Ep. 387 Full-Time Literary with Denne Michele Norris

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

This week on The Stacks we are joined by Denne Michele Norris, the editor and chief of Electric Literature. She is the first Black, openly trans woman to helm a major literary publication. She is also behind two 2025 books, her debut novel, When the Harvest Comes and the anthology, Both/And: Essays by Trans and Gender-Nonconforming Writers of Color. Today, we discuss her path to becoming “full time literary", and how she's using her seat at the table to bring more trans writers of color into the fold.

For the month of September, the Stacks Book Club will be reading The Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, September 24th with Denne Michele Norris returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Denne: Instagram | Podcast
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Substack | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Denne Michele Norris 0:00

Publishing is so emotional, and there's just so much happening that you have to navigate just to sort of stay afloat in it. But I just have been able to sort of quiet myself and look around and be like, I published two books with like, the two biggest presses in the world, and these are books that 10 years ago might not have been allowed to exist. My entire vision as an editor is so much bigger than me. It's about the people that I can bring to the conversation and bring to the table, and it is about in whatever way I'm able to to change or grow the face of literature.

Traci Thomas 0:37

Welcome to the stacks podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and this week I am joined by den Michelle Norris. Denne is the editor in chief of the online literary publication, Electric Literature. Den is also the author of two books that came out this year. One, her debut novel When the Harvest Comes, and the second, an anthology called Both/And: Essays by Trans and Gender Non-conforming Writers of Color today. Denne and I talk about the work she is doing to bring more trans writers of color into the literary world. The difference for her of being the editor versus being the one edited and we add a handful of books to the trans literary canon. The Stacks Book Club pick for September is The Lilac People by Milo Todd. Denne Michele Norris will be back to discuss the book with us on Wednesday, September 24 everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the stacks pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter, unstacked over on sub stack. Each place offers different perks, like community conversation, virtual book clubs over on Patreon, and then you'll get some of my writing and my hot takes on my sub stack. And if you join between now and September, 22 you will get access to the stacks 2025 Non-fiction Reading Guide. It is only available through the 22nd of September, so act fast. And most importantly, I think you get to know that your support makes it possible for me to make this podcast every single week, and to make it free for all to join the stacks pack, head to patreon.com/the stacks and go to Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com to get that newsletter. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with Denne Michele Norris.

Traci Thomas 2:40

hello, everybody. I am beyond thrilled today to welcome to the show one of my new book world friends. She is Denne Michele Norris. She is an editor. She is an author. She is a one of the truly greatest literary citizens we have den. Welcome to the Atacks.

Denne Michele Norris 3:02

Thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting. I'm kind of nerding out like I said. I was like, Oh, I'm one of the cool kids now, like everyone's talking about you in the stacks, and I just, I'm a Stan. So like, yeah.

Traci Thomas 3:16

Well, I'm a you Stan. So for the people who don't know, den, can you just give us, like, a little backstory? Where are you from? Maybe, like, what brought you to books? What's your who are you? Like, loosely, it doesn't have to be professional resume either. We'll get to that stuff later.

Denne Michele Norris 3:33

Perfect. Well, I let's see. I'm just a girl from Ohio. I love to tell people that I was born in New Jersey, but I my parents moved to Cleveland Heights, Ohio when I was one, and that's where I grew up. And, you know, I had a very, sort of happy, fun childhood in the suburbs of Cleveland. I lived in a very, very progressive place. Like, you walk around my neighborhood now, and there's, like, you know, all of those signs that's like, in this house, trans women are women, and Black Lives Matter, and all that stuff. Like, I went to a little elementary school that was called every school in the district had a theme, and my school was the peace school, so that that tells you, like--

Traci Thomas 4:09

What were the other themes? Like, besides peace, what were they going with? Like the fun school, like the rude school, like, what were the other vibes?

Denne Michele Norris 4:17

I wish I had any clue what any other school went by, but I had no idea I was so wrapped up in my school. But I was Peacemaker of the month. Every year I would, I would win that at some point. So it was just really fun. And I got to books, because my parents were very, very serious and intense about academia in school and about reading. And so when I was a baby, like, when I literally like, like, from newborn on until I could read. My mom had a rule that every day someone needed to read to me 10 times a day, and so, 10 times a day, 10 times a day. And so by the time I got to preschool, my teachers were like, oh, Den is like, first in line when we do story time. And sits right up front, in front of the teacher, because she's so excited about stories. So I've always sort of been this really voracious reader. So in college, I studied creative writing a little bit. I actually had an idea for a novel, something that was like loosely based on the Scottsboro boys, and I thought I would be a lawyer, and when I was 60 and had amassed a bunch of money, I would retire and start a second life as a novelist, but I grew up. But yeah, yeah, that's what I that was, like the whole plan, I was like, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna get a I'll be like James Patterson and publish 20 novels, one a year. Like, at the end of my life, I was an English major, and so I because of this love for reading and writing. But I graduated in the the economy of 2008 the recession a great I graduated 2008 also, oh, my God, that that's part of why we connect, because we Yes, the exact same thing, yes. So all my friends who were in law school or who were already lawyers, were like, listen, there's too many lawyers. Like, don't be a lawyer unless you really want to be one. And I just thought by that point, I knew I wanted to write. And I was like, well, if I'm going to be broke anyway, I might as well be broke and do what I love to do. Yeah. And so that was it. That was it. From there and from there it it went, and it's been slow going, but I am very happy because I am, I am full time literary which was always the goal was to be I didn't know how far my writing would go. I didn't know if I was talented enough to be published. I didn't know any of these things. But I was like, if I can be in that world in any way, any way, they'll have me, whether it's as an editor or an agent or, like, just a reader who commentates. I couldn't imagine, like what you do, for example, at that time, but like any way that I can be involved in this world, I want to be there.

Traci Thomas 6:48

Okay, so when did you become full time literary?

Denne Michele Norris 6:48

That didn't happen until 2021 when I got the job at electric literature. So up until that point, I worked for many years in nonprofit service service work, mostly in Harlem, all in New York City. I had done one year as a care coordinator for a healthcare LGBTQ healthcare startup, like in like I had done that in covid, which was great because I was serving the queer community, which I'd always wanted to do. But when I got this job, I was able to kind of set all of that aside and just devote all my time and energy to books and reading and writing and craft and like being fully immersed in this world.

