Ep. 377 The Art Thief by Michael Finkel — The Stacks Book Club (Ceara O’Sullivan)

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

It’s The Stacks' Book Club Day, and we are joined once again by Ceara O’Sullivan to discuss The Art Thief:
A True Story of Love, Crime, and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. The book explores the ethos of Stéphane Bréitwieser—the titular art thief in question—who stole and kept over two billion dollars worth of art. Together, we discuss Finkel's portrayal of Bréitwieser, the myriad of twists throughout this story, and what this book has to say about crime, ownership, and punishment.

There are spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our July book club pick will be.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Ceara O'Sullivan 0:00

I believe that art should return to its nation of origin. Of course, I believe that, and like all about retribution on all types of friends, but that's not exactly what he's doing. He's taking art just to go to him. I think the message is not wrong, but I don't think that he believes that. Yes, I agree, as evidenced by the fact that at one point he was trying to minimize the effects of his crimes and saying, I think they were only worth 30 million. And then once he got to prison, he was like, yeah, some of that stuff, I still was worth 2 billion. I was like, No, you, you've undercut yourself, sir, cut yourself.

Traci Thomas 0:50

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is the last Wednesday of the month, which means it is the Stacks Book Club Day. Today we are discussing the Art Thief: A True Story of Love,, Crime and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel, we have brought back comedian TV writer and host of the petty crimes podcast, Ceara O'Sullivan, in our chat today, we talk about the insane story of Stéphane Bréitwieser and his girlfriend, Anne Katrine Kleinklaus and the up to $2 billion worth of art they stole in a seven year period across Europe. There are a whole bunch of spoilers in today's episode, but this is non fiction, so you can listen at your own risk. A quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes, and if you like what you hear today, you should consider joining the stacks pack, which is our online community on patreon@patreon.com, slash the stacks and checking out my newsletter, Unstacked at tracithomas.substack.com both of these spaces give you perks, exclusive content, bonus episodes, plus you get to know that you are making this show possible every single week. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Ceara O'Sullivan about the art thief, by Michael Finkel.

All right, everybody, it is book club day, and we are discussing Art Thief: A True Story of Love,, Crime and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel and we have brought back the wonderful podcaster, comedian, writer, Ceara O'Sullivan, welcome back, Ceara

Ceara O'Sullivan 2:29

. Hey. Thanks for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:30

I'm so excited you're here. I'm so excited to talk about this book. I have a lot of thoughts and opinions before we dive in. I just want to let people know we will be spoiling the book so it's non fiction. You can probably Google a lot of this. But if you don't want to know what happens with Stefan bright Wieser or whatever, pause, read the book and come back. Let me give people a quick rundown. Basically, this book is the story of Stefan bright Weiser. Bright Weiser, I'm gonna say bright Weezer. I'm gonna go with bright Weezer. That feels right, who was a very prolific art thief in the 1990s and early 2000s he stole potentially up to $2 billion worth of art, unbelievable. Yeah, just, was just, and it was a, you know, it was just a casual, you know, silicone slice here. Drop it into the pants there, and he just was racking it up. And then he eventually gets caught, as I'm sure you would imagine if there's a book about him, and then we get a little trial. Oh, and he does all of this with his girlfriend, Anne, Katrine klinken, Klaus, klinklaus, Kinkklaus I don't know these names are. It's a struggle. They're from Alsace, which is French and German. So that's why you're getting Anne Katrine klinken Klaus, yes, I'm already so chaotic for this one. Oh, it's not klinken Klaus, it's Klein Klaus and Katrine Klein Klaus, anyways, Kira, we always sort of start like this for book club, generally, just generally, what did you make of the book.

Ceara O'Sullivan 4:01

I enjoyed it. It, you know, I'm not somebody who reads a ton of non fiction, and I liked this story. I thought it was interesting. Like, you know, it's one of the things that like interests me with like, the difference between like with a non fiction book is, like, I kind of know exactly how this story is going to end from the beginning, right? Yeah? Like, you know the fact that, as you've already said, the fact that it is a book, and it is called the art thief, I already know that this person has been caught, even if it's like, posthumous this, this person has been caught. Yeah, it's an interesting task for the author to manage to, like, build tension and maintain intrigue. And, you know, at a certain point I was like, I think I understand why this book is 220 pages long, because that's all you get. Even though, like, there were, you know, and there were. Were really interesting twists and turns along the way to his personal story, like I really found in the last 50 pages, a lot of things really interest me, like after he goes to jail, when Anne Katarina is in the trial and she announces that she's pregnant with a 19 month old baby, and he does the math and realizes that she got impregnated 10 months after he was first put in jail. I was like, Okay, that's a good twist.

Traci Thomas 5:25

Yeah, surprise.

Ceara O'Sullivan 5:26

This is worth a book. And then the new girlfriend and like her different reaction, as opposed also some last little tiny thought in my general thoughts category. Sorry, my vibe is chaotic too. I did think it was interesting what Finkel tried to, you know, he tried to, like, because every character needs an arc, right? Like, I write for television. I write for movies. Every character needs an arc, even if it's like a tiny character in a movie, and their arc is that, at first, they don't drink milkshakes with a straw, and at the end they're like, You know what? Straws aren't so bad. Like an arc can be anything. And I feel like he tried to give this main character the tiniest arc, when at the very, very end he is looking at a piece of art, and then he just picks up a brochure. But I was like, I was like, I don't buy it. Everything you've told us about this man is that he has not changed one single bit, and this anecdote is flimsy, and no, he has not changed, so you might as well have excluded it.

Traci Thomas 6:31

Okay, so we're gonna talk about Michael Finkle, because I found out some interesting information about the author, which we will get to. But I was pretty into this book. This book, to me, feels like non fiction. For people who don't love non fiction, okay, you are a novel person. This book has all the things that a fiction person would like. It's got wild characters. It's got twists and turns. It's got, you know, a little bit of history, a little bit of context, but mostly it's just sort of a plot driven little story. It's, we go here, we do that. And so I liked all of that,

Ceara O'Sullivan 7:11

some good like, world building, and totally, you know, you really ease your way in, yeah,

Traci Thomas 7:19

yeah. And there's a lot of parts throughout the book where you're just like, Excuse me, what, which I think is always great if you're not like, if you're not reading non fiction to learn something, you really do need to have characters behaving in a way that is, if not badly, at least, like, engaging. Oh yes. I felt overall, this book was a was a pretty decent Yes, for me, like I enjoyed it, I had a lovely time. It is a perfect summer reading. Too quick, fast. I do have some questions about the writing itself. I have some questions about what Michael Finkel chose to tell us and when he employed this thing that some writers do where he talks about something that's happened, like we already know, and then he's like, Oh, by the way, they were a dog. And you're like, Oh, well, okay, that now makes sense. And so I feel like because, and that's partially because we only really get Stefan's perspective, which we can get to, but yeah,

Ceara O'Sullivan 8:20

really, really short on Anne Katrin perspective and the mom and the mother,

Traci Thomas 8:24

yeah, and that, I think, is a challenge for any author, but I also think that is some, I think that's doing some other work for Stefan. The other thing I would say about this book, my other big, like, top level takeaway, is that this book is really a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, that we all have our skills and talents, and that once you find your skill and talent, you should really hold on to that like some of us might be really good podcasters, some of us might be great drawers, and some of us might be world class art thieves by accident.

