Ep. 385 A Human Champagne Bubble with Addie E. Citchens

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

Debut novelist, Addie E. Citchens, joins us this week to discuss her book, Dominion—a Black Southern family drama told through the eyes of two women. Addie talks about how growing up in the church in Mississippi inspired her writing, and why she feels like she’s been writing this story her whole life. We also talk about humor, a writing teacher who stifled her style, and how the ending of Dominion clicked into place. 

For the month of August, the Stacks Book Club pick will be reading Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, August 27th with Alexis Madrigal returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Addie: Instagram
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Addie E. Citchens 0:00

Uh, you know, Mississippi is home of the blues, and I didn't like the blues for most of my life, until I became an adult, and I heard a young man from my high school, and he was singing a Jay Blackfoot song. And I was like, why is he singing this with such passion? They tell a story of sharecropping, but being able to go to the juke joint and dance after that, I think, to be able to be funny, to be able to be express yourself in a state that tries to silence that out of you and understanding at the same time that Mississippi is the source of their creativity. I think that's I don't know if that explains it.

Traci Thomas 0:38

Yeah, it does.

Traci Thomas 0:45

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by Addie E. Citchens. She is the debut author behind one of my most favorite novels of the year, Dominion, if you are a lover of black, Southern family dramas told with a little bit of humor and a few twists. I think you should stick around for today's conversation. Without doing any spoiling, Addie and I talk about this book, how it came to her, how long she's been working on this project, and the ways that hypocrisy, longing and masculinity tie together to tell this incredible story. The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, August 27 with Alexis Madrigal. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, if one episode a week is just not enough for you, then you're in luck. You can join the stacks pack on Patreon and subscribe to my newsletter on sub stack to get bonus content, like episodes, access to our Discord community, participate in our mega reading challenge and so much more. Head to patreon.com/thestacks and tracithomas.substack.com to join. Now it's time for my conversation with Addie E. Citchens.

Traci Thomas 2:20

Okay, everybody. I'm really, really excited about this one. Today I have started screaming about this book on the internet, basically the moment I got about 10 pages in and I get to talk to the author of so far my favorite novel of the year. I am joined today by the author of Dominion, Addie E. Citchens. Addie, welcome to Stacks!

Addie E. Citchens 2:40

Thank you so much, Traci, thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:43

I'm so I mean, I'm Thank you for saying yes to me. I was like, this woman is not going to want to talk to me because she wrote a great book, like she does not have time for me. Um, it's your debut.

Addie E. Citchens 2:54

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, my God. I've been waiting a long time for this. Like, a long time, you know?

Traci Thomas 3:01

How long?

Addie E. Citchens 3:01

Um, well, I'm 45 now, so I think I've been writing from the moment I started reading, or the time the moment, maybe even when my mom started reading to me. So I've been writing forever.

Traci Thomas 3:13

Oh my gosh. Okay, well, before we even I want to talk more about that, but before we get there, will you just tell folks, in about 30 seconds or so what Dominion is about. And I should have said this before, but I'll just say this now, no spoilers.

Addie E. Citchens 3:26

So Dominion is a novel based in Dominion, Mississippi, and it's about a small town pastor and his wife and their golden boy Son, and the story is told from the perspectives of the boy's mother and his girlfriend, diamond, and it tells you how hard we love and what we miss when we love so hard.

Traci Thomas 3:52

Gosh, this is so I want to just tell people listening this is going to be a hard interview at the beginning, because I don't want you guys to know anything else about the book. Basically, we're going to talk about some of the themes work. It's going to feel a little cagey. You're probably going to be like, Why aren't they saying other things? But just trust me, this is one of those books. The less you know going in, the better. I think. Do you? Do you? Let me ask you that, is that how you feel about the book, because there are things that happen that are not there at the beginning that you maybe don't see coming. How important is preserving that piece for your reader?

Addie E. Citchens 4:29

It's very important. Because, let me tell you, I saw a review online details so much, and nobody looked that up, but I really, yeah, I wanted to come as a surprise, you know, because I feel like it's deceptively simple, and then you kind of realize, Wow, this is what this is about, you know.

Traci Thomas 4:48

Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, it's no secret I'm we both share a mutual friendship with Kiese Layman, who is the one who put this book on my radar every time I ask him what to ead this year. He's like, Dominion, Dominion. I'm like, Okay, fine, I'm gonna read it. And I remember I text him the first day that I started the book, and was like, I really like this. Like, I think it's really good. I'm having a fun time. You know? I'm loving this. It sort of reminds me of church ladies a little bit. Like both Addie and Disha have this ability to, like, see a character and just let you see them with one or two sentences. And he was like, it's sort of like that. And I was like, okay, like, Am I an idiot? And then I read another 30 pages, and was like, Okay, I see, I see where I was wrong. But as far as like bringing twists to your audience, how are you as the writer, approaching sort of like what you tell us, what you don't tell us? Because not only are you doing that with us, but this is also a book about secrets a lot, and so your characters are doing that with each other. So how are you sort of weaving those dances together?

