Ep. 389 The Resort Is a Microcosm of Society with Cleyvis Natera

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

This week on the Stacks, we’re talking literary suspense with Cleyvis Natera and her newest book, The Grand Paloma Resort, which takes place at a luxury resort in the Dominican Republic. Cleyvis explains what drew her to writing about the tourism industry, why she wanted to include the history of the Dominican Republic in her “beach read,” and how she explored sex work in its many forms throughout the book.

The Stacks Book Club pick for September is The Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, September 24th with Denne Michele Norris.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Cleyvis Natera 0:00

I'm always interested in thinking about how people become complicit in the systems that dehumanize them, just as quickly as you know, the people that are in power now in power of the government, have said, like, diversity bad. And you see how quickly every single university, every single major corporation, bent the knee. It took very little with this book, like, I certainly wanted to, like, expose that and in some ways, and not, like, a judgy way, because I think that makes for boring fiction. So I sound more interested in being like, what is more fascinating than the person who actually becomes complicit?

Traci Thomas 0:46

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by Cleyvis Natera. She is an essayist, critic and novelist who you might know from her debut novel, Neruda on the Park, and today she is here to discuss her newest book, The Grand Paloma Resort. This literary suspense novel is set in the Dominican Republic and revolves around two sisters who work at a high end luxury resort called the Grand Paloma. The book follows them as disaster strikes and they try to figure out what they're going to do. I absolutely love this book, and was thrilled to talk to Cleyvis today about how she thought about writing in the literary suspense genre, why it was important for her to include the history of the Dominican Republic and Haiti, and what's so interesting to her about a workplace novel, The Stacks Book Club pick for September is The Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 24 with Denne Michelle Norris. Reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes if you're listening to this podcast, if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining The Stacks Pack on patreon@patreon.com/thestacks and getting many more of my hot takes on books, pop culture, snacks, everything by heading to my newsletter called Unstacked, which you can find at tracithomas.substack.com in both of those places, you'll also get monthly bonus episodes, plus your support makes it possible for me to make this podcast every single week free to all. So if you love the show, if you want to support the work that I do alongside my amazing team, head to patreon.com/the stacks and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, all right, now it's time for my conversation with the absolutely wonderful Cleyvis Natera.

Traci Thomas 2:46

Alright, everybody I i feel like this has been years in the making, and I'm so excited to welcome to the show an author that I absolutely adore, both on the page and off. Her name is Cleyvis Natera, her new book is called the Grand Paloma Resort. Cleyvis, welcome to the Stacks.

Cleyvis Natera 3:07

So Traci, you think this is years in the making. This is years in the making. For me, I've been listening to your podcast forever. I am such a Stan. I love you so much. I love you for having me.

Traci Thomas 3:19

I love you. So I had to tell people originally, I wasn't sure if I was gonna have Cleyvis on, because I just did an event with her in LA, and we had so much fun at the event. But the problem was we didn't answer like half the questions I wrote. And so I said, Why don't you come on the podcast so we can do the rest of my plan? So here she is. I the reason I was I was like, Oh, we're not gonna have we're gonna have we're gonna have the same conversation for the podcast. But guess what? We're not gonna have the same conversations. We've got plenty to cover today.

Speaker 1 3:47

Yes, and I have to say that it was a strategic move on my part, but it was not like we're just such a great time at Reparations Club in LA that I feel like we could just talk for hours and hours and hours.

Traci Thomas 3:59

I agree we're going to try to keep this to one hour. We'll see how we do. Okay, let's just start where we always start, which is like, in 30 seconds or so. Can you just tell folks what The Grand Paloma Resort is about?

Cleyvis Natera 4:11

Yes. So The Grand Paloma Resort is a novel that takes place over the course of one week. It is centrally concerned with two sisters, Laura and Elena, who are employees at this luxury resort in the Dominican Republic. Over the course of one week, we're exposed to kind of the underbelly of tourism and what it means to actually be a worker in one of these very high end luxury spaces in the Caribbean.

