Ep. 388 A Community in Book Form with Maggie Smith and Saeed Jones

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

Maggie Smith and Saeed Jones join us this week on the Stacks to discuss their anthology, The People’s Project: Poems, Essays, and Art for Looking Forward. With original work from twenty-seven authors exploring hope in times of difficulty, Maggie and Saeed discuss what inspired the book and how they knew who should contribute. We also spend some time sharing what keeps us from falling into despair before giving superlatives to the different works in The People’s Project.

For the month of September, the Stacks Book Club will be reading The Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, September 24th with Denne Michele Norris returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Saeed Jones 0:00

You know what's interesting yesterday is the beginning of the semester this week, and I had my first class meeting yesterday, and it was like I could barely get to sleep afterwards, like after spending two and a half hours with these brilliant, excited, emerging writers who are grounded and who want to use their writing to help people that they're deeply invested in it, and I was just like, Oh, I knew I liked teaching, but I think I really underestimated how much it grounds me in reality.

Maggie Smith 0:29

Teaching does that for me too, or even just spending time with my kids like it sounds so trite, but just spending time with young people who are aware of what is going on in the world, but don't yet have this sort of like nihilistic viewpoint that it cannot be solved.

Traci Thomas 0:55

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and in today's episode, I am joined by Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith. They're here to discuss their new book. It's called the People's Project: Poems, eEssays and Art for Looking Forward. This book is a curated collection from Maggie and Saeed that includes the work of 27 writers that creates a community in book format. The book is intended to be a space where we can come together and try to hold on to what is important in these trying times. Today, Maggie said, and I talk about how they came to make this collection, why they feel it's important. And I make them hand out a few superlatives to the pieces in this collection. The Stacks Book Club Pick for September is The Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 24 with Denne Michelle Norris. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you like this podcast and you want more bookish content and community, consider joining The Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter, Unstacked on substack. Each of these places offers some amazing perks, like bonus episodes, community conversation, book club, meetups and more. If you're interested in supporting the show, if you're interested in getting a lot more bookish takes, go to tracithomas.substack.com, to join the newsletter and patreon.com/thestacks to check out the Stacks Pack. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with the wonderful Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith.

Traci Thomas 2:34

Okay, everybody i i have like a grin on my face because I just feel like this is one of the books of the year, emotionally like it is the book that we've all sort of been waiting for. And to get to have both Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith on the podcast to talk about the people's project, feels sort of like a little bit of like bragging. Like I'm just like, yeah, babe, I have them. We're gonna talk. So both of you, welcome to the Stacks!

Saeed Jones 3:01

Hi.

Maggie Smith 3:02

Oh, my goodness, thanks for having us.

Traci Thomas 3:05

I'm so excited. I mean, said it's been here a few times. Maggie, you're a stacks virgin, but you know you're gonna pop that cherry. Girl, it's a little early in the day.

Maggie Smith 3:19

I'm here for it. I'm here it, Traci.

Saeed Jones 3:21

It's for my world's colliding. Traci has become such a great friend over the years via the podcast, and I always see her when I'm in LA and of course, Maggie is like, my dear friend. So this is it's funny. I was like, one of those, okay, we're doing an interview wake up site. And then I was like, oh, it's Traci. Okay.

Maggie Smith 3:39

We're hanging with friends.

Traci Thomas 3:42

And I, you know, I've read both of your other work, so it's also kind of fun to get to come to this like project together. And to, I know you all are friends, but to think of you all now as collaborators is really exciting. And before we even get to that, will one of you do the honors of sort of 30 seconds or so telling us what The People's Project is.

Maggie Smith 4:03

Maybe it makes sense to start really quickly with just the Genesis Sure, which is the book really came about organically as a series of conversations via phone, text and voice memo that said and I were having like, leading up to the election last year and and in the immediate aftermath of the election, and really just trying to sort out, like, okay, so what now? How do we move forward through this time, and what? What do we do? And so actually, our shared editor, Jenny shoe at Washington Square press, after seeing some of our conversation unfold on the internet, said, I think there's a book here. I think this is a bigger conversation than just the conversation between the two of you. Like, why don't we widen this? Am I remembering this correctly, Saeed?

Saeed Jones 4:59

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I have, you know, I had just moved to Cambridge in last September, and so, yeah, in those months, you know, I think part of it was, you know, the rhythm of living in a new place. And so, you know, you're checking in on your friends, you know, you know, in my case, back in Columbus, where Maggie still lives.

Maggie Smith 5:18

Yeah, I missed you. Yeah, we you left me in a red state.

Saeed Jones 5:23

I was like, ooh, girl, so, yeah, so, you know, you know, so I was texting and we were just in touch anyway. But yeah, I remember it went from just like, Oh, I miss you and oh, you know, I wish we were at harvest having pizza and our favorite cocktails. And then I just have these memories of walking back and forth between my apartment and campus, and the texts and the voice memo started getting more and more earnest. Like it just we really were. It was just like, what's the plan? What are we going to do? I remember, for example, after the election. And everyone goes through this in the United States every election year, Thanksgiving comes barreling at you. And, you know, given, you know, you're kind of like, okay, so what do I want to do? Am I going to do this business as usual? Do I even want to see people who voted against my life, against my children's futures, you know? And so it just there was so much energy. And I know we all had it. And Jin issue is such a joy to work with. What how fortunate we are just to have an editor we trust and who you know is observant, because we kind of had our heads down, and she was like, I think this is, yeah, this is, this is a project. This is a project. That's where it started.

Traci Thomas 6:35

I'm such a fan of Jenny's. I did not know Jenny by name, but I discovered that Jenny is the editor of, like, all my faves. And now I know Jenny by name, because that's how it happens for me with editors. Once, I sort of am like, Oh, I'm noticing a trend, and I'm reading the acknowledgements and I track it, and I'm like, because she does Tiana Clark, absolutely, yeah. Also did the show this year. I'm like, all the poets who have come on are by way of Jenny. So shout out to Jenny. But okay, so let me go back now. We have the origin. What is this? What is this book that people are? What is this project?