Addie E. Citchens 5:57

I guess it was just it took a lot of time. I think I'll say, I think I've been writing this novel since I've been doing my earliest observations in church, and so seeing what people were and who's, knowing who they were outside of the bound, you know, boundaries of the church thing. I think that influenced me. And, you know, I call myself a nosy writer, so I'm always eavesdropping. And so when you listen in as much as I do, you notice what people are saying and what they're not saying. And I think I want to you know, and I think for me, that's our lives, that's our relationships, what we express, and when we don't express, even with the closest people we know, there are certain aspects of self I believe we don't express and so, you know, I think it was trying to strike the balance of being one's real self and being one's projected self, and how we dance around that in our interactions with others every day and with people like these who have, like so much to lose, it becomes even much more important for them, the things that they have and the things that they project, you know, and yeah, distinctly separate.

Traci Thomas 7:12

When you say that you're a nosy writer, does that mean that you're a nosy person who writes, or does that mean that you're nosy about your characters? I'm a nosy person who writes, okay, well, I'm a nosy person who interviews. So that's why I interview. Do you like to gossip?

Addie E. Citchens 7:28

I'm not necessary. I like to hear gossip.

Traci Thomas 7:30

Okay, you do like to gossip. You just don't bring enough to the table for the rest of us.

Addie E. Citchens 7:38

Exacly.

Traci Thomas 7:40

You said that you've been writing this book, maybe since your mother started writing, reading to you. Did you always know you wanted to be a writer? Or were there other aspirations for you throughout your life?

Addie E. Citchens 7:52

I've always known I wanted to be a writer. There are other things I thought I wanted to do throughout life because I, um, I started school as like, a biology, physics major. Don't, don't be impressed. I was terrible. And I remember being in biology lab, and this God tells me education, that's not a doctor, because I told myself, and I said, if you know you're from a small town, you do well on standardized tests, you're a lawyer. You're going to be a lawyer, a doctor, engineer. So I thought I wanted to be a doctor, and so we were in this biology lab, and he was like, adding kitchens in a doctor's name, that's a writer's name. And I was like, you, you know, because I always known that. And so the very next year, I changed my major, and so since then, I've scribbled things down. I've not always been consistent, but once I started writing this, you know, it came when it was supposed to come, because I've had dresses this novel finished, maybe years and years ago, but, um, it wasn't right. And so I had to live life. That's something my grandmother used to say, you have to keep on living. I had to keep on living to be able to put it together in the way that it came together. And I do think this is the way it's supposed to be.

Traci Thomas 9:08

I love that. I'm so curious. So when did you start actually writing Dominion?

Addie E. Citchens 9:15

Probably like 15 years ago, actually put in pen to paper to try to write this. And so I would write a couple of pages, throw it away. So I think I had a complete draft of this, probably maybe eight years ago.

Traci Thomas 9:32

And then, but you knew it wasn't right. I knew it wasn't right. So then what do you do from there? Like, you just put it down, you go do other stuff, or do you obsess over it for years? Like, what's that?

Addie E. Citchens 9:43

Basically, I wrote other things in between, you know, and so I'm kind of like a cycle writer. So, you know, a lot of times, like, if I write a short story, sometimes it can come out in one one, maybe a week, or maybe one setting. But if. I i write a short story, and I'm still interested in the themes and the characters and the people, um, and I don't get the I don't believe it's right. I'll let it sit. And I so I just cycle around projects. And so I had come back to this one, and, you know, um, that's when the FSG fellowship came up, um, and it just came up right at the time I was cycling and swimming.

Traci Thomas 10:23

I see, so you'll put something down and go right on something else and go Right exactly. I see, sort of like a merry go round of stories.

Addie E. Citchens 10:30

And see, I'll try to write on it, as long as if I can't get an ending out of it, if I can't get a satisfactory arc out of it, I won't keep doing it. I don't want to force it to do anything.

Traci Thomas 10:41

Yeah, this book sort of moves around. The vibes change, the mood changes. It's sort of hard to figure out what's going on. It is, I don't think, I don't think people call it this, but in my reading, it felt sort of genre bending, if you will. How do you think about these types of things, these like sort of outside imposed ideas like genre or story or whatever.

