Ep. 376 People Be Gay with Mia McKenzie

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

Mia McKenzie is on the show this week discussing her newest book, These Heathens, a coming of age story set in 1960s Georgia. She talks about how she approached fictionalizing real figures from the civil rights movement, the importance of queer representation in her work, and how her grandmother inspired the protagonist in the novel.

The Stacks Book Club pick for June is The Art Thief: A True Story of Love, Crime, and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. We will discuss on Wednesday, June 25th with Ceara O’Sullivan returning as our guest.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Mia McKenzie 0:00

When I started writing the book, it was around the time when the leak came out that the Supreme Court was going to overturn Roe v Wade. So I knew then that it was going to be relevant. You know, very soon, in many, many ways. You know, historical fiction should feel more historical than this, right? I wouldn't say not to write something that was, that was, uh, that was still current, you know, as I'm living in 2025 and watching all the things and hearing all the things and kind of dealing with all the things that everyone else is dealing with in this moment. Yeah, it's frustrating, you know, it's frustrating to feel like things you know haven't changed as much as we fooled ourselves into believing that they had.

Traci Thomas 0:49

Welcome to the Stacks a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by award winning author Mia McKenzie. Mia is also the creator of Black Girl Dangerous, a media project that centers queer and trans people of color. Her newest book, These Heathens take us on a weekend journey to Atlanta with a 17 year old girl named Doris who is trying to get an abortion in the 1960s. Today, Mia and I talk about writing historical fiction, which includes real life figures her representation of the queer community and why it's so important and how her grandmother inspired her main character, Doris. A quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, you can head to patreon.com/thestacks to join our bookish community. The Stacks Pack and be sure to subscribe to my newsletter tracithomas.substack.com for more hot takes on books and pop culture. Now it's time for my conversation with Mia McKenzie.

All right, everybody. I am so excited. I am joined today by Mia Mackenzie. She is the author of the brand new book, these heathens. She's also the author of other books, but today we're going to talk about this brand new book, these heathens. So Mia, welcome to the stacks. Thank you so much, Traci, for having me. I'm really excited to have you. I We i want to say, what year did sky falling come out? 2021 Yeah, 2021 so in 2021 you were in our 10 best books of the year episode. You were featured as one of our 10 Best Books. Yeah, it's cool. So, so it's nice to have you here for this new book, which hopefully will make the list again. Yeah, fingers crossed, yeah. Will you tell folks we always start here in about 30 seconds or so. Will you just tell us about These heathens?

Mia McKenzie 2:40

Yeah. So These Heathens is what you get when comedy and historical fiction mess around in the backseat of a 1960 suit breaker convertible. That's basically how I'm looking at it. So it tells the story of Doris Steele, a character I based on my own grandmother who also shares her name. Doris is a very religious and also quite horny small town teenager who has her favorite teacher to help her get an abortion. So they go to Atlanta, where Doris finds herself suddenly immersed in, you know, the Civil Rights Movement, which is happening, a lot of stuff happening right then, with the student with student activism. And she also finds herself kind of in the midst of the hidden lives of queer black people. And she's from, you know, she's very small town religious, and this is very, very scandalous to her. So she, you know, she comes face to face with remarkable figures like Bayard Rustin and corona Scott King and Diane Nash and Martin Luther King, Jr. They all show up and others. And she comes face to face like with herself. You know, she with dreams for her life that she didn't even know she had. She sort of didn't even know how to dream about life. So it's a story about choice. It's a story about what becomes possible when women get to make decisions about our lives. And it's a story about what happens when Martin Luther King flirts with you over a plate of ribs. 60 years later, you have to still explain to everybody that he's not the one who knocked you up.

Traci Thomas 4:04

Yes. Oh my god, I love that. The book has such a fantastic opening page. It's basically starts there. The book starts with like he's not the father, right? And I just thought it was so great. And I'm curious how you as a writer, as a storyteller, how you think about the beginnings of your books. How important is it for you to get the beginning right? Or are you a person that says the beginning just has to be there? It's my job to sort of build the rest of the book and and if you are a beginning has to be right person. How do you know when the beginning how do you know when you get it right?

Mia McKenzie 4:38

Such good questions, you know? I mean, I think, you know, I tend to look at least now at novel writing. For me, my process is very much making sure I know what's going to happen in the middle, and then I'm getting the middle right and putting kind of a lot of thought and energy into that. You know, even in the beginning, when I'm figuring out what the book is, I know now, if I don't have a. I don't have a book. I just have an idea. And so, but that being said, you know, begin to me, beginnings are easy. You know, beginnings are like, so, like inspired. And so, you know, you have this idea, you have this concept, you have these characters are coming to you. And for me, the beginning always just sort of comes together. It's kind of this really easy thing. And so I don't think I think too much about how a story begins. I think my stories begin in different ways, but that's always felt like it's just kind of flowing. I think, I think the way, if I'm thinking about a beginning, I'm always starting with character, though I always want to sort of be able to show the reader who is this character, who are you going to spend this all this time with? Or who are these, you know, these main characters, and particularly in sky falling and in this book, which both have, you know, sort of, kind of one main character, you know, and a strong voice, really wanting to to showcase the voice of the character too, that you're going to be with for for the duration of the book, and make sure, making sure you kind of, you know what this person sounds like and who they are, right from, you know the first sentence.

Traci Thomas 6:11

Yeah, if middle is the thing for you that you are the most concerned with, how do you know when you Get that right. What's your process like for fleshing the whole thing out? How much are you, I guess the question was like, how much is the middle a struggle for you, or is it something that you're more thinking about like in an outline phase?