Saeed Jones 7:10

Well, we call it a community and book form. It is an anthology featuring 27 writers, poets. We have some graphic artists as well. We sent them some prompts when we realized we wanted to do this book and and generally it was, you know, in a moment like this, and really the era, because we started thinking, This isn't just about the election. This isn't just about Project 2025, let's think like, the next 50 years. And so we asked writers, you know, what is some wisdom that you're drawing from? It can come from your ancestors. It can come from your own experiences. It can come from maybe an exchange, you know, like Maggie and I'm having, I'm thinking of like EULA bis, like she's like, everyone should have a friend that studies fascism, you know, like, what? What are you drawing from to to move forward? And that was it. And then we just started reaching out, and people just said, Yes, I can do it. Or no. Fortunately, almost everyone we have said yes, yeah. And they had six weeks, and they didn't tell us what they were going to write. So we kind of it was, it was, I mean, it really was like, and Mike and I talked about this so much, it was like, we just reached out to writers and artists that we would reach out to anyway, you know, that we would say, can we go to dinner? Girl, we gotta, we gotta figure this out, you know, and that that's how the book came together.

Traci Thomas 8:40

Are the people who are in the in here? Are they collectively your friends, or are they? Some of them are, like, Saeed's people, and some of them are Maggie's people, and some are both?

Maggie Smith 8:48

Yeah, there's a Venn diagram, like, I think some some of them, you were like, oh, I want to reach out to these people. And some of them I knew and could have reached out to, and some of them I didn't know, but I'm a fan of as a reader. And I was like, yeah, if you can talk to that person, that would be great, because I would be cold emailing that person, and you can text them, right, and probably vice versa. And then Jenny had a few contacts that she was like, I'd love to include this voice. And I was like, I don't know her, so if you could make that ask, that would be amazing. And so between the three of us and a Google Doc, we just kind of thought like, who, whose voices do we need to hear from right now? Like, who else, who else would I love to have on a group chat? Just like to tell me something that's going to make today or this week or this month or like, the next 30 minutes slightly more bearable, because at the time when we were pulling this together, I mean, I realized too we were we were asking people to move incredibly quickly and to be really nimble with their thinking and feeling on paper, at a time when a. Lot of us couldn't get out of bed without a lot of effort.

Saeed Jones 10:04

Yeah. In fact, I just remembered that, you know, I'm and I called it like lovingly bullying people, like, from my time as a culture editor, I'm just like, Marlon, you're going to do this right, you know, right? But at the time, I was in Bennington, Vermont, when we were first reaching out to to, you know, to possible contributors, and it was when you and I had our conversation about Toni Morrison, oh yes, and her thoughts on the philosophy of goodness, which we did because we wanted it to come out the day of the inauguration, right? Like, so, so again. I mean, there's, there's real synergy here. I mean, it's really, this book was really birthed out of just how we were living. That sense of, I know that if I just stand here and take it on my own, I'm not going to last for very long, you know. And, and, you know, the three of us, we are smart people, smart, deeply empathetic, deeply read people. But I think it's fair to say, in the last few years, it's become very common to feel like I don't know enough, all the things, all the wisdom that I have, that I have been using to get me to this point in my life. I gotta call in some new reserves, you know. And so I think that's a just a pretty shared feeling right now.

Maggie Smith 11:22

Oh 100%. Like, where are the where are the resources that I just do not have, and I know they're out there, and there might be just two steps away or two people away from me.

Traci Thomas 11:32

Yeah, yeah, okay, I want to say a few things. One is, thank you for including me as a smart person. Truly an honor.

Saeed Jones 11:41

You are.

Traci Thomas 11:41

I mean, I'll take it, but, like, also, if anyone's listening and is like, maybe I wouldn't include her there. You're also right for people who are at home, who have not read the book yet. I'm just going to do a quick perusal of some of the people who appear as contributors, who are also friends of this podcast, because it, I mean, when I saw the list, I was like, Oh, I know them. So, so Alexander Chee, we did his book for book club. Obviously, we talked about Tiana Clark, Kiese Layman, Ashley C Ford, I'm just quickly looking through, but so, so many, I mean, Holla, Saeed, Mira, Jacob, Imani Perry. I mean, it's just, it's a who's who of the stacks community, but also it now has become a list of who do I need to have on the podcast? Yes, after reading the book, I'm like, Okay, let me just move this to the post it that's like potential guests for the next year. So thank you for that. And I think said to your point that you were making about like, kind of feeling like, I can't do this alone, or that I have. I only have so much that I have, and I need more. The way that your introduction ends is no way forward, but through together, as it should be. And I just feel like, if that's not sort of the heart and soul of this, of this piece, I don't know what is, and it immediately goes into an essay from Alexander Chee that is so good.

Saeed Jones 13:13

We literally talk about it every day.

Maggie Smith 13:15

Every day. I'm just like, how do I I can't get through the last two paragraphs of that essay ever without just openly weeping. It doesn't matter what I'm doing.

Traci Thomas 13:25

I just didn't know that you could do that. Like, I just didn't know that was possible. And it's like two pages, it's nothing, it's like five words. And you're like, wait, barely two pages. It's barely two pages. And I mean, I will be really frank with the audience, because I think that my listeners know me, and I went into this book being like, I'm gonna read this because Saeed is my friend. And like, it's really short, and I'm gonna check and I like, Jenny, I'm gonna just check it out. And Maggie, I had read your memoir, I think, last year, two years ago, two years ago, and I was like, yeah. I was like, I like the memoir, like, I'm gonna check it out. But this is gonna kind of be, like, cutesy and corny, and I'm kind of just gonna be like, Oh, okay, like we need to work together. And like times are tough or whatever, like, whatever those things are that feel rushed, and like speaking to a moment. And I read that first essay, I immediately, I think, text you said? And was like, What the fuck. And then I got, like, I got a little deeper in, I got to another essay, and I was like, Oh say, this one's like, really phenomenal. And then I got to the end of the book, and I think I sent you a note, and was like, unfortunately, it's quite good. I just know how a lot of these things happen. And, like, it's no shade to those books that are like, super timely, because we do need things in the moment that speak to the moment that maybe don't have legs in a month, or maybe don't feel like complete or they just feel a little bit rushed, or they feel like they're just scraping the surface. And we do need those things. And I read them, you know, like I will read. Yeah, I will read Kamala Harris' 107 Days, even though I don't think it's going to be...