Traci Thomas 4:37

Okay, I want to just start here, which is, what was it about luxury resort that you wanted to write about? Like, what were you seeing in that space in your mind that was ripe for a novel?

Cleyvis Natera 4:52

Yes, I mean, I think there's just so much there. I was born in the Dominican Republic, and even though I lived. Until I was 10 years old and traveled there, you know, as I was growing up, which has never had a lot of money. So, you know, the fact of the matter is that, as I was growing up, I never had access to what I would consider to be the most beautiful resources of my own country. And so, you know, I graduated from college, I went to graduate school, I was working a full time corporate job for many years, and that actually enabled me to travel back to my country as a tourist. And so one of the most intriguing parts of those trips for me was that, you know, very often, and this happens everywhere I go, whether it's the Caribbean or Latin America or Europe or Asia whenever I travel. And right now, I'm, you know, a substantially different class than I was as I was growing up in Dr and whenever I travel and I'm in these luxury spaces, it very often happens that, like people who are in my class don't see me. They either confuse me for service or a worker, or they just like, literally, I become invisible. And so over the years, I just feel like I've had access to being on the inside and the outside of the luxury experience. And so I just think that for me, like a resort is the microcosm of society. When I think about like the way that class shows up, the way that race shows up, the way that gender plays into, kind of the hierarchies that exist. It's just like too, too delicious of the like a space as a setting for a novel, and I thought it would make for a great place to put these kind of messy characters.

Traci Thomas 6:33

I definitely made for a good place for these messy characters, which we're going to get to. But I want to ask you, and we talked about this a little bit at the event, but I want to ask you more on a personal level, what is it like for you, a person who is from the Dominican Republic, as you said, grew up, you know, did not have a lot. Finally, as you become an adult, you sort of shift through class. You come up to a place where you're able to go back to the Dominican Republic as a tourist, sort of like as an outsider in some ways, but you're still an insider, because it is still, you know where you're from. What's that like, like visiting a place that you know in such a different way?

Cleyvis Natera 7:11

Well, I mean, I think what it has been like for me, it's been like really clarifying and illuminating. I mean, I think that there are just certain things that often, I think, as humans, we are trapped in, like, the reality of our own lived experience. And for me, what has happened as I've traveled back to the Dominican Republic is that I've become really conscious of, like, how life is different depending on your station in life. And I know that most of us think like, of course, when you are wealthy or you have more money, life is easier. But it isn't just about like, having access to nicer things. It's also like, on a scale of humanity, like, where do people consider you? Like, how are you treated? How are you perceived? And I think for me as as a Dominican person, and I'll say this, which further complicates it, like, I'm Afro Dominican. And so when I show up to these spaces, I very often I'm confronting a lot of the same racism and prejudices that you know black people in the diaspora confront all over the place. And so I also think that's really interesting, that when I go to those spaces, it isn't just like all the other tourists that might not perceive me as being someone in their in their class, but it's also like my own people who might just have too much familiarity or might treat me like crap just because they feel either entitled to it or they're just prejudices they might not be conscious of.

Traci Thomas 8:35

Yeah, and that there's like a complicated like, the complicating factor of being Afro Dominican is that when you're in the Dominican Republic, you're seen one way, and when you're in the States, you know, you're seen another way. Is that sort of part of it too?

Cleyvis Natera 8:47

Well, I mean, in the Dominican Republic, race really is so different. I mean, I know, like, you know, we've been dragged through the mud, and with this survey, you know, people who are Dominican, who don't consider themselves to be black, and who are, you know, obviously noticeably black. Yeah, there is something really interesting in the Dominican Republic. And I think people who have traveled there see it is that the gradation of race, you know, it's just really wide. And we have so many words for the for the person who is darker skinned. And the truth of the matter is that in the Dominican Republic, the underclass really are Haitian people. And so when you go to the Dominican Republic and you're around folks who are presenting as black, I am never surprised when people don't, you know, align themselves with a black diaspora. Because in the Dominican Republic you can have people who are like, as dark as Dominican Black gets, and then as light as white presenting who are married and they never would consider themselves to be like in an interracial marriage. You know, that's not right. People even think of it, right?