Ceara O'Sullivan 8:59

So and this book I would that reminded me of myself, because, isn't it a truth that, like, we all love to do things we're good at and we don't like to do things that we're bad at? And this man is like, I love stealing and I hate listening to my girlfriend, and that is what I'm going to do. And I'm like, I respect Yeah. It's

Traci Thomas 9:21

like, we find your niche, you know, like, if he was an influencer, they would be like, find your niche. He knows about that, you know, post a reel about it, post a story, a carousel, a YouTube video. Just find your what he's like, Renaissance, art, theft, trinkets, yes, paintings, sure. Why not? Let me,

Ceara O'Sullivan 9:42

yeah, actually that okay, not to veer off. But that was a part that really interested me about him, is when he seemed to slightly lose his taste.

Traci Thomas 9:52

Okay, we're gonna get to that. Because that, I think that is a crucial piece of this story for me. There were a lot of little things in this book. And I was like, Michael Finkel, you need to write an entire book about this one moment. Okay, so just quickly to do a little bit of recapping. Basically, we meet Stefan. He is the child in a loving family. His parents are wealthy, then they get a divorce. The dad takes all the money, leaves the mother destitute. It's Stefan and his mother, the dad is off with a whole new family. This is the villain origin story we get. Stefan meets. He's content with his life of just looking at art and being alone, until he meets Anne Katrine, and they fall in love and then they steal a piece art together, and it's hot. They're into it. And Stefan tells us through Michael Finkel, because Michael Finkel is the only American journalist he's ever sat down with that he loved. He loves art so much. He doesn't get any joy from stealing. He is just overcome by the esthetics of it all. Stendh Hall syndrome, we later find out, is what it's called when you're overcome physically, emotionally by seeing beautiful art, very rare. But of course, Stefan has it, and he just he has to steal. Do we buy this at all? Do we buy that Stefan is stealing because he loves art so much.

Ceara O'Sullivan 11:29

I certainly believe that he loves art a lot because he knows a ton about art, you know, and I even in like, the author's notes the end, we learn that when he's in fickles hotel room, he identifies, like, you know, a 20th century right artist who typically works and connects sculptures and happened to just draw this one pic, like he really knows his stuff. And, you know, in his trial, he, like, tells the art historian. He's like, Well, actually, it wasn't. It's not, it's not, some of it's not real. And she's like, how did you know that? And he's like, Well, you know, I did a little research. And she's like, you know, I always had my suspicions. I do believe that he really, really loves art, but can I say I was thinking about him? Because I'm like, okay, but you know, a lot of people love art, and the here's what they typically do. I think there wasn't enough time spent on I think what he had is closer to being a hoarder. This okay, because he's truly, like, he's hermit crabbing, you know, the way he is, like, building this treasure trove. I think it has a lot more to do with the attic and the filling of the attic with precious items

Traci Thomas 12:49

and this being the only space he has anymore, right? Yes, he loses his home, then his mom finally gets them this house. He gets his space, yes, and the first, or one of the first things he steals is this gun that his dad had, this thing that he wanted because his dad had it. I agree. He likes art. Sure. Stefan loves art. The idea that he was not getting joy out of the stealing, or that he didn't derive any pleasure from this process, is such a fucking lie, because throughout the book, we hear about him, you know, he starts, starts to, like, call the police on himself. Yes, after he's left a location, or he leaves these frames around, he's like, you know, sort of my calling card. Yes. You're not getting off on this. You're not doing that. You're not if the whole thing is just, I want these pieces so badly, I love them so badly, there's no way you're fucking around like that, dicking around marking the back of the paintings with your your name and your girlfriend's name, you're not doing it. But I even go further, because the whole thing is we're supposed to believe is that he just, like, doesn't prepare and he doesn't plan, and he just walks in. Just walks in and he steals whatever speaks to him. I don't even buy that. No, he worked as a museum security guard. You guys, what are you telling me? You're telling me those two things are just totally unrelated. He wasn't case in the joints. He's he's taking the brochures, he's studying the museums. He's not just looking at the art. He's looking at what the art is encased in he is planning these heists. And I think that Michael Finkel sort of has his own, like kink going on with this story that clouds what information like he does not do a rigorous journalist job. I don't like I think he wanted to tell this story. Do you know what I mean?

Ceara O'Sullivan 14:42

Well, do you think like when a journalist builds a rapport with somebody slowly, over time and they've earned their trust? Do you think he feels like indebted to to him in some way, or he feels obligated to portray him in a pot? You know what I mean? Like. Like, yeah, it must be hard to, like, spend so much time with somebody and then turn around, back around, and be like, and here's the truth, honey. Like, okay, no, so

Traci Thomas 15:08

yes, I think that this can happen. However. Let me, okay, let me, let me reveal my information I have about Michael Finkel, because I think this is, I think this is important in 2002 Michael Finkel was a reporter at The New York Times. He was fired from the New York Times because a story he wrote about African children being sold into slavery was found to be fabricated. He wrote a story about one kid, but it was actually allegedly a composite character, so he had taken other people, and there actually had not been enough research to prove that there were children being sold into slavery in this way. Mm, so he gets fired from the New York Times. He basically is, you know, a just becomes a disgraced journalist. He then finds out, I think, in 2005 or soon thereafter, I think he writes the book of 2005 that a man who was suspected of killing his wife and children. I think his name is Christian Longo. When he was on the run in Mexico City, was using the name Michael Finkel as his alias. So Michael Finkel goes to this man in prison. He starts a rapport with him and ends up writing this memoir that rebounds him into being no longer a disgraced journalist. Wow. And the book gets turned into a movie with Jonah Hill and not Adam Driver, but the other one that looks like that. Who am I thinking of? It's called True story. Oh. James Franco, I think, oh, okay, I think they're sort of a similar look. Yeah, not this movie. Sounds like a bit of a B side, but apparently it's, apparently it's not good. Yes, it's James Franco and Jonah Hill. So this book now the art thief, comes on the heels of these two things. One is a redemption arc for a criminal, and two is a disgraced person getting a second chance. So this makes me have thoughts and feelings about the agenda of Michael Finkel, because Can we trust him? I don't know. Maybe, you know, I don't believe once a liar, always a liar, but also, we're all liars, right? Like, if you're a journalist, you want to tell the best possible story you can. I think also, he is attracted to people who have been discarded by culture, right? Like, of course he is. And I think my guess he doesn't talk about how he does it, but my guess is that the way that he gets Stefan to talk to him is to be like, I know what it's like. Like, I've been there and he endears himself to him in some way, which is a book that I would also love to read. Like, how do you go into this? Being like, Yes, I was once, if you Google me, because if you Google Michael Finkel, it's like career in 2002 this thing happened, and then everything unfolds. So all of that being said, I come back to your question of, Do you think a journalist sometimes goes into these situations and doesn't want to like shit on someone that they spent all this time with? I think yes, that happened, but I generally think that journalists who write these kinds of books go in and tell their subject you don't have any control over this. I'm going to write what I want to write. I'm going to find what I want to find and I don't know, and tell me what I need to know. Tell me your story. Tell me your story, and I'm going to do my due diligence, and I'm going to write the story I want to write, and I don't, and I'm sure that's what Finkel said, but I also think that Finkel wants to tell a good story.