Saeed Jones 15:06

Yeah, it's like the it's like the topical book, or the topical...yeah.

Traci Thomas 15:10

Sure. And this is not that. I mean, it is, but I feel like there is a depth to this book and a depth to the work that when I went back and reread the introduction, I was like, Sure, in 50 years, we're probably going to have a president that that that introduction speaks to, because you don't actually name him. You say, like, this President, this moment. But like, the the texts, the writing, I mean, Mira Jacobs, hers, is just so, I mean, oh, goosebumps, right? And like, like, there's just so many phenomenal pieces in here that are of this moment, but not for only this moment. So I guess the question has a long lead up is, how did you either prompt or protect the work against feeling too urgent. Or two of 2024, 2025 did, as editors, did you have to do anything to make sure that it wasn't cutesy, trite?

Saeed Jones 16:15

I know what you mean. Um, well, you know, part of it is, I've, I've been a I worked as an executive culture editor for Buzzfeed for some time, you know, in one of my previous lives. And so I learned both, you know, how to assign something that needed to hit that moment. Can you get it to me this evening? You know, I remember election night, 2016 Isaac Fitzgerald, my friend, was the books editor, I was the culture editor. And by 9pm we were just sitting there in the in the newsroom, while it was still going on with our laptops. And I remember texting, actually, or emailing mirror Jacob to be, like, can you, could you write about, you know, what it is to be, you know, a mother, you know, in this moment. So I know, like, I think part of it is over the years. And like, like, Mira actually is a great example. I think it's like, I've built this Rolodex in my head of people that I just know I can trust, both because I've read their work, but also I've broken bread with them, like I said in the introduction. And I think, you know, so I think our like, really, the main editorial curation was who we reached out to to be honest.

Maggie Smith 17:21

I was gonna say the same thing. We trusted the contributors. Yeah. I mean, there's no way that any of those people would have given us something that we couldn't use. Yeah, and almost as is, because that's the the level that they're writing and thinking at. So I think even just coming up on that Google Doc with the list of people we wanted to hear from, I mean, it's, maybe it's sort of naive, but I kind of felt like, well, this it can't be bad, because no one is like, these are amazing writers. Like, I want to read this book. Forget, if my name was on the cover, I would want to read this book always.

Saeed Jones 18:01

And, and, I guess, yeah, the other thing I'd say is, I remember, like, with the prompts, we were, you know, in terms of the letter, we were very intentional, and that's why it was pivotal that we shifted our thinking of, this is not going to be a risk like, you know, Maggie nice texts were often very much about Project 2025, specifically, right? Because it's just such a and now we see that we were right. It's just such a, so clear a roadmap of where they were taking us, even though all these people were gaslighting us, acting like it wasn't, wasn't like a factor. It drives me crazy. But by the time we wrote to the contributors, we kind of took like you said like, we don't. We didn't mention Trump. We didn't mention project 2025 we mentioned specifically, like this moment, but 50 years ahead. So I think that that did help. But I will admit, I will admit, I was like, this is going to be good, because we've reached out to talented artists. And these people do not. You know, Imani Perry has never have asked.

Traci Thomas 18:59

She's never ran a bad place, a writing process. I'm sure the postage she put her kids lunch were like the greatest mom notes in the history of her.

Saeed Jones 19:10

You know what I mean, like hearsay, layman, you know, never have steps. But for me, and I know you, for you, it was reading Alexander Chee essay, but for me, it was actually when we got the Table of Contents. That was the first thing we got, before we even got to see the work. That was the first time I cried and and I just because you can see the range of you're like, Whoa, they're hitting it. And they were prescient. I mean, you know, kiss a layman wrote that piece about children's programming that was written in January. It was well before they were talking about PBS and all of that, that actually was not a part of the conversation, you know, so and so that was when I realized, I was like, this is going to be nice and this will be good. I don't do anything, you know. Like I said, we don't have step but I will say that when we got. To read the material. I was staggered. It like transitioned into something else.

Traci Thomas 20:06

Yeah, I feel like you posted the I know exactly where I was when you posted the Table of Contents. I was in Lake Tahoe at Reno. I was going into a Wendy's with a friend of the podcast, Sarah Hildreth, because we had just done like a retreat in Tahoe. We were getting ready to get on the airplane, and you posted it. And I was like, Holy shit, there it's, it's gonna be better than I thought, okay, I sort of, you know, whatever, but Whoa. But then, like, I think kiss. I just called you kiss honor. I mean two of my faves. I think you know, for me, as I was reading this, Alexander chewy, as I said, was amazing. But I think what really like impacted me was there were, there were writers who I'd never heard of, or didn't know at all, who had pieces that I was just like, Yes, please. I think I hope I'm saying this, right? Karitha Mitchell?

Saeed Jones 21:02

Yes.

Maggie Smith 21:03

Oh yes, yeah.

Traci Thomas 21:04

The Know Your Place Aggression?

Saeed Jones 21:07

That is so useful.

Traci Thomas 21:08

I know I cut you off with that one.

