Ep. 386 Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer — The Stacks Book Club (Alexis Madrigal)

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

It's The Stacks Book Club Day, and we're talking about the plant world and nature with this month’s pick, Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer. The wonderful journalist and author Alexis Madrigal is back for this conversation on this modern nonfiction classic. We discuss the influence this book has had on writers and readers alike, as well as the essays that stuck with us most. We also dig into Kimmerer's relationship with city people and how she pushes the boundaries of what is possible.

There are no spoilers in this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our September book club pick will be.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Alexis Madrigal 0:00

Just this very weekend, I was kind of tending, weeding and all these things. And one of the things that I love is that plants will do this thing where, if they're in a crappy place, they'll grow just like how they would normally grow, but like miniature so like, you get, like a little California Poppy, it just grows, like two inches and threads out a tiny little flower, you know. And I actually sometimes find those to be the most beautiful, you know, because you're like, man, that little guy survived in this way to flower. And I think for city people, that's like, one of the best, like plant teachings, you know, is like, you might not have everything you need to flower in the you know, but like, you have enough to be yourself and to like pass on to the next set of people who are going to be carrying things forward.

Traci Thomas 0:53

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is the last Wednesday of the month, which means it's the stacks book club day, and I am joined again today by the wonderful Alexis madrigal, journalist and author of the Pacific Circuit. He and I are going to be discussing Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants. By Robin Wall Kimmerer. Today we talk about how and why this book is so beloved. We talk about the importance of gratitude and reciprocity, as well as what this book has to say about city people. There are no spoilers on today's episode. Don't forget to stick around to the end of today's episode to find out what our September book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, I've got bonus episodes of incredible reading community, reading challenges, guides, hot takes, all sorts of stuff for you both on my patreon@patreon.com slash the stacks, and as part of my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, and just so you know, by joining both or either of those spaces, you make it possible for me and my team to make the show every single week. So if you love independent media, if you want to support my work, head to patreon.com/the stacks and check out my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com, all right, now it's time for my conversation with Alexis Madrigal.

Traci Thomas 2:21

All right, everybody, it is the stacks book club day. We are joined again by the wonderful crowd favorite, Alexis Madrigal, author of the Pacific Circuit. Alexis, welcome back. Yes, so good to be back. So happy to have you. We are talking today about the modern classic, modern non fiction, classic, braiding, sweet grass, indigenous wisdom, scientific knowledge and the teaching of plants by Robin wall Kimmerer. Before we even get into our thoughts, I'm going to remember now to tell you people what the book is about, and also there are no spoilers today, because these are just essays. So if you haven't read the book, that's totally fine, but the book is Robin wall Kimmerer is an indigenous woman and also a botanist. She's an academic, and she has written these essays that sort of weave, or maybe perhaps braid together the I see what you did. You see what I got. Professional I'm a professional person here. These ideas of indigeneity, these ideas of plant wisdom, these ideas of community gratitude and kind of uses different plants and nature elements to talk about what she sees as what we should be doing in our relationship to nature. It's sort of a manifesto, I would say.

Alexis Madrigal 3:46

Oh man, I is it even a book? I mean, I didn't think about that, you know, like this is it's like a worldview in a box. It's a guide to indigenous thought and what we call North America. It's a new language for life and living things. It's a parenting guide. It's an anti capitalist manifesto. It's a memoir. It's, yeah, a pan to the forests of the eastern seaboard. I mean, this book is, it's so many things. And the thought that I kept having was, you know, everybody knows this book, maybe not everybody, but this is one of the most popular books that's been written the last 15 years, certainly in the kind of naturey realm. So a lot of people I know know this book, and I hadn't read it. I felt bad about it, and part of the reason I hadn't read it was I kind of felt like, well, I know what the Beatles sound like, right? Like, do I need to listen to the Beatles like the Beatles are in every music now, you know? But then, and I would say, even like the Beatles, like you hear like, don't let me down, or some amazing Beatles song, you think, like, Damn, that person is really good at this. And that's how I felt about this book. I thought like, even though so many of her ideas and even the language that she uses to describe things have kind of made their way into. Culture, certainly in the East Bay and the Bay Area, but the actual prose, the way she did it, the storytelling, the specifics and the precise control she has over all this botanical detail, like it's just really good, you know,

Traci Thomas 5:16

Yeah, okay, okay, so I'm gonna give my initial thoughts, and I have slightly unpopular opinions about this book. I think, okay, so I also had never read it. I similar to you was like, I think I'm gonna like, I know the gist like, I think I know where she's gonna go. I was wrong about that. I was extremely impressed with her writing, with the way that she did the thing that, like every essayist, memoirist tries to do, which is, like, here's this berry, and then, like, here's the story, and now here's what it means to me, she did it better than basically everyone who's done it. So like, I'm like, the writing and, like you said, the command of the actual science, all of that total Wow. This book is too long. These essays run together. They run it is a disservice to the work she's done, because there are so many essays in this book that I can't even remember. And I finished the book last night, like I've only been reading it for the last and I'm like, there are some essays that I probably will never forget that I thought were just brilliant beyond measure. And then there's some essays where I'm like, I don't know. There was, like, the umbilical cord. One that I'm like, I don't know. I already, I've already forgotten what she was even talking about. So I feel like she needed an editor to be like, Robin, you're not wrong, but they can't handle it. It's too much, like, it's just too much. Robin, it doesn't need to be 400 pages. She could have done half the essays, half the book, and had the exact same impact. Because by the time we get to the end, for me, I was just like, yes, gratitude, reciprocity, got to

Alexis Madrigal 6:57

Yeah.

Alexis Madrigal 6:57

Humans are the only ones who have--

Alexis Madrigal 7:00

Get the end.

Traci Thomas 7:00

Yeah, yes. I'm just like, I gotta get there. But I'm just like, we get it. Humans are the only animals that have reciproc or have gratitude. We gotta show gratitude. We gotta treat each other well. So like, to me, it was just like, almost too much less would have been more for me in this one, which is not to say that I don't think that she is a fantastic writer, and that, like each individual essay is beautiful and strong on its own. But as a book, I was just, I was done a long time ago.