Traci Thomas 9:50

I mean, I'm asking these questions, not just because I'm curious, but also this is all in the book, which I think is really cool, because. Is, this is, you know, like a literary suspense novel or a thriller. You know, genre is a funny thing, but you've packed a lot of like, real shit into this book, including a ton of history of the Dominican Republic and Haiti, for people who don't know they share an island, yes, so that's why the two, you know, peep the to the Haitians and the Dominican what Dominicans? I said the Dominican Republicans, like, that's not right. The Haitians and the Dominicans have so much, you know, beef with one another, and there's so much like interpersonal stuff, because they share this, like space. But I want to know why, why you wanted to incorporate that history into this, like beach read in some ways.

Cleyvis Natera 10:45

Yeah. I mean, I first of all nerd alert for anybody who like loves books, who hopefully is everybody listening--

Traci Thomas 10:46

If you're listening, I hope you at least love, at least The Grand Paloma Resort, but maybe you like other books.

Cleyvis Natera 10:57

Declaring other books. But you know, it's so interesting because I feel like the starting point. And the real inspiration for this book came from Edwidge Danticat's The Farming of Bones, which is mentioned in the book. Yes, I mean, that is one of the epigraphs that I used to open the book. And so, you know, I was in my 20s when I first read the farming of bones by Edwidge Danticat. And this was eduticus, second book that she published. And the book is centrally concerned with amabelle, who is domestic worker in a home for rich Dominicans in the Dominican Republic. And during the book, the parsley massacre takes place, which is, you know, a genocidal event that happened in the Dominican Republic in 1937 and 10s of 1000s of Haitians were murdered at the mandate of the Dominican government. And so I'm in my 20s, I read this book, and it just kind of blew me away, because, first of all, I'm Dominican, and I had never heard about the parsley massacre, even though I have my grandparents had lived through that. My father was significantly older than my mom, and he had lived through it. I had aunts and I had, you know, great uncles and people in my family who certainly had lived through it, and I had never heard of it. But I also went to school through halfway through the fifth grade, and I had never learned about this massacre, and so learning about, like, such an important part of my own history through a novel to me, first of all, it like just really lit me up. Because at that point, I had been taking creative writing classes in undergrad, and I knew that eventually I wanted to be a writer. And I was like, oh my god, this is the power of literature that like the things that have been erased, whether purposefully, intentionally or not. Like fiction has this power to, like, give it life and like, archive it forever. So I was like, Thank you who I love, you know. And then, on the other hand, I was also thinking a lot about like, every time I would travel back to the Dominican Republic, you know, and I would go to the hotels and like, you cannot go to Punta Cana. There's like, different parts now that are being, you know, developed throughout the island. And I mean, the the people who are raising these incredible structures are Haitians, and they are the people that are being deported. They are the people that are being treated like shit in my country, you know. And so for me, it was really important to think about that book as, like, kind of like, the first step in a conversation that I felt like I started to have about the history of my country, and feeling like, Well, what do I have to say add to this conversation? Like, if my book is, you know, in a line of books that people read about Dominican and Haitian relationships, what is it that I have to contribute that is, like modern and that also feels timely and true to what the real situation is there today?