Traci Thomas 7:28

Well, congratulations. Thank you. I mean, full time literary is very cool. I feel right. It's like, it's really, it's really a certain kind of nerds, real life dream.

Denne Michele Norris 7:39

Yes, yes, it really. It really is. And you know, it's for the writer. It isn't necessarily always the healthiest thing. That is the thing that I've come to learn. And so it just means that you have to have a robust life outside of the literary world. Because I think when you are a writer and you're putting out books, there's so much that's happening and there's so much that doesn't happen, and it can be challenging to navigate, so that I kind of didn't see that coming. But it doesn't negate the fact that, like, I love what I do, I love this life I wouldn't like even on bad days. I just think I'm so lucky that I get to do this. And I think about, like, going to law school, and if shade to lawyers, you need them, but like, and I just think, Oh God, like, I could have, like, I could be doing that. You know?

Traci Thomas 8:31

Yeah. What does your So, like, you are a full time literary for people who don't know you're the editor in chief of electric lit, which is an online literary publication for people who don't know you need to know. Electric lit is one of my, like, main sources for information about books about what's coming just the best. But you also are a writer, obviously. And you said, you know, writers need a ROB like writers who are full time literary need a robust outside life. So what does your robust outside life consist of that you're willing to share with us. You don't have to get too personal, but whatever you're willing to share.

Denne Michele Norris 9:06

I mean, I certainly have many friends who are in the literary sphere, but I also have many friends who are outside of the sphere. So some of my closest friends are not writers. They're all voracious readers. They all like they all love Goodreads, for example, which like I am, just like, that's for readers. It's not for me. It's not my space. Yeah. And so there was one night where we were having dinner, probably four months or five months before my book came out, and I had, like, it had just started coming up on Goodreads, and people, like early readers, started to read it, and I really wasn't paying attention to it, but I told my friends. I said, you cannot talk about Goodreads around me. I said, You I said, you have to leave. I said, you know, I have two books coming out next year. You you need to take that conversation and save it for when I'm not in the room. Save it for the group chat that I'm not a part of. Like it needs, not either. But I say that to say that I have like, it's mostly friends, but also like I'm obsessed with. Figure skating. I was a competitive figure skater growing up.

Traci Thomas 10:02

That's right. Oh my gosh. How did I first of course, yeah.

Denne Michele Norris 10:05

So all of so that and I worked, actually worked in figure skating for a while. One of the nonprofits I worked at was a place that, you know, takes girls who are from Harlem and the Bronx and kind of helps them become figure skaters. And the idea is that the skills that they the tools that they, that they use to learn how to figure skate, like the like, the sort of drive and the dedication to learn these skills in this extremely difficult sport will translate into them being great students, being student leaders, leaders in their community, and going off and having amazing, empowered lives. And so I worked at this organization for four or five years, and so figure skating is also a huge part of my life, and I have friends from there and from my competitive days, and I coached for a while. And so that's a big part of my life, too.

Traci Thomas 10:49

There are two friends of this podcast, aside from you, who I associate with figure skating. Do you know? Do you know Sarah Hildreth, fiction matters, she was a figure skater. And she is like, I mean, like, literally, when she told me she was a figure skater, my response was, of course, like, yeah, literally. How did I not see this coming? But she fills me in on figure skating drama. But also, do you know Robert Samuels? He was one of the co authors of the book. His name is George Floyd that won the Pulitzer. And he is, like, reports on figure skating a ton. I don't know that he was a figure skater, but he's like, so in the figure skating world, when there was that tragic plane accident with many of those, like young figure skaters, he like, did the reporting on it like he had, but he had been at the competition or whatever, and had come back the day before. So he had done reporting on the competition, like, he's like, very in the figure skating world, which I did not know because he came to me, like, in the form of this book about George Floyd, which was phenomenal. And then, like, as I got to meet him at some literary festivals, and then I, like, saw his reporting, and I was like, This is so weird. And he's like, so into figure skating. So anyways, one day to meet him, you have to meet him. He's so great. You'll love him. Do you still skate at all?

Denne Michele Norris 12:07

I have not in many years. And I actually started training in the fall of 2020 training just like taking lessons with a friend again to let me get in shape. And because I missed it, and then covid happened, and I haven't gotten back to it. And, you know, this is like, maybe to in the weeds. New York City is a very difficult place to figure skate. It's like, it's just a jam, like, the way that the city works, it's difficult. And so getting to a rink is just like, kind of a hassle. And so I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm starting to really miss it. And I was thinking of moving away from New York City for a while, and when I did, I was like, man, it's like, if I get back to Cleveland, or if I move to the Hudson Valley, I can just hop in my car and drive to a rink, and that would be amazing. And imagine the skating life I could have again. And so it is in the back of my mind as a way, a way to either make it work, or to leave and then skate.

Traci Thomas 12:57

Yes, to leave, leave, to skate. You're like, I gotta move, not because I don't like it here, but because I gotta get to a rink. Yeah, okay, I wanna start by talking about both and which is your essay collection that you were it's an anthology, I guess that you are the editor on the subtitle is essays by trans and gender non conforming writers of color. First of all, it's a star studded list. I mean, it's a quick emezie Caro de Robert this. It's just like, banger after banger. There were a lot of new voices to me. There were people that I knew and loved. It's really sort of expansive, even though it's a teeny, tiny book. It's such a fast read. I was like, wait, I'm I was like, reading it often. I was like, wait, I'm halfway through what happened here. But can you tell us a little bit about the origin story of this collection, both and why you wanted to do it, like, where the idea came from, because it has, like, a longer story than just being a book.