Ceara O'Sullivan 18:36

But it also makes sense now that he's like, this is now a little bit his ethos as a writer is he's like, I tell a redemptive story about somebody you might consider to be an irredeemable person, and I find what is sympathetic about this person that that makes sense to me, yeah,

Traci Thomas 18:56

and so and I, so I googled him, like, when we picked the book, just to be Like, let me just make sure this guy's Oh, yeah, sure. And I was like, I think this is an okay. I don't know. I think being a journalist who lies is pretty despicable. I think it's less I think it happens more often than we think. I think journalists fabricate these things a lot. So to me, it didn't feel like an offense that I that is not worth discussing. But I do think it's a really interesting part of this, like I couldn't then read the book without sort of having this in my mind. So for those of you who read it and didn't know this information going in, I'm sure it probably changes a little bit. But for those of you who read this book, knowing this, I'm sure it also tainted how you read it, if you're anything like me,

Ceara O'Sullivan 19:41

although also, like, I think you're right. Like, you know, corner cutting happens in every industry. Journalists are not immune to that. Particularly, like, now you would get caught, and you'd know you'd get caught. But like journalists, like in the, you know, in the 90s and earlier, it's happening all the time. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 20:00

Yeah, someone won a Pulitzer Prize. Oh yeah, and then they had to revoke it, because nobody did the due diligence to find out it was all a lie.

Ceara O'Sullivan 20:08

No worries, yeah, but abd but maybe also, I mean, he was, seems like he was really, like, lambasted. It might have been something that he learned from. So maybe you can really trust this story. I don't know two

Traci Thomas 20:21

ways to look. I agree. I think, I think that's right. I think it's probably I. I don't think there's anything in this book that is untrue or like was a lie. I do think the way that we frame these kinds of men is part of this story, is part of Michael Finkel story and and part of Stefan bright visa story as well. Okay, so, so now we all have the same information. That's the only, like, really shocking thing that I found out in my research. Writing this, I felt like a real journalist. Why not? And all of that you can find on Wikipedia, ladies and gentlemen, to believe I also, I also listened to some things on NPR. I did, I did a little bit of research. I didn't go full. I didn't go full. Michael Finkel here, I just did a little halfsies. Okay, so where were we? Oh, we were talking about, do we believe that this guy is, you know, this, like, what's going on here? Casual, just beef. I just I cannot, I cannot, I cannot, buy it. But one of the arguments that Stefan makes, that I would like to talk to you about, is that it's this conversation of who owns art. The story of art is stealing. Is something that Stefan says. He talks about how you know the colonizers they plunder. We know this to be true. We know that museums are filled with art and artifacts from all over the world that do not belong to the nations and people that they belong to. So what is your feeling about the actual criminality of Stefan's crimes?

Ceara O'Sullivan 21:59

So my feeling is and something like, I think that, like, I hold dear in my own life is based on this children's book that was read to me when I was a kid called, What if everybody did and, you know, it just kind of lets you know, like, hey, the reason we don't throw trash out the backseat window and we're in a car is because what if everybody did like, here's what the world would look like. And, you know, there's sort of, like, this tacit code of ethics, and there's, you know, laws that stop us all from doing the things that like. Wouldn't it be nice to go to a museum and take something and then put it on your wall at home? Sure, it would be awesome, and we could all do it, and then there would be no museums at

Traci Thomas 22:44

all. Yeah. So I, intellectually, I think I fall more on the side of Stefan here, like, to me, I'm like, okay, like, if you wanna steal the art, you can steal it back, do your thing. But I don't buy the argument from him.

Ceara O'Sullivan 23:04

I don't think that's why. I just don't

Traci Thomas 23:07

think that he has the radical politics to be a person who is doing this for a political sort of you know, he's not doing this because he really wants to stick it to the art world and say, You all stole this from Egypt, so I'm stealing it back. He's also not stealing artifacts that are from other places. He's it's not only things that are like Flemish, yeah, it's like the Flemish things he wants. And so while his argument, to me, is like a sound argument, right? Like, I agree, maybe we shouldn't be stealing other people's artifacts, locking them in a building and then charging people to come see these things, right? Like I understand that maybe art should be accessible to people, especially art you stole that being said, I don't think Stefan is necessarily the messenger on this one. I don't think you're stealing it as a Robin Hood situation, because not only are you then locking it up in your house, you're locking it up and you're not even letting your mom see it. Only you and Anne Katrine can see it. Like that's not that's not bringing art back to the people well, also, like, I believe that art should return to its nation of origin. Of course I believe that, and like all about retribution on all types of friends, but that's he. That's not exactly what he's doing. He's taking art just to go to him. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I agree with it philosophically. Like, I'm like, I'm not gonna lose sleep over someone stealing art from a museum, because, like, the poor art and like, what will we do? Like, I don't really care, yeah. But I also find to him to be a particularly interesting messenger, because I don't buy that. That's why you're doing it. My guy, like, I know it's not, yeah,

Ceara O'Sullivan 24:47

I also think, like, given his tastes, all of that art moved to the museum by relatively ethical means. Like, it was, sounds like

Traci Thomas 24:56

people just bought it. I mean, he does have an art he does have this argument around, like. The exorbitant costs of art. And I think, like, okay, but also, artists deserve to be paid as much as the market will bear. I mean, if you want to take on capitalism, like, let's do it, babe. But that's like, I don't feel like that's what he's doing either. So to me, like, I think his arguments are sound like I don't have a problem with it. I just don't believe that that is his motive. And for him to sort of pretend like it is, is just like someone, you're just young, you're just a young, white guy who can get away with it, and you're fucking soaking it up, and you're, you know, it's like the people who go out to the protests who are like, Yeah, I just, I fucking believe in this. And I'm like, What? What do you Yeah, what is this? Define this. So, I mean, but you know, the museum system we could update maybe,

Speaker 1 25:51

yeah, we could work on it. We could work on it.

Traci Thomas 25:57

Okay, so he and Anne Katrine, they steal a bunch of stuff. They set up like, you know, some ground rules. If she says, No, the thing is off. They just steal the things that really speak to them. They go home, they lay in their attic, and they look at the art, and they just fucking feel good about it. They make videos gloating about how great all of these things are. Then we fast forward a little bit, and Katrine and Stephan take his mother to out of town. I go out of town, quick trip. It's a birthday trip, I believe, but not to be confused, it is also a thievery trip. The mom conveniently goes outside because an important piece of this story to Stephan and now to us is that the mother knew nothing.