Alexis Madrigal 7:30

I mean, that's why I was like, Is this a book? I mean, to me, that is a really, it's a really interesting thing. Like, well, sometimes books work, I think, because they're perfectly self contained, and they just are exactly what they should be, Lost and Found by Katherine Schultz, it's just like this little slim volume, and it's like everything you ever wanted it to be. And then you finish and you're like, Okay, this I think some other books work in a different way, by leaving all of these kind of connection points, all these little ports to like everything else. And I think one reason why this book has been so successful and has been cited so many 1000s of times by everyone is like, if you're working on anything related to the land, the environment, plants, industrial waste, environmental just like, there is a connection point for you into this. And she probably said something really good about it. It's like the book that launches a million epigraphs. It's like, pick a book, you could have a wonderful Robin wall Kimmerer quote at the beginning. I agree with that.

Traci Thomas 8:39

I think that's right. Like, I definitely think that any essay you read you, there's something for you. But as a book, I was just like, like, it starts to lose it.

Alexis Madrigal 8:52

I totally agree with you on this, actually.

Traci Thomas 8:56

Like, by the time I got to part four, I was just like, I gotta go, you know, like I got it. I like, I can't believe I still have, like, 150 pages. Like, I feel like I have done what I was asked to do. I've read the book, and yet still she's asking me to keep reading the book that I already read because I read the other essays.

Alexis Madrigal 9:17

It's almost like you didn't even finish the power broker, you know?

Traci Thomas 9:23

Exactly. I do want to talk though a little bit, since you brought it up already, why do you think this book has become what it has become? Why is it so beloved, not just by authors and writers of nature, but everyday, regular people, like, when I posted it, so many people were like, this book changed my life, and that's it. That's why, yes, yeah, that's right. There was just like, these nuggets that led--

Alexis Madrigal 9:51

It's a life changing book. I honestly do. I think another way to think about it is like, you wouldn't take the Bible and read it, like, front to back, right? I mean, this is like the gospel. Wouldn't read the Bible period, right? Not, no, I know, I know. But you know what? I mean, like, but like people, people don't read the Bible front to back in this way, right? But this is like a see, it really is like gospels. There's like the parable of the pond, you know, there's this, like, parable of the lilies, like so many of these stories have an actual texture to them, or they're like, meant to be returned to they're meant to be turned over. They're meant to be a story that, like, lives with you. And I think she's very successful at that to your point you could never metabolize all of the stories. Yeah, right. And maybe that's okay, like me, I feel like this is, this might be also a book. Some some books I think succeed, because you could pick up any page, read it and be like, Oh, that's gonna stick with me, you know? And, yeah, maybe that's nice for people.

Traci Thomas 10:11

Like, I think that's right, yeah, yeah. I think that's right. I think, I think the Bible analogy is actually quite good. I'm generally a person who is like, so anti reading a book out of order. Like, I actually talked about this on an episode this month on the show. I really dislike it. However, I do think when you have a essay collection that is truly an essay collection, and not a memoir, and essays which this is not, though there are memoir elements, you should be able to pick up any essay and read it and feel like it is its own thing that is great for you a person reading it as a standalone essay. And I do think that is true with these essays. Certainly like you could pick up any essay and get something out of it, some of them, I think, are like I said before, just like Outstanding, outstanding essays, like the strawberry essay early and the pecan tree essay, one of the early stuff is so good. But I also think part of the reason I think probably like I should that I should probably like reread some of the later essays, like on a fresh brain, because I think I loved the early essays so much because it was I was on a fresh brain.

Alexis Madrigal 12:08

But also she is when she's writing about the things that she loves, which she's doing in the early chapters, everything feels so warm and the scented bath of words and it feels so nice, you know, when she's writing about the things that that disturb her or that have gone wrong in this world, she's no less powerful. But it's not the vibe that I don't want to exist in that vibe in the same way when she's talking about all the pollution of the lake near Syracuse, like, at that point, I'm just kind of like reading, like I know that story at some level, and she's doing an amazing job telling it, but I'm also sort of like, yes, industrial civilization destroyed this sacred site with no care for anyone. I don't actually want that described at such length, but I know why.

Traci Thomas 12:54

And I think, and I want to come back to talk about cities later, that is something I really want to talk about. But I do also think that part of what didn't work for me about the book is that she approaches all of these things almost with the same tone and style. And I feel like I could have, I would have liked a little bit of, like a feistier Robin wall Kimmerer talking about this, and, like, a little more pointed, right? Like they it was almost like she was talking about these things in the same way she talked about strawberries. So I was sort of like, this all feels like the same information, but I think if it had a slightly different tone or shape to it, that maybe those essays would have landed like, I mean, the one about the pollution, about Honeywell that had another name before. I did really like that one. And like, there's one about, like, the, what, how did she say when Dingo Wadi go right? Yeah, I loved that. I loved the first one, the wedigo Footprints one. Like, there are some of those that I really loved, but the earlier essays to your point, yes. Like, the way that she talks about the things that are, like, tied to her own nostalgia, and like, the like, the things that she does, love and family lore and all of that were just so good.

Alexis Madrigal 14:06

Yeah, also in the early chapters, one thing she does really beautifully, I was thinking, is almost like a stand up comic, like she'll start out something being about pecans, you know, but then you realize, oh, actually, this pecan stand had this role in sort of like Native American history. Each time you think you've gotten like, okay, that's what the that's what the meaning of pecan was in this essay. Then, you know, four pages later there's actually another meaning of pecan, and then four pages later there's like another meaning of pecan. And so you end up getting this incredible layering of meanings over these like individual botanical objects or specimens or people, as she would put it. And I found that so satisfying as a reader, like every time I got to noon one of those, I was like, oh, Robin, you know, you're so good to me, Robin, yeah, that's just what I wanted. I didn't even know it. You know?