Addie E. Citchens 11:07

I went to MFA program, and the first the professor I took most often for fiction writing, he wouldn't let you write a full draft. He would let you bring in two pages, and if those two pages didn't have this thing called yearning, yearning, he wouldn't let you workshop a story. So I spent so much time stultified by what he had done to me in that workshop that I wasn't, you know, once I broke out of that face because I didn't write. From the time, I didn't write anything new in my fiction workshop. So from time about about 2005 to, like 2012 ish, I didn't write basically, you know, because I just felt like, you know, because of this teacher, sort of exactly. And so once I free myself from that, and I just decided never to let anybody define what I did, and, um, you can't refine what I say. I said what I said, and I said it how I said it, you know. And there's a certain musicality from because I'm from a small town in Mississippi, there's a certain musicality of where I'm from that cannot be squeezed into technically perfect fiction, sure. So, you know, we've been, you know, we've been genres every day as black folk to me, yeah, so I think that's just reflective in what I what I was trying to do here, yeah, we're not even trying to automate it.

Traci Thomas 12:41

I think that what I'm about to say is maybe something is a half baked idea I'm having, but just listening to you talk, I sort of feel like genre is useful when something is mediocre, but when something is really good, genre quickly becomes like a barrier, or it's almost like it scrambles whoever the audience is. It scrambles your understanding of the thing. I don't know if that resonates at all with you.

Addie E. Citchens 13:08

Yes, very much. And also, I think a lot of great fiction got left behind. Not enough people read it in a serious way, because it was, you know, automatically thrown into that genre thing. So I think we miss, we miss out a lot with trying to force labels on things. You know, yeah, good art should transcend labels anyway. Yeah, totally you should. You shouldn't be able to boil it down, right?

Traci Thomas 13:34

You shouldn't exactly know what it is if it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. It's funny, though, because you said that your teacher said yearning. And one of the things I have written down about this book is longing, which I think are cousins. And I feel like this book is like steeped in longing. These two women, Priscilla and diamond, who are our main narrators. They're our main sort of guides through the world of the town of Dominion and the men that they love in this town, they both have so much longing. How do you I think longing can be trite or cute or feel extremely flat often. So I'm wondering, were you thinking about that, or does that? Did that just happen? Like, what were you trying to put on the page?

Addie E. Citchens 14:35

I think I just wrote what I observed. Observed, you know, and I observed women longing for that's all they did. That's all they did. You know, it's not like a, you know, swoon and pining longing. It's a thriving, big, huge, jaw breaking thing that directed everything they did. So. That's, that's why I think, you know, they loan so much, because that's what I've seen, that's what I know. And whether it was for love, whether it was for acceptance, whether it was for just the minimum of respect or treatment, I've always seen women long, you know, and it's kind of like, you know, I think, you know, unfair on worries, but it's also tender and beautiful. I think, yeah.

Traci Thomas 15:24

I think it is too. And I think there's so much conversation in politics and news right now about men and masculinity and male loneliness and how men are so broken. And I don't think that that's any of that's wrong. I think that is, I think we're getting to the root of the thing. But I feel like in this novel you've written directly into the center of that, and I'm curious what you make of masculinity, and maybe, like, the ways women are sort of tasked with being the keepers of masculinity, or like interested parties in it.

Addie E. Citchens 16:05

You know, I always say this statement, I always will, and the community I came from, which is a particular kind of black community, and it may extend to more, but I know they hand girls responsibility while handing boys power. I guess when you realize, like, like, almost all, you know, like, almost all you've been taught is some subtle form of a misogyny, you know, we are like Sigmund Freud wrote a whole bunch of shit about penis and nobody envies. It's an, you know, I think we've been fooled by misogyny. We've been fooled by the patriarchy. We've been fooled by supremacy. That's much as much as what masculinity is as it is, you know, white supremacy. So I think I wanted to see like, two generations of women navigate that. And how this idea of like, sometimes we get this, well, all of us had this idea first, that agreeing with this male privilege thing is what officers protection in some way. And so I think you know this is like this novel is them unlearning it. And as you'll see in the novel, you might unlearn the habits, but, you know, sometimes you go right back to it, right?

Traci Thomas 17:28

You know, say, Old habits die hard, or something.

Addie E. Citchens 17:30

Right, exactly.

Traci Thomas 17:31

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like just because you see something doesn't necessarily mean that it changes you, right, or that you have the tools to change. Like, I mean, I think that's something that is happening right now in this country. Is like, I think a lot of people can identify a problem, but not necessarily fix it. I don't know, fix feels like such a small word when we're talking about all these big things. But okay, well, I mean, let's talk about Mississippi. That's where you're from. That's where the book is set. I'm from California, and I didn't know that people in Mississippi were the greatest writers in this country. I didn't know that. I've learned that since I started doing this podcast. What does it mean to be a writer, a black writer from a state like Mississippi?