Ceara O'Sullivan 26:46

Yes, somehow,

Traci Thomas 26:48

though, every indication we get is that the mother actually knew things, including the video evidence that is given to us by Michael Finkel, the mother conveniently goes outside to walk her dogs, because dogs are not allowed in art museums, which I feel like this makes sense for me, they steal a piece. Also, on this trip, we find out that and Katrina is pregnant and needs to have an abortion because she's like, I love you, Stefan. But also,

Ceara O'Sullivan 27:20

no babe, one of those moments, though, that you talked about, where the or the order that he tells us the thing is interesting. This

Traci Thomas 27:28

is, yes, this is one of those moments. A lot of the moments like this happen around and Katrine and the mother, because I think that's the only way he can thread the needle and telling the story without just giving up all the information because he doesn't, because we don't, we don't get the thing where it's like, there's two sides to the story. So we hear Stefan said, and then we hear and Katrina, it's like, Nope, we just get so, so she's pregnant. She decides I gotta go to the doctor. I don't feel good. And the mom's like, Okay, I'll go with you. And Stefan's like, Okay, have fun, girls. I'll drop you off and I'll go steal some things. Come back. Great. Rest of the trip, everybody goes home. Stefan later finds the receipt, or gets, gets a receipt for comes in the mail, comes in the mail. He's like, pregnancy termination. Weird. Wait, I remember this day. This is the day I stole the great Bulger, the greatest painting on copper, that bitch. So she comes home, he hits her, Oh, he goes to her place of work, and he hits her, yeah, oh, he goes to her place of work. I thought she came home and he hit her. Maybe, maybe, maybe it doesn't matter where there's a hit, he screams at her, she flees. There's a breakup.

Ceara O'Sullivan 28:47

Yeah, I have to say, I didn't feel like the storytelling was like, particularly deft in this little abortion to domestic assault section. I was like, ah, and I appreciate that. Maybe he was missing, you know, he he only had threads to go off of. But I was like, oh,

Traci Thomas 29:05

yeah, well, this is the part of the story we're not having anyone else. Yeah, to to corroborate here, like we already have a problem of storytelling, which is that Stefan has exactly one friend who's not his mom and his girlfriend at this time, and it is the art framer guy who just, like, teaches him how to frame art. And then he goes to him and says, 16 by 12, two inches deep. And then he goes home and builds the frame himself, like I'm so suddenly this guy also didn't know what was going on. Yeah, I just the idea that nobody in his life had any clue, even though they had all the clues in front of them. Like, Mom, your whole house, they're bringing home all these pieces of art and like, yeah, we got it at a flea market. And she's, yeah. Love this for you, babe. You're such a collector.

Ceara O'Sullivan 29:55

He's stealing five times a month. And it's like, I have no idea. What's in the attic,

Traci Thomas 30:02

and also, just like, Honey, I love you so much. I bet the attic is crowded. Do you want to put any of those pieces downstairs in the living room or in the dining room, where we have dinner every night, because we're also told that they have dinner every night. So hey, how was your day today? Great. Just went to the flea market. Where are you getting all this money for the flea market? Don't know. It's really cheap. Don't have a job, and Katrine buy like there's just, I can't believe that the mom doesn't know. Yeah, anyway. So I think part of the reason that this part of the storytelling gets so slim is because we only have to go off Stefan, and we know that he's lying about a lot of this stuff, because he lies about it later in the story on record. So they break up. And to me, this is the part where we go from this is, this is the moment that we get the beginning of of the taste changing. I absolutely agree, yes, because Anne Katrine does come back to him, and she's like, there's new rules. Oh, wait, no, no, no, I'm sorry. She does come back to him. Then they go to Switzerland and get caught. Or did I transpose those? Do they get caught in Switzerland first? I fucked it up. I know what happens. There's the pregnancy, then they go to Switzerland and get caught. Then the receipt comes in, yes, because she is stressed out about being with him after they get caught in Switzerland, but she, like, doesn't know what to do. Then they get caught, then he beats her up, and then they break up. When they come back together, I'll go back to them getting caught in Switzerland, because that's not nothing when they come back together. She puts down ground rules. She says, You gotta wear gloves. I know, no going to Switzerland, no stealing in Switzerland. And I think those are basically the rules, right? Am I forgetting one? That's it. I think that's it. Those are the important ones.

Ceara O'Sullivan 32:00

It to me like, this is when I because I was really the whole book. I was so I was thinking, what's going on with him? What is it? And I really think it was an addiction to stealing, and this is the most I felt like, Okay, this is an addict, and this is an addict's partner where, like, the stealing is the problem. It is so obvious it is the problem. She is not addicted to stealing, but her partner is. So she is engaging in the practice of heavy stealing. So like, her lifestyle has been affected. She is starting with these ground rules that are somewhere along the lines of like, can you just not drink in the mornings? Can you just not Can we just not steal in places that there are security cameras and it's crowded, and then, as it's intensifying, the ground rules are getting worse, but at no point is she doing what actually needs to be done, which is no more stealing at all. It's just that, like she's making more rules and she's making it more difficult. And I also, and another reason I felt like it was showing itself as an addiction is because what ended up the straw that broke the camel's back wasn't actually a stealing moment, it was like this domestic assault incident, which like that is what's going on in the addicts brain, everything's so addled the priorities, and it ended up resulting in this, you know, symptom of the addiction, right?

Traci Thomas 33:33

Because their relationship is not just a relationship about two people, the stealing is like this other part of their relationship, because when they're broken up, he steals nothing, yes, later on, he does steal things by himself, and earlier on, there's a few times where he steals things by himself, like when she's getting an abortion. But while they're broken up, he steals nothing, and then when they get back together, he starts stealing ugly, stupid shit, yes, and I feel like so my my psychoanalysis as a professionally, licensedly trained therapist. We call it. We say licensely trained. That's sort of like the lingo. Is that the fear of losing the ability to steal, slash, be with the girlfriend. Turns it into the hoarding before, there was discernment before, when they were in it together, there was always like, we're in this together. We can take what we want, like, this is like the sexy thing. And then when she goes away, and this whole thing disappears, when he's able to do it again. That's when it becomes, like, full fledged addiction. That's when it becomes full fledged hoarding, because he can't, he couldn't do it, and he realized how much he had to do it. He, like, wasn't living his life without doing it. And so then he's like, fuck it. This could go away at any moment. I'm gonna just steal. And this is. He starts to get reckless. This is when he starts to steal the ugliest shit, to the point that, like, later on in the book, when, when there's, like, this tapestry he steals, and then it's thrown on the side of the road by the mother. And then we find out that the fucking police find it, and they're like, this is from a flea market trash. Like everybody who finds his art later on is like, this is literal trash. I'm gonna put it on my chicken coop. And like, and Katrine is, like, we already have one of these. This is the third best one of these. Like, it's just like, he's out of control. And I think this like shift, this breakup, not the arrest, but the like breakup is the thing. So that's my theory about this whole thing. You know what we should do? We should take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. Okay, we are back. Let's continue on with, sort of the narrative, the story, and then, and then there's some things I'm talking about. So we've done the hoarding, we've done the abortion. He gets a job in Switzerland three years after this arrest, and I guess we should do what happens in Switzerland. In Switzerland, they go to this like art gallery, and they're the only people there. And she's like, Don't fucking do it. And he's like, Okay, I won't. But then he steals, like, some painting. And they get out and they're walking on the street and someone taps them on the shoulder, and it is the art gallery person and the police, and they're like, What the fuck they get arrested. They get thrown in jail. They're separated immediately. They both say nothing. They both are, like, we've never done this before. No big deal. They get off with a I'm so sorry. I just love the piece so much I wanted to steal it. We've never done this before. This was just such bad behavior. So sorry. Switzerland is like, Okay, a little fine. They spent like, two nights in jail or something, go home. You can't come back for three years. Three years later, Stefan is like, God, I'm dying to be employed after not having been employed this entire time, I want to be a waiter in Switzerland.

