel here. And so, yeah, I just started working on that novel, and the characters sort of just came to me in my sleep. I just, I fell in love with them from a dream.

Traci Thomas 6:33

Really, who were you thinking of as your audience? Like, why did you want to write a book about book banning for younger people?

Frederick Joseph 6:39

I you know, it's interesting, because as much as you don't like ya, I think of ya as actually being this very adult sort of space as well, right?

Traci Thomas 6:52

It is, yeah, yeah. Talk about that, because it's a little bit weird to me. Yeah. It also makes sense.

Frederick Joseph 6:59

Yeah. It makes a lot of sense for people who, I mean, we understand sort of many things, and so we can get more into that. But, you know, the audience, for me was one young people, so that they feel empowered, right, to actually stand up, not just against book bands, but sort of like the litany of things that are happening in society. I wanted young people to see, especially the character Naima, I would say, more than anyone who's just this beautiful sort of hodgepodge of all the brilliant black women that I've I have in my life, and also have known throughout, you know, my sort of life thus far. And so I want them to feel empowered. But also adults. I think adults need to read this book, because there's so much to be centered in the conversation around parenting, around empowering young people, and also just sort of like how we're showing up in this moment in time that we're in. Because the book is awkwardly timely, timely, excuse me.

Traci Thomas 7:57

Yeah, and it's set like now there's a reference to church girls by Beyonce. So I think maybe it's set in 2023 does that feel right to you, or is it now?

Frederick Joseph 8:07

Yeah, it's 2023 we tried to do as good of a job as we could removing some of the specific dates, but yeah, around 23 Yep.

Traci Thomas 8:14

Well, I mean, there's events that happen. So like, we know what happens post George Floyd, because there's a George Floyd, you know, like, and there's a character sings church girl. So I'm like, Okay, well, it had to be after summer 2022 like, working our way through the school year, we get to New Year. So I was like, you know, I'm unlike Cree, she and I have talked about this a lot. I did not know that people read books and just let it wash over them, and they're not trying to, like, figure out what happens next, or figure out what's going on, or figure out when it is or where it is. I only read novels like an actual detective, so like, if there is something that does, I'm like, Well, wait a second, I thought they were 17. Nope, they gotta be 16. Because, like, I'm like, trying to figure out every little thing. So I had, I had put the book in 2022, but then with the church girl reference, and then the time of year that it was when they were singing the song. I'm like, Okay, well, it had to, you know, I'm like, Really, but really being crazy, like, with your book, but it checks out. Anyways. I don't even know how I got on that.

Frederick Joseph 9:10

But you know, I mean, that makes sense, though. I mean, for the work that you do, which is also why I think I was so nervous about you reading the book. Well, one because you're very honest about books, which I appreciate, but also because you have a critical lens to how and why things make sense, and it's one of the reasons I was excited to be in conversation with you, because I've heard you do that before, right? Just like, well, this doesn't really tie into that, and if this then that. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I dig that.

Traci Thomas 9:43

Okay, so let me flip this on you. I've never asked an author this, but since, since you were nervous, I'm gonna put you on the hot seat. What were you nervous specifically about me reading this book? Were there things that you were like, Traci is not gonna like this, or I'm nervous she's not gonna get this. Or like, what? Basically, what are your insecurities with the book?

Frederick Joseph 10:00

yeah? So I Well, there's a few one. I was hoping that I struck a balance of sort of like honest conversations, very intersectional conversations around class, race I tackle a lot in the book. Yeah, I have a question about that, yeah. But I also wanted to feel like a good, enjoyable novel where there's still hope and there's love and things like that. So one, if I didn't strike the balance, I knew you would call, call that out. And then two, I, it's my, it's my debut novel. I've never written anything published long form fiction, right? So it's, it's not easy, right? You have to, you have to sort of keep up a certain level that then just, you know that maybe the intro is good, but then, you know, it just doesn't stick the landing in the middle, and maybe, you know, so and so forth. And I knew that if anyone was going to be honest about that, it would be you.

Traci Thomas 10:58

So yeah, my reputation is getting out of my control. Actually, I gotta, I gotta rail it back in I feel like I'm intimidating people. No, I think you do strike a balance between sort of, I mean, one of the things I wanted to ask you about is like, there's a lot packed into this book, which, on the one hand, I think is really difficult to do, and on the other hand, I feel like is sometimes missing in books that are targeted for young people, that they have to be streamlined, but for the audience, this is not spoilers. I'm just going to run off a few things that are in this book that you might be like, how is it all in there? So we talked already about, like, black athlete who is no longer, quote, unquote, valuable to white spaces because of his injury. There's also black kids, brown kids at predominantly white institutions. There's book banning, there's also censorship, there's protests, there's police files, like there's all of these things that feel extremely timely, but I will say that none of them felt like they weren't grounded in the story, or like it felt like you were trying to do the most. Because definitely sometimes I'm like, Okay, babe, we get it, like you don't have to do everything. So to that fear, I think that you did, did a good job with that.

Frederick Joseph 12:11

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I think for me, the honest truth of how I did that, why I did it, was spending time with young people, right? I spent a lot of time with young people. I my my other books give me an opportunity to visit high schools and middle schools, and this is what kids are going through, what they're talking about, right? Like, we shouldn't lie about that, right? So on any given day, the same news that we're seeing, the same things that we're thinking about, there's sort of this hyper awareness that the young people have now that we didn't necessarily have when we were younger, because of social media, because of sort of the digital landscape. And so I wanted to capture that like, this is, what a day, what a week. You know, the book takes place over the course of months. So if someone was to tell me that, like, if you have a black girl in your book, and there's no and there's no massage and noir over the course of months, right? If you have, you know, sort of like queer youth in your book, and there's no homophobia that takes place over the course of six months. Nothing homophobic, not what's happened to them, right? Like in this extremely homophobic, extremely racist society, that, to me, is not honest writing, and I think that a lot of that, for me comes from, you know, my favorite writers, right? Especially in this space, you know, again, Jason Reynolds, being one of them. You know, Angie Thomas, Nick stone, IBS, a boy, right? You have to have the honest conversations for the book to be worthwhile. In my personal opinion.