Denne Michele Norris 13:55

Yes. So okay, we mentioned in 2021 I became full time literary I started the job as editor in chief at electric lit. Electric lit is a prominent space in the literary industry, and I became the first black, openly trans woman to run a major publication. So there was a lot of like, excitement around my appointment, like, a lot that I saw and a lot that I didn't see. Like, I remember a few days after I got the job, I was in therapy, and my therapist, who at the time was a black trans woman, was like, Oh, the girls are talking about you in this job. She's like, no less than 10 people texted me like, Oh, my God, look at this black trans woman. And so there was this, this real sort of sense of celebration. But it was also, this was the late summer of 2021, so, you know, later, I think later that year, or maybe it had just come out, Dave Chappelle had put out another comedy special where he really was attacking trans folks. And also, there was some controversy around Chimamanda nguza avicha, and she had written a long letter, yes, that was a whole thing, and it was interesting. Because what I happened to see specifically was there were people who had cheered on meet people in institutions that had cheered on the announcement of me getting this job, and were also very much viscerally supporting Chimamanda and goes Aditya. And I'm not about throwing black people away ever, and I'm about calling people in so, like I'm not necessarily even super. That that is nuanced. But the point for me is that this was a huge amount of cognitive dissonance. And so I and then, because we were in the news cycle, I was like, you know, there's so many people who are talking about trans people right now, and none of those people visibly really are trans people like our voices are not in the room, and especially trans people of color. And I just kept thinking, Well, what can I do? What can I do? I can't. I was like, this, this problem, this issue of people, you know, using trans people as a political football is going to last. This is not a one and done, right? And so I was like, I can't get trans people booked on CNN. I do not have that much power. But what I can do is publish, intentionally, publish more and more trans people and trans people and trans people of color. Because I was publishing trans white people, I was not hearing from strangers of color, and so I said, I can publish these folks. Give them a platform. Book editors read electric lit, everyday literary agents Read, read electric lit every day. We have the power to jump start literary careers. And if I can get more people in the pipeline to be publishing books, there are, there will be more people available to have these conversations, so that eventually, hopefully, whenever these conversations are happening, one or two of us at least, can be in the room or near the room. That was the sort of vision. And so We fundraised around this so that we could pay our contributors for our online series five times our normal rate. So We fundraised, and it was our most successful fundraiser to that point. I think We fundraised $5,000 over our goal. Within one month, it was everywhere it was. We were like, it was, it was amazing. And so we were able to publish people, you know, or pay people, compensate people really well for it, and there were people who've been published by us who it has helped to jump start their careers. And then we had the idea to maybe to try our hand at making it a book. And so I wrote a book proposal, and we did not know that it would really happen, but I did a kick ass book proposal, and in fact, when our agents went to sell it, we had an offer the same day they sent it to editors.

Traci Thomas 17:24

Oh my gosh, yeah, that's amazing.

Denne Michele Norris 17:27

It was insane. So it told us that that people were hungry for this work to be in the world. People were hungry to hear from these voices. It's been so warmly received, and I think by and large in the literary space, I think it's an interesting time right now to be publishing in a big way as a trans person, given the cultural context and political context that we're in, and given the fact that many publishers are part of large corporations, but the people, like the people, the readers and the community, they want our work and so that is amazing.

Traci Thomas 18:04

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that's really interesting to me about this moment, like politically, is that, and it's touched on in the book, I think, I mean, one of the things that I kind of liked about the book is that it was written, a lot of these were written very recently, so there's references to, like, the 2024, election, I'm like, wait, this book came out really, really fast. But one of the things that I've been struggling with, just as it as it pertains to trans people, as it pertains to people of color, as it pertains to women broadly, is like, we are in a pendulum swing back towards conservatism, in a way that feels like extremely quick to me. I think, I think I know that these pendulums sort of swing, and like, there is, like, we move from left to right, but this feels like a real hard push right, like, in just a few years. And so I'm wondering, like, and more specific to you and this book as this harder push right. I feel like the people who are getting pressed the hardest are trans people, specifically trans women, specifically, specifically trans women of color. And so I'm wondering to you, like, what does it feel like to have come up with this idea in 2021 when the pendulum was sort of on the left turn side, and now to be releasing something into the world where you are and many people in your book, or everyone in your book, are sort of like targets of a lot of rhetoric and violence and just like icky Online ignorance, like things that range from like, horrible, horrible, horrible, to things that are just like, ew. Like, you dumb, right?

Denne Michele Norris 19:48

It feels validating because I was right. Like, I Okay, like, I was right, because this is the thing, right. Like, talk. Talking about Dave Chappelle, like, that was, I think his third comedy special where he did that, and like so many people you know were quietly cheering him on, and he was never really canceled, like, so some people were offended and walked out of Netflix because you said some shit, like, like, right? Like, like, the checks still cleared. The checks still cleared. You doing just fine. So I think for me, and I think for a lot of trans people, like, we could see the writing on the wall. The cracks were already there, and they're not there because of nothing. So, you know, I--

Traci Thomas 20:28

Th-- the sorry, the cracks meaning, like this push towards...

Denne Michele Norris 20:32

Yes, yeah.

Traci Thomas 20:33

More hate?

Denne Michele Norris 20:34

Okay, yeah. Like it was, like, you could tell that, like, even if only a few people were saying these things. Even if only a few people were doing these things, there were enough people in the wings cheering them on that you were like, Oh, this can go this can go to the right, really, rather than I normally know the phrases go left, but like, this can go really, really quickly and really drastically and really badly and and I think that's true. And the other thing that I always that made me feel like I knew that this could happen was that, again, in those conversations, like, you know, where people who are not trans were defending trans people and trans rights, I often felt like the things that they were saying were more touchy feely than sort of fact or evidence based. And so I was like, that's not going to hold up when people are attacking us more viscerally, like, you really, like, like people who really were knowledgeable about trans people in trans history, which is a thing I'm still learning, by the way, like we're not having these conversations. And so it felt like a lot of the acceptance that we saw and that we experienced was like, sort of just like, Oh, yeah. Like, like, like, sure. Like, it's fine without people really, like, you know, knowing trans people, loving trans people, yeah, actively caring about the well being of trans people, versus like, yeah, we can have a few trans people in a TV show, and we can have a show about trans people and like, that's fine. And so it just so I think perhaps none of it felt real to me. And so now, in a way, I and I'm not an I say, and I can say this sitting comfortably in my little home in New York as a person who's published two books this year and like is not necessarily in any real, immediate danger, and I'm not an I'm not an activist, but this feels like the fight that we were gearing up for. This feels like the time that we knew was coming, and now it's becoming so broad, so many people are feeling it because of the rhetoric that's happening around so many people that there's a part of me that sometimes is sort of like, well, join the damn club. Glad you're here now. Like, yeah, because so much is happening.