Traci Thomas 14:58

Totally the one, the one that's. Out in my mind about that was the Astors and golden goldenrod. One that one, to me, does that as the best of all of them, where it's like she keeps adding these layers and like taking us deeper and deeper into these colors and into her own journey into academia. I thought that one was really special. I mean, I do think, like, as I'm just looking at the contents list, the entire planting, sweet grass section, like I basically wouldn't cut a single one because there's also the essay about the language and, like, animacy, yeah, I just was that your favorite?

Alexis Madrigal 15:36

I might have been. I mean, it's, it's, you know, to your point about this, it's the or my point about it might have been my point. This was the thing where I felt sucked into my own sets of interests, because I had read about, you know, I had read other people quoting her on this, and I always kind of felt like I liked it, but I was also a little bit like, I'm going to be like, brother tree, you know, like I feel like, at times I would, but her description of it was quite convincing for me, and I found myself returning to that idea over and over. We have to go right now, but at some point.

Traci Thomas 16:08

No, I do.

Alexis Madrigal 16:09

Let's talk about now.

Traci Thomas 16:10

Oh yeah, go ahead.

Alexis Madrigal 16:12

So you know the part that really caught me on this--

Traci Thomas 16:16

This, wait. This is the, this is the grammar of animacy, the grammar of animacy, yeah, which is about the language that her tribe spoke. There's there at the time of the writing, there were like nine people left who spoke it fluently, polo to be yes, yeah. And she starts to take classes, and sort of is doing it as, like, I'm doing my due diligence. Like, this is what you do. You know I got a Duolingo style? Yeah, exactly. Very Duolingo. She's like, Hello tree, like, you know, whatever, very basic stuff. And it is hard for her. The struggle is that the way that the language is set up, a lot of verbs. We're talking 70% verbs, 30% nouns, whereas in American English, or English in general, we're talking 70% nouns, 30% verbs. And you know, there's nouns for like, I gotta find what she says.

Alexis Madrigal 17:11

The best one, I remember, it was papooi, which translates as the force which causes mushrooms to push up from the earth overnight. That's right, I love that. I love that because it did. Like, sometimes I don't always believe that, like, words like make the world, but something like that suddenly makes you be like, Wait, what is that force? You know, like I am thinking now there should be a word for, like, what makes a flower open? You know, the force that makes the flower open, or that, like, causes an apple to fall from a tree. You know, all these actions and active things that are happening in our more than human world, like, maybe there should be names for all those things, in part, because then we would know to look for them and think about them, and I don't know, like that, like that. Retuning of things was just really beautiful. I thought, in a way that I because I had heard about it, I didn't think it was going to have a big impact on me but then it did.

Traci Thomas 18:15

Wait. I want you to say more about why you do or don't think word words make the world.

Alexis Madrigal 18:20

Well, I sometimes think, you know, people are like, Well, if we call people who are homeless unhoused people, then that does something. And maybe it does. Maybe it does in some long arc kind of way. But you know, maybe we should build more shelter, breads and affordable homes. Maybe that's actually more important than the renaming of things, you know? And I, that was kind of my one, you know, she spent some time on this, and like, thinking, like in that chapter, like talking about, we should know the real names for stuff and things like that. And I don't, I don't, I just don't always feel like that's what's the problem, you know, yeah, I feel like it's more of a symptom than a cause.

Traci Thomas 19:02

I'm with you because I do struggle. Like, one of my things that I think is just like such a waste of time and energy, is that Realtors now call it the primary bedroom instead of the master bedroom. I'm just like, I don't know, sure, sure. I hear you sure, as a descendant of American chattel slavery, like, it's never crossed my mind that being said, I do think kind of to her point, or, like, kind of to this bigger point of language is like, if the language, language that we use in the first place, is deliberate, then we don't have to, like, if we build a Word world with language that we want to be using, then perhaps we act in response to that, right? So like, like, if Master Bedroom obviously, is just one thing in our world. So it feels very small, but in a world in which, you know, Master meant something different or like that we'd created, you know, or even. Even in the world that we live in, but that we've created language that has, like, holistically dealt with chattel slavery, then, yes, like, that language could be a tool to make the world better, but this, like, sort of half assed version of it? Not just that--

Alexis Madrigal 20:13

Right, it's like, yeah, like, hierarchy created the idea of the master bedroom, but not calling it the master bedroom doesn't necessarily get rid of hierarchy.

Traci Thomas 20:15

It doesn't get away, away with rid of, like, racism, or all the horrors that were done, or even, like, teach a better version. Like, it doesn't even deal with why we're not saying it. It's just like, Oh, we're just gonna say, yeah. It's just such a similar to, like, the unhoused thing. It's like, okay, sure. I will change my language around that. And then what are we going to do about people who are once we recognize this?

Alexis Madrigal 20:49

I mean, and I'll give a, I'll give a counter example to this, actually, to the very argument I was just making. I actually do think that saying enslaved people rather than slave on the same topic is a meaningful change.

Traci Thomas 21:01

I think, I think, I think saying enslavers is more meaningful than saying enslaved to me, I agree because, like, because I feel like slaves. I actually feel like I think when someone says a free slave, that is a problem, because that's not, that's actually slave is not, you know, but like, when someone is enslaved, they are a slave. So, like, I'm not bothered by that, but saying, like, oh, slave owners, I'm like, no enslavers actively. So like, I do think there are. I do think the words matter, especially when you're a person who has a platform to use words. But I think, like, the way that I mean, and this I do want to talk about abolition, because I think this book is an abolitionist text, for sure. And I think that the ways in which we police words, instead of policing the hierarchies themselves, or letting go of the police framework totally, is part of the problem, because it allows someone who says, freed slave to become a bad person when really it's like, okay. Like, okay, we get it. Like, you know, don't do that again. Like, try it this way. I do like this essay because it does bring up, like, all of these things. And I also like this essay and others, the pond one, I love the pond one, okay, so I didn't love the pond one. I know that people I did not like it. I just, I was like, Okay, get it. But what I liked about that, and what I like about what it makes me see about Robin wall Kimmerer is that, like, she is a forever student, and I admire the shit out of people like that, like that. You can tell she is working and thinking through the world, and that if she writes this exact same book and takes these exact same topics in 2025 I think we get very different essays. I think she has different thoughts about some of this stuff. I think there's different lessons that she pulls out. Because I think these are like, almost snapshots of her. And I found that really admirable to her, for her to be like, I wanted to quit. And then I was like, oh, wait a second, hold on.