Addie E. Citchens 18:26

Um, it's resistance. You know, Mississippi is home of the blues, and I didn't like the blues for most of my life, until I became an adult, and I heard a young man from my high school saying we were at some kind of game in Mississippi State, and he was singing a jay black foot song. And I was like, why is he singing this with such passion? And then I just started listening to I'm like, this is these are songs I've heard all my life so and they're beautiful and they're terrifying, and they're sweet, and all of those things. And they they tell a story. They tell a story of, of like sharecropping, but being able to go to the juke joint and dance after that like, you know, and like my grandfather. I remember him being at on my grandmother's porch, and he was signing a contract, and he put an X on the contract because I didn't know my grandfather was illiterate, and like, he was born in like, my my grandfather and grandmother were, like, they had a lot of views. And so my grandmother, my grandfather was born in like, 1910 and so he was like, 65 when I was born. No, he was no, 70 when I was born, you know. So that's Mississippi. But also the ability to be able to to make all of those things we've seen because and still be geniuses, you know, in that way. And I mean. I'm not a grandizing myself in that way. But I think you know that I think to be able to be funny, to be able to be glittery, to be able to be express yourself in a state that tries to silence that out of you, at times, even with what we talk in religion, you know, the ways our parents did it. I think being able to do all of that, but even despite being from Mississippi, you know, and understanding at the same time that Mississippi is the source of their creativity, I don't know if that explains it.

Traci Thomas 20:37

It does, you know, yeah, it does. I mean, I just think like, clearly, Mississippi, you know, has something to say, right? I feel like, clearly, there is just such storytelling coming from, from the state. And I am for i for one am grateful for all of you, like modern black Mississippian writers who have changed, I think the course, and I'm including you in this, because I can I see the vision for your career now, I just feel like you all are doing something so special and so good, just like good writing. But it's also the setting of your book, Mississippi. Do you do think that you'll always write into Mississippi? I'm a Californian. I have had many Californians on the show, many of whom write fiction about California, and they're like, I'll never write about anywhere else. There's nowhere else I need to write about because there's so much here. So do you feel that way about Mississippi? Or do you think you want to go outside?

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

Oh, you know my, you know, I think mostly the South. Of course, you know, not necessarily just Mississippi, because, you know, I think you know the stories, like the novel that I have coming out next, it will be about it takes place in in Memphis, because Memphis was a big part of my childhood as well. So I think, yeah, mostly the South, but not always just Mississippi. And, you know, I've been living in, I've lived, I've lived in Louisiana and New Orleans, you know, for like, 15 years, and so you can't, not right around New Orleans. So I think, you know, mostly from the way, from the places I've lived the longest, yeah, I think my but it's all a similar thing. That's why I think I'm in New Orleans, because it's so similar to car sale, you know, especially, you know, with the music, you know, that kind of thing. It's just a feeling, you know?

Traci Thomas 20:37

Yeah, I feel like, you know, this is sort of hard, maybe hard to articulate, but I feel like we understand that, like boundaries and like states and all of that is just all arbitrary stuff. And like certain things are cultural to the state or whatever regional but that especially when it comes to black folks and, like, the nature of the slave trade and all of that, like, it's hard to sort of delineate place, right? Like, my people are from Louisiana and so, and I'm from California, as you know, with the great migration, like so many, everyone I knew in California, basically their family was from Louisiana. And so there are these things that are like, that. We're connected through place, even if we're far from the place.

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

Exactly. And you know, like, I always feel like California writers are lucky, because you do have everything there, and it can be so metropolitan and crisp, you know?

Traci Thomas 20:37

I'm bored by California thing, I think because, you know, I'm from here, but I feel like, I don't know, I yeah, I think, I guess it's probably like the grass is always greener, kind of thing, right?

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

Oh, you definitely would not want to be anywhere, you know, anywhere in Mississippi, especially for America, you know. But I know I do have certain ideas about black folk in the south, you know.

Traci Thomas 20:37

Yeah, wait, let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. And I want to ask you a little bit about the structure of the book. We've talked about how there's these two alternating narrators. There's also this other third piece, which we won't talk about, that comes up throughout the book. How did you decide to do alternating Why did you decide to do that? Are there versions of the book where it's one or the other or someone else, all knowing, like, how do you kind of figure out who's talking to who, and how.

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

it's always been these alternating narrators, and at some point they're, you know, you got significant portions from both saber and both saber and Wonder Boy.

Traci Thomas 20:37

Another preacher, husband, and then the boyfriend, son.

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

Yes, exactly. And so I didn't think that was necessary. I think I said this before. You know, CIS hetero males are the ape expresses. And so it's like asking the. Wolf to explain the hunt. He just gonna eat you. He just wants to eat you. So I didn't think necessarily, like it was something that had to be done. So I'm glad I kept it like this. And I think the structure I wanted to be representative of the community, like a communal voice. And so how you know how it's kind of like how we all fit in together. I kind of wanted to be, you know, just like that.

Traci Thomas 20:37

Yeah, I love, I mean, I love the mix. I also think the book is like, sort of funny. It's like, I don't it is funny. Like, there were moments where I was laughing out loud, or, like, it's almost has, like, some satire elements to it, especially early on, which I really appreciated, because it brought I felt like it brought me in in an unexpected way that I really like that was sort of delightful and also something to hold on to as things changed throughout the book. How much were you were you thinking about humor, or are you just sort of a funny person? You know, I've been told I'm funny.