Saeed Jones 21:08

And you know, yeah, you read that particularly as a black woman, and you're like, Oh, I've been waiting for this language. And again, caritha, we met because she was a neighbor of ours and Columbus, that's right. And someone put us a mutual friend, put us in touch. And I'm so, you know, I and I remember we met the first time at her for pizza. That's how I met this person. And now she actually lives here in Boston. She teaches at Boston University. So, I mean quite literally, these are just people I would have gone to caritha and, you know, like you see the New York Times headline about more than 300,000 black women, you know, losing their jobs, and it's like, know your place aggression, it's right there.

Traci Thomas 21:43

Okay, can I ask you this question? Then here? So in the same way that project 2025, was sort of this roadmap for what they're doing, and they, you know, the gaslighting all that, but obviously it's what they're doing. We knew they were gonna do this. They told us they were gonna do it. You know, when people show you who they are, believe them, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what I find interesting about this book, knowing the timeline, knowing that it started as seeds in 2024 up and around the election, and it is in my hands, finished copy in September 2025 and then reading it and being like, oh, because when I did, when I was reading this, I do think, like the PBS stuff was actively happening when I was reading, you know, my little galley, or whatever. And, like, there is some sort of prescience in what is in this book, right? Like, I read their, know, your place aggression, art piece before the piece in The New York Times came out about the 300,000 black women. So I guess, like, the question is, how did you know what needed? Like, I know you knew who you wanted, but did you feel like in curating that list, there were things that needed to be talked about, because you felt like you could see it coming. Is that how you kind of picked who you needed? Like, okay, we need kareetha, because she's probably going to talk about being a black woman and, like, that's important to this. Or was it like, as much of a surprise to you as the as the pieces came in and you were reading them, and then the news was breaking after knowing what was in here?

Maggie Smith 23:16

I mean, I think it was a mix, okay, you know, like, I remember wanting to reach out to Abby Maxwell specifically because I had read her memoir about raising a trans child. And I was like, We need Yeah, to hear from Abby Maxwell. Like, we need to hear from a from a parent of a trans child going into this situation. I remember like, talking about approaching Chase Strangio and thinking, like, is there any way that he would write something for this? I mean, there were definitely people. We thought, like, I know this person could speak to this, but we're not actually going to give them direction, sure. Like, we just solicited them and said, write what you want.

Traci Thomas 23:56

Because we're such bad teachers. That's such a teacher move. I'm not going to tell you what to write.

Maggie Smith 24:01

I'm not gonna tell you. There's no homework, but whatever.

Traci Thomas 24:02

But, like, just, you know, whatever you're feeling like, these are just open prompts. Yeah.

Maggie Smith 24:07

I mean, it was an open prompt, but isn't it also true? Like, I think some of the prescience comes that, like, we know in our bodies, like, what is coming sometimes before it happens, you know, like, you can, sort of like get the temperature read on where a thing is going and what might be coming next, and especially if, if you're going to be one of those people, is particularly affected by that shift. And I feel like we were all kind of in different ways, getting those kind of, like temperature reads right. And it's been really interesting to see the material that came in because we did not direct the content at all, and people really chose things that were, like, the hottest, I think to them.

Traci Thomas 24:50

Yeah. I mean, I think also, like, part of it is, I mean, said, I know you and I are both this. I don't know this about you, or not, Maggie, but, like, a lot of this is also just the history. Right? Like, the writing's on the wall, if you know anything about American history, or, like, the history of human beings. So I think some of it is, like, everything old is new again. And like...

Maggie Smith 25:12

Here we go.

Traci Thomas 25:12

It's gonna come back around.

Maggie Smith 25:15

Yeah, worst groundhog day ever.

Saeed Jones 25:17

Yeah that's, that's a good point. I mean, when I think about, I mean, it's such a diverse range of writers and interests and experiences, but every single one of these writers is deeply grounded in history, right? Joy, Harjo, you know what I mean, like every single person, you know? I mean, again, to think of like someone like key essay, you know, the history of the state of Mississippi is just such a huge part of his personal canon. So in a way, it was just kind of like inviting people to a dinner party and you know, they're gonna vibe. But the other thing I would say is this isn't day one for us with Trump and so, and to your earlier point about, like, the trite book, and then this actually did come up, I will say the I think the sales team at one point was like, Can we put resistance on the cover? And I was like, in a car, and I was like, Absolutely not. We may have back channeled immediately, immediately, no, no, because yeah. And this happens in different you know, for different reasons, different eras, but I know what, like, where we were talking about that kind of topical art. And this was true for books for God, the the staged readings I went to in 2017 where you were just like, Oh my God. Remember, there was, like a production of Julius Caesar, where they, like, made Caesar look like Trump, you know, like, so, so that kind of what hashtag, welcome to the resistance. You know, a lot of that, that type of topical art was because in 2017 We were stunned, you know, the average person was just fully, you know, blasted out of, you know, expectations. But now it was, this is different. This was like, what, what is I interviewed Amani about black, the black and blues, her beautiful new book, a finalist for the Kirkus prize, rightfully so. And I just remember, I was asking her about this era, and she said, I'm not surprised, but I'm horrified, yeah, and I think that was it. It was like people who were like, Well, we, you know, like, if you understand this country's indigenous history, if you are like, Jill, you know, if you have an experience being undocumented, if you have a trans kid, you know, if you're disabled, you know where this goes. And so I think that also informed this sense of like, like 2016 era. Everyone was just shocked and trying to describe what we were seeing in real time. Now I feel it is the artists and the writers expectation that we're helping people look forward.