Mia McKenzie 6:34

I'm thinking about it in an outline phase. So the way that I work now is that I want it. I want to outline the whole thing. I want to know everything that's going to happen. And then, of course, in the writing process, many other things end up happening. So it's not, it's not necessarily what you thought it was going to be in the outline, but at least when I'm going in, I want to know what I think this book is going to be. And so I'm thinking about the middle there in that first those, that first outline, even before it's an outline, really, when I'm just sort of putting it together. It together in my head. And I guess I know when I get it right, when it when it feels like nothing is there's no holes. I guess there's, there's no sort of empty space in the story where I feel like everything that that's happening is moving the story forward. There's no sort of lag. I feel like, you know, the scariest thing is, you don't want to write a book, and then the middle, it just starts to kind of drag there.

Traci Thomas 7:28

No, you don't want to do that, and you don't want to read that, right?

Mia McKenzie 7:31

Exactly. That's how you lose a reader, like nobody wants to read that. And so getting that right, so you know that there, there's a momentum that you're creating. You know, you're starting in the beginning, and you want to just keep you want it to just get better and better. And it's just, it's just like the all of the themes that you're working with, they're just getting more and more clear. You know, tensions are ratcheting up and more and more depending on, you know, kind of what you're writing, what your story is, stuff is happening in a big way. When you get to the middle, it's kind of like, this is where stuff should be happening in a big, big way to kind of start to drive you through the most important parts of the story. And so I know I'm doing that right when I, when I, I'm excited about that, it's really easy to be excited about the beginning. Like, like I said, it's just so inspired, and it's all new, and it's so fresh, and the characters, and it's all just everything is great, but to feel really inspired in the middle, when you're kind of getting into the really important stuff about the book, the things that you're trying to say, and to be excited about that part, I think that's how I know that I'm doing something that's working.

Traci Thomas 8:37

And then we haven't talked about the endings at all. How do you think about endings.

Mia McKenzie 8:41

Yeah, endings are tricky. Endings are just kind of like, because you, you know, not, not as hard as middles. But I would say, I sometimes I don't know how I want to end. I don't know, like, where I always want it to go. But again, I try to figure it out in the outline, so I'm sort of prepared for it.

Traci Thomas 9:04

Yeah, I have to say this book has such beautiful beginning, middle and end, like I do as a reader. I was reading it so quickly. I was so locked in, and we kind of get to that that third quarter, I was just like, oh my god, what is gonna happen, right? What is going on?

Mia McKenzie 9:24

That's what I want. That's what you want to really, really be working.

Traci Thomas 9:28

And the third quarter, I think, is, is probably, yeah, like, it's probably the most important to me as a reader. And I just feel like you, I sort of knew you were an outline writer in reading the book, I was like, Oh, Mia. McKenzie has a very clear idea of what she wants to happen in this book, and I appreciate that as a reader, because you feel taken care of. I was like, I don't know where this is going, but I know it's going somewhere that I'm going to be like, interested in. Because, you know, sometimes you read a book. Book. And you're like, where is this going? I might want to quit soon, right? You know? And it's like, those are two very different where is this going? And I just felt very, you know, I felt safe. I felt like Doris was safe, like I wasn't worried about anybody, and it was just like, such a lovely time. So I appreciate the care that you put into it.

Mia McKenzie 10:17

Thank you. I'm gonna, I'm glad that it comes through. For sure.

Traci Thomas 10:21

I want to talk about historical fiction. So in this book, as you mentioned, obviously, Doris is based on your grandmother, but she's a fictional character. There's a lot of fictional characters, but we are bumping up against some real life legends and icons. So what is your obligation? How did you feel responsible to taking care of their real lives and their legacies, as you sort of put them into this fictional world?

Mia McKenzie 10:45

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think so everyone who appears in the story who is a real person, you know, these are all people who I respect. And so when you're when you're writing historic when I'm writing historical fiction and there's real people showing up, that makes a lot of difference. If they're people that you that you respect and you want to, yeah, I don't want to talk shit about Martin Luther King. You know.

Traci Thomas 11:15

That would be what we call an unpopular opinion.

Mia McKenzie 11:19

But at the same time, I want to show I mean, there's no point in me, me putting in a version of Martin Luther King. That's just what you already expect. And, you know, this sort of, like, yeah, that's not going to be surprising in any way. That's not going to be something that you haven't already seen. That's just kind of the, you know, Encyclopedia version already, right? Because as a writer, what's, what's interesting about that? Like, why show up to this version of Martin Luther King, just to get that or any of the other characters in the book who are based who are real life people. So I want to find something in each character that is, I guess, surprising, that is new, but also based on my research about things that they might have said and done, right? So I'm so I'm not just making up, completely, making up something that's just, like, so outrageous that they would never have said, you know, or like, participated in in any way. I'm looking at things that conversations that they've had, you know, people who said, Oh, I talked to this person. I talked to them about this. I had a conversation with Coretta Scott King about the you know, in some memoir or some interview, and finding these little pieces of things that people have said that to help you start to create a larger picture. Because, yeah, because everything that's happening in the book with these historical figures, it's all, it's all, sort of none of it is in the public eye. It's all. It's all happening in conversations with people behind closed doors, you know, just kind of in, in personal space. So, yeah, so I feel like my obligation. I don't know that. I think I have an obligation necessarily. I don't know if that I think of it in terms of obligation, except to, you know, show, show respect, to people who I do respect. But then also, this is, this is the this is also comedic fiction, you know, this is also funny. It's also, you know, it's, it's not meant to be a history lesson, you know, it has a lot of historical elements, for sure, but it's also funny. It's goofy. You know, Martin Luther King is, you know, eating ribs and, like, licking the sauce off his fingertip, like he's, he's going to be doing that in this book, you know, it's not going to be some very, only, sort of, very reverent portrayal of him or anyone else. I'm looking for the interesting stuff. I'm looking for the real people behind the icons.