Traci Thomas 13:54

Yes, I love that. Okay, so this is sort of in the same world, which is like, this is a book a lot about power. We're at this resort. There's a lot of different people who are coming together, like this microcosm that you talked about. We've got, obviously, the tourists. We've got the workers who are sort of like low level everyday workers. We've got the mid management. We also have, like, the upper management that we kind of get to hear from. And then there's, of course, like, the company itself, which we don't like, we have representatives that we hear from, from the company, but, like, there's also this huge money making operation that's probably, like, somewhere in Houston or something, who knows. And and then we have the locals. We have the people who are not actually part of the Paloma, you know, industrial complex, but who are impacted by it. And throughout the book these different levels, there's a bunch of sex work that's happening. Different kinds of sex work happens. And obviously people, I am not going to spoil this book, so I have to be a little cagey with you about the details you kind of have. Just follow my train of thought. I'm not going to ruin the book for you, I promise. But just stick with me here. There's a lot of different sort of ways that sex work shows up in the book, and some of it is the ways in which I think many people might think about tourism and sex work, which is a guy goes off the resort looking for sex like there's a whole industry like that, but there's also these less explicit sex interactions that happen. And I'm curious like, what was that that you wanted to get into? Why include that in the book? What is interesting about presenting us with sex work in these ways? For you?

Cleyvis Natera 15:41

Yeah, I mean, so first of all, thank you for for touching it, because I've been having a lot of conversations with a lot of people during my book tour and in these podcasts. And I have to tell you, Traci, a lot of people don't want to touch it, and I think part of it is because people don't want to. Sometimes I think it's hard to, like, know how to talk about something that's so delicate. But I also think that there's like, this hesitancy still that lives within, like, proper or, I don't know, I don't even know what to call it. I feel like sometimes it just seems like very difficult for people to think about, like, these kind of uglier parts of it, but it felt to me, like, very important to touch it. I mean, it was the same way that I felt about not thinking or talking about the Haitian Dominican dynamic. To me, it seemed just it would be like the biggest missed opportunity, and then it would make the story almost untrue, you know, to not touch it. So the first thing that I was thinking about was, you know, I interviewed a lot of people that worked in hotels and resorts over the course of the last few years, and one of the things that became really clear to me when I talked to men was that men are kind of expected to please the tourists, and it's not a financial transaction. And so it made me think a lot about labor, you know, because the work is a workbook job, yeah, it's a labor novel. And I was thinking a lot about exploitation, of course, because the book is about power, and the other side of power, right, is exploitation. And I was thinking about, Oh, my goodness, like the fact that I'm talking to some of these men, and they just see it as a matter of course, like nobody's going to talk about it, but it's important for them to keep these tourists and especially these very wealthy women, happy. And I just thought that it was kind of a trip to think about sex work from the perspective of a man. And it's so interesting, Traci, because the other thing I didn't want to do was to have a male perspective, because I'm very committed to writing about women and from the perspective of women. And it seemed to me like, if I'm going to talk about power, like, what better way to talk about power in in really crazy power dynamics than to talk about sex and to talk about sex perspective of men. And I also feel like, which is all of us have become kind of numb to the fact that women suffer and that the sex trade disproportionately affects women and children, right? Like, I just think that people don't want to even see it as a crime very often when those kinds of stories are shown in fiction. And so I thought that there would be a freshness to the take Pablo, who is the character that we're talking about here? You learn very that's not a spoiler, because you learn in the first five pages that he's, you know, doing really improper and inappropriate behavior with these tourists. And I thought it was just really interesting to think about a young man who has really, you know, drank the Kool Aid like he believes in the structure. He believes in this job. He believes that his path to freedom and his path to a better life will absolutely be through this work. And you know, the company has created a really intricate way for people to like, have access to upward mobility. And although other people find it very suspicious and don't believe Pablo believes in it. And he feels like this is his shortcut. His shortcut is, you know, having sex. And I think it's really important to understand that he's not being paid for it. That's like, a very important, yeah.

Traci Thomas 19:15

I feel like, also, what's like, interesting about Pablo, and like, you know, he has a whole other job at the resort. He's not just like, the resort's not just like, we have a boy for you all to have sex with. Like, no, he's like, the bartender, and he like, does the fish, and he like, he's on the boat, and he's doing all these other things. And then there's also this sort of like, unstated expectation that he does this. But you said he's doing these really inappropriate things with guests. And I guess my question is, is it inappropriate to, like, I understand it's against the rules of the resort, technically, like they're saying, like, we don't want you have, like, consorting with the with the guests, but if it's consenting adults. Yeah, and is he consenting? I guess that's the question. It's like, there's this question of because I think it is sort of icky. But on the other side, I'm like, well, he's a grown man. He doesn't have to, but he feels like maybe he should. I don't know. I'm just curious about that piece.