Alexis Madrigal 23:09

Yeah, I guess I love, I mean, again, I think I love this in, really, in, like a religious sense, almost, or like a spiritual religion sense, you know, I because that is, that's like a parable about ecological change, you know. And it's like a pond in the pond, I say just for people who haven't read it, she basically, she gets divorced, they move up to this place in upstate New York, and her daughters basically are like, we want a pond to swim in. That was one of their things they wanted in a house, this house on this old farmhouse, and this, you know, what feels like beautiful terrain has a pond, but it's like filled with muck, as many ponds are over time, though, it's spring fed and all this other stuff. And so she commits to trying to this long term ecological change process of pulling out all of this algae to decrease the amount of muck that's in the water so that it can be clear to swim for her children, of course, by the time her children have grown up and gone to college, she still hasn't finished this project, which she works on over and over and over from her descriptions, you know, just like as she had time over a period of what must have been more than 10 years, she's just trying to make this pond, like, a little bit clearer, a little bit clearer. Bit clearer. She's using the algae to feed her farm. You know, she's like, she's just doing all this stuff that is not just leaving nature alone, but is sort of reshaping nature in this gentle, long term, kind of consistent with her bio philic principles, kind of way, and I don't know, I guess it's just, it's an image that stuck with me, and I feel like I could go back and I could read particular passages of that as a parent and as thinking about, like, how do you like, reshape the environment around your children? But. In a way that is lasting and beautiful and in keeping with the rest of your principles.

Traci Thomas 25:07

Yeah, I appreciate the essay, but I also sort of was thinking like, and when do you decide that, like, it's not your place to to insert yourself into this space that doesn't clearly, the pond does not want to be cleaned. The pond wants to, like, live its own life. And I was, I think I was looking at it more as a metaphor of, like, her kids don't even want this anymore. They're gone. Like, she is just, like, stuck on this pond. And I'm like, Robin, it's okay. Like, you could just have a beautiful pond. It doesn't have to be a swimmable pond. It could be a pond that just does what it wants to do, and you just accept that those are the gifts of the pond. And you don't have to maybe, you know, because later on, Robin, Yeah, where's your honorable harvest takes what's offered to you. It was this pond was not offered to you in the way that you wanted it. And I do think that's also like a metaphor for parenting, right? It's like, at some point you have to just like, this is the pond I have, you know, like, I'd love for my kid to stop cussing me out every day, but you know, this is the pond I have.

Alexis Madrigal 26:09

But I'll take them saying Frick. Apparently, yeah, Frick. Oh, your kids say Frick. No, they don't. But I understand that would be one possible compromise.

Traci Thomas 26:17

Sure, sure. Yeah. I wish my kids would say, Frick. They are five year old potty mouths, because I am a 43 year old.

Alexis Madrigal 26:25

Where'd they learn that, Traci Thomas?

Traci Thomas 26:27

So I did like that essay. But I also, you know, I know a lot of people had hit them very strongly. And for me, I sort of was like, okay, yeah, I see it. I see the vision. Okay, I can I talk about, I think my favorite one, yeah, go ahead, allegiance to gratitude. And it was the one about the Pledge of Allegiance and the her own. So, okay, the ones that I liked the most, in general, besides the first section, were all the ones about how to be in community with others. So the allegiance, one the nation of maples, the wadingo one the honorable harvest. All the ones that were about like, how do we actually practically live together? Because a lot of the ones that were just like, I live in a forest and I pick strawberries while I found beautiful did not apply. Do not apply to me. I live in Los Angeles, California, like I do not have a pond.

Alexis Madrigal 27:27

A plant teacher for you, too. Traci, yeah.

Traci Thomas 27:30

Yeah, exactly. My fake grass is a plant teacher for me. Don't tell Robin I have fake grass. And my garden that I started last year after reading a different book, is all dead. So, you know, I tried, I tried. I'm trying. But I really liked these ones because I, I thought I found it was felt like a way in for me, a person who's like, not like you're running in the forest all the time because you're running 50 miles a day. I'm just not, I'm just a city person and and so I really liked the allegiance, allegiance to gratitude. One. I just thought it was, like, really thoughtful, and it speaks to this idea of, like words matter, and like how we use our words matter as well. And like, what if we were saying these words instead of saying, I pledge allegiance? And also, it made me think so much about, like, the current political climate, about what is leadership and like, what does it mean? You know, she talks about, like, leadership is vision is generous, first to after offer their gifts, service and wisdom, it's not about power. And I just kept thinking as I was reading this essay, like, do we have any true political leaders or leaders who are in political office, right? Like so many of the people that I think of as leaders are not politicians are not actually shaping the rules of the land. And I just, I found that really interesting.