Ceara O'Sullivan 37:19

I would just love a 90 minute commute to my waiting, waiting tables job.

Traci Thomas 37:25

And I live in a country called France, where we are not known for food or restaurants. So yeah, he he drives very far to go to Switzerland, and remember now the rules post abortion fight are no stealing in Switzerland, which, of course, as you know, Stefan loves a rule, so he immediately starts stealing Switzerland again. Yeah, he also takes her on a vacation to the Dominican Republic, which was just casually thrown in because he's making the most money he's ever made in his life, which makes sense because he's basically had two jobs that we know of. One was being a security guard at an art museum, and two is being a very high paid waiter at a Swiss restaurant.

Ceara O'Sullivan 38:11

Moments like the, you know, the two week sojourned the DR reminded me that this story is taking place in the late 90s and early 2000s like, sometimes, wouldn't you sometimes forget and be like, I think it's 1910 and then you'd remember like, Oh, this is like, fully in modern times.

Traci Thomas 38:30

Well, I kept being like, this man is 50 years old. I was like, 25 I think the time period was like, fine, because, like, they established that early. But even though they told us at the end of the first chapter, like, end, he's only 25 I know I was like, only a 50 year old man would behave in this way, like, I just, like, I just, I mean, I don't know any 25 year old art snobs. I know they exist. I just don't know those people. So to me, this is just feels like an old person thing. Not that 50 is old. I don't mean that I'm getting

Unknown Speaker 39:01

there. 50 year olds love art. Yeah, I'm just like, 50 year olds love

Traci Thomas 39:05

art. But yes, these these moments of, like, this romantic getaway. I'm like, oh, right, you're 27 like, you're 27 and

Ceara O'Sullivan 39:13

like, the years 2001 like, what is happening?

Traci Thomas 39:19

It's like, pre 911 you guys are just bought your tickets that day, just fucked up, got on the plane. Okay, so then they come back. They start stealing again together, pretty much right away, but, but then he starts stealing on his own in Switzerland, he starts stealing again, crap. He goes back. Starts going back to places a lot. He goes to a place he's been to before, to steal a 100 foot tapestry. He brings a duffel bag. I just like this whole thing. This is like we fully jumped the shark of all the things that Stefan has told us about what he's doing and why, right? Like, it's like only things you can put in your. Pocket, my guy, you brought a full duffel throughout the window. It's around this part in the book that we also find out that, like I'm taking it because the art needs to be loved and cared for, where we find out that he's super gluing the art, that he's right, like throwing it out of windows. He's stuffing it under his bed. He they're dropping things. They're breaking. Like, yeah, the fantasy that Michael Finkel sells us, and I do, I do want to give him some credit, because I think that he intentionally sells us this fantasy and respects his reader enough to for us to be like, This is not what we were told, yeah, like, Yes. He doesn't think that we're like, that we're believing this anymore. Or, like, he set it up so that we also can be like, Oh my god, everything's falling apart, of course. Like, he tells us about the basket in the bathroom full of bronze sculptures. Like he, he, he wants us to go on this, this journey,

Ceara O'Sullivan 41:01

sure, with everybody, and it's a change in the character

Traci Thomas 41:05

too. Like, this is part of the arc. This is part of the arc. I mean, I do think that Stefan bright Weezer has a great character arc. I think it's a full heel turn, though, and not a redemptive arc. Yes, right, exactly. Yeah. We go from like, plausible, you know, Robin Hood situation, into full bad guy, yeah, eventually we're in Switzerland again. We're back in Lucerne, the same city that he has been apprehended for. He goes to a museum by himself, gets on a chair, climbs up to the ceiling, and cuts down of bugle, a Wagner bugle, that is, I believe, I believe. And Katrin, this is the thing where she's like, we have like, three of these. This is the worst one, yeah. And he goes back, and he recounts the story to her, and she says, but did you wear gloves? And he's like, Oh my god, oops. I'm so sorry. I'll go back. And she goes, No, I'll go back. I know. Would you go back? Kira,

Ceara O'Sullivan 42:24

no,

Traci Thomas 42:27

I have never gone back before.

Ceara O'Sullivan 42:30

No, I do. No, I would not have gone back. I also, like around this time, I really started to question, sort of from the point of him getting the restaurant job in Switzerland. I was like, Do you want to be caught? Yeah, this

Traci Thomas 42:48

is what I'm saying. He's into the kink of the stealing. Yes, it's not the fucking art, okay,

Ceara O'Sullivan 42:53

no, and maybe it was, but it's not anymore, but

Traci Thomas 42:57

it's the stealing. It's, yeah, it's the thrill. I mean, we get that the first deal, how he talks about, like, he's so nervous, he's so nervous, and eventually the relief comes. And that, like, every time the relief comes faster and faster. So like, to your addiction point, it's sounding like, you know, a hit of something, yeah, but yes, I the behavior. But she, if, if this, if he's typically believed she is the one who's like, we're gonna go back, I'm gonna go back in and wipe your fingerprints off. 24 hours later,

Ceara O'Sullivan 43:28

I know I think she doesn't trust him is, but I don't quite what's your take on that move.

Traci Thomas 43:37

To me, that's fucking crazy. There's only two real explanations for me here, that Anne Katrine is dumb as rocks, or that that this is not actually what happened. Stefan is lying to Finkle to make the story make sense, or like to make it feel less bad, right? To go back, when the only time I think previous that they've ever, like, gone back is there was an encounter earlier where they, like, had to, like, go in and fix something, but they like, they left something, or it was like, something very minor, and they hadn't really left the scene of the crime. They'd like, forgotten something and ran back in or and then they go have lunch at the museum cafe or something like that. And they realize, yeah, yeah. And they realize that, like, if you play it cool and you eat at the cafe and you say bye to everyone, that nobody suspects you, but this 24 hours later, going back thing and him saying that it's her idea, to me, it's, it's fishy. I don't, yeah, it just doesn't. It doesn't make sense. I would say a

Ceara O'Sullivan 44:44

closer version of reality could be he went to the museum. He didn't have gloves. The the bugle overtook him. He had to steal it. He brings it home, and he's like, I didn't have gloves on. We have to go back. You need to go in the museum. And. You need to wipe off my fingerprints. Okay?

Traci Thomas 45:02

This, this. This works for me. My only pushback on this is, I don't think he's been stealing with gloves this whole time. Anytime he's stealing alone, he's not putting the gloves on. Interesting. The gloves are her thing. He's, yeah, he thinks he's above gloves, right, right, right, right. Like he What does he need gloves for? Like, he's not getting caught. It's also

Ceara O'Sullivan 45:22

interesting, because, like, the like, what a nice, like, tension building device is, like, the fact that fingerprinting technology is improving as time goes on. Sure, by the end, I'm like, oh my god, buddy. Like, we are fully in the age of like, we all have desktop computers, like, put on damn gloves.