Traci Thomas 13:36

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's definitely right. One of the pieces of the of the book is this creative writing class. It's, it's like a bonus class. It's like a special workshop, basically. And in it, I'm not gonna give away plot, so I'm gonna ask this question sort of broadly. But in it, the kids are assigned both books from of people from like, you know, whose work have been excluded in traditionally white spaces, marginalized people, however, people of global majority, however, you want to say it, and then they're also assigned books by like white canonical, quote, unquote, great American writers, Twain Steinbeck. You know who the fuck I'm talking about. I want to ask you, Frederick, I want to know which books by the white greats you particularly love and which ones you particularly hate, and also the same, which books by the non white greats are greats who are great for from other groups that you particularly love and you particularly hate. Ooh, you didn't think I was gonna ask about the ones you love your face. You were like, oh shit, there's gotta be some.

Frederick Joseph 14:50

No, there are some. So I I'll give you the ones I love. And I don't know that he's a sort of great per se, but I do enjoy some. His writing, one book in particular, Jonathan Franz in freedom, was a huge--

Traci Thomas 15:05

I hate that book so much, deeply, deeply I hate that book. I'm so excited. Okay, talk about why you love it.

Frederick Joseph 15:11

So it was, for me, one of the mind you, I'm probably showing my age, where people could kind of place me a bit. I read that when I was in college, right? And so it was this sort of like generational family drama. And I just liked that that was tackled. It felt like watching a really messy version, or reading a really messy version of like, this is us, or something like that. It's deeply problematic, and it's racist at points, and misogynist, all the things that, quite frankly, Jonathan Franzen is, but Right, but it's also, you know, as parts of it, I was like, okay, I can see what he was trying to do here. And I'm gonna probably do a black people's version of that at some point. Just better. Yes, okay, and so. But in terms of, I also enjoy, I enjoy Mark Twain. I do enjoy Mark Twain. I was actually just watching this Ken Burns documentary on him for like the 40th time.

Traci Thomas 16:10

Are you gonna read the churn out? No, no, you don't love it that much. No, no, I make a Hamilton musical of him.

Frederick Joseph 16:19

Right, right. No, I and right now, you know, I'm only really reading authors of color. I just because, you know that, again, the Canon is so we read all of those things, right? If you, if you were in any English class in America, especially, like I would imagine that you having such a love for literature, you're probably in AP English. And really,

Traci Thomas 16:41

I'm a dumb, dumb, no offense to people who are in AP English, you're you're smart, you're beautiful. I was a dumb,

Frederick Joseph 16:47

okay, well, you know, the sort of typical AP English, I went through it all right? And when I was and when I was there, we never got to read, you know, Toni Morrison, we never got to read, you know, James Baldwin and so on and so forth, right? Sort of who we like Lord now, but it wasn't a thing. So I'm trying to go back and even books like home by Toni Morrison, I never read home, right?

Traci Thomas 17:11

I never read Toni Morrison before I started this podcast.

Frederick Joseph 17:14

See, see, this is exactly the point. Um, so I gave you, I tell you what I hate. Oh, I hate Hemingway. I absolutely despise Ernest. I've never

Traci Thomas 17:23

read Hemingway, so I've never read most of the books that people read in high school, like white, black, Korean or otherwise. I, for the most part, I did. We did read Gatsby. We did read To Kill a Mockingbird, and then Shakespeare, which I love, no Hemingway. I read the pearl in fourth grade, the Steinbeck, little, tiny Steinbeck, because I'm from California, don't remember a thing, but never read any other Steinbeck, like most of the references that people have of either, like I had this great teacher, and we read The Bluest Eye. Didn't do that, but I also we read The Awakening by Kate Chopin, or whatever, one of my least favorite books I've ever read.

Frederick Joseph 18:04

Same. And it's interesting because I, I think so, being from the Europe, I'm specifically from Westchester. So Yonkers is sort of like the bowels of Westchester.

Traci Thomas 18:15

I've been to Yonkers, really? Yeah. What were you doing at Yonkers? What? There's that, like a movie theater there, and like a rock climbing place. Okay, my husband, now, he went to medical school in the Bronx, and so really far up, really far up in the Bronx, and so it was sort of close to Yonkers. So that's sort of, like, where we would go.

Frederick Joseph 18:34

Oh, okay, so you sort of, you get what I'm saying in terms of, like, yeah, there's, there's Westchester County, and then there's like, Yonkers and Mount Vernon, right? And so and so. West Chester is interesting, because for those who don't know, Westchester is one of the wealthiest counties in all of America, and there's this sort of coastal, elitist, high brow obnoxiousness to it when you're in certain spaces. But I think that Yonkers and Mount Vernon attempt to tap into some of that, and so we really had to read the sort of like canonical white male others, right? Like it was like there was no way to be intellectual if you hadn't. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 19:16

I see interesting. Yeah, I didn't, luckily, didn't have that, but also I feel like I missed out on a lot of things. In some ways, I've sort of like, am mad that I didn't read some of those things, because I am now going back and reading, not only like the Black and Brown and queer grades, but also just like the white grades, because I'm just like, too many. I'll tell you. I'll tell you how it really came about the beginning of this year, Saeed Jones and I read Toni Morrison's goodness in the literary imagination, and we talked about it on the show as like counter program, programming for the inauguration. And one of the things she is talking about is how goodness shows up in all of these other books by. By the great whites. I think she talks about Charles Dickens or something. And it occurred to me, and I think I'd been like, milling around on this, that I actually couldn't, I actually can't be the best version of myself and do the work that I do if I don't understand the references and the cultural touchstones that other people are working with, even if they hate them, like Toni Morrison wasn't like Charles Dickens is amazing, but I know that she was reading Shakespeare. I know that she was reading Dickens. I know that she was reading Hemingway, and she was responding to it, and I can't see what she was doing as clearly if I don't understand what she's responding to and working through. So as an adult, I'm now going back and reading a lot of these books, not necessarily for like, enjoyment or thinking they're going to be great and open anything up to me, but so that I have that information, which is really different than assigning it to kids as like, this is what good writing is, but it is something that I'm doing right now. So I was, like, feeling, you know, I'm definitely feeling it. It's changed my reading life a lot.