Traci Thomas 22:50

Yeah. I want to push back slightly. I think you are an activist. You might not be an activist in the same way, but I do think you're sort of a literary activist, just like, just the idea of this project. Like, to be like, Look, I'm gonna, I am going to, like, not, this is gonna sound worse than I mean it like, I'm gonna force these trans people of color down your throat, because I'm here now, and you're gonna make space for us, whether I have to, like, fundraise for it and get it done like that is definitely activism. It's like, you know, maybe literary activist feels more comfortable. But I think anyone who steps into a new role and says, like, look, pull up, and this is how it's gonna work, and we're gonna make it work, like, to me, that is a form of activism. It's not, you know, it's maybe not like how Raquel Willis does it, but I think, like, it's pretty, I mean, I think what you've done with this book and with the with the series before, is, like, pretty aggressive for publishing. I feel like publishing is so slow and like waiting around and sort of, we'll try this and that. And you were sort of like, No, babe, it's happening. We're doing it. We got the dollars. It's done. Like, the fact that the book even exists in 2025 when you just got the job in 2021 is like, and we know that it takes, like, a year to publish something, you know what? I mean? It's like, it's like, you are an activist. I just want to say that because I don't want you to think that you're not. I think you're one.

Denne Michele Norris 24:13

I certainly feel like I'm that. Like, I've been telling myself I was like, You know what you are? You are that bitch.

Traci Thomas 24:18

. That's it, sure, activist or not, that is a fact. I think, yeah, I mean, I do think that, do you, do you feel that way more now this year, after publishing two books, or, like, when did you start to step into that feeling about yourself? Oh,

Denne Michele Norris 24:34

it's very recent. Like, maybe in the last week?

Traci Thomas 24:38

Like, oh, okay, okay.

Denne Michele Norris 24:41

You know it's, it's, it's new, but I, you know it's, I just publishing is so it's so emotional, and there's just so much happening that you have to navigate, just to sort of stay afloat in it. But I just have been able to sort of quiet myself and look around and be like, I. I published two books with like, the two biggest presses in the world, and these are books that 10 years ago might not have been allowed to exist, right? And so that feels pretty spectacular, and I'm just stepping into it, and I'm using it to help fuel me through the rest of the year and through, you know, the future projects that I'm thinking about and working on and all of that, but I but what I will say is that I just want to do more of this. I don't know if I'll actually edit another anthology like it is, sure, tough work, but I my entire vision as an editor is so much bigger than me. It's about the people that I can bring to the conversation and bring to the table, and it is about in whatever way I'm able to to change or grow the face of literature. I do not want trans people of color to ever be we are not anecdotal. We are not bonuses. We get to be central in this industry, and that is what I want to achieve for us. So whatever that looks like, wherever I'm able to do that, that's the goal. And I never thought about it, but you're right, in four years of having this job, look at what I did, that's amazing!

Traci Thomas 26:19

So I think it's really, I mean, there's a lot of people in publishing who've done a lot less in the last four years. Let me put it that way. Before we sort of move on to your book taste, we should talk about the novel when the harvest comes that came out in April, your debut novel, do people sort of like, give them, like, a little 32nd sizzle about what it's about?

Denne Michele Norris 26:41

you know, I would say it is a an interracial queer love story that deals with grief. It deals with death. It's a sweeping, you know, when I was selling it, publishers were like, it's a sweeping family novel. I think ultimately, it's really beautiful and really hopeful. And I wanted to tell a story where queer people of color, femme people of color, were allowed to have a sort of romantic fever dream of our lives that we want as kids. So it was, in some ways, it's, it's, it can feel almost fantastical. In some ways, it's very realistic, but, yeah, but that's what I wanted. I wanted something tender and sweet. Did you?

Traci Thomas 27:21

Were you working on both the books at the same time? Or did you finish the novel and then start working on both?

Denne Michele Norris 27:26

And I mostly finished the novel and started working on both, and there was a maybe one month of overlap where I was doing my final, final edits on the novel and working on both and but for the most part, they were separate.

Traci Thomas 27:42

Okay, I was just thinking, like, that's gotta be a lot. Like, brain switch, like I'm the writer, I'm taking notes from my editor, and then, like I'm the editor. Listen to me. People shut up and listen, I got notes. Here's the red one, yeah. Do you have a preference? Like, do you prefer to edit, or do you prefer to be edited or be the writer?

Denne Michele Norris 28:05

I don't know if I have preference. I think it's certainly easier. I tend to feel like when it comes to dealing with writers, it's easier to be the editor than to be the writer, because part of the job of being an editor is having a very clear eyed vision in a way that sometimes the writers struggle to, which is sort of, I think, being the writer, and that's okay. And so a writer can come to me and feel like they're having profound difficulty with a project, and if I'm the editor, I can often look at it and see all of the different paths that they can take in just a really clear way. And as a writer, I can do that for myself up to a point. So like, I'm usually sending in, when I send work into anyone, it's usually very, very polished, but there are things I struggle with, and there are things that I really need help and guidance on. And so I love, I do love being edited, but it's easier to be the editor.

Traci Thomas 29:03

I think. What are the things that you feel like you struggle with or need help and guidance on? Is it like a like a general idea, or is it specific?

Denne Michele Norris 29:12

It's usually the big picture elements of a narrative. So I don't write an order and say--

Traci Thomas 29:17

Oh my god, exactly. I don't understand people like you. So many people come on this podcast and talk about like, I heard like, I just, and I'm like, how, okay, go ahead.