Alexis Madrigal 29:06

Yeah, you know that gratitude, like the idea that the rituals of gratitude are meaningful, that once like it actually made me rethink that. Because sometimes I think, you know, like, at the you're at the dinner table, and some you know, you're at somebody else's house, and they're like, well, in our house, what we do is we just, like, provide thanks for the I don't mean like, saying grace. I just mean like, although that's a version of it too. But like, you know that there, that you would be there, and people would have some ritual about being thankful for their lives and the food and all those things. Like, I'm definitely like, I'm informal as a person enough that those things make me uncomfortable. I'm like, why are we doing this ritual? What's happening right now? You know this that kind of made me rethink trying to make gratitude a more active part of of what I'm doing, not just like thinking about. Like, I am grateful for my life, and I do have that thought, like, pretty often, but making it an actual practice, a thing that you're building into what you're doing every single day. You know? I mean, that's what that pledge of allegiance chapter, really, it's like there are things we do every single day, and they do shape us. Like, I do believe that change does happen that way. You know, more than shifting one word, shifting the entire focus of a ritual, a daily ritual. I mean, there's how else could change happen. You know, that felt really important. And I guess, you know, I had a little funny experience with this too, actually, because I had just finished this chapter. Sorry, running freak shit story coming up here. And I was, I was doing one of my last big, big runs before the big run that I have coming up this weekend, the 60 miler. And I was thinking, as I ran, it's like my standard route. I was like, suddenly, so grateful. I was like, this canyon. Its exact topography, the fact that it's like, cool most of the time because it's shaded by all these trees and the fact that the footing is good. So I've never, like, you know, I've never tripped, I've never, like, twisted an ankle. All these specific things about this place have made it the place where I've gone day after day to, like, do this training, and to, like, take that entire landscape into like, you know, my lungs and my muscles and my heart. Like, what's actually happening when you're when you're training like this. And I, on my way back down the run, I thanked all the trees on the way down, like, individual trees. I was like, Thank you, Bay Laurel, you know you've been like this, like, you know I love the smell of you, like, when I'm going by. And this oak tree, like, I love that you're in this place. And I've always, like, noted your structure. And like, I think the little strawberry creek that ran through, which is why those trees are there in the first place, and, like, all the different things and like it. And I was like, kind of saying it out loud, I was not there, both basically by myself. And by the time I got to the end, I just felt so good. I was like, I am, in part, repaying my debt to this place. I am, like, recognizing its role in my life, which is quite substantial. And, you know, there's always this question of like, well, what does the landscape care about you? And I know this is one of your favorite parts of the book, right? Is like, what if the earth loves you back, right? You know? And so I was thinking about that. I was like, Well, if the earth loves me back, shouldn't I at least, like, be providing just saying, I do love this place, so why don't I just say it, you know, just say it. Say it out loud. You love it. Thank you. You know,

Traci Thomas 32:25

Yeah, I want to take a quick break because I want to keep talking about this, but we got, you know, ads, yeah, and then we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. We're going to keep talking about what we were talking about before I want to come back to, what if the earth loves you back? Because I had had it like sort of really stupid epiphany, but it was meaningful to me, so I want to share it. Because I think maybe other indoor cats like me, which is what I call myself, because also like I am the I am the girl in Robin wall kimmerers class. I'm not wearing heels to the whatever, but like I am, I am the guy who loves my car like I am the city person to which she feels some level of disdain and a little maybe disgust, which fine I get it, you know, I feel a little similarly about her in that pond. You know, I'm just you and Brad in this yes, me and Brad, though, you know, I hope Brad got the help that he needs. I like to think of the city as my own wild landscape, but we'll talk about that. But what I liked also about this essay. It's not just about the gratitude, but it's also about like the gifts and the duties. And I think like that piece of it of like, because I do feel similar? She talks early about her class of students, where she asks them, like, Do you love the Earth? And they're like, We love the Earth. And then like, Well, does Earth love you back? And they're all silent. And then, you know, she says, Well, what if the earth loved you back? And then they all have all these thoughts and feelings, and I feel sort of similarly to those people, which is, like, I appreciate the earth, like, I think things are beautiful. I am not a person who derives extreme joy and pleasure from beautiful settings like nature and I, which is like, somewhat shameful to me, I feel, especially in reading this book. But it is true to who I am, like that is just who I am. And I'm sure I could learn and I try to be observant and be like that is beautiful. But I don't, I just, I don't know. It's not for me. However, what I liked about this book is that I don't have to think that nature is beautiful to have duties and gifts that I can give back to the to nature and the world and in the same way to receive them. And I so I felt some freedom for myself as a disgusting urbanite to be like, right? I can, I can enjoy, like, I love a Bougainville. I can enjoy a Bougainville in the city of Los Angeles, and I don't have to be out in the world. And I can, like, acknowledge. That this, this flower, like, is very beautiful to me. I just love them. They're filled with spiders, disgusting. Found that out when we had Boon B in our backyard. But they're so they're so pretty, and so like that, that, like these, like little duties and gifts and like that, that is okay too, and it doesn't have to be like, a whole big thing. I just, I don't know, I like, it helps.

Alexis Madrigal 35:24

Totally, you know, there's a, there's a Japanese American artist named churro batta. And one of the things I've really loved is one of his practices, and he lived here in the Bay Area, was to draw the weeds. So he would go and he would just make sketches of like, you know, little crappy grass along the side of the road, you know. And he would find the beauty, like in the shapes of the of anything, you know. And I just this very weekend, I was like weeding. I've let my I've been such a bad gardener. I'm usually quite good gardener and very attentive, but I've been really busy and whatever, I had been bad gardener, and I was out, kind of tending, weeding and all these things. And one of the things that I love is that plants will do this thing where, if they're in a crappy place, they'll grow just like how they would normally grow, but like miniature so, like, you get, like a little California Poppy that instead of being, you know, a foot and a half tall, or a foot tall, whatever. It just grows like two inches and threads out a tiny little flower, you know. And I actually sometimes find those to be the most beautiful, you know, because you're like, man, that little guy, that little lady, that little person, survived in this way to flower, to get to this next part of the reproductive cycle of the plant. And now it could just land anywhere, you know, those seeds could just end up, you know, landing in the most fertile place, and suddenly there'd be like, 40 new Poppy plants. You know, there's something about that, like survival, where they they're true to themselves. They are the plant that they they are, but they will adapt. And I think for city people, that's like, one of the best, like, plant teachings, you know, is like, you can really, you might not have everything you need to flower in the, you know, in the way that you might but like you have enough to be yourself and to like pass on to the next set of people who are going to be carrying things