Traci Thomas 13:31

Totally. It sort of reminded me of, like, black girl Forrest Gump, right? Yeah, where it's like, it's like, sort of goofy and like he's on his own journey, but he's bumping into all of these important people, or like he's part of these important moments, because she's bumping into all these people, and she's sort of seeing them in a way that we don't get to see them normally. And it's sort of it was, it's that's like one of my favorite sort of genres of fiction is like for I call them like Forrest Gump books, where it's like this main character is in a world that we're familiar with. I don't know if you've read Rashid Newsome book, my government means to kill me. I haven't, but it, oh, it's so good. And it's sort of like this black queer Forrest Gump in Harlem or in New York City. And I think Bayard Rustin is also in that book as well. Actually, yeah, he sort of ate all these books. But your book reminds me of Rashid's book, and they're both so much fun, and they have the comedy, and they have these like historical figures in it. Though he has some bad, bad people in his book, like bad historical figures. Anyways, do you it sounds like you do quite a bit of research to find these nuggets. What does that look like for you? Your research process?

Mia McKenzie 14:48

Oh, boy. Lots of scouring the internet for little tidbits of things, a lot of interview looking for you know, people from the time, you know from the civil rights movement. From, particularly the student movement that was happening in 1960s talking about things. There's some, I found a lot of cool oral histories from from different archives and museums, and also different books on, you know, there's, like, so many, just small details in, not you know, nonfiction books about the Civil Rights Movement read, sort of, reading really, really closely and finding little, little things. So when I'm in the book, there's when Doris goes and spends time with the folks who are doing self defense for for the activists, you know, carrying guns and making sure that they're safe as they're doing their nonviolent organizing. You know, I read a lot about those people and the work that they did, and the conversations that they had about it, and the way that they talked about it. That's kind of my favorite, some of that, some of my favorite stuff in the in the story. So, yeah, lots of reading books, reading, like I said, interviews and kind of scouring stuff. I mean, you know, it's a long, you know, writing historical fiction, it is a heavily research based thing. But also, I mean, I love it. I love the subject matter. I love all the questions that come up about that time and but it's true, you know, it's tricky, because as a person living in now, you know, with the perfect vision of, you know, 2020 vision that I have now looking back and be, you know. So I have my kind of view of it, as a person who kind of knows how it turned out, you know, but writing about, you know, in a time where nobody knows how it turns out. You know, is also a tricky thing.

Traci Thomas 16:44

How do you navigate that?

Mia McKenzie 16:46

I tried to honor the different perspectives that I knew were happening then. So it's not as if, for example, everyone at the time thought the particular movements of the student movement, the particular non violent resistant movements, not everybody was on board with that in the first place, right? So it's not so I don't have to, like, pretend that everyone was right. People in the book are like, I don't know about this, right and but, but just kind of, I think honoring that, I think there's a way in which, you know, the whitewashing of the civil rights movement and black liberation movements would have us believe that it was all, you know, it was all non violent organizing. It was all Martin Luther King, everybody, all the black folks were totally on board with that. And so some of it too is just kind of setting the record straight of like, Oh no, actually, there was, there was other stuff going on, and there were, there were other thoughts about it and opinions about it. And so that's also really interesting to me. But yeah, I think I just tried to both honor the time and and understand the different ways that people were thinking about the movement at that time. And then also, I guess, Bring, bring questions into it, you know, of like this. This is this. Are these the right choices, actually, and not answer, not say yes or no, you know, but to just make sure that that question is being asked in the book.

Traci Thomas 18:08

I feel like, as I was reading the book this week, you know, every time I read historical fiction, I feel this way. I'm like, Everything old is new and great. But in this particular moment, in 2025 I live in Los Angeles, so I'm currently watching as I think the rest of the country is what is going on with these ICE raids, the conversation around violence and non violence and property damage. And you know, I am alive in 2025 and the conversations around abortion and the conversations around queer and trans rights and representation and women's liberation and all of these things. As I'm reading your book, I'm like, wow, we're still doing this. We're still doing this. So I'm wondering for you, I mean, I guess, when did you start working on this book, and as a person alive now, how were you impacted by current events as you were writing about events taking place 65 years ago, 7-65 years ago.