Frederick Joseph 20:59

You know, it's interesting you say that, because I actually also think that that's what makes black people so special when it comes to being able to do certain things, because, like, whether it's artistic, artistically, or in like, a marketing space, or just anything that sort of has to understand another community. Because I'd say that black Americans have the most expertise in this country when it comes to white American culture. Oh, right, sure. And so it and so to have your expertise about your own culture and also the sort of dominant white American culture as a writer, as a musician, as a as a visual artist, so and so forth. It gives you this, this disability that no one else has, right? And that's what you're kind of speaking to. So like, it's not just that Toni Morrison is phenomenal, it's that she's also her work is in conversation. Whereas, there might be a white author who's a really strong writer, but their work's not in conversation about anything, right?

Traci Thomas 22:01

It's certainly non conversation with Toni Morrison, right, exactly. And so it's not in conversation with our greats, yes, yes.

Frederick Joseph 22:09

And I think that's part of the reason why I actually wrote certain things in this book, because it's, it's sort of a bit of a flex that I know your I know yours just as well as I know mine,

Traci Thomas 22:19

Right, right, right? Right, right, and that's the flex that I'm personally working towards. I need to know. I need to know more. Okay, so in the book on page 59 you have a line talking about creative writing, where you say, the best creative writing is true writing. Can you say more about this?

Frederick Joseph 22:39

Yeah, I think that one is gonna sound sort of Woo, woo, I suppose. But everything is just sort of made up, right? Like, quite literally, where you should use a comma, where you should use a semicolon, how you should you know what adjectives you should use, so on and so forth. And that's what I think is the most important thing to understand about creative writing, that when you come onto the page, the most important thing that you can do for a reader is be honest. I don't care about like, obviously, like, in the context of being a professional writer, I do care about punctuation and things of that nature. But when I walk away from writing something, and when I talk to young people about writing, did you give something to that page? Did your pen say something honest? Were you true about the world around you? I think that's also what separates that's what separates the greats from from lack thereof. I think you can learn to write right. You can truly learn and develop the skill, the talent of sharing in a way that resonates on a sort of like Soul and spiritual level. That's something that can't be taught. You have to be willing to be honest to do that.

Traci Thomas 23:55

Yeah, I like that a lot, because I also think, I mean, certainly with me, but I think even maybe more so with young people, the bullshit meter is just through the roof, like the second something doesn't feel honest or true for young people and myself. I guess, young at heart, young in mind, it's like it becomes almost like paralyzing, like I can't get through it. If I feel like you're lying to me, or I start to resent you, or I start to just nitpick every little thing, whereas if the thing feels true, if it feels honest, if it feels urgent, I can forgive things that I maybe don't like, or I can like be like. This part was weird, but generally, they did what they tried to do. And I think, I think you're right, but to be more specific, how does that pertain, specifically to creative writing? Like, why is it the best creative writing, and not just the best writing in general? Is true writing.

Frederick Joseph 24:52

So I think the best creative writing is so writing in general, it depends on, sort of, like. You're trying to accomplish is that a creative is create is a spiritual journey, right? In my personal opinion, right? Like creative writing is this, it's something that is so rooted in the depths of humanity, right? And the best thing that you can do in this life as a human is live true to yourself. And so if you can do that on the page, as if creative writer, like, if I'll give you a really good example of someone mahogany, l Brown, right, just just my she's a sister of mine. Love her to death. But even if she wasn't her as a creative writer, it feels like her, right? Like, there's, it feels like her spirit. It feels like her soul, like when she comes to a page, not just in sort of this, again, the skills that she's developed and understanding, sort of how to write, and she can write an essay, she Yes, yes, yes. But when she writes in this, this, this way, right? There's, there's things she's accomplishing in her, in her work that are so mind numbingly interesting, right? How she tackles them? Because she's mind numbingly interesting. If you sit with her, it feels like her, so like her creativity just shines in that way. If, and I hope that makes sense what I'm saying right now, since, again, it sounds a little Woo, woo, I suppose, but, but does that? Does that sort of make sense?

Traci Thomas 26:23

It does. And she's such a good example, because I was lucky enough to get to do have lunch with her and a few other women writers during a WP this year. And I never met mo before, and she comes to the table, and I'm like, Oh, I'm in love with this person. Like, this is just a fantastic human. And the next day, she brought me a copy of her newest book, a bird in the air means that we can still breathe. And I read it, I just finished it this week, and I immediately text her and I said, you know, this is really good, because you really capture all these different characters and their voices, but it really feels like you still like it still doesn't feel like you're not there. It feels like you're inside the soul of these characters. And something, someone similarly said something to me, Jose Olivares, the poet, we were talking about Lucille Clifton's poetry, and he was talking about her persona poems, and saying her persona poems so accurately, like tap into this other voice, but they always feel like Lucille Clifton poems. And I hadn't picked up on that because I'm not particularly good at reading poetry, yet. That's new for me, but having him say that to me, I think again, is speaking to what you're saying, of like the true honesty of the thing is, is there because it is infused by the person, if they're really being true and honest?

Frederick Joseph 27:49

Absolutely, I think another example to use really quickly for any especially for the young people who will listen to this. Kendrick Lamar. Kendrick Lamar is one of the greatest creative writers in history, him and Frank Ocean, I think there's so they're so honest, right? I mean, they're so honest.

Traci Thomas 28:10

I don't like Frank Ocean though. Oh, okay, it's not for me. It's too sad, boy, I it's just a little too sad for me. Sorry, I don't even I like Forrest Gump.

Frederick Joseph 28:22

You know what's so funny? I I can't wait till the day we get to, like, actually sit in person and truly meet, because I'm known for having hot takes. I just don't necessarily share all of them online.

Traci Thomas 28:34

My editor, Christian's gonna be so mad about this one, because he really, I'm sure he loves Frank Ocean. He's got big, Frank Ocean, sad boy energy too.

Frederick Joseph 28:42

That is a wild, oh, that's just, I'm so sick.

Traci Thomas 28:47

He's not good. I don't like, No, I get it.

Frederick Joseph 28:50

And I guess not everything's for everyone except for Frank Ocean.

Traci Thomas 28:57

I'm just, I'm never in a Frank Ocean mood.