Traci Thomas 37:15

forward. Let's stay with city people. You're a city person. I am a city person, though you are also like a Nature Boy, I'm a wannabe Nature Boy, yeah, well, I mean, you're running like 50 miles or whatever, so I feel like that's like a lot of nature. So we're gonna give you, we're gonna give you half and half stats. Okay, I'm about 100% city person. I've only ever lived in cities. I only ever want to be in a city. I like people. I like buildings. I liked all of these things removed from nature. A heathen. I'm curious what you thought I felt like there was a little bit of her sort of throwing up her hands in like an oh no, yikes. City, bad, mall, bad. Like I tried to go into the mall in her honorable harvest essay. Like I tried to under the mall, I tried to bring gratitude. These pens, they're horrible, these lights, all these people. It's a nightmare. But I'm wondering, in addition to that, which was like, sort of about a different kind of city people, I do feel like she sort of throws away a lot of people who live in cities because of the hierarchical reasons that one might be forced to live in a city, whether that is racism, whether that is capitalism, all of these sort of bigger issues. And I wanted her to grapple with some of that more, because I want to know, I want some of her wisdom of like, what do we do when society has harmed people so much that they don't have the choice. I choose to live in the city, and I have the privilege to do so. If I wanted to be a country person, I could do I could go be out in the land, but there are many people who do not have that choice, and who are forced to live so far removed from the city. I mean, we're talking people who are in food desert like and I just I desperately wanted her to navigate that with us, because I felt like, yes, if you have acres and acres and ponds and forests and you love nature, and you get to garden like you get To experience so much of what nature has to offer. But if you are never exposed to those things through no fault of your own, what? What do we what is the reciprocity that we owe each other in those in those moments? Like, what? What do those people owe nature? Like, how do they connect? How like, I just, I wanted that so badly.

Alexis Madrigal 39:44

Yeah, there are moments in this book that I do feel like a little smidgen of, just like people are not her favorite species. Maybe, like, there's a time there's a time when she's kind of like, you know, she. Doesn't, she doesn't like cities. You know, she lives in a place where, you know, people meet up at the maple hut, you know, the sugary hut. I feel that, and I felt that throughout as a person who really does, actually, I do love cities. And part of the reason I love cities, the same reason I love natural places too, it's like there's so much life there, like human beings and the things that we plant and, you know, but most specifically human beings, there's just, there's a lot of us, and we're in these dense places. We have these complex relationships with each other, and like tending to those, to me feels, you know, I would say for me, personally, more exciting even than tending to plants. Though I like plants very much, and think myself as a person who likes to think about and love them, but like I love the complex interrelationships between peoples and their histories, and the sense that, you know, in a city, we're all trying to find our way among the legacies of all these structural factors, like we talked about last time, like all those things, and yet we're also still individual people with individual histories. And we need to, like, all be at the grocery store together, and we need to, like, go to the library, and we need to be walking on the street and driving next to each other, and, you know, all these things, and people are all like, trying to figure out the like human layer of the ecosystem, to me, feels like it's a huge part of what she calls, you know, naturalizing to place. Like, you know, when a plant is brought from outside and then naturalizes to place. To me, that a huge part of that when you move to a new city, or you, or you, you just grow up, is like learning what is appropriate in that place, you know. And so, for example, like in that chapter on naturalizing the place, she's talking about how there's one plant, the plantain, white man's footprint, I think she calls it is, like the word for it that's like, very like, humble and helpful and healing in the way that it has, you know, been spread across the Americas. And then there's, you know, like, well, like Himalayan Blackberry, which just takes over everything, and does this, or could do in the south, takes over everything, you know. And so one thing, even though she's telling that whole chapter about with plants and using plants as like the the ponds in this parable, is, I would think, let's say you're a gentrifier moving into a neighborhood, sure, maybe you need, maybe that chapters for you, you know, you get think about white man's footprint and not about being the kudzu or the Blackberry, like, don't call the cops on the drum circle or the gospel services, like has happened in Oakland, you know, I mean, like, you gotta be smart about, like, if you're gonna be In this like, smart is even not the right word, open to understanding where you're moving, thinking about the the impact that you're making, being healing and helpful and part of the community, rather than trying to take it over. There's like, a million things you could take from that story about how to live with each other as

Traci Thomas 42:57

people in the city. Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's a very good reading gold star for you. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think just to sort of backtrack a little bit from what I was saying before, I also understand that like that is not what Robin wall camera really wants to write about. And I understand that she probably is like and she is totally allowed to be disdainful. I'd like to think these things of city people like I don't, I don't want her not to feel and think those things. Because I think that, like, I feel slightly sensitive because I recognize myself and all the like worst people in the book. Though, I don't take the first and the last time I can say that. I leave some for others. I'm a good sharer, but I do. I did think, like there's this whole other piece of the world and like, it's not the natural world anymore, but it is where so many plants and animals and like, trees and things are still living and finding ways to live. Yeah, you're gonna have to, I guess. I don't know that's up to you personal choice. But yeah, like, I just, I guess you could definitely to to your point. You could extrapolate out these things, like, from some of the other essays. And I think, I think there are other ones that I

Alexis Madrigal 44:12

did. But wait, hold on, I want to hear. We You said you wanted to talk about this being an abolitionist book. I want to hear. Oh, yeah, okay,

Traci Thomas 44:19

okay. Well, I just think, like, to me, there's like, two parts to abolition. One is like, stop punishing and hurting people, and then the other part is like, what is possible. And if this is not a book about possibility, I cert, I don't know what this is a book about ultimately, right? I mean, not just possibility, about like, what could be, but also what has been like, what has been literally like, what has actually been possible. Because I do think so much of abolition is like, well, we can imagine whatever we want for the future. And I know there's an essay, and of course, I can't remember which one, where she talks about things being circular, which means like the future is also like the past, and that, like some of the things that are prophesied have already happened. And so to. Like that essay, and there were other sections where I just kept being like, Sure, all of these things are possible. Maybe they don't feel possible for me right now in Los Angeles, but they are possible right now for Robin wall Kimmerer and upstate New York. And so therefore they are possible for me and like. And so I just kept thinking about that, and, you know, and it's and also, like when she talks about restoration and about repairing the relationship, not just repairing the land, like, if you don't fix the relationship to the land, you're gonna just keep harming it later, and and all of these sort of, all of this language, to me that felt like something, if it wasn't necessarily about nature, that mariame Kaba would say to me, right, like all of these things, feel like we are not too far gone, even when she talks about climate change, even when she talks about, like, the dumping in the lake, that there is, there is a way forward, and there are people who are doing that work now, and that it is possible. And like we could, we could fix this, and like, we could do our part, and then also, like nature wants to do its part, like we're not, we are not. While we are responsible for much of the damage, we will not be responsible for much of the repair, because the plants and the animals will do what they've been doing, and like, they will multiply. And so I just there's a real hopeful element to this book, I thought. And I just kept thinking of it in relationship to a lot of like abolitionist texts.