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

I've been told I'm a human champagne bubble. So I think, you know, it's just like that black folk thing you know that you know, even in the midst of the worst circumstances, somebody's gonna crack a joke and you don't want to laugh, but you kind of gotta laugh, and sometimes it's like you laugh to keep from crying or screaming. So it's that kind of thing, you know. And you know, everybody you know, almost my whole family, is kind of funny. So I don't know if I could have written it without it being funny, because the shit is not funny. The story is not funny at all. There are moments, and I think that's just like life.

Traci Thomas 20:37

You know, I'm obsessed with a human champagne bubble. Who called you that?

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

Me.

Traci Thomas 20:37

You call yourself that?

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

No, but I haven't been told I have a sparkling personality.

Traci Thomas 20:37

I can see it. I get it. I'm into it. I'm bought in. I want the champagne. How about naming your characters? How do you name them?

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

Um, it's just like, sometimes I just put a name down. And so the way I write is that I kind of read everything over and over again until I won't change anything in a section, okay, you know? And so as I go over the novel, I'll stick some names. Priscilla's name is always Priscilla, okay, and so her name came from my childhood Preacher's Wife name, but she her name is in Priscilla, but her name is similar to Priscilla, okay. And so I use that, you know, because I always love her. She's a sweetheart. I think diamond had another name before, but then once I changed it. It just stuck. It's kind of like, you know.

Traci Thomas 20:37

it's a perfect name. It's a perfect name for her.

Addie E. Citchens 20:37

And think, you know, in the like, you know, you said the satire part, I think, you know, with Wonder Boy, of course, you know, um, but there's a Mississippi tradition where there would be boy wonders, and they were normally, um, young boys who profess that they were called to, uh, the pool here early or, you know, boys who would, um, play instruments Well, you know. And so he technically is a boy wonder. So I just, you know.

Traci Thomas 20:37

Right? Because he's is all of those things and so much more that wonder. Boy. What a cutie. What about the title and the cover? How involved were you in the cover? How soon did you know this was a title? Was this always a title? Was this something that happened later?

Traci Thomas 20:37

So no, this wasn't the original title. Was, I had been having a working title. I think it was in the image of the beast. And we kind of, like, you know, they asked me, my editor asked me, how, how married are you to this title? And I'm like, not at all, you know. And so we kind of, I think, I think I was in Mexico, and we had, like, we were on a zoom, and we were just talking it through, and, um, I think my editor came up with it. And she was like, Dominion, what do you think about that? And I was like, whoa. Because, you know, it kind of I wanted to be, like, self fulfilling prophecy, not because I wrote this novel, because I think it bears a lot of thoughts, and you know, it might change somebody's minds, you know. So I really, um, loved it when she suggested it. So that's how it just kind of stuck after that. And I was like, I can work with this, um, as for the cover that was another uh, design that I really, really loved. But, you know, we can get some clearances. I think the author didn't want it altered. I'm a black I give TMI all the time, so I hope she didn't want to alter it. But I loved it so much because it was symbolic, and it kind of looked like for. Opium tubes to me. And so, you know. But anyway, so the graphic designer and FSG came up with the design, and so I altered, like, you know, the steak was thinner. I helped with altering it, and then they had different colors. And I'm like, I know these colors, these colors are what I had all in mind, the green and the yellow, right? And so, no, the green and the gold, they added the red. Okay. So I was like, Yeah, because I think it was, they sent me some copies of it being black. And I was like, and I saw the swatches of the sofa in my house is like, this green right here. And I really love how the color look. I really love how the green and the gold look together.

Traci Thomas 21:06

I love, I love the cover. Yeah, I love the cover. I think it looks so good. And I like the red too. I love the red after the E in your name. It's just sort of like, it's like a little tiny detail that I just really like, I don't know why.

Addie E. Citchens 21:06

I like that too, and I'm like, I wouldn't even, I didn't even, I would have thought maybe white, something that's like, you know, but then I saw the red, and I just fell in love with it, you know. And I read that, I consider it like, look, you know?

Addie E. Citchens 21:06

Yeah, it's just like, kind of like, sit, like, sinister, just, I don't know. I just like it. I just, I mean, I think this is no secret. I think FSG has some of the best covers in literature right now. Like, I think it's Rodrigo crawl. Is that his name? Who's, like, the head over there? I think, I don't know. Anyways, whoever's in charge over there, they're doing great stuff. And I am a firm believer in covers matter, so I appreciate their work. Um, what was the hardest part about writing this book?

Addie E. Citchens 21:06

Getting it the ending, so, um, because, you know, like I said, it's been I had a draft a while ago, and I think I shopped it around once. And, um, the ending wasn't right. And so...