Frederick Joseph 28:59

That's so funny. I'm, I'm a brooding, melancholy personally, yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'm absolutely sad--

Traci Thomas 29:07

When he's like, Kendrick, yes, obviously, I'm, I'm always in a Kendrick mood somehow, like I'm always in the mood to talk shit to Drake. But no, but I agree. I understand what you're saying. Kendrick is a more apt example for me personally, because I can connect to that. But Frank Ocean, yeah, I do have bad I do have very hot, piping hot takes.

Frederick Joseph 29:27

Okay, I'm going to You are grown and have, like, really strongly rooted opinions in what I'm sure is, like, a lot of unpacking personally, and yet, still, I'm going to send you like, five songs, like, what about these?

Traci Thomas 29:39

Okay, you could, I mean, I like, I like channel orange is good, like, I listen to it a lot of times in my life, but I'm not reaching for it now, in the same way that I might reach back for something from years ago. I'm certainly not reaching back for it, like I reach back for Damn.

Frederick Joseph 29:55

Gotcha Okay, so damn is a phenomenal example of what I'm talking about, right? So, like, or. Why I actually mentioned Kendricks as much as Kendrick is like, still great, and I have loved every single thing about the last year, damn, especially songs like fear, right where, okay, you know, for those who are not familiar, it's one of the songs of Damn, which he won a Pulitzer for. He is musing on all the ways as a young black person that he might end up harmed or killed, right?

Speaker 1 30:30

I probably die from thinking that me and your hood was cool, or maybe die from pressing the line neck into extra or maybe die because these smokers are more than desperate. I probably die from one of these pets and blue badges, body slamming, black and white paint, my bones snapping, or maybe die from panic, or die from being too wax, or die for weight.

Frederick Joseph 30:50

And he's running off this list, just to sort of show the weight of just sitting in blackness, right, in America, right? And it sort of bookends the beginning of the album, where he has a song with you, too, and he's like, it's this, nobody's praying for me. And it's sort of like this sort of loud, deeply spiritual, not musing, but more of a an anthem. This is what America is doing to me. And so at the ended album, to bookend it with this sort of, like whisper of, this is what America is doing to me. It's just brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. And it's and it's honest. It's just Yes, I Yes. I love Kendrick, as you can tell.

Traci Thomas 31:37

I do too. I also this was, like, none of this was planned. I had no idea we were gonna go this show, but I'm so happy we're here. It's always a real joy for me to do an interview where I have a lot of ideas about what we're gonna talk about, and then we end up at, you know, talking about, Damn it's like a real, true pleasure for me. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. Normally, I like ask people about like, how they pick the characters names, like the title and the cover, but I want to make sure that I spend a little bit of time with you talking about your target boycott decision and how that's impacted you and the book. So for people who have been living under a rock this year, Target, after Trump was elected, decided to roll back their dei programs. Then many people, myself included many black people, but many people, broadly, were like, We're gonna boycott target, because fuck that noise. Some people did it for that one day. Some people did it for the whole period of Lent. Some of us are still doing it, but you, Frederick Joseph, you said, I'm not going to sell my books in Target anymore, which is clearly like, will have a financial impact, because that is a major book retailer for many people. So I want to know why you wanted to make that decision, and also what sort of the Fallout or impact has been so far. And we are recording this episode before the book has actually come out into the world, so everything we're talking about is more on the pre sale line. But as you're listening, the book is out in the world, so you should go buy it.

Frederick Joseph 33:09

Okay, go ahead. Yeah. So I made the decision because I just feel as though you it's sort of cliche at this point, right? But like, stand for something or fall for everything, right? The classic, classic quote. Target accounts for about 40% of my book sales, and so many people around me, yeah.

Traci Thomas 33:27

Yeah, yeah. I haven't like a lot. Is that? Is that a lot for people, or is that across the board do you think?

Frederick Joseph 33:33

I don't know about everyone else I know from for for me, it's a shit ton, and I don't, I don't know if everyone else's numbers are sort of like sitting the same way, but I've had exclusive releases at Target. I've written for Marvel and things like that, and then my first book, someone there read it, and they did an entire sort of roll out, where the book was in every target and on screens. And so I've had a good relationship with them since then, until now. And so it has had. We are in pre sale currently as we're recording this, but it's had a massive impact on my sales, I would say, to date, right? Just we're a week out from release as we're recording this. I'm not allowed to give exact numbers, but I'd say this about 50% less pre orders than we are accustomed to seeing historically with my books. And so it's major. And so the books not in arguably the largest retailer, you know, for foot traffic in the country, and it's known, it's no longer in their websites and things like that. It does. The book does not exist as it relates to target, which I did purposely, because I also feel like young people look up to me, right? Like young people look at me and, you know, told me, Hey, you know, it means a lot that you stand for these things. And if we're going to, sort of, you know, talk about the pits and ales of capitalism, i. Um, I want to be more than capitalism. I do need to pay my bills, but, but also this, this, this stands for more than that. I think it's the spirit of the book itself, too.

Traci Thomas 35:10

Right right. Um, do you feel like, like, Would you do it again, knowing what you know now?

Frederick Joseph 35:17

Yeah, I would do it again. I don't believe. I mean, I hope I'm wrong. The book's not going to be, you know, another New York Times bestseller. For me, it's not going to, you know, do those things out the gate, and that's okay, right? That's, that's okay, because it is going to allow me to have conversations like this, where someone will hear it, and it's not just about picking up the book. Someone will say, like, it's okay to make the sort of right decision, not just for yourself, but for your community, right, like, like, at the end of the day, as a black person, you know, the most important thing that we have to make change is actually our, like, economic power. And I want to remind people of that constantly, and so, you know, I think that I've, in part, done that. And my hope was that some people say like, Hey, maybe I'll go to bookshop, or hey, maybe I'll go to, you know, Barnes and Noble. And that ultimately did not happen. The people who usually go to, you know, the the target and Amazons of the world, they decided not to pick the book up quite yet. So, and that's okay, your books on on Amazon, either it is on Amazon. But I think because of the fact that I was, I think people should sort of equate the two, right? Yeah.

Traci Thomas 36:28

So got it interesting? And speaking of bookshop or, like independent bookstores, do you have a favorite one? Oh, I

Frederick Joseph 36:35

have a few. I want to list them off, just to show some love. So first and foremost, Uncle Bobby's in Philadelphia, love Uncle Bobby's Baldwin and CO in New Orleans. Love Baldwin and Co. Mahogany books in DC. Love them Lip Bar, even though, shout out to the Lip Bar, but I my books are very rarely in there, but shout out to the Lip Bar.