Alexis Madrigal 46:29

I love that reading of it. And I also the thing about time was so good. I think it's some these stories are both history and prophecy, you know, and that, like, our moment is where history and prophecy converge. And I, man, I loved that part of it. I'd also made me think of Matthew McConaughey times a flat circle.

Traci Thomas 46:52

I know that meme, but I don't think it's like a commercial.

Alexis Madrigal 46:58

Like, no, he also has those, no, it's from that a true detective. It was like True Detective Season. I didn't watch that. It's the only television show I've seen, so I'm glad I got to use it on this. I ended up reading almost this entire book as kind of a prophecy from a post apocalyptic people, you know, like, I think, when we, when I think about some of the communities that, you know, I've reported on and been a part of, there's already been an apocalypse has swept through, you know, like the indigenous Mexico and the Central Valley, you know, I mean, this is just like we have the record of people recording the demise of their civilization in a way that we actually don't for a lot of, a lot of the rest of the Americas. We have, you know, black neighborhoods that were destroyed, that experienced something like an apocalypse, you know, between 1950 and say, you know, 19 and 1990s and I think what I find really powerful about this book is like, this is coming from the position of someone who's part of a people who are fully there. So much has been taken, so much has been destroyed, of the original culture, of the land holdings, of the plants, and the relationship that people held, like thinking about, you know, the salmon runs, you know, and the way that they've been just totally destroyed. And then this book is still even with that all true. Basically, it doesn't even focus on that stuff. It focuses on what's still there and what can be learned from from these moments. And to me, that's part of where the abolitionist connection comes from. And it even feels to me like such a live thing because of things like the Klamath dam removal, you know, things of this major land back. Or, you know, indigenous groups, after hundreds of years of losing land have been getting land back, like the Yurok tribe in Northern California. And I, when I think about those things, I just think what would have seemed crazier at some point in the past 1960 than the US government is going to give valuable land back to Native American groups and nations for management, or CO management like that, to me, is such an incredible act of imagination. It does seem on par with, you know, the Kaba style abolitionism,

Traci Thomas 49:14

yeah, yeah. There's a piece where she says, Can America, a nation of immigrants, become indigenous to the land. And I thought that was also fast, like such a fascinating thought experiment, because I do, I feel like in American white culture, which is the dominant culture of the land, there has been a decades, centuries long PR campaign to demonize other eyes, indigenous communities, right? It's like they are, first, they're heathens, you know? They're violent this, and then now there's sort of this, like they. Are. They're weird and different, and they're over there, and they're like, tree huggers, right? Like, and they're and they're not, they're not with us. And I feel like this question of, like, Can America, which is a nation of immigrants, not just these white colonialists who colonized this land, but tons of other people like, instead of being a mixing pot, can we truly like, assimilate to the land, not to the culture, but like to the to what is here and like, can we ever love it in the same way that people to whom it was first shared love it, and I it's just such a big question, and I don't obviously have an answer, but it is a worthy question. Yeah, always having one foot on the boat or like, one foot back in the homeland or whatever. So can you ever truly be like, this is where I am, this is where we are, and therefore this is who we are, obviously not erasing the people who are here first, but like coming to the land with a humility and a desire to be more like aligned with the people who are here first, as opposed to like, creating something else

Alexis Madrigal 51:22

well, and it's, yes, all of that. And I think we, we kind of have to, right? I mean, I think for for many of us, there's, there's not really anywhere else to go. And so this is it. This is like, this is the land we're on. I think, you know, in that chapter, she says, like, you know, to to naturalize the place means to, like, live as if the next, the coming generations, matter, you know. And I think, I mean, it's such a simple, it's such a simple thing. And I think sometimes it can become like a cliche, like, you know, it's literally the paper towels you buy are called seventh generation. You know about, like, thinking of seven generations down the way, but to actually take that on in a real way, I think, is, like, really significant. I mean, there is almost nobody in the United States right now who's actually living that in, like a, yeah, you will. I mean, if you have a car, for example, or use natural gas like, seven generations from now, the chance that you're still doing that in an industrial society is basically zero. And so what is, what does it mean to us? Like, what do we have to do? And I, I'm also, you know, there are some people in the literary past who've kind of gone down this road, and I find some of them like to be increasingly powerful. It's so easy to parody some of these folks, like take Gary Snyder, you know, American poet, spent a lot of time in Asia, but also was, you know, moved into the backwoods of Northern California and got really into, like, bio regionalism, the sense that, you know, why do we have political entities? I mean, talk about an imaginary thing. Why do we have political entities instead of that that don't map to the watersheds? Like his idea was basically like, we should have political entities that map onto the actual determinants of what life is like in a place like watersheds,

Traci Thomas 53:14

and not the topography of the place exactly,

Alexis Madrigal 53:17

and it's and it's operation and function. I think he specifically wanted watersheds because of just like, the way that they happen to function. And I just thought that kind of, that's the sort of thing that I end up thinking, like, will we live in that world? You know, where we where our cities, and all of us, our city people, have been brought into some kind of new alignment through different political structures. And just the fact that I ended up thinking about all that stuff made me think this book is valuable for city