Mia McKenzie 19:07

Yeah, I mean, I started when I started writing the book. It was around the time when the leak came out that the Supreme Court was going to overturn Roe v Wade, they hadn't overturned it, but, you know, it got leaked that they were going to and I that's, that's around the time just before, just before them, was when I started to kind of envision the book and think about what I wanted the book to be, wow. And, yeah, yeah. So I knew then that it was going to be, you know, and not just with abortion, but things were just getting real wonky, right? Things were getting in all kinds of ways, real wonky. So I knew this is going to be really relevant, you know, very soon, in many, many ways, yeah, and I also, I think I had the same experience of just being like this again. You know? Why? You know, like, I don't, I don't want this to be so relevant, you know, this, it sucks that this is so relevant. You know, we shouldn't have to be doing, you know, historical fiction should feel more historical than this, right? I wouldn't set out to write something that was, that was, uh, that was still current. So, yeah, I mean, I think my, I feel, I feel about it, you know, as I'm as I'm living in 2025 and watching all the things and hearing all the things and kind of dealing with all the things that everyone else is dealing with in this moment. Yeah, it's frustrating, you know, it's frustrating to feel like things you know, haven't changed as much as we fooled ourselves into believing that they had. And I think that's one thing that's really interesting about the novel is that, like, this question of, like, choice, right, these choices that we're making, these choices that they're making at the time in 1960 you know, in pursuit of freedom, you can only do what you can do. You know you can, kind of just, you can, kind of give it your best effort and and and how it kind of turns out, you you can't really know, you know, which is sad, you know, which is hard and sad, and and, and kind of the, you know, the human condition of, kind of having to fight all the time and thinking that maybe you're getting somewhere, And then, you know, it's 65 years later. And, yeah, it doesn't feel, it doesn't really feel that way. So, yeah, I think I'm, I'm, I love the book. I'm, I'm excited about the book. The book is so funny and so wonderful, and really doesn't in many ways. It's not, it's not a heavy, you know, it's not a heavy novel. It's a no, it's not, though it deals with these heavy themes. It's, it's, it's, is hopeful and it sucks that we're, you know, we're that we're kind of facing these moments. So I mean, there's a way in which folks will say, Well, we've always been facing them, and that's true, we never quite stopped facing them. But the ways in which these things are just so boldly out there again, just so in our faces all over again is, yeah, it's, you know, it's a lot.

Traci Thomas 22:05

Yeah, let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back.

Okay, we're back, and I want to talk about Doris, our main character, who you mentioned, is inspired by your grandmother. Can you say a little bit more about her about that?

Mia McKenzie 22:25

Yeah, so my grandmother, who was wonderful and awesome and is based on Doris in many ways, she shared shares. Doris is just way with words. My grandmother had just incredible way to turn a phrase and to describe something a lot of which is is in the book, and then comes out of Doris mouth. And I was once talking to my grandmother. So my grandmother had five children, and four of them were born in Philly, where I'm from, and one of them she had young when she was younger, but she was still in Georgia, my uncle. So I never knew growing up who my uncle's father was, and I always wondered. I don't know that I always wondered. But eventually, as I got older, I wondered about it, because nobody ever talked about it, nobody ever said anything about it. And so one day I was an adult, and I was visiting my grandmother, and I don't know, I just got up the courage. It felt I was a little bit nervous to get in her business like that, because nobody talked about it. And so I asked her, I said, you know, I asked who his father was, and she said, Oh, nobody. And kind of waved me away. And so I thought, well, that could have many different, you know, there could be a lot of reasons for that kind of reaction. That could be, you know, a trial, you know, something traumatic happened. And it also just could be, oh, you know, some, some, some no good, some not worth talking about, individual but and then she kind of, you know, she said that, and that was the end of the conversation. I just let it go after that, but I just always thought about it. And then as as the story I write about my grandmother a lot, there's other characters. The character in my first novel also based on her, she's just a really interesting person. And as the story began to come together, I just thought about this idea of like the father was nobody you know, and how, in a story that that comes to life, that's kind of where it started from. This the father is nobody, idea. And so what questions might arise if her position is the father is nobody, right? Yeah, you know, you can't you, you especially for a young black woman saying the father is nobody, well, people are going to have questions. They're not going to just let you know, say the father is nobody and leave you alone and go about their business. They're going to be way up in your business about it. And so then, yeah, all that sort of starts to come together from that, from that position of, okay, well, what questions are people going to ask? What's. Stories might come of that. What rumors might come of that? Who is she around? What dots are people going to connect in the wrong ways to get you to something quite outrageous,but in a really fun and interesting way?

Traci Thomas 25:15

Is it a challenge for you as a writer to write about a person, or like to write a story where a main person in the book is nobody.

Mia McKenzie 25:26

Well, I mean, I think what I tried to do was to not make, you know, the that they're not the you know, that they're kind of, it really is, no, it really doesn't matter, you know, the sort of position of Doris is, this is my business, right? It's not your business. And that's really it. I you know, it's a thing where someone is pregnant, so there must be a father, right? There must be someone. But also it doesn't matter, you know, we're not, that's not what this story is about. So no, that felt pretty easy to do,

Traci Thomas 25:56

yeah, one of the things that comes up a lot in the book is Doris getting information from magazines and jet and ebony. And it happens so often there'll be a person and she'll be, oh, I just read about them and this, or I just heard about this and that. And I'm wondering, I just curious about that piece of it. What Why did you want to include those magazines? And also, what do you think that having her be a magazine girlie, gives her or tells us about her.

Mia McKenzie 26:25

Well, you know, in 1960 that you don't have a lot of options for how you get your information about things, you know, so and she's also, she's poor, you know, she lives in a little, tiny, rural town. She doesn't have a television. You know, to watch TV, she has to go down to her her friend's house, who, who has, like, the only television, you know, in the neighborhood, right? Um, and so, you know, when I was growing up in the 1980s we got jet and ebony, you know, all the time, and we, when we did, I did have TV, but there wasn't a lot of talk, you know, about black people on TV. You know, there's not, there wasn't TV was very, very, very, extremely white, yeah. And you didn't get, like, if you wanted to know about the black celebrities and what they were up to, you had to, you had to look at Ebony and Jet like, that's where it was. And so I remember as a kid we had, we had just, you know, stacks of them, you know, we would get them, and then we would keep them, and we would look at them again and again, because that's the only place that we could find that stuff. And so, yeah, certainly in 1960 that was the case, if you wanted to, you know, there was no, no show that was going to be highlighting black, right performers. And so, so, yeah, using Ebony and Jet is kind of a way into that, into that world. And what Doris would have seen and read and known about these people was really fun. And, you know, felt really nostalgic for me, because I used to look at, you know, in the 80s, it was like, I used to love looking at Jet, because they would have Debbie Allen would be in and all the time, yeah, and I always say Debbie Allen made me gay. Like Debbie Allen is, like, you know, like, was like my first crush when I, you know, when I was a little kid. But yeah, I used to like, scour every day. If there was like, Debbie on the cover, or Debbie somewhere in there, I was gonna be just like, all over that magazine. So that, yeah, it was really fun to kind of add that, that piece to it.