Traci Thomas 36:58

Well, hopefully they're listening and they will do some new ordering. Make sure they have this thing of ours. It's coming out. We need you.

Frederick Joseph 37:04

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that bookstore. Yeah. Shout out to books are magic. I've named a bunch of black bookstores, but books are magic in Brooklyn is absolutely one of my favorite places to just be always so, yeah, those are, those are some of my favorites. Oh, reparations club in LA I'm, how dare I? How dare you.

Traci Thomas 37:22

I was not gonna say anything, but I was taking I was like, That's feels sort of rude. Um, Jazzy is the homie? Okay? You've done ya. You've done fiction, non fiction, jump, poetry. Are you? Are you gonna dapple continue expanding short stories, adult novel like, Are you or are you sitting pretty where you are?

Frederick Joseph 37:42

I so I have a YA novel coming out in fall 26 with Penguin Random House. That's I'm particularly interested in your take on that. It's my first time getting to write. I'm writing for the perspective of two teenage girls, and so one of them black, one of them Vietnamese, and they're both bipolar, so that's coming out. And then I just wrote a ya love story. And I think those are my three YA books for now. And then I'm gonna, sort of play in the adult try to get my literary fiction bag on. I I'm a little jealous, you know? I'm very close with Robert Jones, Jr, Mateo Skara, poor Nana, you know, yes, some of these people who are put out phenomenal, phenomenal novels. And I'm like, oh, I want to, well, I want to try.

Traci Thomas 38:41

Let me try. Okay, well, let me ask you this. Then, when you're thinking about writing for young people versus thinking about writing for adults, what is the difference to you? What is the shift that you have to make?

Frederick Joseph 38:56

You know, it's interesting. I actually think that writing, ya because I am already sort of working on an adult novel. And I think writing ya is a lot more difficult because it assumes. You have to assume a lot of things, but then you also have to, like, not assume anything. It's this interesting thing where it's like, I want a 13 year old to be able to read this novel. And so one would assume, like, oh, well, then you can't use this phrasing. But I'm like, actually, I think that the issue is not going to be the 13 year old. It's going to just be the authenticity to which you you sort of like engage that, that 13 year old. So, so I think that's the big difference, is how authentic you can be. I think when you're writing for adults, you just sort of do whatever you want to a certain extent, right? Because there's so there's so many different ways to be a human being, as an adult and, yes, as a young person. But like, young people are a lot more tapped into, like popular culture and things like that, oftentimes. And so you know this, for example, the adult novel I've been working on, I'm sort of like, well, I. Like it. So, you know, it is what it is. I don't. I don't, the audience will find it, versus me trying to sort of cater to an age range. So, yeah, I think that's the big difference. It's a lot more strategy that goes into writing a YA novel. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 40:15

interesting. Jason said the same thing. He was like, none of my adult writing novel. Friends could write a YA novel. I don't know. I couldn't write any novel, so I don't have an opinion on that, but I it does strike me that writing for younger people is particularly challenging, especially because, like me, of ya audiences will tell you what they think, they're not polite and like, they don't have good home training like, you know, so I feel like that's all smart, because then you have to, like, go in the schools, and then the kids are like, Mr. Joe. Joseph, like, why did you write this That sucked? Or, like, this ending was bad, and you're like, Okay, thank you. 100% I

Frederick Joseph 40:49

think that's the thing, right, that I'm I'm not nervous if I'm excited for because thus far, everything's been either poetry or non fiction. I do have some fiction, but it's all Marvel. So, like, if you write anything, Marvel, you're gonna always have a fan base, whatever. But like, Yeah, but for this, you know, I so the second novel, what we did was we actually went out and got blurbs from young people before selling it. And the first draft that they read, they ripped two

Traci Thomas 41:17

shreds. They were like, I will not put my name. They were like, they were like,

Frederick Joseph 41:22

I cannot, I refuse. This is not how we speak this. I was like, copy, right? And I went back and rewrote the entire novel. And they're like, this is fine. Now it's good. You can, you can start,

Traci Thomas 41:33

like, Okay, continue exactly. You may. I like, Michelle, you may, exactly. That's actually amazing. Is there anything that's not in this thing of ours that you wish was,

Frederick Joseph 41:47

ooh, I wish I could have been more specific about sort of like Donald Trump, to be honest with you, about sort of like the moments around Donald Trump being president, and around Maga, largely because of the climate of being sued is why you can't be there are legalities to it which you can and cannot say. And so I wish I could have just came out and done certain things. I do think that I captured some allusions and allegories fairly well. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 42:26

Did you ever think about just fictionalizing the president?

Frederick Joseph 42:30

I did, but, but I ended up going with something else that was a little bit more a few characters that are a bit more grounded and sort of felt like you could touch them right, like Donald Trump, I think in ways, at times, bails white people out because he's such this, like grand figure. He's a symbol of concept. And I wanted to write sort of, I won't call some of them villains, but I wanted to write layered, problematic characters who happen to be, yeah, okay, so I wanted to write some of them at times, in a way, we're like, Oh no, this is your aunt, this is your uncle. This is, this is your son. This is, like, there's, I won't give anything away, but like, the character who could be someone's son, I think is so important. Like, your son could do this. This is really happening, yeah,

Traci Thomas 43:18

right. Or your classmate, yes, kid that sort of is like saying things where you're just like, really, fuck with you, like that, that person like it sort of legitimizes how kids might be feeling about certain classmates, or like, yeah.

Frederick Joseph 43:33

And it shows how kids are radicalized a bit within the Digital spheres. And it's not the kids don't just look one way. I think that we sort of sell or young people don't look this one way, in terms of we sell these, like American villains, as being sort of these uneducated, you know, poverty stricken white people. And I'm like, I don't know about that. I think that that's interesting.