Traci Thomas 53:44

people too. No, I think that part's right. I want to share my little sort of stupid epiphany, but this was during stupid, yeah, it's not great, but I'm going to share it. You know, I've never been one to be afraid to look stupid on this podcast, but in the honorable harvest essay, which, so my sister in law is a professor of Ethnic Studies, and she teaches. She loves this book. It's one of her favorite books. She was so excited we're doing it. And she's like, Oh, I teach one of those essays. So when I saw her, I was like, oh, what's the essay you teach? And she said, I teach honorable harvest. So I actually read through the whole book in order skip that one and save that one for last, which I'm sort of glad I did, because it is sort of like the big summation piece of the whole thing. I feel like, if you had to pick one essay that sums up this entire book, I think it's probably that. But the revelation that I had in this one was talking a lot about reciprocity, as she does as she's wanted to do. And I just had this moment of like, wait a second, what if we actually treated Mother Earth, like our mom, which, like, feels so stupid, but I don't know. I mean, people have issues with their moms, obviously, or they're like, but like sub and mother like figure, where it's like someone who has given so much to which. So much is owed that you you know you respect them, but sometimes you let your mom down, like, sometimes you do things your mom doesn't like. Sometimes you go above and beyond and you surprise your mom, and it's the best. Sometimes you do like, the littlest thing, and your mom is like, this is the greatest thing that's ever happened. But like that we actually, you know, going back to the grammar of animacy, like, treat the earth and nature like an actual being, right? Like one being that we owe a sense of, like, love and kindness to. And I think, like, the reason I think this is a stupid epiphany is one is because I'm saying mom, which, like, makes it sound stupid. And also, obviously this is the whole point of the book. But I just it did finally click into my mind of, like, what she actually meant by the reciprocity. Because sometimes it's like, oh, you've given me a berry strawberry bush. Like, now I must plant these seeds for future. Like, never gonna happen for me, right? Like, I'm just never, like, I'm never doing that. But like, I don't know, for some reason that really clicked for me. I

Alexis Madrigal 56:03

forgot to text Mother Earth again.

Traci Thomas 56:06

Oh, my God. I forgot to text mom that I'm gonna be late.

Alexis Madrigal 56:11

I think that you could do, you could find a much worse guide for like, how to be a citizen of the world than that. You know what I mean, like, I think that's one thing you never, you ever make like this. I'm gonna go somewhere with this. I hope. Do you ever make flatbreads or like, you know, an old recipe, something people were making for a long time, you know. But for me, it's like I started learning to make flatbreads from Rima seal, you know, it's like a chef here in the Bay Area, and people have been making this kind of flat bread for 1000s of years, you know. And so like, you're following the recipe. And like, I had never baked bread before, you know, three, four years ago, I started to, like, try and figure out, how do you deal with flour? Flour so confusing. And like, I'm good cook, but I had never dealt with flour. And so I was like, Alright, I'm gonna do I'm gonna do flour. And I kept messing up the recipe in ways. I was like, Oh, God, too much water, too much, you know, all these different things. Oh, I didn't do this, that, right or that, right? But then, like, at the end of the day, these are, like, rugged recipes. These are things that, for 1000s of years, people made. So, like, they didn't have a kitchen scale, they didn't have a fucking kitchen aid, you know what I mean, right? They, like, didn't have any of these things. And so the idea that you'd be able to make this roughly flat thing, put it on a hot surface, and then it would make something that was delicious, like that just works. And so flatbread recipes to me, versus like these, like, precious, like, oh, I spent all day waiting for it to proof and rot, you know? Like, yeah. Like, like, I'm not gonna get that right, yeah. And I feel like, what this book has, it's like, these stories, even if you forget half of it, or you only remember a piece of it, or, like, you know, this one part sticks in your mind, and you mix two different things up together, it kind of doesn't matter. These are, like, rugged recipes for, like, how to be a person in this world and, and I kind of like, I mean, that's why I do again. I'll come back to my like, gospel or like that. This is like, this is like, got some chapters and verses and parables that you can just pull out in all these different ways and that precise configurations don't matter. What matters is like that you get that core story about what it is to be human being on Earth. Love your mom, love your mom. That's on 10 love

Traci Thomas 58:16

Mother Earth. Honestly, we should end there. We usually talk about the title and the cover, but I don't know, spreading sweet grass, it's great. I just, I think that's a great place to end. I think, I think you are so right about the Bible sort of analogy. And then I also think, like the rugged recipes. I just, I do really like that. I think that's exactly right.

Alexis Madrigal 58:39

Okay, go ahead. What

Traci Thomas 58:41

do you want to say?

Alexis Madrigal 58:44

Because I'm old, I don't really know how Riz is supposed to be used properly. Okay, there was an amazing comment on your thing saying the Riz on this one, and it made my whole week. Yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 58:58

Cool. Yeah, yeah, you're very cool. I know no one's ever said I have raised however we're reading the comments people, yeah, no, no, I'm not really, I'm not really a raise person. But yeah, that was exciting.

Alexis Madrigal 59:10

That was, that was truly exciting. So thank you to that listener. You made my whole week. Yes.

Traci Thomas 59:15

And thank you to all the listeners. Feel free to give us compliments at any time, if you'd like to be mentioned on this podcast. Other shows have like, write in Ask, ask the stacks. No, just share compliments, and we will talk about you nicely. I'll get you everything that is reciprocity, people that is loving your mom, I am your pod. Mother. Love me. Be nice to me, and also all of my guests, everybody I've been talking today to Alexis madrigal, author of the Pacific circuit, which, if you haven't read yet, you must. We've been talking about braiding sweet grass, which, if you haven't read yet now you basically have, but you should still read it. And if you keep listening, you're gonna find out our September book club pick at the end of the episode. And. And Alexis, thank you for doing this with me. You were the perfect person, my little nature. Boy,

Alexis Madrigal 1:00:05

anytime, anytime. Let's take it on the trail.

Traci Thomas 1:00:08

Yeah, yeah, I love it. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right.

Traci Thomas 1:00:19

Y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank listening, and thank you again to Alexis madrigal for joining the show. All right, it's time for the moment you've all been waiting for drum roll, please. Our book club pick for September is the lilac people by Milo Todd. This is the story of a trans man in pre World War Two Berlin who must survive, first the Nazis and then the allies, all while trying to protect the people he loves most. We will discuss this book on Wednesday, September 24 right here on the podcast, and you can tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join. Join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
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Ep. 385 A Human Champagne Bubble with Addie E. Citchens