Traci Thomas 28:20

I loved it. I loved it. I loved it so much. I mean, I mean, again, another conversation that we're having right now about media and like it just felt so I don't know of the moment, even though we, as you said before, you know, unfortunately, these fights are going on constantly. But I just loved I loved seeing it. I loved how everything she knew she got from from the magazines and just, and I think also, like, because she has this way with words, I was thinking like, you know, I'm sure she's learning about words as she's reading these magazines too, like she's learning how to be a storyteller, which is such an important part of her story. So, I mean, you just mentioned that Debbie Allen made you gay, yeah. And there's these, there's these great, you know, there's this great piece of the book, which I don't want to say too much about how it comes in, because I do think that's like, slightly spoilery. But there are these queer communities in the book that we get to see in ways that are not often depicted in these ways, in in books or in media. And so I'm curious about, without saying too much about these, about this queer black community in Atlanta.

Mia McKenzie 29:26

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm queer, and I write really queer stuff. And so, you know, in writing this book, when I knew that the main character was going to be based on my grandmother, and kind of this story about the, you know, the the pregnancy and getting an abortion, which is made up, that didn't happen, but, because my uncle exists, but, but when I knew, you know, this was, this was this was going to be that story, I still, for me as a writer, like I want a queer I want a lot of queer stuff happening. Yeah, in a novel, I. If I can get it. And so thinking about, you know, if she's going to Atlanta, which is, you know, everyone knows, is like a queer black, an important queer black place, and has always been, and now, of course, more outwardly, so, right? But even then, that's still going to have been there. And so I was excited to kind of look into what queer black life would have been like at that time in Atlanta. And so creating this story about, you know, Sylvia, and kind of the life that she lives there, and her and her, her friends, and so I had this, this idea of, like a party and queer people, and all of this came to me, really, that's one of the first things that I envisioned for the story. And I was just really excited to talk about, you know, to have Bayard Rustin and to have these, this kind of awesome queer, like, almost underground, or, you know, secret stuff, but to be able to be there, to be there in the room with it, yeah, yeah, it's, it was, that's when, that's one of my favorite things about the book. And I also just love having people have these conversations, and these, these really important conversations about the things that are happening at the time. People kind of talking about their lives in this way that you imagine that they would have, right? And but you get to kind of be right there and hearing it.

Traci Thomas 31:22

Yeah. And I think, you know, there's a version of this book where, where there, that part of the book doesn't exist, right? There's a version where it's just Doris story, and we don't get to see this other kind of, like insight into the world, into the time. And I think what you've done so beautifully is that, just like you were saying before with the Civil Rights Movement and the different conversations, different conversations, it's like we're getting to see different conversations of black Atlanta in the 1960s where we could see Sylvia, and it could be very straight and very still interesting, but like not surprising. And this was so this was just such a surprise and a delightful one for me as a reader to think about. You know, how were people able to be prominent figures in the black community and also be outwardly queer amongst their communities? And I just really was delighted by these sections.

Mia McKenzie 32:19

Yeah, and it's so it was really great to write. And, you know, Coretta Scott King, who appears in the in the novel, and is my favorite, my favorite of the icons who appear in the novel. And the first one, I knew I wanted to Corey, yeah, I wanted to, I knew I wanted to have her in there, you know, but, but Coretta Scott King was a very just, you know, she it just was a fascinating person. Really, really interesting, fascinating person. And, you know, she, she, she had excellent politics, you know, and and had a lot of gay friends, and was all about the gay rights. And so I'm looking at Coretta Scott King being all about the gay rights. And I'm going, well, she must, you know, like that, you know, like, what was she doing in 1960 you probably had some gay friends, you know. Like, I know, I know black Atlanta was, was just, I know there was plenty of gay black people there. And so if she's there, and they there, they're there, and she is a person who believes in gay rights, and went on to, you know, advocate for gay rights, then I know that didn't start, you know, in the 80s, you know. Like, I know that was already happening, right? And so then that leads me into the question of, okay, well, what? How do I connect those things, like, how? And so then Coretta Scott becomes, sort of the, the way we sort of link the two things, right, which is great. And I'm really excited about, I just love her. I love her like, and I'm really excited that she has appeared in my novel. Yeah, I feel very honored that she appeared in my novel.

Traci Thomas 33:47

I love that. And I love because, you know, what happens so much I think, in books and in storytelling is that we are told that something was seen differently in the past, and so that's the way that it was. Like, I think about how we're told about slavery, and it's like, well, that it was just a different time, and people just owned other people, and that's how it was. And it's like, okay, so you're just erasing all the people who knew that slavery was a bad thing at the time. And I feel like what your book does is it pushes back against this idea of like, homosexuality was so taboo, and nobody was gay, and everybody was straight, and everybody was married, and it's like, okay, yeah, people were married, for sure. But also, gay people have existed, and they didn't just pop up in the 1980s Right?

Mia McKenzie 34:39

Like, people be gay, people be gay. People be gay. Been Gay.