Denne Michele Norris 29:27

It's one of the only ways to get me to kind of move out of my trance of fear, of panic. That happens I'm staring at the at the like page is like, well, I can do everything about this later. All I have to do is get the words on the page and sort of then I can place it into the larger narrative. But what that means is that I often am writing in a way that means that that things can go anywhere in the narrative. And so figuring out that arc and figuring out the way to make it emotionally resonate with readers can be really challenging, and sometimes it's hard to know when you need to be. Writing things, and when it's like, no, you don't need to rewrite this. You need to move it 80 pages earlier or 100 pages further, and you need to rewrite the interstitial content to package it in the right way that it meet, that it works for a reader in the way they're hoping it'll work. That kind of stuff. I'm good at executing it. I'm not always good at seeing how it all works, yeah, and so that's where you send that help. Yeah?

Traci Thomas 30:25

Makes sense? Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna be right back.

Traci Thomas 30:35

We're back. I so normally we do this thing called Ask the stacks, where someone writes in and they ask for book recommendations, but I didn't want to do that with you, because I wanted to be the person to ask the question. So it's my podcast. Sorry, everybody, but everybody, if you want to do ask the stacks next time email, ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com, so basically, I'm the asker. Earlier this year, we did a bonus episode with Emily St James, who wrote woodworking and we were talking, a lot of it was after sort of the Women's Prize list came out that Chimamanda was on. And we were talking, sort of there Gavin Newsom thing had happened. Like, it was just, like, a lot of like, ick, trans pop culture stuff was going on. And one of the things that I had asked Emily was, I wanted her to give us, sort of like a trans help us start a trans literary canon. And so I'm gonna extend this to you. Will you give us, like, two or three books that you think should be on listeners of the stacks trans literary canon, and if you say any repeats, I'll just tell you, and you can fill in something else.

Denne Michele Norris 31:35

Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to I mean, for me, one that was really important was, it's hard because there's not a ton of stuff by trans writers of color, but there are a few things, but Imogen Benny's Nevada was incredible for me.

Traci Thomas 31:51

Think that is on I think that was on the list. I think so, I can't remember now, but I think it was okay.

Denne Michele Norris 31:57

So, so okay. So if that's on the list I might do. I mean, I'm going to go ahead and actually add just all of Tori theater, so stag dance and the transition baby. I think both are canon, because they're both incredible, and Tori is amazing. And then, I mean, I haven't read it yet, but I kind of want to add the lilac.

Traci Thomas 32:23

Okay, well, that's our book club pick for September, everybody. So we could add it. I'm I'm so excited about it. What do you know? I don't know anything about Milo Todd. What do you know about the author, if anything?

Denne Michele Norris 32:36

I mostly just know that Milo Todd is cool as shit. We did an we did an event together for something in Boston. Was it?

Traci Thomas 32:48

Oh yes, yes, yes, it was. I saw these pictures of this was, like the Boston Book Festival type thing. Yes, literary something.

Denne Michele Norris 32:55

I remember anything was, and I just really, I really enjoyed our conversation. The conversation, which Emily Zhao, actually, author of girlfriends, was also on as well, but that's really all I know about Milo. Like, I don't know them well, but I have been excited about this book, especially because it deals with trans history, which I think, yes, we don't have anywhere near enough of anywhere in print. Yeah. So I just, like, it's one of the books that I'm I'm super excited about, oh my god. And also one more, it just, I know it just came out, but, but what we're dealing with is the fact that, like, there is not a robust system, yeah, trans people.

Traci Thomas 33:30

I mean, I feel like that's why I want to build this Canon, because I feel like it's sort of like we can get in on the ground floor, a little bit like, I don't ask every author from every like, marginalized group to build a canon. Because I think, like, there is a black literary canon, but I think as far as, like, the trans literary canon goes, it's a little bit smaller, because the history, yeah, like, so I feel like that's, I think that's why the question is exciting to me, is like, we get to sort of shape it, and by we, I mean you and Emily and like, I get to chime in, but like that, it's happening now.

Denne Michele Norris 34:05

So one other that came out, I can't believe this wasn't top of mind, because I've been obsessed with this book, hot girls with balls by Benedict. Oh, is it amazing? It's just, I mean, she's brilliant, she's brilliant. And I actually almost had the opportunity to edit her a couple of years ago, and I really want to work with her again in the future. So I just, I am thirsty for that opportunity. We're reading together at a reading in a couple of weeks, which is exciting too, but that book is also amazing. She's brilliant, and I also think it's like, perfectly timely, because it is dealing with trans women in sports at a moment when, right, that's sort of the specific thing that the that even Gavin Newsom, world over on us, on so hot girls with balls for sure, and Tori Peters, both to Peters and lilac people, even though I haven't read it yet, and we're about to read it.

Traci Thomas 34:58

But wait, did you read. Read the other Olympians that came out last year, the like non fiction book about trans--

Denne Michele Norris 35:07

It's on my nightstand, though, right?

Traci Thomas 35:10

So good. It's so good. It's one of my favorite books. Last year, I loved it so much that the beginning of this year, I started by being like, Michael waters, will you please come on the podcast? Because I just loved it so much. But you were saying, like, you don't know a ton about trans history, and I obviously didn't know this history, but I'm a huge sports person, and I'm obsessed with World War Two. So I was like, Oh, let me check this book out and see and I was like, it's so good, so I'm excited to sort of read the lilac people also in conversation with that, because there's sort of the same era, Germany, obviously different, but like, they're definitely like, in conversation. So I'm excited about that.

Denne Michele Norris 35:45

Maybe I should read that now too, and then I can just both bring, bring both books to the conversation. Michael is amazing. He's a friend too.

Traci Thomas 35:54

Michael's amazing. I met Michael at LA Times Book Festival, and was like, oh, sorry, I love you so much. Yeah, he's a real you know, I just fall in love with people so easily. I just fall in love with like, I don't you read someone's book and you like it, and then you're like, Oh, well, I guess we have to be best friends. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

Denne Michele Norris 36:11

Well, he's very he's very lovable, he's very lovable, he's adorable, He's smart, he's kind, he's just, he's great. And he's so tall, he's so tall, he's so tall. We love we love tall. Not that we don't like our short kings, but we love it. Yeah, we love operator.

Traci Thomas 36:27

But like with the internet, you never know how tall someone's gonna be. So like, when someone is either short or tall, I'm always feel like, it's like, congratulations, you're the father. It's like, I had no idea this was gonna happen to me?