Traci Thomas 45:46

Yes, yes, 1,000% so, however, however, this is to be believed. They go back, yeah. She does not go inside. She goes inside, then she comes walking out, and she's, like, making faces at him across this park. Get out of here. You know, he's like, What the fuck is going on with her face? He's apprehended. The police pull up. He's apprehended. We don't this is again, another point in the story where we don't know what's happened. Michael Finkel knows what's happened, but we do not. All we know is that he is being locked up. We come to find out that that he has been spotted because there was a call out about the bugle on the local news. Some guy who walks this park all the time recognized the jacket that he heard about in the news story, and that's how they find him. That's how they catch him, because he goes back to the scene on the crime like a fucking idiot. I'm gonna skip a lot because we are running out of time, and I want to make sure we get to this fucking trial. Good. Basically, the guy who the like the police officers who are doing all this art stuff, they're in all these different countries, they're not talking to each other, but the guy in Switzerland who gets bright wiser is like, something's up. This guy played it really cool with me. I don't know. Then we find out again. This is something we find out later in the storytelling, that all of this art has been discovered in this canal in France. The detective is like, I'm just gonna try it. He floats the picture out. He's like, we know it's you. We know this is your art. Did you steal this? And he's like, if you say that you stole it, you can be free. And he's like, Okay, I stole it. And he's like, what about this? And he's like, Yeah, I stole this too. And then he like, does it again? And then bright Weezer is like, oh. And he's like, how about all of these? And pulls out 135 pictures from his Polaroid bag. The we then we find out that the mother, allegedly working by her own lonesome, empties the attic. She takes all of these tchotchkes. Excuse me, Flemish artists, but that's what they are. All these tchotchkes. She dumps them in this canal. She then we find out that all of the paintings have not been recovered. This part of the book was stunning,

Ceara O'Sullivan 48:01

I know.

Traci Thomas 48:05

And then we get this scene in the book again, another moment where Finkle holds out on us. We get this part of the moment in the book, which I want to talk about, where bright Weezer is like, we don't know what's happened with the paintings. We just know what's happened with art. And bright Weasel is like, my mom did this to protect me, just like if you find out the police are coming and you've got drugs, yep, you flush them down the toilet exactly, or you do them all really quick you do or you put them in your vagina, and then we find out. Then the mom says, I did it to punish him. Hate his art. And we're like, did what? What did you do, mom, the mom, burned the fucking painting. Burned them hundreds of 1000s of dollars of paintings. So Kira, here is my question to you, yeah, criminal or minimal burning these fucking paintings.

Ceara O'Sullivan 49:01

Criminal. Extremely criminal. I am an art lover. No ounce of this punishment befits his crime in what world like it's horror, it's horrible. It's this

Traci Thomas 49:16

is, this is petty crime like Pantheon, yes, it is because she does this to be a fucking asshole. Oh, she does it to be petty. Yes, petty because there's a version of this where she says, Oh, my God, I found all this art in my son's attic. I had no idea here. Or there's a version where she just drops it in a field and waits for someone to find it. It is the dousing it in gasoline, perhaps, but maybe not, because fire is flammable and just poof God. And also, she won't tell anyone what she's done the.

Ceara O'Sullivan 50:00

Only thing I will say is that it is possible that the mother was doing, you know what you do when the cops are coming for the drugs and flushing them all away, and she does. She tells us, like retroactively, that she has done it to punish her son. But that could be an excuse so that so that she is not implicated, because what she is doing is destroying evidence.

Traci Thomas 50:29

Yes, yes. I mean, she there is a world, Yes, correct? There is a world that she is protecting her son. This is the best idea she comes up with. Yeah, I do think you would have been better off just throwing it all in the canal than fucking burning the wooden art. That is crazy to me, because, I mean, look, I you know what she might not be. I don't know. I can't diagnose her. All I know is that this moment in the book, I was like, Are you? Are you kidding? Oh, gagged, yeah. Because, because, the whole time I just assumed the art eventually got back, right, yes, like, Finkle is leading us to Yes, and then we find it in the canal, great the arts going back. This is a, this is a victimless crime, but it is not a victimless crime. These beautiful paintings,

Ceara O'Sullivan 51:20

billion dollars worth of paintings were burned,

Traci Thomas 51:23

were burned, just burned, and, and this, this, to me, is the part of the book that I found fascinating. Yeah, Stefan is put in jail for his crimes. The mom is, like, given a fine. I don't know. I don't I. I'm not a prison person, no, but if you're gonna say one person goes to jail and one person pays a fine, I'm blocking up mother dearest, wow, I am, I am she? She did the irreparable harm, like she can't be taken back. Obviously, Stefan got the ball rolling. If not for Stefan, the mom doesn't have access to the art, so I'm just saying if one person, if it's fuck Mary, kill, but it's really just fucking kill, right? Like, if it's jail or fine, yeah, in to me, the mom has done the thing that owes a debt to society. She has destroyed the culture. He just owes me money. I

Ceara O'Sullivan 52:28

wonder if it's a matter of like, the counts against it, because it's been seven years of like, five times a month, three times with a girlfriend, two times not like, and the mom more just like, one time was like,

Traci Thomas 52:41

Oops, yeah. I mean, correct. And I think it's interesting, because they say in the book in Switzerland, the laws are as such, that it's not the crime, it's how you commit it. So if you steal a candy bar with a gun, you're gonna get more jail time than if you just than if you steal a very expensive diamond, wow, because the harm to humans, the potential harm to people, is the thing that they're after. So his crimes only could have maximum gotten him five years in Switzerland, in America, he's still in jail and will be in jail for the rest of his life, because America is obsessed with prisons. And also the mom is in jail, and also Ann Catrin is in jail, and also the framer guy is in jail. In this country, they're all buried under the jail, yeah, but in Switzerland, he can get max five, I think he gets three, but then gets off because he did good behavior. The mom gets basically nothing. Ann Katrine is in jail for one day. I actually one of the things I ended up loving about this book is I was like, this is a great abolitionist text. Like I was just like, I know people who read this book are so mad that he did not spend 75 years in jail. As I was reading this, I was literally like, people are gonna freak about this.

Ceara O'Sullivan 54:03

Oh, for sure, because he's not in jail. And then he keeps stealing more, and he goes back for two days, and then he steals again, and it's and I'm sure somebody reading it is thinking, like, if he were only in jail, he wouldn't still be stealing Correct,

Traci Thomas 54:18

correct. And I'm just like, let him steal the Abercrombie and Fitch jeans at the airport or whatever the fuck he was up to. Stealing at the airport is the most reckless thing, like the airport after 911

Ceara O'Sullivan 54:34

Yeah,

Traci Thomas 54:36

I just Stefan, Babe, what are you doing? He's going through it. He's going through it. Do we care that he's still stealing

Ceara O'Sullivan 54:48

what I found myself caring about or being interested in the most at the end of the book was the new girlfriend, Stephanie. Stephanie was. My shining star for me, for me. I just loved. I loved how, like, quickly she popped out of nowhere. A month in, she's like, move in with me, babe. He steals something, he puts it on her wall. His whole relationship with Anna Katrin has taught him that, like, this is gonna be okay. She boots him to the curb. Takes an iPhone picture. I guess at this point she maybe she took a Blackberry. She took a Blackberry. BPM, yeah, exactly. She BBM, this to the cops. And she was like, put this man away for a night or two because he stole something and I'm not with him anymore. I was

Traci Thomas 55:40

like, I'm not go, girl, yes, I thought I loved it. I loved it. Even the dad was like, boo, yeah. He was like, you've, you have learned nothing,

Ceara O'Sullivan 55:53

yes, what? Okay, if we are in a

Traci Thomas 55:56

world such as Switzerland or, you know, a world without prison, is there restitution that we feel like he owes us or society? Is there anything that you would like to see happen to him for his behavior?