Traci Thomas 27:43

Okay, we have to take a quick break, but I want to talk about surprise a little bit when we come back. Okay, we're back. I have this is, I'm just asking you two, because you're both smart, wonderful people, and I have you here, and you have to answer my questions for the next but one of the things, I think, said, Maybe we talked about this when we did the goodness conversation. I can't remember, but I have talked about this before. There is this performance, I think, of people who feel like saying that you are surprised about something is somehow maybe embarrassing, or that, like you are there for not paying attention, or naive, or something like that. And I feel like it really started popping off as like this thing that people would be like, Well, I'm not surprised, right? Or I don't know why you're surprised. I don't know why you're and I feel like, in like, 2020 with all the Black Lives Matter stuff, it sort of became this refrain, like, Well, I'm not surprised by this, but like, as if, like, I know everything, and I'm just wondering what you all make of that. And to me, maybe I am naive. I'm always surprised. I'm always surprised that knowing what we know and knowing how history works, that we still are repeating things, that we still are doing things, and I don't feel shame about being surprised. And maybe part of it is what Imani said, is like, maybe I'm conflating surprise and horror, or surprise and terror, or just this idea of surprise as like this is happening and it's taking me off guard, as opposed to not seeing it. But I feel like I can be both surprised and also have seen it coming. And so I'm wondering sort of what, how you guys think about the surprise of some of the horror and terror of our lives in the world.

Maggie Smith 29:42

I mean, doesn't horrified necessarily assume surprise, shock, a jump, you know, like a jump scare, right? Is not a jump scare without the jump. And I don't think you can have you cannot be horrified by something. If you saw it coming, you just can't you can be disappointed, right? You can be let down, disgusted, frustrated, angry, you can feel a lot of negative things, but I feel like horrified in itself, includes the feeling of like, Are you kidding me? We should have known better. Like, didn't we learn our lesson about this? How are we back in this, like, loop again? I mean, I'm not ashamed of being horrified, I guess, like once I once I, I don't want to numb out to the point where everything just feels like, yeah, here we go again. Because then, then what?

Saeed Jones 30:39

Yeah. I mean one, I think, you know, of the three of us, I think I'm the most chronically online. I'll admit it, it's, you know, I don't know something. It's narrow. But, yeah, I'm living there. And you know, the reason I say that is I find that that I don't know why you're surprised. Response, you know, you share, you share a new story, or you find this, you know, 300,000 black women. Well, of course, to me, that is a specifically internet posture, because it's, it's people who aren't in dialog, they're not in conversation, they're they're performing, they're trying to out, you know, profound, you and so it's not really a conversation you would never, you know, like, if, again, I'm thinking, Could you imagine, you know, when Maggie, you know, is, like, after the election, and thinking about what this means, for example, reproductive justice. If I'd been like, Wow, no. Why you surprised? You know, like, Oh my God. You know, totally, you would never say that. So that's one thing. And then the other thing is, I mean, I am horrified. I am surprised. Because, like, yeah, it's I don't I, it would be scary to get to the point where I don't, like, I was thinking, I'm reading them while these forthcoming book about Toni Morrison, and she points out that in Morrison's philosophy, in the novels, it's disinterested, like the disinterested is when people get like, Charlie is disinterested, and that's when he rapes his daughter, Sula is disinterested, and that's where she wants her mother burn alive and doesn't even attempt to help. Like, for for Morrison, that is, like, the true evil and so, yeah. And then the other thing is, I think I used to think the word disappointed was like, I don't know, like, a limp, weak feeling. But I think when, when you're describing those moments of like, you see like that. I mean, I haven't stopped thinking about since that New York Times story, 300,000 it was 319,000 black women have lost their jobs in a five month period, and during the same period, 365,000 white men gained jobs. Right? It's just, it's a staggering statistic, when you think about those two and what it all means and why, and so for me, it's, it's profound disappointment, yeah, you know, because we know the history we understand, you know, the systemic inequities we understand. Black women are the last to get in, the first to get shoved out. But there's just something about, you know, you alligator Alcatraz, yeah, you know, it's just, you see that, and it's just like, a profound it makes me think, because they're talking about Morrison, you know, at the end of Sula, where she's just circles and circles of sorrow, that's what I think people are expressing. It's not naivete. It's just like, there's always another basement in hell. I didn't think we were going to get here, you know?

Traci Thomas 33:18

Right, right? I think, like, I mean, I have the surprise that I know better and still am surprised about what's happening, what's happening in Gaza. To me, that's the one where I'm just like, I am horrified, and I am genuinely surprised, like, when I see these news stories about these journalists and like, Israel says it was a Hamas camera. I'm genuinely like, how could you say something like, how are we letting this be said? But I think to your point about disappointment, and I do think we talked about this Saeed. Is that part of, like, the election conversation? And again, this might be a chronically online thing, but I think it's also a response to 2016 is that people are preemptively disappointed, or preemptively deciding this is not possible and there's no hope because they don't want to be disappointed later. And I'm like, No babe, you got to lean into the hope, because if you're right, if you're right, and this all blows up in everyone's faces, you might as well have believed in something for 30 minutes before you're depressed. Like, what are you get out of being right about something terrible? I that's the one for me where I'm just like, I can't live like that. Like, I am going to believe that Kamala Harris was going to be president until somebody calls it. Like, if there's a path forward, I'm always gonna believe in the path forward, and then we'll reroute. But I find the like, the performance of being defeated, so upsetting, so upsetting. And I feel like in the book that isn't there, which I appreciate.

Maggie Smith 34:55

No, I don't think there's any like I would, I would call that like self. Protective, self fulfilling, or nihilism or pessimism, or just it's that self protective impulse. It's like, you can't surprise me, you can't catch me off guard. I know what's up. I like and also like, I'm weirdly immune, yeah, to all of this. I can't be hurt by it, because I'm not making myself like vulnerable. Hope is vulnerable, right? Like, once you get your don't get your hopes up, right? Because what's the what happens when you get your hopes up, then you just get completely obliterated if you're disappointed. And so this idea that you just live with a very low baseline expectation for human behavior so that you're not disappointed, is no way to live. I agree with you.

Traci Thomas 35:47

Is there like a practice that either of you do to not fall into those traps?

Maggie Smith 35:59

Look at this flat look.

Traci Thomas 36:01

For the first time, all three of us are silent.

Maggie Smith 36:04

And like a practice against cynicism.