Traci Thomas 44:00

I agree with you. I think that, like the media and like sort of the broad perception of like, who a racist is, and what that looks like is like backwoods, like Duck Dynasty or whatever, but I have always felt it is much more chilling to see like a proud boy, right, like that That, to me, is like, the scariest kind of Caucasian and I wonder, and it makes me feel like the sort of, you know, Southern scapegoating, not to say that there isn't racism in the south, but that like that is the only version of a person who's racist and Bad isn't like, by design, isn't very much like a scapegoat. Oh, it absolutely

Frederick Joseph 44:43

is by design, right? And that's that was on my mind so much when writing a few characters in one specific scene in this book, because this is this like elite, wealthy High School, and you end up having something happen, and you're like, wait. To the point where, like, when certain people read it at my publishing house, they're like, this can't happen. And my editor and I pushed like, No, this absolutely not only could, but it is right, like, and so I didn't want there to be that sort of escapism where it's like, you gotta talk like this to be a racist. And, you know, like you said, Duck Dynasty. You know, backwoods Alabama, backwoods Mississippi. No, this is New York. This is New York. This is wealthy New York. And what does it mean that, you know, again, thinking about spoilers, but like the politicians, the educators, the wealthy kids like it's, it's, it's systemic,

Traci Thomas 45:36

because this book is so current, right? And you're writing at a time that many of the things that are happening in the book are happening in our world, very actively. We're living through it. How did you know you were done with the book or like that you had said enough to feel complete that in six months it wouldn't feel like you'd left something out, or that it was dated or something. Oh,

Frederick Joseph 45:59

I don't think that I'll ever feel like I was done with the book. I think there are things happening right now, and I'm like, Oh, I touched on this, or I played with this idea. But, you know, I had an interview with Publishers Weekly recently, and I said, you know, I try to go into every project like this could be my last project, right? I am someone. I live with multiple sclerosis. I live with heart disease, and so I, you know, on any given day, sadly, like things might not look the same for me as they did the day before. And so I wanted to put enough in this book that it could sort of hopefully join the canon, not just of, not just like the literary canon, but the protest canon, right? Sure, the empowering canon, the things that people can latch on to and say, like, okay, we can get this done. And I felt like, when I was done, I did that, right? I created something that people can walk away from and take parts of it and do something with it.

Traci Thomas 46:59

Okay, let me ask you this, this question kind of early, because normally I ask people like, for people who like this book, what's it in conversation with? But I'm actually more curious to know what you think will be in that literary protest canon.

Frederick Joseph 47:11

Ooh, I think sort of obvious, just because of the the astronomical heights that it reach? Probably The Hate U Give punching air by if he's a boy. I really, really want, want it to sit with Walter Dean Myers work. I don't think we talk enough about Walter Dean Myers, you know, monster and hoops and sort of like this work that he was doing, especially for black boys in the literary space that we didn't have, you'd have anyone but him. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, because I want I mentioned a lot in this book. I want everybody to go read the books that I mentioned. I mentioned Octavia Butler, I mentioned Robert Jones Jr. I mentioned James Baldwin. Sonia Sanchez, Toni Morrison. Toni Morrison, Zora Neale Hurston, yeah, yeah, you know. So I want people to go back to Zora. I like. I want people to do that work. And I want this book to maybe not sit with that. I would never say I'm gonna ever sit next to Toni Morrison in any regard. But I want it to sort of be a pathway, you know, for new generations to find that sort of canon, yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:26

that makes sense. How do you like to write, how many hours a day, how often music or no snacks and beverages in the home, out of the home, candles, incense, rituals? Tell me,

Frederick Joseph 48:37

yeah. I write to Ken Burns documentaries, really, 24/7 24/7

Traci Thomas 48:43

which ones you just watch? All of them, all of them,

Frederick Joseph 48:46

all of them, basically on loop. Do you have a favorite? Yes, my favorite is the Dust Bowl. Okay, I am I, if I have to write a scene like there are scenes in the book that I there's music that they're playing in the book. I don't know if you recall any of these, but I was, I do. There's so much music, the Bali playlist, yeah, yes, yes. The Bali playlist, I was listening to those Frank

Traci Thomas 49:09

Ocean in the book. So, you know, it's also Kendrick.

Frederick Joseph 49:14

You know what's funny? I actually think that I have a Kendrick versus Drake argument in the book, if I remember correctly, I I might be,

Traci Thomas 49:22

I don't remember that, but it's possible. I it's hard

Frederick Joseph 49:27

to remember. Yeah, yeah. If I do, somebody let me know I might have been a Prophet. Who knows, but, but yeah. So I

Traci Thomas 49:34

was the original Drake hater. I went on again Sam Sanders Show October, the year before, and was like, Drake's a loser, and someone should destroy him. And I was like, I'm gonna call him a loser every day. And then Kendrick came out, and everyone's like, Oh, Kendrick's so great. I'm like, well, can anybody listen to this podcast episode? I believe I had this. You're like,

Frederick Joseph 49:54

you're like, I the California wins. Took it from your words, I

Traci Thomas 49:58

sure enough to. Just down the street. He's just down the street. He was like, Oh, I love the SAM Kendrick. Was like, I love the SAM Sanders Show. Let me listen to my favorite podcast. And was like, You know what? She's got a point. He is a

Frederick Joseph 50:11

loser. Traci is right. He's not like us. And

Traci Thomas 50:15

you know what, Kendrick, if you were listening, you have an open invitation to this very podcast at any point in time for any reason. Oh,

Frederick Joseph 50:22

my God, that would be, that would so you are, I will say, and I'm not just saying this in the morning now I'm already on here. You can never post the episode if you want, but you are one of the best interviewers, I swear, like, truly. And I'm not just saying that you like, I really mean that I have been lucky enough to be interviewed by various people for various things, and you're just really, really good, like, I mean, yeah, I think you and Kendrick be a great conversation. I

Traci Thomas 50:51

don't, is He? Is he good at interviews? He's not. I think he's not. He doesn't want to be interviewed as the thing he, I feel like he, it's very Marshawn Lynch, I'm just here so I don't get bind energy, very Percival. Everett energy, just like, I don't want to answer your questions, I made the art leave me alone.