Traci Thomas 34:43

Gay, gay, will be gay like, and I think that this is I just feel like it's just it again. I keep saying delightful. I'm like, smiling as I say this, but I just felt like the representation felt so rooted and grounded and not like, oh, this person from the future is kind. Getting back to, like, have an agenda, or whatever some awful person would say. But it's like, This, of course, this is what was going on, right? And, you know, and I think about also, like, 1930s Germany, and how during the Weimar Republic, like, that was a super gay time in Berlin, right? And it's like, and that this is sort of a version of that that we get to see, and it's like, right? We it's always happened. It's always been a part of our communities and our society, and it's fun to get to go back and see it just like, exist, right?

Mia McKenzie 35:30

I mean, by Rustin was out, like he was he was out, he was an ally gay man, yes, right? You know.

Traci Thomas 35:33

And so they'd have, you think that it was like, just him, like he was just only gay man ever, and he, like, actually wasn't in any gay relationships, because he was just like, the, you know, like, it's like, right, this idea, yeah, yeah.

Mia McKenzie 35:51

But I just think that, like, the fact that he was out though, you know, even, even if you're even if you fool yourself into thinking he was the only one. He was rolling deep with these icons, these other icons too. And they were right that, you know, like, and so it's not so you can't, you can't sort of pretend that, like, you know, that you think they were just, like, we are just very against everything about you, buyer. But let's work together. Let's just, like, work together so closely, like, on everything that we do, even though we completely disapprove of you, like, no, that's not how it was. You know, like you, there is a different story. And if you look and you you do your research, and you actually understand the ways that people work together and like and also, just like there is in in, particularly in black, you know, culture and community and history, there's always been gay people just everywhere, just every where, like every church, you know, like, I don't know if y'all been to black church, but there's just a lot of gay people there. And they've always been a lot of gay people there. And that there's just never been, you know, if you're if you're looking at, you know, the Civil Rights Movement, which a lot of it, you know, churches were big, or places where a lot of things were organized into place, and there are just going to have been many, many, many gay people there, because there always have been. And so when I'm doing my research, and I'm going back and I'm finding these conversations, and I'm looking at the things that, for example, again, Coretta Scott King was involved in throughout her life, the things that she cared about throughout her life. Like I know, I can put the pieces together. I can connect the dots and say that this is a reasonable, this is a reasonable thing to imagine she would have felt and said and done, even if people want to, you know, pretend that that's not the way things happen, right?

Traci Thomas 37:42

Because people love to sort of project these their own ideas and thoughts and prejudices on historical figures based on, you know, this was the time like, Okay, well, you know, so speaking of, I guess this isn't really speaking of, but I do want to talk about the title and the cover of this book. The book is called these heathens. Tell us about I mean, the title comes up pretty quickly in the book, and the word heathens comes up a few times throughout the book, which, first of all, just like such a good word, yes, heathens, it's good in the mouth. It feels good as you say it. It looks good on the face. I just love it. But how did you come with the title these heathens? Was that always the title of the book?

Mia McKenzie 37:43

That wasn't the title, that wasn't always the title. It was a bit of a process. I do find titles difficult, um, okay, to come up with because I'm I'm trying to sort of, yeah, sometimes it's hard to feel like something is sort of capturing everything. So originally, the title was Doris Steele, which is the name of the the main character, main character, which is my grandmother's maiden name. And I was very attached to that name, because it's very sentimental, obviously, to me. And my editor actually, was like, you know, I feel like the title doesn't stick with people enough, you know. And she's like, how is it? She's not like, change it or anything, but she's like, you know, are you really married to this? Like, you know? And I was like, Yes, ma'am, I'm married to it, you know. But then, you know, I also, I'm not the person who needs to be convinced to read the book. So I'm also, you know, like, Okay, well, let me think about it. Let me think about some other possibilities. So we did some brainstorming, my editor and I, and my agent and we, and we came up some possibilities, and then it was really this process of, like, voting, you know, I asked my friends a bunch of, you know, we had a bunch of different titles, and which one do you like the best? I liked these heathens a lot, but there was a couple others I liked also. And so it just became this kind of thing where a lot of lot of people, of my friends, voted for these heathens. And there was another one they liked a lot that I'm not going to be remembering the name of what that allows--

Traci Thomas 39:48

I want you to remember so bad I want to know. Let me think, okay?

Mia McKenzie 39:53

These Heathens and oof, what was it? I don't know. I don't know. Okay, um. Um, but yeah, it was this and something else. And then I think I decided on this because it's very voice. It's very much endorses voice. She does talk about heathens, and she's always calling somebody heathen, yeah, and it's like, funny. And I also just feel like black people get, especially black people get what this means, you know, they really get this concept of, like, these heathens. Like, yeah, really, really, like, the right thing. Once I chose it, I was like, Okay, this, I think this is the one I like it. And then over time, I love it. Like I was saying to my editor just a couple of weeks ago, like, I'm so glad that we, that we chose this title. Like, I love it. It's so perfect. Yeah, it's great.

Traci Thomas 40:42

I love it. And did you have anything to do with the cover? Were you at all involved in that process?