Cleyvis Natera 20:14

I think that's a really interesting take. I have to be honest with you, because part of what I wanted to explore with Pablo is the fact that somebody, and you get a sense very early on the Pablo is quite good at the sex, like this is someone who knows how to put it down, and the women are for it, right? And so there's a part of me that was thinking a lot about how like, sex is just sexy, right? Like, and I wanted the book to have this kind of sense of sensuality to it, the seductiveness that comes and not just from the actual sexual acts, but also like the seduction of like corporate America, like, you know, because we understand very early on that Paloma enterprises, which is the the mother company, is an American company. So you know this, this book is very centrally concerned with this idea that, like, the reason why we're all working like a bunch of maniacs is because there's something that is very satisfying about being successful, and there's something that is very seductive about seeking to continue to be more and more successful. And to me, that whole like, kind of path, and like that. Journey for Pablo had to be very seductive, because that's what he's after. He's ambitious, and this is the way that he's going to get at it. So I didn't bring like, a judgment or a morality to it, because I actually do think that people, if you got it, flaunt it. If you got it, use it, you know. And for him, it has been working, except, you know that over the course of this one week, we do get to witness that line, and when the line is crossed, I want people to really think about that, like, at what point is consent impossible based on the power dynamics of the people involved, right?

Traci Thomas 21:58

I mean, so you said this is a book, a labor book, and it certainly is. I also think it's like, very clearly a power book. I guess power and labor go hand in hand, but you have this moment, which I flagged it the moment I read it. I keep thinking about it. I've been thinking about it a lot, actually, in relationship to Taylor Swift and her engagement and all of the stuff that's come out about, like Travis Kelce and his politics and the whole thing. But there's a moment where Laura, who's like our main one of our, I guess our, I would say she's the main, main sister. She's, she's middle management, she's, we're with her the majority of the book. But there's something that happens, and some of the guests get to, sort of like, do the right thing. And she says the moral high ground like they are able to exhibit, like the moral high ground that wealth affords. And I just, I think that is such an interesting and important point. And I just want to hear you talk about it a little bit, because I've been thinking about with Taylor Swift, but also with like brands in general, the way that brands are able to, or not able to, like, show up in moments. I think about it obviously, like, with Miss Rachel and Palestine and the genocide that's going on. Like, so I'm just curious what you what you think about it, just like, as a topic.

Cleyvis Natera 23:17

Yes, I mean, I think about this all the time, and I feel like one of the biggest moral I mean, I think that what has been exposed to us since the genocide in Palestine started is and I think of it as like going hand in hand for us with like, black lives matter, because what we have seen since 2020 and that's when I started writing this book. I have this really strong sense of an obligation to acknowledge that I don't know that I would have gotten as much money or even a book deal as quickly as I got it, had it not been for George Floyd being murdered like this. The United States was going through a reckoning, and it happened to be that my book was, was talking about gentrification, that's Neruda in the park, like, talking about gentrification, talking about, you know, and I'm always interested in thinking about how people become complicit in the systems that dehumanize them, like, that's what my first book was about. That's what my second book is about. And so I think what has been exposed to us, after looking at the 10s of 1000s of people that have been murdered at the hands of Israel, is that, oh, my god, the brands are spineless, right? Just as quickly as you know, the people that are in power now and in power of the government have said, like, diversity bad. And you see how quickly every single university, every single major corporation, bent the knee. It took very little. And, you know, I love that Roxane Gay talks about, you know, in her newsletter, I think it's really interesting that she very constantly is like, calling people to task because they are conceding and becoming complicit, like without even. Being an obligation without anyone even asking you. It's like they are going ahead and agreeing to do these things, like ahead of time. And so with this book, like, I certainly wanted to, like, expose that and in some ways, and not, like, a judgy way, because I think that makes for boring fiction. Like, I don't think social justice books are very interesting most of the time. Some more interested in being like, what is more fascinating than the person who actually becomes complicit like, to me, I think that's fascinating. Liz, you said it because I was just, you know, I laugh all the time, every time you show a picture of that woman with her like, flat boots. Just like, bring it, Traci, I'm here. But I also feel like there's something to me about just like, the timing. There's like, of course we know that, you know, dude has, like, some kind of endorsement that has just been announced, and it's like, and we know that because we've seen it happen. We've seen it happen across the board, the celebrities who like are so afraid to even say what's happening in Palestine is an atrocity. Every single one of us should be ashamed of ourselves that this is happening on our watch, right? And at the same time, you see people who just are not touching it, are not talking about it, and the reason they're not talking about it is for financial gain, right? And so like to me, that part of it is is never gonna get boring. To me to go out and talk about how we like this is what capitalism has done to all of us, right? Like it has enamored us. It has seduced us to a point where we're willing to like, forget our own humanity in order to get the paycheck in order to, like, continue to enjoy the privileges that come with with an easier life.