Saeed Jones 36:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I guess the one I'm gonna answer your question, but the one other thing I would say is I also think for not all, but some people, I do think it's a trauma response that I do try, at times, to to empathize. I mean, so, but we haven't even talked about the pandemic, so many things have happened, you know. And, and let's just say, the last five years that I see sometimes people, I'm like, You're not even talking to me right now. This is a, you know. And, I mean, you're in a, in a world, you know, screen, there's a screen, and I and I, and I'm like, I hope you get out of it, because you it's like, like, Y'all both said, I can't, I can't live that way for long. You can feel that way. I get it. We have our moments. You can feel that way Absolutely, but you can't live that way for long. I believe that. You know, it's interesting. Yesterday, it is the beginning of the semester this week here at Harvard, and I had my first class meeting yesterday, and wow, it was like, I could barely get to sleep afterwards, like, like last night, and I was, I was texting my friend Isaac. I was like, I forgot the flow of energy, like, not just like in class, but afterwards, after spending two and a half hours with these brilliant, brilliant, excited, emerging writers who are grounded and who want to use their writing to to help people that they're deeply invested in it. And I just Yeah, I feel differently than I felt yesterday. And so I was, I was I was yeah, I left, and I was immediately sending kind of like, like, with Maggie. I was sending my friend Isaac a voice memo. And I was just like, you know, I, I, I think in this is my second year teaching this class, it was giving me an opportunity to have more perspective on it. And I was just like, Oh, I knew I liked teaching, but I think I really underestimated how much it grounds me in reality. It is, it is so, I mean, it's the same reason Mackie and I are writers, you know. And I was reading an interview this morning with Arun radhi Roy, and she was like, I have to do I have to do this, right? I spent because she's like, the only way I've survived is by thinking and thinking and thinking about all of these issues, and I have to get it out there. And so I think whether you are, you know, I think writing can do it for you, and I think teaching, I think helping people, it gets you out of your head. You know when, when I have felt the closest to that really scary kind of bereft, missed or or that kind of pessimism or nihilism, I can almost guarantee it is a day that I haven't left my apartment. Yep, I've been on my phone, I've been on the computer. I've been reading and listening to the news all day long without doing something for someone else. Those are the days that that's when I'm I'm the person with the the screen in front of, you know, myself.

Maggie Smith 38:49

Yeah, right. Which is why, like, a book that we are thinking about is sort of a way to have a little community in your pocket. Because it's so small, you can just put it in your you can just put it in your coat pocket.

Saeed Jones 39:01

It feels like contraband.

Maggie Smith 39:03

It does! And then you can sort of carry around this like little Greek chorus of like badass voices telling you things you need to hear. And you could just open it to anywhere and flip and read two pages in the middle of the day, and hopefully have, like maybe a little wind in your sails. I mean, for me, it's like teaching does that for me too, or even just spending time with my kids, like it sounds so trite, but just spending time with young people who are aware of what is going on in the world, but don't yet have this sort of like nihilistic viewpoint that it cannot be solved.

Saeed Jones 39:42

Yeah, it's like, I mean, you know, we're in a group text with with our editor, Jenny shoe for the book, and and Maggie's son, Rhett, kicked the first goal of his soccer game yesterday, and she said he immediately ran off the field to come give her a hug. And she's like, sending us pictures. And I. Is, you know, I'm not a parent, my nephew, my nephew, that is my nephew, baby. And I think, yeah, I get emotional because, you know, you know, like I said, the three of us, like we are, in many ways, well equipped for this life, you know. And I think a lot about, you know, how else do I say? Because I know what I was sent here to, do you know, and I'm doing it, and I'm as horrified and disappointed I am equipped and and I have legions of sisters and fam that I can reach out to in those moments. But I just, I think about kids, and I and kids are smart and they are observant. And if you don't think they aren't aware of what's going on around here, you know, don't underestimate how how perceptive they are. But they don't. They don't have the tools yet. They don't have the experiences and the wisdom. And so I just, yeah, I just, it really gets to me, and it just reminds me why it's so important that we do books like this and continue to do this work as much for ourselves as for the least of us. You know, the elderly, the disabled, the undocumented, the children who are just so much more vulnerable right now. We have to, I want to keep living, but most importantly, when I'm not here, I want people to continue to live, and I think children remind us of that.

Traci Thomas 41:32

You know? I mean, I feel like I have a lot of teachers who listen in librarians, and I do feel like this is something that should be in schools, maybe not taught in schools, but like, you know, they give you books at the beginning of the school year, it's like, just take this and like, play with this all year. Because I do think so many young people are lucky to have families that care about and foster their abilities to critically think and to feel protected in the world, but also so many children do not. And I think in the ways that you've given me community with this book, I think that that is available to anyone who you know opens the pages and reads from it. This is sort of a hard shift, and this is maybe sort of illegal to do, but I love to be illegal.

Maggie Smith 42:17

I love to be free into whatever it is.

Traci Thomas 42:19

Well, I'm gonna make you guys name some names. We're doing some superlatives for this work. Okay, so you're gonna have to answer some. And I know, you know, I know we're not playing favorites, but we are.

Maggie Smith 42:32

Oh, not superlatives. You know what I got my senior year of high school?

Traci Thomas 42:36

What'd you get?

Maggie Smith 42:37

Dreamiest eyes?

Traci Thomas 42:39

Okay, but you do have--

Saeed Jones 42:39

Dreamy eyes.

Maggie Smith 42:39

But there was, like, a most unique and, like a funny one, like humorous, and I was, like, most dramatic male.

Traci Thomas 42:47

I got drama queen. But can I tell you why I was mad because I didn't get most talented, which I'm--

Saeed Jones 42:54

I wanted most fashionable.

Traci Thomas 42:56

But I also was in the running for best physique, and I didn't get that, oh, I would have liked that, because at one point I could have been, like, I was hot. Sorry.

Maggie Smith 43:05

Runner up, best physique is still pretty good,

Traci Thomas 43:08

Pretty good, but it's not the yearbook.