Mia McKenzie 40:47

So my thing is, I don't want to be involved in the cover process, but somehow I always get pulled into it, but I don't want to be involved in it, because I just have too many opinions. And I just feel like, you know, I'm not a cover expert. Like, don't ask me. Like, I'm gonna have 50 opinions in like, what do I even know the sky falling? I feel like the sky falling cover is literally exactly what I asked for it to be. And that feels good, because it's a really, really cool cover, and I love it. It turned out great. But this cover, the I love this cover, and it is not. It is not. I have no input into it. It's except, like, there was an earlier cover that had a lot of input into it, and it just ended up working out. And so I was like, I'm returning to my position of, please don't ask me. Just, please don't ask me. Y'all got this, y'all experts, and my editor and all the, all the talented people at Random House came up with this. And I love also, I just love it. I love it. It's so cool. It just fits the the time period, so well. It's like, so queer, like, right there on the cover. It's got, you know, yeah, that's the black celebrity elements to it, um, Atlanta, the whole thing. So, yeah, I love this thing.

Traci Thomas 41:57

It's great. I love the cover too. I think it's such a nice I mean, it's like such a good package, between the title and the cover, and then obviously, what's inside, you know, is as good as so it's really a delightful read. Is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was?

Mia McKenzie 42:15

No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, the thing about a novel is you can write it forever. You can just keep writing and keep writing and keep writing it. There's just so many things you can say and so much you can do. But I think, yeah, I think it's great. I think it's great. There's nothing that I would, I feel like if I did any there was anything else, it would just be a whole nother book, like a whole extra book, because there's just so much to delve into. But no, I'm really, I'm really happy with, with what's in there.

Traci Thomas 42:42

And aside from Doris and the actual real life people, how do you name your characters?

Mia McKenzie 42:50

Well, the main way that I name a character, well, there's two main ways. So some some names I just really like and are they're not necessarily all that interesting of names, but I just like them. Like Kate with a C is a name, but I just like, I just like that, something that just in my head that works. There are a lot of people the the last name Lucas in, I shouldn't say a lot. There's this one, there's a Lucas in this one, last name Lucas and there's a Lucas and sky falling. Also, because my favorite teacher when I was kid was Mrs. Lucas, and so that's where that comes from. And besides that, for most characters, what I do is I look at the Social Security Administration's list of names for the year that person was born, and then I find names that you know, that they would have been named based on that and whatever, on finding things on that list that really resonate with me. Sometimes names will have a particular like they'll feel right because I knew somebody from, you know, from church, you know, when I was, you know, eight who had that name or something, and so they remind me of the character or something like that. But that's usually the way that it goes.

Traci Thomas 43:59

Yeah, and how do you like to write, how many hours a day, how often music or no in the home, out of the home, snacks and beverages rituals. Tell me about it.

Mia McKenzie 44:10

Yeah, I don't like to have any noise, any music or anything, because my, my brain will just go to the music like, okay, and it won't be, it won't stay with the story. Snacks, for sure, what? Lots of, you know, popcorn, like a kettle corn situation. I do eat way too much of it, though, sometimes. And it just like, I'm just like, Why did I eat the whole bag of kettle corn? Yeah, I, you know, I feel like I'm not as I shouldn't judge myself, but, like, I want to have some sort of ritual. I was talking to someone a couple months ago who was a visual artist, and she was talking about, like, rituals to kind of get her into the place of starting to work. And I just kind of fall into it. I'm, you know, I'm just kind of like, oh, right now I'm washing dishes, boom, I'm writing, you know, like. I have no nothing that's like, easing me kind of into getting me kind of into writing mode. And so I have this idea ever since then. I mean, this is months ago, and I still haven't done it, so we'll see. But then I'm gonna, like, I need to, like, give myself some kind of like ritual to, like, move into emotionally, move into writing. But mostly my process is just kind of all, you know, I I do outline, like, like I said, I do have an outline, and I sort of, like, have a process for kind of building the story. But as far as, like, what I'm, you know, I might be in my office in the in the winter. I don't like to be my home or home office, because I have a fireplace in the living room. So I just want to be by the fireplace. So might just be in the fireplace, in it, not in it, by the fireplace sometimes, yeah, when the nice, when the weather is nice outside, under the trees. So I could kind of be anywhere that feels, that feels good. But I need a lot of kind of, yeah, I need a lot of sort of, I guess I would call it like when I first sit down to write, it usually takes a while for me to kind of get where I need to be. I always say, if there's a day where I'm dropping my kids off at school and picking them up, as opposed to my co parent picking them up or dropping them up, they have to do both, right? There's only, like, six hours in between that is a day I'm not going to write, because that's not enough. Like, I need no, like, I need way more time, because I need to, like, slowly get into writing mode before I can actually get anything done. If I got like, eight hours or more, then I'm I'm able to, like, do a lot.

Traci Thomas 46:33

Got it, got it so, like, it takes you time to, kind of, like, ramp up. And it really does. Yeah, I see this is the, this is where the ritual would come in, right?

Mia McKenzie 46:40

Exactly. That's why I need a ritual so I can be like, Okay, I did my thing. I did whatever it was at the thing. And now I'm like, I'm mentally prepared. I'm ready to go.

Traci Thomas 46:49

Do you know who Twyla Tharp is that sounds she's really familiar, really famous choreographer, and she has a book called The creative habit, which I love. And she talks a lot about the pre work ritual of and the book is all about, like, being creative, but you should check it out and see if it inspires you to come up with your own ritual. Hers is like, going into the studio and she just, like, puts music on and moves no pen, no paper, just like, does her thing. But like, when I have a lot of work to do, I will sit down and I will light a candle, and I only light my candle on days where I know I'm going to have a lot of time like you. I also have kids that I have to take and pick up, and on days where I'm doing both, and I have, like, a lot of interviews, I don't light a candle because I'm like, I'm not actually going to really work. I'm doing other things. Yeah, but yeah, I think I like a ritual. So I'm encouraging you to find whatever feels right for you. But it doesn't have to be a big thing, right?