Denne Michele Norris 36:42

Can I tell you a fun story about Michael that is not writing really? Yes, of course. So we were hanging out at a party last December, and I was dating a guy from Ohio. I live in New York. I was dating this guy from Ohio, and I have you heard about the recent controversy with Laverne Cox, where she was she talked about dating a cop who was Maga. He was blonde haired, blue eyed, yes, yes. Okay, yes. So she and she didn't know that he was Maga until well into the relationship. It didn't, it didn't come up. And while I have my own thoughts about that, what I will also say is that it is true that conservative men like trans women, because I found myself dating a man who, a few months in i He would say a few things, and I was like, Wait a second, how did this guy vote? What's the situation? I don't know. I was talking to Michael about this at a party, and Michael was like, Can we look it up for you? I can look it up because he's an investigative reporter, right? So he looked it up for me. The guy was not Maga. He hadn't voted, period, and we did end, but yes, immediately at that party, yeah, I was, I was like, saying homework. But the point is, Michael. Michael was like, if you ever need me to look you up a man, I will do it. And I was just like, Michael's a real one. He's a real one.

Traci Thomas 37:57

Okay, before we talk about your books, we have to talk about the most controversial thing that you just said, You are a maga person. Do you listen to Ezra Klein?

Denne Michele Norris 38:06

Wait? What do you mean if wait--

Traci Thomas 38:09

Because I say Maga, I feel like it is Maga, but Ezra Klein has been floating Maga around, and I feel like he has infected the brains of geniuses around us, because so many people are saying Maga now, and I am a hard line Maga. I think it's Maga.

Denne Michele Norris 38:28

I have listened to a few Ezra Klein episodes.

Traci Thomas 38:32

Okay, so you came to this by on your own. Maga, on your own.

Denne Michele Norris 38:36

Yeah, I don't think I've ever met so this Okay, so this is the thing. I'm from Ohio, and we have we speak phonetically, sort of perfectly, like if you want to be a newscaster, get someone from Cleveland, Ohio, because we don't really have any kind of accent. But the one thing that we sometimes do do is we'll be a little bit nasal. And so for me, I Maga. I can't say Maga because to me, in my head, it sounds very nasal. And I don't want to sound like--

Traci Thomas 39:04

Okay, fair.

Denne Michele Norris 39:05

Which is ridiculous. It's ridiculous,

Traci Thomas 39:07

But it's like, Maga is the worst. So like saying it nasally is like, it's Maga, you know, like, it's just yuck. But also, the thing about Maga is that then you can call the people, well, this is just mean, but you can be like, maggots, right? That's like, the nickname, but moggets don't work.

Denne Michele Norris 39:24

That's true. I do want to say maggots. Like, there are times.

Traci Thomas 39:29

Yeah, I do want to say it sometimes. Anyways, it's just this is my like, like, sometimes I'll listen to Ezra Klein, who, you know, I don't, I haven't talked about him publicly on this podcast, but he's not my favorite. But sometimes I will listen, and every time he says Maga, then I immediately have to send voice notes to like, six of my friends being like, why is he saying Maga? Why is he trying to ruin my life like this? Is why I can't listen to this show. But I think I feel like some people say Maga because of him, because he says it all the time, and he says it like so as recliner like Maga. Why? Manga, and I'm like, Ezra, get a life. Anyways.

Denne Michele Norris 40:04

Say I've listened to fewer than five episodes. In general. I feel like we need to be listening to a little bit less of Ezra Klein.

Traci Thomas 40:14

I feel the same way I have, I have, I need to do a whole Ezra Klein. I feel like there are things in the world that I dislike that I sort of talk about casually, like in my stories, or like might come up, like Hamilton, for example, and I feel like I just need to sit down and do an hour long episode on like, all of these things that I just like, don't like. But people always ask me follow up questions about because I know people can be like, Why don't you like Ezra Klein, Mama? Like Ezra Klein? Blah, blah, I don't like him for a lot of like, legitimate reasons, I think. And also I don't like him because he says, Maga, I think that's fair. Like, I think I can dislike people for a myriad of reasons. Yes, you can, but I agree. I think we could do less Ezra Klein.

Denne Michele Norris 40:57

Like he's challenges. I do think he's hot, but that's neither here nor there. When it comes to...

Traci Thomas 41:03

I think he can be hot, but now that he knows he's hot, now that he's had this, like, glow up, I just, it's, it's ick, go me.

Denne Michele Norris 41:12

I just, yeah, yeah. He has the ick. He has the ick.

Traci Thomas 41:15

And then he's not even, like, one of my professional nemeses or anything. I just like, he's someone that I just like, love to be like, Ew about.

Denne Michele Norris 41:24

And it's fair. I, you know, I'm a New Yorker and his wife wrote stupid things about Zorhan Mamdani. I just, I'm not, so I'm not. Yeah, it's--

Traci Thomas 41:36

Okay, we're out on him. We're out on him. So, okay, so that means you've got to start saying Maga, even if you don't like the nasal because you don't want people to think that you're an Ezra Klein stand, because that's what I thought. That's you don't want it's really hot. You gotta go fun. That's actually kind of, I like, I like, lean into it. Okay, we had to do that, people. Sorry, but we needed to. We needed to get it off our chest, two books you love. One book you hate.

Denne Michele Norris 42:05

Oh my gosh. Okay, two books I love are The Bluest Eye by twin Carson Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout. One book I hate, Catcher in the Rye I hate. Oh me too. I hate that book.

Traci Thomas 42:21

Okay, I'm not sure, but I am sure the first two books you picked were both Oprah book club picks. But did she also do Catcher in the Rye? Or am I making that up? I'm not sure about Catcher in the Rye. I know she did the other two.

Denne Michele Norris 42:36

But she did she well, she's done Elizabeth start a couple of times.

Traci Thomas 42:39

She did all of Kittredge, and she started with Bluest Eye. That was her first ever.

Denne Michele Norris 42:44

I'm not sure. I'm not sure about, I mean, I just know Catcher in the Rye from high school, and it's like that book that everyone knows that I think.

Traci Thomas 42:51

It was not an Oprah pick. I know, I know. I mean, I know it from I know it from that too. I hate it. I didn't read it till after high school, and I think it was too late for me to read that book. I was like, 22 and I was like, no bitch. I don't this boy. No, thank you.