Traci Thomas 21:06

Did you know the ending wasn't right when you started shopping it around?

Addie E. Citchens 21:06

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. But when I just didn't know what to do, and I had to, like I said, I had to keep on living life. And so I wrote this, um, I self published this little um pamphlet or this little book, and I would get up and get it, but I don't have any pants on the game. Owes you, and it's um, a black girl's got to um dating in this Patriarchal age, right? And so I had a bunch of them over my social media and stuff, and I realized had to write that little self help book to be able to get the to the ending for this novel. And so I had written around the same time I had gotten the fellowship. And so between writing that and reading my own words in that then Jenna Johnson asked me, Is this novel saying what you wanted to say? And perhaps, when I wrote it in my mid my early 30s, perhaps it did say what I thought I wanted to say. But at this point in my life, after the evolution of me, and after I had written that little pamphlet, pamphlet, I realized, no, absolutely not. And that's all it took. Was that one question, and I'm eternally grateful for that.

Traci Thomas 21:06

Yeah? I mean, Jenna Johnson, also, fantastic, yeah. I mean, you have sort of this dream team, right? It's like, you have PJ mark as your agent, who I'm obsessed with, who is, like, I don't know, doing the putting, like, getting the best things into our hands, like I have, I just feel like, I'm like, oh, PJ, Mark is the agent on this? Like, if not for him, I don't know, 30 of my last, most favorite books of the last 10 years never exist, right? Like he's just doing he just, I don't know, a genius. Jenna Johnson at FSG, a genius the cover like you. It's just like this dream. And I didn't obviously know any of these things about the book before I'd seen the cover. But aside from that, I didn't know any of these things. And of course, as I'm like, reading your acknowledgements, I'm like, of course, of course, this makes so much sense that all the great people would be flocking to this great book because it's, you know, great. But I do. I love this idea that Jenna was just like, is this what you wanted to say? And you were like, Nope, not at all. Did the ending come to you quickly from that, like, Did you immediately know what to do?

Addie E. Citchens 25:23

Very quickly. I was on the deadline anyway, and I'm not usually good at writing on the deadline, you know, I don't do things in deadlines. But when she asked that question, I was like, oh, man, you are absolutely right. Let me get this done. And it just kind of kind of just came out from there.

Traci Thomas 25:23

Okay, I got some questions for you about process. What. Is first and foremost. How do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often do you listen to music? Do you do it in your home? Do you do it out in the world? Are there snacks and beverages, rituals, the whole thing?

Addie E. Citchens 25:23

I'm normally a writer in my home. So like I said, I've always wrote work, sort of odd jobs. And so I had a writing schedule. Well, I would write in the morning, um, then I would do some kind of exercise, and then I would write in the afternoon. And if I was like writing on the first stage of this novel, I might write a third time just around whatever job I was doing. Also it depends like and when I'm actively writing, there is a song I have associated to whatever I'm working on in the moment. And so what that does is kind of click my mind right into what I'm trying to do. I get my coffee, I get my joint. Oh, can I say that? Yeah.

Traci Thomas 25:23

Yeah, I'm in California, so you're safe here.

Addie E. Citchens 21:06

I don't know. Can you say that where you are? I don't know. Yeah, I mean New Orleans, so, you know, it comes down. So yeah, I get my joint, I get my coffee, and then I turn the music on. Now, when I'm kind of like it like when I get to a standstill in an in the story, what I'll do is listen to the story, and I will listen to it as much as it takes to not edit anything in that section. I might make small edits after the fact, but no big edits in the session, then I'll be able to move on. And so during that phase, you know, I just do that silently, because I'm just listening and and trying to make sure it's all because I'm I'm very nitpicky. I'm like, period, semicolon, like, I'm that kind of writer, even though, you know, just because of a very particular cadence, I like, you know, um, to hear, and I feel like that cadence, kind of, like, propels you to the end of the story quicker, you know. I like to write so that, you know, you read it quick and you come back, you know. So, I like, I'm like, maybe you can get this done in one sitting, just because, just like the cadence, I very much work with sentence structure a lot. And so, yeah, I'm a routine writer. I write maybe, like, eight o'clock, and then I'll write again at two. Like I said, if I'm doing something longer, I'll write again at eight. Um, if I'm doing a short story, I'll do two times a day, I'll do it. You know?

Traci Thomas 28:39

What, can you tell us what the song was for this book?

Addie E. Citchens 28:39

This song was, there are two different songs for this one. There was, like, the song that's used at the beginning of the story. Each of, like, those church programs. There's a song called, I'm just a nobody trying to tell you know, that's a song by The Williamson brothers. And also, there is a song, and it's called, there is this. It's sung by the Patterson airs. And it's the seven, um, the seven seals song. Who wrote the book of the seven seals in the story he reads. That's how he starts his sermon. Oh my gosh, he started. So if you go listen to the song, it's so jaunty. I love it. And I just listen to it, and then I and then I'll get started, you know, Okay, listen to it a couple of times actually, you know? Yeah, you have to listen to the song. It's so nothing duh duh duh duh.