Maggie Smith 43:10

I was not in the running for that. Like, it was not gonna happen.

Traci Thomas 43:15

But, like, I don't care about high school at all. Like, not a big deal.

Saeed Jones 43:18

Yeah, we're totally over it.

Traci Thomas 43:21

Yeah, that's why we're doing superlatives, because who cares about high school?

Maggie Smith 43:25

Because who cares.

Traci Thomas 43:25

Okay, my superlative is most tear jerking.

Maggie Smith 43:30

Alexander Chee. Alexander Chee.

Saeed Jones 43:33

I want to, I keep meaning to to print out the end of that essay, and I literally want to put it above my desk. It's just so moving, even the title anyway.

Traci Thomas 43:43

Yeah, okay, most surprising?

Maggie Smith 43:49

Hmm, you know, Marlon's piece really surprised me. Like, I was, like, I didn't know we were gonna talk about clothes, yeah? Like, the topic surprised me. Like, I mean, I knew whatever he sent was going to be genius and, like, elegant as hell, because he is. But like that that surprised me, and it surprised me what my emotional...

Saeed Jones 44:12

...response to it was.

Maggie Smith 44:13

Response to it was.

Saeed Jones 44:13

Yeah, I so that Marla SPS did not surprise me, because

Maggie Smith 44:18

you're not surprised.

Saeed Jones 44:23

He's another friend that I'm texting with all day, and I've known for years at this point, and I just got to see him a couple of weeks ago. He used to be a creative director, I don't know if you knew that, and he's always talking about the visual like he's, I mean, he's an artist, like he's, he's, he's painting and drawing in his apartment, his office is so cool seeing the like sketches and everything. So he's he's always thinking about the visual. So I didn't know exactly how he was going to approach it, but I felt that it was going to be some aspect of the design of this moment. So that's that didn't surprise me. I think for me, it's Sam saxes poem. It feels. Like, he invented a new form, you know, it feels like the first time I read, like, Jericho Brown's duplex. And I was like, Oh my gosh. And now you see so many people, you know, doing their own duplexes. I want to write my own, you know, scores like him. So that was just, I was like, I like, like, you said it's like, it was just so fun to invite these people to the party, you know, the dinner party of this book, and I was like, Oh, girl, I didn't know you could cook that. That's incredible, you know, thank you. You know,

Traci Thomas 45:26

I love that. What about most likely to return to over and over?

Maggie Smith 45:35

That's hard. Oh, my God. That is really hard. You know, the one that I have found myself rereading, though, is EULAs

Traci Thomas 45:45

the fashion rewriting one.

Maggie Smith 45:46

Yeah, reading that just just to, like, spend more time inside of it and and to learn from it, but also to see how it moves. I've that's been one that I've been going back to,

Saeed Jones 45:59

oh gosh, EULA would definitely be one of those for me. But I think I'd say, Jason Brian Silverstein, look ahead, look back. About healthcare. I mean, you know, I teach in the medical school. I'm thinking, and again, it kind of, kind of what you're talking about. Surprise, you know, I'm just, I'm often teaching and working with people who are already working in healthcare or want to, and I'm learning so much, and I'm just constantly shook. You know about how it all follows through? I remember like, you know, there always It'll be just like, in passing, we were like, walking across the medical school campus, and he pointed to one of the hospital buildings, and he said, say there are more. There are like, 65 radiologists, or something like that, who work on that floor of this hospital. And that is more. And I can't remember the exact country. It was a West African country. He was like, that is more that are in the entire country, you know? And in fact, I think you said, there, oh, Sierra Leone, there was, like, there was one, you know, and I just, and I was like, radiologist, like, to get X ray, like, you know, like, such a, such a basic and fundamental aspect of healthcare. And I'd never thought about, yeah, like, the equity, in that way, health equity is also, like, literally, what's available to you. Not even, can you pay for it. Do you have the insurance? Is there someone in your country who can give you X rays right now? Whoa, you know. So yeah, that that I keep going back to it, because it's, I think it's only going to become more important.

Traci Thomas 47:33

I have two more this one, I think is the hardest. Just, oh God, just today, just as of today. Okay? Okay.

Maggie Smith 47:41

Favorite, not a chance.

Traci Thomas 47:46

I thought it might be illegal. I thought I'd try I thought I'd try it.

Saeed Jones 47:50

Oh god, I think I'll say Chase Jane GIOS essay, yeah, one, just because I saw literally last night, a headline that the Trump administration is trying, is talking about trying to make it illegal for trans people to own guns. Yeah, give me a break. That's what I mean, like that. But not white men like disappointment, you know, like that. You're just like, what

Traci Thomas 48:17

like that's literally surprising, yeah, that's the depths of the

Saeed Jones 48:21

depravity and the hatred. It's just like I didn't even know y'all had it in you. Is how I feel. But it's, it's rereading it recently, just really, it's been on my mind a great deal. Brandon Tina and Matthew Shepard were both killed within a couple of years of each other. And, you know, I remember, you know, I certainly remember boys don't cry the movie, which I can never watch again, but the way he brings all of that together and the simplicity of a haircut, yeah, yeah, it both felt. And this is the thing. It's like, you know, we're reading this book against our bridges of distance. You know, Maggie Smith is a white mother living in the Midwest. I'm a black, gay man living on the East Coast. You know, we care about each other, but we're also very different. And trace is a very different person living a very different lives. As a trans man, as a lawyer, I think he's a parent as well. And but I just, I, I felt it. I got I was like, there's so much here that I get. And it's, of course, it's a cliche. But this book, I think, because the soulfulness that each writer brings is the same, you know. So, so even if you know you're like, I'm not undocumented, I have no idea what that's like, or I'm not disabled, I have no like the soul is there and it feels like it meets you right where you are, you know.

Traci Thomas 49:41

Okay, here's the last one. Maggie, you do have to answer this one.

Speaker 1 49:43

It's not that hard. Oh yeah, you punted

Traci Thomas 49:48

first time here. But like, if you try it again with me, Maggie, you're done.