Denne Michele Norris 43:05

He needs to get his butt whooped. What he needs?

Traci Thomas 43:09

What kind of reader Are you like? Do you read multiple books at once? Do you like deep dive into things? Do you like to read all sorts of stuff? Are there genres that you love or hate, like, what is who are you as a reader?

Denne Michele Norris 43:23

So that is a good question. I used to read multiple books at once, and now I what it's similar to how I work as a writer, where I have typically one book that I'm really keyed in on, and then I have others that are floating around that I may have started, but like this one has sort of emerged, and so that's the one I'm focused on. So I feel like I read one book at a time, even though I'm always reading multiple things. I most, I will say I'm mostly when it comes to fictional literary reader, but I do like myself some romance, okay? And the occasional, the occasional, like, well, I like more literary thriller, I would say, than actual thriller, but I would say that I tend to stick to the more literary work. I don't know why. It just tends to be.

Traci Thomas 44:10

Do you read nonfiction?

Denne Michele Norris 44:13

Yes, but and with nonfiction, I'm more expansive in what I will read, but I don't read as much of it. But I love an essay collection. I love a memoir. I do like a celebrity memoir. Um, those I usually listen to, though I don't read them.

Traci Thomas 44:29

I listen, yeah, I never, I'll never read a celebrity memoir again. Once I got into audio books, I was like, I'll never take my precious actual page time for Will Smith, you know, correct, like, happy to give you 12 hours of listening, cannot give you 12 minutes of reading? Cannot give you 12 seconds?

Denne Michele Norris 44:48

Yeah, they're great for a long drive. They're great for if you're walking your dog a and I do, like, like, some I think are, like, genuinely, really good books. Or do you have any favorites? Yeah, my. Favorite celebrity memoir is Carrie Washington's thick rib and water. I love. I never read that one. Okay? I think it's I think it's spectacular, I think. And I could tell, as I was listening to it, I was like, I think she wrote this herself. I don't think she's a ghost writer. And then she confirmed it in a Vogue interview that she wrote it herself, and there was something about the the craft and the way that she like. Did you know Most celebrity memoirs just move in a linear, totally linear way, chronologically? And she doesn't do that. She does a lot. She did a lot of stuff in that book with the narrative that, like I did in my novel, for example. And so I was like, This feels like a writer's mind at work, not a ghost writer who's writing it for someone else. Yeah, it's really good.

Traci Thomas 45:40

I love that. What's the last great book you read?

Denne Michele Norris 45:45

I really, really loved Home Seeking by Carissa Chen, which came out in January of this year. Chris is a friend of mine from Sarah Lawrence. We've known each other for a long time, but I just loved the intricacy of that love story. I loved the fact that it spanned multiple, two continents in 40 years. Like the ambition of that narrative was amazing, and I thought she delivered it really beautifully. So that's one I will if I can just give one more. I also loved what I that I read recently, the novel skin and bones by Renee Watson, which I just think she's such a beautiful writer. And that book, more people should have been, should have heard about that book, and should have been talking about that book, because I think it's incredible, and it deals with fat phobia in just a way that I think very few literary books do. So that is really a spectacular book as well.

Traci Thomas 46:35

Okay, I love that. Okay, how about what are you reading right now?

Denne Michele Norris 46:41

So right now, listen, I just started Sula, which I've never read before. So okay, yeah, so that's really exciting. I still, there's still Toni Morrison that I haven't read, and that's one of them too. So that's kind of my focus right now I'm reading that. I think I'm reading it in part because I think it will help me with my future project. But you know, anytime I read Toni Morrison, it feels like everything kind of shuts down, and I just get in place as I'm reading, and it's like the best thing ever. So I I try not to rush through it, and I try not to read like this is why I space out reading her work.

Traci Thomas 47:14

It's a comeback to me. Which other ones do you still have to read?

Denne Michele Norris 47:18

I still have to read Song of Solomon, and I still have to read tar baby. I think I've read everything else. Oh, okay, read everything. I've read all of her fiction, but I have not read, for example, the collection of, like, her speeches. I haven't read that. Yeah, I did read rest of the teeth, which is really like a short story, but yeah, so there's still stuff to read.

Traci Thomas 47:39

Yeah, Sula Sula and Song of Solomon are two. Are my two favorite. I would say they're really different. I love Sula. Sula is my favorite. I haven't read them all either. I still have three, but I have paradise home and love those are the three I have left of the novels.

Denne Michele Norris 47:58

I also have jazz. I haven't read jazz yet. Oh, we did that last year for book club.

Traci Thomas 48:04

We've done all the ones you haven't read for book club. Oh my gosh. So they're all They're all there for you, and they're really fun, like they're really good ones. Okay, what is a book that you love to recommend to other people?

Denne Michele Norris 48:18

I love to recommend the novel Ghana must go by Tay selas. I know that it came out in 2013 I think it was a New York Times best seller, but I also felt like it was published sort of quietly, but I wasn't in the industry so much then. But it's a beautiful, beautiful novel. It's the only novel that she's written, and her writing, her sentence level writing will be reminiscent of Arundhati Roy's, the god of small things. Okay, so if you love that sort of lyrical, rhythmic, like sort of complex sentences, kind of writing, I think you'll, you'll love it. It's a story of four siblings dealing with grief and all of their own personal things coming together around the death of their father. It's, I just think, an incredible book.

Traci Thomas 49:04

I'm reading my first Arundhati Roy right now. I'm listening to Mother Mary comes to me her new her new memoir. I wasn't gonna read it because I didn't think that I cared. And then an author that I love, who I won't say, who was like, it's amazing. And then someone else text me about it, and they were like, well, I just love her editor. And I said, Well, who's her editor? And they said, Kathy Belden. And I said, What? Kathy Belden, who's Kisa, and Jasmine's at like, you know, she's my favorite. She's my favorite. And I was like, fuck it. And then it was on the Kirkus list, and I was like, You know what? I'm starting it. So I started it yesterday, and I'm, I'm into it. It's very beautifully written. The writing is very like, beautiful I have been extremely out on memoir this year, so I'm struggling with it. I just like, I usually love memoir. I have DNF at least, or I have not finished, like, at least 10 memoirs this year. I. Think I've only finished like, five, and two of them were celebrity memoirs.