Mia McKenzie 47:43

Yeah, you know, yeah. I really want to do it. I'm going to. I've decided.

Traci Thomas 47:48

Report back when you come up with one, report back and let me know.

Mia McKenzie 47:52

I'm also going to report back with the other title. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was gonna stay in my head until I Yeah, please do.

Traci Thomas 47:58

I'll throw it up on socials or whatever. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Mia McKenzie 48:04

Yeah, I'm gonna be really honest and say that I am an excellent speller. Like, excellent speller. Sorry, I always have been, since I was a kid, like in Mrs. Lucas's class, I am an excellent speller, and I'm excellent at the grammar like that is just Yeah, so I don't Yeah. I don't have a word like that. Sorry.

Traci Thomas 48:26

Wow. I love the confidence. Honestly, like you are what I hope to be one day.

Mia McKenzie 48:32

You never spell.

Traci Thomas 48:33

Oh, I can't spell any words. I just discovered I can't spell thief. I put an E before the i there recommendation I cannot spell. I mean, honestly, any word, it could be a potential landmine. For me, I am truly a an abominable word. I can't spell. Speller like I it's everything Pennsylvania, Massachusetts. It's food, it's beverage, it's it's lots of consonants, it's lots of vowels, it's rhythm. Can't spell rhythm, can't spell athletic, can't spell athlete, just and everything. Yeah.

Mia McKenzie 49:08

I'm just gonna say I can even spell Massachusetts. Like, I can even do that. That one is tricky, because, you know, SS and Ts and, like, what is going on here? But yeah, I can do it

Traci Thomas 49:16

first try. The only word I can spell that comes up a lot on this podcast that people say they can't spell is restaurant. Apparently, restaurant is a very controversial word. Many of many of the biggest and brightest names who have come on this podcast have said restaurant. We literally have, like, a restaurant club now, and that's the only word that I'm like, you can't spell restaurant. How dumb are you? And then I'm over here, like, thief dog.

Anything else you over here? Putting it, putting a pH on the end of thief, yeah.

Oh, yeah, oh, it's, I'm like, how many E's? And then I'm like, thieves, like, there's just, I there's, there's basically no word that I can spell confidently, except. For restaurants, and sometimes my own name, but like even Mackenzie, when I was like, working on this, I was like, let me double check that spelling, because it could be anything I do. I can do Mia. I could do me. That's great. On your website, it says writer, author, queer, icon, auntie, but icon is crossed out. I need to know more about this.

Mia McKenzie 50:23

So I consider myself a queer icon, and, you know, I have a good, a strong standing in the queer community as a as an author, as a writer and activist and creator of Black Girl Dangerous, which had, you know, a huge impact on the culture and the queer black culture and the queer POC culture and the kind of media landscape. Um, so, but you know, I'm at a point in my life where, like, that kind of visibility, I shun it now, like I know, like I just don't, don't ask me. Don't ask me about the about the stud, the politics anymore. I don't want to, I don't want to talk about it. So, like this, you know, it signifies a shift from, like, yeah, now I'm the auntie, like, let's, you know, let's chat about, you know, let's, let's chat about coffee and in bourbon and in books. And that's, that's kind of, that's what I'm what I'm into now. I still talk about the politics with my friends, but, but I don't get a I don't get involved in too much of that in the online space anymore.

Traci Thomas 51:30

Okay, okay, that makes sense. Because I was like, I don't know. I think she's still kind of an icon for people who love these heathens. What are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with it.

Mia McKenzie 51:44

Oh, that's a good question. So one of the books that inspire in the, you know, I like, you know, I mean, I don't have to tell anybody to read this, because it's like, a hugely popular book, but the Good Lord Bird by James McBride was a book that I read some years ago and absolutely loved it. And was like, This is amazing, and it got me sort of thinking about historical fiction. And then I've read, yes, American spy, which is another historical fiction, very cool, fun. Lauren Wilkinson, American spy, really good. So I feel like those two books were kind of the books that I read that led me to deciding that I wanted to write a historical fiction. Um, so, yeah. So I recommend those, especially Lauren Wilkinson, because everybody's already read the Good Lord Bird or watch the TV series or whatever.

Also, oh, there's this book, um, this non violent stuff will get you killed. Uh, non fiction, yeah, that talks about that part of the movement that wasn't nonviolent resistance, which I actually read years ago, but just stayed with me and was on my mind a lot as I as I read this novel, and actually, like, like, you know, when I talk about going in and reading and taking really specific things, there's even a character in this, in This book that's based on someone that I read about in that, in that book. So, yeah, those are three books that I would recommend.

Traci Thomas 53:08

I love that. Okay, last question, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Mia McKenzie 53:13

Oh, my grandmother, for sure. Yeah, absolutely her. She would she would love it. She would be so into it. She would be laughing like so much. Oh, yeah, absolutely her without a doubt.

Traci Thomas 53:25

I love it. Well, everybody, you can get your copy of these heathens now. Wherever books are sold, make sure you request it at your library as well. Mia, thank you so much for being here.

Mia McKenzie 53:35

Thank you so much. This has been great. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for having me.

Traci Thomas 53:39

Thank you and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Mia Mackenzie for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Aaron Richards and Maria Bucha for making today's episode possible. Remember, our book club pick this month is the art thief, by Michael Finkel, which we will discuss on Wednesday, June 25 with Ceara O'Sullivan. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack and check out my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com, make sure you're subscribed to the stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok and check out our website at the stackspodcast.com Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer isRobin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
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