Frederick Joseph 51:08

But I feel like your style might, actually, you might be the one person to sort of like crack the code, right? Like I'm challenged, because I'll be taking it on. I'll be really honest, I don't love I don't love interviews. I don't like interviews. I don't like

Traci Thomas 51:26

any. Like listening to them, or you don't like giving them, or both. I love

Frederick Joseph 51:30

listening to them. I don't like giving them. It's a necessary thing, obviously, to try to sell books, but because most people don't understand one, they don't understand the work. And then two people are constantly sort of projecting their ignorance on the work, in my personal opinion, and they're not not well researched, right? Like the thing, I've been reading reviews of this thing of ours, and it's gotten wonderful reviews. It's it was starred three times. I'm gonna be really honest. I'm gonna say something that might sound egotistical, but egotistical, but all the reviews that are really good, had they been black, that didn't get stars, had they been black people, I think they would have been starred. Like, there's just not a lot of there's not a lot of black people in publishing in general, especially on the ends of reviews and publicity and things like that. I've been around long enough to know that, and I just like, I don't want to talk to people about things that they don't really understand. Like, I, you know, I'm not. It's a novel. It's not, it's not sort of like a It's not white fragility, you know, it's sure I don't feel like dealing with that. So, yeah,

Traci Thomas 52:35

no, that makes sense, okay, but I did cut Thank you. First of all, thank you very nice for you to say, Kendrick, you can come on. I'll give you a good interview if you want. When if you want, whenever you want. We can talk about whatever you want. But I cut you off. You were saying you listen to some of the music that's in the books when you're writing the scenes that have the songs playing. What else is part of your writing ritual?

Frederick Joseph 52:56

Yeah? So some of the music depended upon scenes, like, if there's a romantic scene, or if there's like, an intense scene, I need to sort of be in that. But if I'm editing, or if I'm just sort of like flowing, which is what I like, I I can write for 15 hours at a time, it's like, actually problematic wow, I won't eat, I won't get up, I won't do anything, I'll just sit in one spot. Problem like, again, problematically. And if I have it going, I'll just go right, which is why I think I joke about it all the time with friends. So this book is my seventh book. I think, yeah, I think, yeah, seven, I think so. And I've already written eight, nine and 10, right? And like, they need to be edited. But because I'm just like, I love what I do, I like, it's not it's, do

Traci Thomas 53:44

you ever not have it like? Do you ever sit down and you're literally like, I can't like and what does that feel like? Never.

Frederick Joseph 53:49

That's never happened to me. I i think it's rooted in I grew up like, with being unheard, unseen, just like when you're when you're black and in poverty in America, I can't stress enough how lonely that can feel, right? And I had all these things that I was interested in and wanted to say and to be now, you know, in my 30s, and get to actually do it like I suppose I said earlier, I want the book to be successful, but already, the fact that you were not you and I are talking about a book that takes place in Yonkers. I grew up in the projects in Yonkers, and I got to write about a kid. I've made it right? I've done everything that I've ever wanted to do. This is so fun. It's so fun. I just, yeah, I don't ever not have it, because I'm always just having so much fun with it. That's

Traci Thomas 54:40

so interesting. I love what I do, but sometimes I don't have it. Sometimes I just and I'm the consistency queen. If I'm, I'm, I don't believe, per se that I'm, like, particularly a great interviewer or great at anything except for I am extremely consistent. I have never missed an episode of this podcast for so. Seven years, every Wednesday there has been an episode, and I had twins in the middle of this, and there was a pandemic. Like, like, I just that to me is my great superpower is, like, I will show up every day, but sometimes I don't have it. So it's interesting to hear that you feel like you always, you always have it. I mean, that I'm a little bit jealous.

Frederick Joseph 55:19

Well, I mean, have it is also relative, right? Like, I mean, you do something that, like, I couldn't do what you do. I just couldn't right, like, I couldn't do what you do. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about that. Because I think everyone, I think everyone's a writer, but, like, not me.

Traci Thomas 55:36

I hate it. It's the devil's work.

Frederick Joseph 55:41

Sorry, I don't know. No, I just feel like, again, it's, there's levels to it, right? Like, not every day am I gonna produce. Like, some days it's just a poem, right? Like, I might, like, leave this conversation with you. It's like, the sun is, I can see Brooklyn from my window. I'm talking to you. I'm in really good spirits. I'm just like, I might have a poem in me today. I might like, I don't have I don't have novel work in me today, but I definitely have writing in me today, because it's so cathartic. Yeah?

Traci Thomas 56:08

So you write every day, and sometimes it's these 15 hour mega stretches, but sometimes it might just be a few hours or just a little bit of time, yeah, okay, yeah, this makes more sense too. Yeah, yeah. Um, what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try. I

Frederick Joseph 56:22

don't know why, but I mess up business very often, me too. I don't know why I know how to spell business, but for some reason, I always I like, what bu s, wait, what? You know that is a good question. Can I actually tell you something that's hilarious? Yes, have you ever heard the phrase apro, pro of nothing, yes. Do you know that I never heard this phrase yesterday, really? I, I, I don't. I pride myself with, like, essentially, like, this sort of, like, type a clawing yourself out of poverty, black type of person. I'm like, I need to know everything. I need to I need to constantly have nothing. And someone said, Oh, apropos of nothing. And he looked at me. I was like, what? And it was like, apropos of nothing. I'm like, Wait, excuse me, What language is that? That's so funny, yeah, and so that so obviously it's not the sort of spelling question, but it's the same kind of Yeah. I was okay.

Traci Thomas 57:21

So let me ask you this in response to that. How many times have you used apropos of nothing in the last 24 hours?

Frederick Joseph 57:28

Oh, my God, 9 million and so, okay,

Traci Thomas 57:31

that's me. If I learn a new thing, I'm like, Okay, let me work this in, baby. Apropos of nothing, I went to the store

Frederick Joseph 57:38

right before, right before this podcast, I posted like a picture, like promoting the book, and I almost like was, like, you need to use apropos of

Traci Thomas 57:49

nothing, apropos of nothing. Here's my book.

Frederick Joseph 57:52

I should call this episode apropos of nothing. I'm going to apropos

Traci Thomas 57:57

of nothing. There's this book, but with Frederick I just said, Frederick Douglas,

Frederick Joseph 58:01

oh, that's fine. You are so it took you, it took you a while, but you, everyone does that.

Traci Thomas 58:07

Everyone does it. Sorry, no, you're good. You know, I guess there's worse people to be compared to. Yeah, it's like, there's not. I mean, my best hope is that someone would accidentally say Traci Chapman. That's like, the best I can hope for that would be, there's really not a lot of other Traci is doing good work out there. I should

Frederick Joseph 58:23

actually, so I should actually just rename myself Frederick Douglass, because people say it so often, but my name's actually kind of sucks. Did you know that my name is the middle name of Bruce Springsteen?