Saeed Jones 49:54

One of the reasons I always love and fear i. Listening to Traci is and why I love coming the show. She will talk about books she does not like. She will, she will do, you know, like, I think so much of the you know, we're in a desert patient. We're in a desert of, like, real criticism in this country, in this moment, right now. You know, everything's just fawning. So I know you go there, but you've been very nice. Well, I

Traci Thomas 50:21

really like the book. If I didn't like it, I'd be talking about it in a different way. That's true. You know, I always say I My job is to my listeners, and the most important relationship for me is that my listeners trust me and that they believe me, and that they know what I when I say certain words, or when I you talk about certain things, they can read between the lines. And so, you know, I really like this book, so it was easy for me. But here's the last one. And I think this one's really easy. If you could have added one person, and they would have said yes, or even if you don't know them, who is the one person you would love to have had a piece in here from,

Maggie Smith 51:00

oh, I know, who did we ask to do it? But she wasn't allowed.

Saeed Jones 51:06

Oh, yeah, justice. Ketanji Jackson Brown, oh, she sent us her or someone in her office. Sense a very nice rejection, because ethically, she couldn't. But we asked her, you know, would you be interested in, like, writing the introduction? That would have been

Maggie Smith 51:22

incredible. That would have been

Traci Thomas 51:24

I have, can I tell you who mine is? And I'm sure you

Saeed Jones 51:26

probably should have published, we should have published her rejection note, because that was like, I felt like the I felt like the subtext was, we were written between many of these other justices are doing wildly unethical shit, but not me.

Traci Thomas 51:42

I just got here, so I need to play, play along. Keep it cute. Yeah, yeah. Mine, and I'm my guess is that you probably reached out to this person, but mine, as with everything that happens in the world, I am always wanting to hear from Traci McMillan cottom. Oh yes, absolutely. She is always the voice that I am turning to, whether it's I, like, I'm waiting for her to write about Kate Middleton's blonde hair, right? Like, I'm just like, oh, this happened. Like, what is Traci? My first thought when I saw the picture and it was like, What is Kate tries out blonde hair? It's not like, oh, that's clearly a wig, because this woman has cancer, unless you probably lost her. It's literally, what does Tressie think about this

Maggie Smith 52:21

choice, like go to Instagram profile talking about male stories, the

Saeed Jones 52:27

male hurdle, male loneliness amazing. It was incredible. She was like, we don't have a male loneliness epidemic. We have a male violence

Traci Thomas 52:33

epidemic. Yes, and I'm like, I don't need I know that she has real work to do, but what I need to have only voice memos to send to me at every turn.

Maggie Smith 52:44

I know you have a job, but could you also just be my personal person? Can you just teach

Traci Thomas 52:50

me? Why is this? What does the data say? Can you sociology professor me for everything?

Maggie Smith 52:58

I guess you just have cam, like, instead of cameo, you know, like, just have basically, like, unfettered access on demand app, drop

Saeed Jones 53:07

in, drop in. Yeah, anywhere she goes, I'm willing to go. I guess, the only person I had, and it was because, literally, I was reading a New York Times interview with her this morning. I'm looking forward to her new book, Arundhati.

Traci Thomas 53:17

Roy Elizabeth Gilbert,

Saeed Jones 53:22

see, that's the book. I was afraid this book was going to be like, that is what I know.

Maggie Smith 53:29

I'm scared. I'm not reading because you, because you read the excerpt.

Traci Thomas 53:34

Yeah, I just terrified. I need to know. I feel like I need to

Saeed Jones 53:37

actually imagine we text afterward, we go get

Maggie Smith 53:39

into the tea afterwards. I was like, we're gonna wait till the mics off.

Saeed Jones 53:44

Mine would be Edward honey, right? Because, you know, she, I was just reading, like, when she thinks about what's going on in the United States, she's thinking about through the lens. So she's like, Y'all are just now getting hit with the type of authoritarianism we've been dealing with in India for much longer, and social babies, yeah. So, so again, like, that sense of, like, this isn't day one for me. I think that would have been a really interesting perspective to bring to the book. Because, yeah, I mean, America is still, we're very young country, and we're in many ways, we are green and and, you know, the thing about American exceptionalism, it functions in so many ways. And so there is, you know, I know we talked about the surprise thing, and it's so interesting. That it's become a real point of this conversation. But there is, like, an American sentiment, because we, nationally, you know, are so isolationist, and don't tend to think of ourselves as globally as we should. And so I think a lot of us are kind of looking around like, Huh, what? How did this happen? But of course, you know, that's why it's so great to have, you know, EULA talking about the history of fascism in France, for example, and the resistance to it, and, yeah, knowing about what's going on in countries like India, I think again, it's, it's terrifying to see the similarities. But she's also. So in her essays and in her books, giving us a pathway, you know, she's showing us how far we are down this track, and hopefully we can get off of it. That's an important perspective.

Traci Thomas 55:09

Yeah, okay, we're out of time. I didn't get to do snacks and spelling and whatever, but I have to do this last one, which is, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Maggie Smith 55:20

Langston Hughes my father.

Traci Thomas 55:23

T Okay, okay, that's a good answer. Everyone's got a good answer. Everyone wins. Okay. Thank you both so much for being here. Everyone listening. The book is so good, you can get it now. Wherever you get your books, it is called the People's project. It is, it's great. Thank you both so much for being here, and we will see you in the stacks. All right.

Traci Thomas 55:49

Y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to both say Jones and Maggie Smith for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Holly Rice for making this interview possible. Our September book club pick is the Lilac People by Milo Todd, and we will discuss the book on Wednesday, September 24 with Denne Michelle Norris. If you love the show, if you want inside access to it, if you want some perks head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and you can subscribe to my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review for more from the Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and you check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas

Wy'Kia Frelot
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Ep. 387 Full-Time Literary with Denne Michele Norris