Denne Michele Norris 50:03

Well, you know, your your tastes go through shifts and the times. Yeah, that's what you are craving a lot of the time. Yeah. You know, she's incredible. So I will read it, but I'm not like, I like, when her second novel was announced, I like, went apeshit. I am excited about this memoir, and I will get to it, but it's like, an I will get to it kind of thing.

Traci Thomas 50:24

Yeah, yeah. I'm waiting because people that I love and trust are like, it's amazing. So I'm giving it, like, more space than I would another memoir, and I'm liking it, but I'm not like, I'm just like, waiting. I'm trying not to be my normal judgy self normally I would just, like, I hate memoir. I'm not reading it, so I'm trying, you know, I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to be nice. It's really hard for me. Um, what's the last really good book that somebody else recommended to you?

Denne Michele Norris 50:50

Fish Tales by Nettie Jones. You

Traci Thomas 50:52

liked it? I Yeah, oh, Disha, of course, yeah.

Denne Michele Norris 50:56

I was like, Oh my God. And then I'd forgotten about it, and then she just, like, handed it to me, and I was like, Oh, right. And so, yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 51:04

What's your ideal reading setup, location, time of day, beverages, snacks, temperature, props, costumes. Talk about it.

Denne Michele Norris 51:13

Any time of day is fine for reading. I like to be in like, a really comfortable chair or my couch, like either one. I don't like to be in bed. I like to be in a couch or chair, so I'm sitting a little bit more upright, and I will have a beverage. I will always have a glass of ice cold water, like super, super ice cold. And then I will either have a glass of wine or a coffee or a latte, depending on when during the day it is. And I do need snacks around. My favorite for reading is popcorn.

Traci Thomas 51:43

I love just a plain popcorn with, like a salt or do you like a flavored popcorn,

Denne Michele Norris 51:48

either cheese popcorn or very buttered or kettle, any, I guess. Yeah, all the flavors are good. The other thing I like almonds, like so like honey roasted almonds, or whatever those, if those are around, those are the two things that I will, just like constantly, put in my mouth.

Traci Thomas 52:04

You passed the test. I love this. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Denne Michele Norris 52:09

I have many in so in New York, my favorite bookstore is probably Strand. I just love how big it is and how you can buy new things and use things. There's a bookstore in a small town called Kent Connecticut, called House of books that I really love, and whenever I visit my friends who live there, whenever I visit, I always go to that bookstore. There's a bookstore in Cleveland Heights that I grew up going to a tiny independent bookstore next to a diner that I loved, that I still love, and it's called Max paperback Max backs, or max paperback Max books, I think. And it's this tiny hole in the wall bookstore with used books and new books. And it's been around for decades. And it used to be, you know, transphobia side. It's where I used to buy the Harry Potters. I would go there at midnight when Harry Potter was being published, when I was a kid, and I would buy the Harry Potter's there. So I love that place.

Traci Thomas 53:03

What is your relationship now to the Harry Potters.

Denne Michele Norris 53:06

I love them. I cannot read them, and I certainly cannot stand their their author, but I recognize that it's complicated. There's a lot of people in the Harry Potter world who disavowed her. And I also think there's maybe some stuff going on with her that, like, isn't completely intentional. I just I, but I think the whole thing is sad. So I can't read them. Like, if I had a child, I don't plan on having I don't expect that I'll have a kid. But if I had a kid, I don't know that I would expose them to it, which in the past, I would have felt like that was fine to do.

Traci Thomas 53:44

Yeah, yeah, totally. What's the last book that made you laugh?

Denne Michele Norris 53:49

Um, this might sound weird, but I recently listened to the Britney Spears memoir and that there were some funny moents that made me laugh.

Traci Thomas 54:00

I love that one. What's the last book that made you cry?

Denne Michele Norris 54:05

Also, the Britney Spears memoir?

Traci Thomas 54:07

Oh, okay, Brittany, double trouble. What's the last book that where you felt like you learned a lot?

Denne Michele Norris 54:15

So I haven't finished it yet, but I already feel like I'm learning. I've also started reading Black Moses by Caleb Gale, Oh, yeah. And I, I'm also reading it a little bit for research purposes, because I don't know a lot of like, fact about like, these all black towns and any of that. So that book is teaching me a lot, and it's really good. The writing is really good. That's, I highly recommend that book.

Traci Thomas 54:43

I really love, Caleb. He's awesome. Okay, we're almost out of time, so I'm gonna ask you just two more questions. One is, is there any book that you are embarrassed that you still have never read?

Denne Michele Norris 54:55

Lolita?

Traci Thomas 54:57

Okay, we did that this year for book club, so if you read it, you. And listen to us talk about it. I'd never read it until this year. Last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

Denne Michele Norris 55:11

Something about learning his ABCs? No, like, it's like a picture book, like he needs it broken down, maybe, like the Berenstein Bears, okay? Like, I don't expect him to be able to take, take in anything more complex, but we, we've got to get the comprehension up.

Traci Thomas 55:28

Yes. We've got to do what your mother said. Someone has to read to him 10 times a day until he can read.

Denne Michele Norris 55:35

Yes, yeah, yes. Then we'll deal with something more complex.

Traci Thomas 55:39

Then we'll do more. Okay, everybody. This has been a conversation with the wonderful Denne Michele Norris. Denne will be back on September 24 to read our book club pick with us. It is The Lilac People by Milo Todd. It is historical fiction about trans people in the lead up to and during World War Two in Nazi Germany. I can't wait to read it. I can't wait for you to come back and talk to us about it. Denne, you are amazing people go get when the harvest comes, and both and thank you. Thank you and everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks.

Traci Thomas 56:23

All right. Y'all thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Denne Michele Norris for joining the show. Denne will be back on Wednesday, September 24 for the Stacks Book Club, conversation around The Lilac People by Milo Todd, if you love the show, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks pack and you can subscribe to my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, make sure you are subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
Next

Ep. 386 Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer — The Stacks Book Club (Alexis Madrigal)