Ceara O'Sullivan 56:12

That is such a good question. I mean, in the in the book, he has this like sort of Tete, a Tete with therapy. Of course, I would love him to have some, like, inpatient treatment and, and I kind of think it's about leave it there. Yeah, you know, he, he, I'm not a prison person, but I oftentimes feel like crimes committed. They, they like, he's miserable in the Yeah, like, his life fucking sucks. And I'm like, well, that's enough for me.

Traci Thomas 56:47

So this is what I thought of, which actually I thought of because of Stefan, which is that they should force him to actually work as museum security. I thought

Ceara O'Sullivan 56:58

was a great idea. Oh, his like, suggestion at the end of that, like, ghost written book,

Traci Thomas 57:03

yes? Because it's like, Catch Me If You Can. Yeah, right. It's like, you have this the hackers help you protect. Help you learn how to beat hackers. Like you hire that person to protect these museums. Because it sounds like there's a lot of very small fixes, right? Like he wasn't going into the louver and stealing shit. He wasn't, like, masterminding, he was just walking in and, like, lifting up a case. Yeah, you know, like, I'm just like, let him pay you back by helping make these places more secure. Let him do his, like, debt to society by taking his skill set and putting it to good use. Because also, I genuinely believe, if he felt seen and useful, and that people were impressed by him, and they stroked his ego just a little bit by being like, how can you help us? I bet he wouldn't steal. I bet he would do obsessed. I bet he would become obsessed with catching people who try to steal on his new system. I think he is into the kink of being the best at it, of being, of being the star, like they can't get me. I'm so smart. So if you just set him up, give him a little video camera, you put him in a little room, and you say,

Ceara O'Sullivan 58:11

protect this. See, only thing is like, I just don't I. I just don't trust him enough to believe that he wouldn't have that job and still be stealing. I

Traci Thomas 58:27

actually, I think he would. But you know what I think he would do? I think he'd have the job and then he'd go to another museum and steal, and then be like, You should hire me. Oh, my God, he would be able to get off on being like, I did steal this

Ceara O'Sullivan 58:38

thing. Yeah, I

Traci Thomas 58:41

don't know. I mean, I he has a skill set. We should be putting it to good use, like, and, you know, I think you can't really talk about this guy in this book and not talk about the fact that, like this, like, preppy white boy who's stealing all this billions of dollars of art gets this whole lovely book and, uh huh, like, gets this whole redemptive arc from Michael Finkel when there are so many people who have been locked up in jail for literally stealing a candy bar. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just it is the book is such a, like, fun little romp, until you sit down and think about any element of it for too long, and then you're like, What the fuck are we doing here?

Ceara O'Sullivan 59:21

Yeah, and there's all different ways to look at it too, because it is, on some level, incredible how skilled he is. It is unbelievable. I could not go into a museum and steal a single piece of art

Traci Thomas 59:41

I couldn't steal a fucking pin from the gift shop. No, I don't have the balls person. Oh,

Ceara O'Sullivan 59:49

I would cheer myself in

Traci Thomas 59:50

Yeah, I just I the anxiety of the whole thing would be too much for me. I have such a guilty conscience. I've never stolen anything in my entire life. I. Wow. I know Christian, my editor, someone said something on this podcast once, and was like, I stole something. And I was like, I never stole anything. Christian text me, and was like, you've never stolen anything. I was like, I have it. I can't do it. So I mean I and then he also, like, steals Michael finkles computer. Yeah, remember at the end, Michael Vick was like, I was like, how did you do it? And he's like, did you notice that I just stole your computer?

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:00:26

I know that wasn't like the notes on the reporting section. And I have to say, I thought that was the one time. I was like, You're a little sexy.

Traci Thomas 1:00:34

Yeah, I was into it. I was like, take it off. Yeah, it is important. So we've alluded to this a lot, but it's important just to at least say this out loud. Anne Katrine and the mother refused to speak to anyone about everything, and basically, in the end, both of their defenses are like, he's the fucking worst. And Katrine is like, I barely even dated him all the whole time I was with him. I was scared of him. I was basically Stockholm syndrome. It was my personal hell, and as evidenced by the moment I got away from him, I was immediately impregnated within less than a year. Do you think that the pregnancy was part of the defense? Like, do you think she went out and got pregnant because she was like, this will separate me from him? Wow, because we're told that she's no longer like very quickly after she's not with the with the Father.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:01:28

You know that wasn't my interpretation. My interpretation is that she really was not healed, sure, and that she was acting very much out of a wound, and just he had left a really big hole in her, and she was like, oh boy, let's, let's put something here. Yeah, okay, and, and so that was my take on it. Yours

Traci Thomas 1:01:53

is way better. Yours is much more generous to her. I had some criminal or minimal thoughts about her, to be honest. I was really torn on her, because I get it, I'm gonna take care of myself first. Yeah, I'm gonna take care of myself first. Like, if I can get out of this and sell you down the river, that's what I'm gonna do. But I thought it was a little far when he wrote her the letter and she gave it to the parole officer. Snitches that to me, that to me, was criminal, not minimal, like I was I, I was literally like, you know why? Aunt Katrine, you could have just shredded it like you didn't have to go and get him in trouble when he when she knew that he had now taken on the mantle of lying for her and saying, oh, right, she wasn't there. I don't know her can't put it on her. And I just feel like she didn't have to do that. Nobody would have known. She could have dumped it in the toilet. Could have been gone.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:02:49

You know, we didn't. We don't know that much about her new life and that kid and this partner, but I was picturing this letter arriving, and the boyfriend seeing it over her shoulder and him being like, okay, like, I kind of don't. I sort of see her as, like,

Traci Thomas 1:03:09

I don't. I don't think she does much without, like, conferring with somebody else. That's that was, you're so much more generous to her than I am. I really wanted her to be a villain, but you're, you're swaying me. I also think like if she is to be believed, like if her story that he was really scary to her, and yes, if all of that is true for her, then I understand it. Yeah, picture we get of them, though. Again, I know all through Stefan's vision, except for we do get a little bit that, like the people around her knew that they were together, but we don't, you know, they don't have friends, they don't have a community. The only person she even has in her life, it sounds like is his mom. Like, that's who goes with her to get her abortion, right? Like, so sad. That's really sad, really sad. So, so maybe because we're only getting stuff on side, he was a bigger menace than we know, and so, you know, yeah, have to imagine, because, you know, from his point of view, we've learned about the abortion, and it was already sad, and we've learned about, you know, the domestic incident, and it was already sad. And like, if he told us about one, she would have told us about five, no doubt or more so like, I think you're right. Things were really shitty for her, and I think her turning that letter into the cops was her being like, this pattern is broken. Yeah, I don't fuck with you. I'm awake now, and I Okay, minimal, okay, fine. Minimum, I was happy for her in that moment. I have to say, okay, okay, I've been swayed. I was wrong. I'm wrong. I can take that. I just think, you know, I'm always looking for a villain. I love a villain. Oh yeah. I just, I'm always want someone to be the asshole, and I feel like I would have liked them both to be monsters, as opposed to her being a victim. It's more fun to enjoy the book. Yeah, of course, of course. Okay, I think, I think that's everything. What. You watch this as a TV show or movie? Yes, I would watch the shit out of this. Step. Finish. Who do you? Who do you cast as Stefan and Ann Katrine?