Traci Thomas 26:45

And I think, like, I think the part that I'm thinking about a lot is like, there's an expectation that people who have less are like, good, right, like that. They're like, morally pure, and they're gonna do the right thing, right? Like, it's like, it's like, oh, the noble, you know, homeless person or whatever. Like, these ideas that, like, if you're rich, you're you're bad. But I think that what's interesting about what you what you say in the book, the moral high ground that wealth affords, is that the opposite is actually true. You are so much safer to say something that is like, morally right, when you have money and you have the platform and you have the ability, and yet the expectation is that, like, of course, Taylor Swift's not gonna say anything. And it's like, wait a second, she's she's a billionaire, like, she's got more money than she would be able to spend. I don't know, someone does the math, and it's like, if you spend $100,000 a second, you still wouldn't, you know, live another 50 years. You still wouldn't spend all your money whatever. But it's just like the idea, the expectation that, like people of lower class, are supposed to be pure and good and hard working, and all of these things, however they're the first ones to be expended in these moments is, is really like, I don't know that's the part that I just think about all the time. It's like, it would be nothing for someone like Taylor Swift to say anything, right? Like, it would be nothing to her, even if she lost half of her fan base. She already is a billionaire. What does she need the money for? What? Like, the hoarding of the wealth and, like, the the inability, and this isn't just her, this is so many people. But it's like, you don't want to say anything, because you're worried you're going to lose opportunities. But what do you need the money for now? Like, at what point is the Is it enough? And we've we're in the system. We're like, it's never enough. If I had a billion dollars, do you know how fast this podcast would be shut down? It would be instant. You'd never hear my voice again, ever, I promise. Unless I knew you in real life, unless you had my phone number, I'd be off social media. I'd be off email. I would be like, find me on my island, babe. Like I don't have cell service. You have to fly to my island if you want to talk to me. And instead, we get people who are just like, constantly doubling down on horrible things so that they can make more money. Well, what do you need it for?

Cleyvis Natera 29:13

Yes, I mean, I feel like, again, it's just all of us are part of the same system. And I don't think that just because rich people are rich, and we're, you know, and I think it's also important to like, mention that, like, the grand Paloma resort really caters to like, the uber rich. So this isn't like your Punta Cana resort that, like you and I are going to, okay.

Traci Thomas 29:33

It's not the Club Med I went to as a child?

Cleyvis Natera 29:35

It's not my love. It is not.

Traci Thomas 29:37

Well, I was imagining the hot pink buildings. Okay, so allow me.