Traci Thomas 28:40

I'm gonna link to it in the show notes so people can go find it and listen to it. You've mentioned having lots of odd jobs. What are some of the oddest jobs?

Addie E. Citchens 38:32

So one of them, I used to work as an extra because they fit. They film a lot of stuff in New Orleans. Yeah. And I would go, you know, those are the days I couldn't get my writing schedule out. But I usually do it, like three days when they're doing doing something. Or one time I was like, um, a farm teacher, yeah, it was a big farm at City Park, and you teach the kids about the native species and stuff. Um, yeah. Anyway, it rained really hard one day, and I never went back. Thanks. Thank you. I worked a lot with, like, you know, kids. I worked as a tutor that was like three, three hours a day. They paid well per hour, and I had, like, a studio apartment that was like $600 in so it was just enough to get by. Then I worked in for a long time at the city's Broadway theater as a house manager. It was like the funnest job ever. You got to see all the shows, and then you only work like from five to like 11, right? You know that works for me. You know it works for my schedule. So.

Traci Thomas 39:40

Yeah, I love this. I love this. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Addie E. Citchens 39:48

Curriculum, that one always kind of, oh, also unnecessary. I always get that wrong.

Traci Thomas 39:57

Can you do necessary? Or both?

Addie E. Citchens 40:01

For shows, it unnecessary. It's like, is it 2c and two s's? Like, is it U N, E, C, E, S, S, A, R, I don't know.

Traci Thomas 40:07

I'm a terrible speller. That's why I asked this question. When I started doing this podcast, I didn't used to ask that question. And then one day, I was like, I'm just so curious. Like, what are all these smart, genius people who come on my podcast? Like, I wonder what they can't spell. And then I started loving the answer so much that I just never stopped asking it, but also made me feel good about myself, because I'm such a bad speller. And then someone who's like, won a Pulitzer prize will be like, I can't spell tomorrow. And I'm like, I can spell tomorrow. I could win a Pulitzer Prize one day.

Addie E. Citchens 40:38

Can you write?

Traci Thomas 40:40

No, ah, I believe. I mean, I write on the internet. I have to write things on the internet, but I am not a writer. I do not call myself writer. I hate writing. It is by far the worst part of my job. If I could do this, just talking and asking questions and interviewing people, I would gladly, gladly do that. I just like books, but I don't ever want to write one. Hopefully, um, the book isn't out yet, so I can't ask you. Well, I could. I can't ask you this question because you don't know, but I'm wondering for you, like, what will success look like or feel like for you as you enter this sort of major life bucket list moment.

Addie E. Citchens 41:26

I know, first of all, like, you know, okay, so you know however long in advance, and you know the presidential elections and stuff. And I'm like, I've been thinking it was like the end of the world, maybe the world again before, but you know, it just feels like, so it's been kind of like, you know, like this balance of understanding what's going on and feeling for everything that's going on while trying to, you know, get excited for your own project. So, you know, it's kind of been like, late just getting excited about it. But success, for me looks like conversation like, like a lot of people are talking about the things you know, and what that means and and what might change, uh, what you know, what ideas people have that might change as a result of it, you know. And, of course, selling a million copies, that'll be.

Traci Thomas 42:21

We're gonna do that if anything to say about it, we're gonna sell online copies of this one. I mean, I have to say, as soon as I finished the book, the only person I knew who had read it was Kisa, and I just text him, and I was like, I am dying for this book to be out so that I can talk to people about it. I've been pressuring people who I know have access to early books. I'm like, Can you can you, can you please go read this now so we could talk about it? Like, I really didn't talk about somebody, could somebody read this? So I think, I certainly think it's gonna inspire a lot of conversation. And I'm really looking forward to that. Like, as we're recording it, we still have, like, 10 days or something before the book, like nine days, I don't know, yeah, like that, before the book comes out, eight days, who's counting? Not you, who cares? Eight days, whatever. But I'm just like, I can't wait. So I imagine, you know, you're probably feeling like that too, like.

Addie E. Citchens 43:12

I know, I was telling my partner. I was like, Oh, am I gonna make it to Tuesday? Next Tuesday? Am I gonna make it?

Traci Thomas 43:20

Do you have a plan of how you're gonna celebrate the day or, like, Do you have any idea what that what that day will look like for you?