Traci Thomas 58:33

So random, right? Bruce Springsteen, is it? Is it Bruce Frederick Joseph Springsteen, yes, it is the full thing. He's got two middle names,

Frederick Joseph 58:41

Yes. And did you know that Fred Flintstones name is actually Frederick Joseph Flintstone,

Traci Thomas 58:46

I didn't know that. And so whenever like so I shouldn't be calling you Frederick Douglas. I should be calling you Frederick Flintstone.

Frederick Joseph 58:53

yeah, I guess that makes sense. Incredible.

Traci Thomas 58:55

Wait, what's your middle name? Jose?

Frederick Joseph 58:58

So people assume that it's actually T because of my handle Fred, T Joseph, but, yeah, my middle name is Jose.

Traci Thomas 59:07

But isn't Jose and Joseph? Yep.

Frederick Joseph 59:09

Yes. It is great. Great. Yeah, yes.

Traci Thomas 59:12

Is there a story here or in

Frederick Joseph 59:15

terms of how that happened? I think my father's father just being stupid. I don't know. I'm like, I'm the third, and I didn't grow up with my father, so I always sort of adopted my mother's last name Thomas as my middle name. But my middle name is actually Jose, yep.

Traci Thomas 59:30

So we share Thomas, sort of, well, I have Thomas firmly. You sort of have a Thomas connection, yeah. So we love this. Maybe we're cousins. Do you know Joseph Earl Thomas? We say that we're cousins too. No, who's Joseph? Real Thomas. He wrote the book sink, and then he also wrote the book last year. God bless you. Otis spunk Meyer.

Frederick Joseph 59:48

Oh, yes. Otis funk Meyer, yes, yes. I haven't read it yet, but it just--

Traci Thomas 59:52

I think people like it, everyone. I think it has now that we've talked, I feel like, I feel like you'd appreciate it. I think I'd be interested in it. It does like. Some interesting things. Formally, it's very much like coming of age black guy who sort of is like, defies a lot of stereotypes, but is also weird. It's definitely not, ya, there's so much sex in it, a lot of sex, which I told Joseph. I was like, I am too prude for this. I was like, this is a lot for me, but it's really good. I mean, it's, I'm not saying anything new. It won awards. It's been everywhere. But he's our cousin as well. Well, on your mom's side, yeah.

Frederick Joseph 1:00:28

Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to the family reunion. We're gonna turn up.

Traci Thomas 1:00:33

We're like so over time. But I just have to ask you one last question, if you could have one person dead or alive. Read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Frederick Joseph 1:00:42

My grandmother. My grandmother is largely My grandmother taught me how to write. My grandmother's the reason that I write, and my grandmother is very much. I'm not gonna give anything away, but grandma Alice is just my grandmother. I was wondering, yeah, she's just my grandmother. And I wanted to make sure that you know they say, if a if a writer loves you, you never truly die. And so, yeah, I wanted to make sure she never truly died.

Traci Thomas 1:01:09

I love that so much. And Grandma Alice is like a perfect character. She's very she's she is by far the most purely good person in the book, right? Like she has, she has no flaws, except for being amazing. Um, no, but she's, she's lovely. That's a lovely tribute to your grandmother. For everyone at home, you can get this thing of ours now wherever you get your books, unless you get your books at target at which case you need to go to an independent bookstore, go to bookshop.org I obviously will link to it in the show notes, or and, or both. Probably do both, make sure it's in your local library. Make sure it's there so that someone can stumble upon it, if they're in this, in this in the library, because I feel like we don't talk enough about stumbling upon books in the library for young people, that that is such a powerful place to find books. Even my own kids, our new favorite book we just randomly ripped off the shelf without opening and were obsessed with it. I ordered five copies to send to everybody I know. So it's called Crab Cake, and it's a picture book about it's like environmental justice and also community organizing. It's literally the best children's book I've ever read. It's by her name's Andrea Suri, or something like that. And it's about a crab who bakes cakes, and then the the humans dump shit in the ocean, and everyone is paralyzed by the gravity of this thing, but crab keeps baking cake, and so then all the other animals come out, and they end up deciding what they're going to do about it. And through it all, crab just bakes cake because, like, you just got to do what you do, and you got to just keep showing up. And it's really a beautiful book. I love it so much.

Frederick Joseph 1:02:55

You describing the book just now, for some reason made me really emotional.

Traci Thomas 1:02:58

I don't know why the book makes me extremely emotional, and I obviously have spoiled this children's book. But what I will say is the way that the images like and the colors, it's just it's really beautiful. Again, I've ordered five copies, two, one for each of my kids, teachers, and then some for some friends, for birthdays, and I will continue to order this book for everyone who has small children, because it's really powerful, and also I love it, but my kids love it every day. We read it every day for like three weeks now, we read it every other day, and I have to return it to the library, but I'm still--

Frederick Joseph 1:03:34

I'm gonna order it as soon as we get off of here.

Traci Thomas 1:03:36

So it's so good. Oh, and if anybody's listening, I actually told Jazzy at rep Club. How much I love this book, because we do a deal for Book Club books that people who order through rep club and use the code STACKS10, to get 10% off. I don't get anything from it, but you guys do, and it's a great way to support my favorite bookstore. And Jazzy is like, we'll just throw the code on Crab Cake. So if you're listening and you want to get Crab Cake, use code STACKS10, and you'll get 10% off if you order from Rep Club. Just this is like nothing, but you could order This Thing of Ours and Crab Cake and get get both of these books, and then also, my original point was to make sure it's in your local libraries. Frederick, thank you for being here.

Frederick Joseph 1:04:14

Thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 1:04:16

This was so fun, everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

Traci Thomas 1:04:24

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Frederick for joining the show. I'd also like to say thank you to Sarah DeSalvo for making this interview possible. Remember our book club pick for May is devil in a blue dress by Walter Mosley, which we will discuss on Wednesday, May 28 with Cara Brown. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, go to patreon.com/the tacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, please make sure you are subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a and a review for more from The Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website, thestackspodcast.com this episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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