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:05:09

Okay, so I looked him up because I was like, let's see. And I do think when he was 26 he was probably a good looking guy.

Traci Thomas 1:05:17

He was okay, maybe he's got my type. Well, they kept being like, He's so small and slight, like I'm tall. So I was sort of like, not for me. I know

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:05:30

there's like, a couple different ways you could do it like it could be like a Kieran Culkin, yes, but I think knowing Hollywood, we would probably get like, an Ansel Elgort.

Traci Thomas 1:05:44

Oh, okay. I think it'd be. The problem about Karen Culkin is he's a little too likable, uh huh, too endearing, like, he's too quirky. You need someone who's, like, more recluse, you know, someone who's, like, a little more could be handsome, but, like, weird, okay, kind of, kind of ick, I don't know. Well, you know who it could be, who's sort of hot, but I think could maybe do ick if we gave him a chance. Tell me is Jeremy Allen White, do you think? Oh, ick, yeah, Jeremy still got hot, but I think he could play, like, like a real, you know, locked in cuckoo be,

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:06:20

you know, also, I'm thinking of the actors who were in challengers with Zendaya last burn, that trend of rat boys summer, I think it's Mike Feist and Josh O'Connor, like either one of them,

Traci Thomas 1:06:34

yes, yes. And then for the gal who knows she, they, we, I never, I could never find a picture

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:06:41

of her, just some gorgeous wallflower, right? You think,

Traci Thomas 1:06:44

okay, I couldn't tell. Yeah, sure. I don't know any young lady actresses, I feel like, by name, except for the people who are in euphoria. But like, like in her heyday, maybe like a Brie Larson,

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:07:00

yeah, I think. So maybe, I don't know. And Anya Taylor joy,

Traci Thomas 1:07:07

she's too, like, interesting looking like, she's too striking. She walks into your museum. You're like, Who is that, yeah, but it's Hollywood, so every character is gonna be that's but she's, like, special, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Doe eyed, yeah. What about? What about that girl that everybody loves, who I don't think is very good, Florence Pugh, people love her. I don't love her. She's not my fave, but she's very pretty and but she also could kind of maybe blend in if you made her a brunette, yeah?

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:07:40

And she can play very demure, and then she can really

Traci Thomas 1:07:44

come up, yeah, maybe her, I don't know. I'm so bad at this kind of actress. It's like, really, again, I love a villain story. So I'm looking for the movies where women are allowed to be awful. Anything else that we didn't talk about that you're like, we have to talk about, I feel like we got to everything. I hope

Unknown Speaker 1:08:04

there was one section I marked one little quote that just like stood out to me.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:08:11

It's on page 104 where he really talks about Finkle, that is, talks about how art contradicts Charles Darwin's theory,

Traci Thomas 1:08:21

selection, yes, and

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:08:25

that which states that a species survives on a hostile planet, chiefly by eliminating inefficiency and waste. Creating art consumes time, effort and resources without providing food, clothing or shelter. Many art theorists now believe that the reason for arts ubiquity is that humanity has overcome natural selection. Selection. Our big brains have been released from the vigilance of evading president, of evading predators and seeking sustenance, permitting our imagination to gamble and explore. It exists because we've won the evolutionary war. Yes. And I just it's

Traci Thomas 1:09:05

like, isn't there like one little part that's like, art, art means we're free, or something like that. Yes, yeah, I love that. My thing was, though I was like, but people, artists, artists, type people, people who are creatives. Need to make things to be like, okay, so I was thinking that it might have actually had an evolutionary like purpose, in the sense that certain kinds of people could only function if they were able to have like an outlet for the rest of their their life.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:09:39

Of course, of course, I'm a writer, and, like, making art saves my life every

Traci Thomas 1:09:44

day, yeah? But I'm like, maybe that's I, you know, I feel this way about like making things too. But I'm like, maybe that's because I don't have to hunt like. I have no concept of like, if I had to, like, get berries, and I had to know what kind of berries, but I definitely. Definitely, I definitely flagged that part too. I was like, this is very interesting.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:10:04

Yeah, it was just so striking. And also to read something about art in the middle of a book which is, in and of itself, art. And, yeah, you know, it just, I was like, that's just really interesting. And also, like, the intersection of art and commerce is so interesting. And like, the idea of putting value on something that somebody's made and say and ownership and just all of that, I was like, I was really, I was really excited about those themes. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:10:32

I think, and I think there's, yes, there's these two parts of this book, right? It's like, what does this book bring up for you? And also, what is happening in this book, exactly. And I feel like, you know, we talked about the like punishment part of it, and also the sort of like argument about stealing art, because art has already been stolen. And I think, you know, I think part of re tweezer, bright tweezer, would be like to say that, you know, putting a price on these things is, is criminal and that and that he is, like vindicating that by taking it, you know, like subverting these ideas and again. So, you know, we can end here, but I'll stand by my point. He is the wrong messenger, but the message is not wrong.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:11:15

Yeah, I think the message is not wrong, but I don't think that he believes that yes, and I, I, as evidenced by the fact that at one point he was trying to minimize the effects of his crimes and saying, I think they were only worth 30 million. And then once he got to prison, he was like, yeah, some of that stuff, I still was worth 2 billion. I was like, No, you, you've undercut yourself, sir,

Traci Thomas 1:11:46

undercut yourself. Yes, of course. He's just like a little weaselly guy. Yeah, that's it. That's it. He's just a weasel. He's Brett bright weasel. And he never, ever learned his lesson. And with that, ladies and gentlemen, we you there you have it. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out our July book club pick and kirat, thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun. This was the absolute perfect book for us. I loved it. Thank you.

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:12:13

Thanks for having me. Traci, I really enjoyed it. And if you like listening to stories about petty bullshit, you should listen to petty crimes. Yes, if

Traci Thomas 1:12:24

you like this at all this, you gotta go listen. Even if you didn't like this, you should probably still listen, because they do it much better over they're very their criminal and minimal section is much better than my chaotic

Ceara O'Sullivan 1:12:36

one. I think your podcast like your podcast like adds a few brain cells and ours will take a few away.

Traci Thomas 1:12:42

Listen to me on the podcast where you can have all your brain cells disappear instantly as I as I pretend to be a French champagne lover. I love everyone else. We will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all that does it for us? Today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Kira for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Amber Watson, Leslie Guam and Jackson Musker for making today's episode possible. And now it's time for what you've been waiting for, the announcement of our July book club pick. It is Toni Morrison month yet again, and we are reading the final novel by Toni Morrison, God Help the Child. The book explores the ways childhood suffering can shape adulthood, and we will discuss the book on Wednesday, July 30. So tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the Stacks Pack community and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and check out our website, the stackspodcast.com. Today's episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
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Ep. 376 People Be Gay with Mia McKenzie