Addie E. Citchens 43:26

I'm gonna drop it like it's hot, I'm done champagne and up. Oh no, you know, I've been practicing silence lately, just because, you know, like, um, since the book has been coming out and all this advanced stuff, I've been having to talk more like I most of the time have my days to myself, you know. And so the conversations that I have with people are, you know, very much curated. And, you know, you can call but you're not, probably gonna get no answer, so that kind of thing. So I've been, like, enjoying my last, like, times where I can really be silent, and I've been practicing that because, if not, you know, my mind erase, but all the things that could be or could not be, or you know. So I'm practicing, you know, being calm, and hopefully it'll help what you know, whatever it looks like, you know, the detachment thing, you know?

Traci Thomas 44:26

Yeah, totally. For people who do go out and read this book, who love this book, what are some other books you might recommend that are in conversation with Dominion?

Addie E. Citchens 44:35

Um, you know, honestly, um, like, I haven't read that many books that kind of like, you know, because I always think of like, maybe like, Sula, maybe like, I guess, dusting off your old color, purple, also, um, you know, I like, like, I think, for like, setting the scene. And this, this head. Heaviness is actually heavy. You know that that, you know PSAs memoir, you know very much in it's just like you get Mississippi, yeah, and so in that connection, like this really is this place, because you know?

Traci Thomas 45:17

You don't, this is okay. This is only first and first, I'm gonna say a book that I didn't like, but is in conversation only because I read these books back to back. And there's, like, some crossover similarities. It's not a book you're ever gonna think of, but your book and demon Copperhead have a lot of similarities.

Addie E. Citchens 45:38

I have not read them. Should I?

Traci Thomas 45:39

No, but like so in the book, the main character, he's never been to the ocean. And there's characters in your book where it comes up that they've never been to the ocean. And I was like, What are the chances? It's set in a rural community or, like, in a small town that you know sort of is like overlooked or not written about a lot? It's just like there were all these little connections. However, demon copper had his 600 pages and made me want to pull my eyes out. And this book was a delightful read that I read in about 20 minutes because I loved it so much. Not true, but I devoured it. But as I was reading your book, I was like, What are the chances that these like little connections would be made between these two totally different books? So that was a sort of fun moment for me.

Addie E. Citchens 46:22

I have a thing, you know, it has to be really, really good for me to read 600 heights.

Traci Thomas 46:27

Honestly, it has to be so good, or it has to be like a necessary history, you know what I mean? Like, if you're writing like a history book, 600 pages to tell me the story of this war. But if you're just telling me about a kid in Appalachia, I'll kill you. I like, I the the rage I have for demon Copperhead currently is just, it's off the charts.

Addie E. Citchens 46:53

But, you know, like the Mississippi Delta and Appalachia, they normally keep each other off the bottom, you know, or whatever, is bad.

Traci Thomas 47:02

It's like a--,

Addie E. Citchens 47:03

Exactly well, you know, the the deep south in general, yeah, for sure.

Traci Thomas 47:08

I mean, that's why I was sort of like, there's these, there are these similarities between these two stories. They're told totally differently. The plots are totally different. But there is this sort of sense of place. I mean, that's the one thing that demon copra does well, but you also do is like there is a strong sense of place. You feel the place it is part it is a character damn near in the book, um, I just have one more question for you. If you could have anyone Dead or Alive read Dominion, who would you want it to be?

Addie E. Citchens 47:37

Oh, goodness. Um, it might have to be Toni Morrison because of that thing of writing, you know, writing the book you wanted to read, you know, so and then she was just my idol. I was like, you know, you know, that was like my literary grandmother. And I always say, you know, because, um, if my grandmother, because my grandmother also was under educated. She she left school at third grade and so, but she had a very, very she was very sharp with it. She was very intelligent. She was very practical. She could, you know, she was also very a body genius. She was chopping wood when she was 78 and 79 you know, she could swing an ax. And nobody in my family could swing an ax and chop along. Nobody, not right now. So I think, you know, my grandmother, I would love her. I think she would be delighted at it, you know?

Traci Thomas 48:34

Yeah, I love that so much. Okay, everybody listening to my voice right now, if you can hear my voice, clap once. If you can hear my voice, go out and buy dominion for multiple reasons. One, I think you're gonna love it. Two, I would really like to talk about it. And three, Addie said that she has to sell a million copies to feel successful, and we want her to feel successful, right? So let's like, let's help people check off on goals. It's community care. We can what we can do to help each other. But in all seriousness, I love this novel so much. I'm so happy that I got to read it. I am so happy that I got to talk to you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Addie E. Citchens 49:14

Thank you so much for having me. You are the best. You're like a champagne bubble too.

Traci Thomas 49:18

Thank you. I was hoping you'd say that, and everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks.

Traci Thomas 49:32

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Addy E Citchens for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Brian Gittis and Shirley Don for helping to make this episode possible. As a reminder, our book club pick for August is Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, which we will be discussing on Wednesday, August 27 with Alexis Madrigal. If you love the Stacks and you want bonus episodes and inside access, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join. Join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
Next

Ep. 384 Black Genius Is Not an Outlier with Tre Johnson