Cleyvis Natera 29:41

I think that's okay. I think it works. All of us have been in this dynamic where hopefully, I'm hoping that people who like travel back to the Dominican Republic or other places are looking around now through new eyes after reading this book. But I feel like all of us are part of this same like, you know what? What capitalism makes us do? That it makes us like, it's impossible to become satisfied. It's like, you know, you can be richer and have more money, because there's Elon right, and there's like, now there's like, Trump, right, and his family that are like, becoming billionaires, like, why? Because they exploited right, racism and classism and all these things. And so it's like the idea that people are going to be greedy is the point. I mean, that's the whole point. The point is that the more you have, the more you should have. And I mean, the last thing I'll say to this, because I think this question that that you're posing is just fascinating for me, and I love thinking about it, is that, you know, there was a point when I was working my corporate job and I was part of the, you know, I was in upper management in an insurance company. And one of the things that I learned through my own experience is that at a certain point you really do this, engage with, like, your moral fiber, like whatever moral compass we have. I think it's very easy through work to disengage, because somebody is paying you and it is your job. So there's, there was certain points where I felt like, you know, and what I had to do for the majority of the 20 years I worked in insurance, which is, do my job, there was like, nothing at any point where I felt like, oh, there's a line, and I'm crossing it. And then at a certain point, I took a job where we were outsourcing a lot of tasks, and we were laying off like hundreds of people that had worked loyal to this company for decades, and we were shutting down their office. And what I thought was really interesting is that this process of, like, outsourcing tasks to India was actually costing millions of dollars, and so we wouldn't realize a savings for like five years, but it was understood that, like when you started saving the money would be worth it, like laying off all these people. And I mean, I felt wrecked, because I know that from my own upbringing and my own mom's experience that, like some people, like, there's no net, no one is there catch you when you lose your job. Like the result of losing your job is catastrophic for certain people. But I did my job, you know, and I was excellent at it, you know. And I got, like, a great bonus that year, because I was so focused. And so there was something to me at a certain point, right? And I remember, like, during the worst of this, my son, Julian, was going through a failed bone marrow transplant. The second time we had to do it, I was laying people off constantly. And I just remember that, you know, there was this moment that I felt like it was so heartless, and it was like my boss at the time had asked me to give her a proposal, because I was really good at org redesign, and I had, like, a knack for efficiencies, and I had been licensed with project management degrees and like, different things. And so she had asked me to present to her, and this is so cold blooded, she asked me to present to her a version of the organization that eliminated my job. And at the time, like I honestly was sitting there, my kid was in the hospital recovering from, like, a second bone marrow transplant. He had almost died because he had a burst appendix during this. And the only person that knew was that boss, because, you know, I didn't want to tell people that my business. I'm pretty superstitious. So I also was, like, the first one failed. I don't want anyone to know about the second one. And, oh, my goodness, that woman asked me to put together this, this proposal that would eliminate my job. And I honestly sat there and did it, and I gave her, like, two really good options, and then I said to her, like, you're putting your own job at risk, because I was the second senior person to her, and I was like, if you take my level out, there's no reason for you to be a vice president like you would be flat and like you're this is not going to go the way you think. And I just remember her looking at me, thinking I was being self interested. But I feel like something broke in me through that interaction, because it was like she knew I was the one with the insurance in my in my family, because my husband was, you know, working a different kind of job. And so, anyway, so, like, there was something to me in that moment where I was like, oh, like, this is how it works. Like, my heartlessness, right? Like, I have developed a heartlessness when it right people off. And then when she said to me, like, lay yourself off, pretty much. And I did it. And, you know, it didn't come to be, like I was able to get transferred to another job. But I just remember like, going through that experience and thinking a lot about power dynamics and thinking a lot about like, who gets to take a high moral ground? Because even as I was thinking about how cold blooded it was that this woman did this to me, she was the breadwinner. Her husband wasn't working. She had three young children, so, you know, like, there was a part of me too, like, oh, like, it makes no sense to me that she's planning to do this, but there's like, a reason why she thought I would be, like, disposable at that moment. And so, you know, for me, like those years that I spent in corporate America, and the kinds of things that I did for the sake of the company and for the sake of my own higher bonus, really informed the way that I came at this, at this book, and especially when I was thinking about that scene with Laura, because Laura has been traumatized in her own life, and there's a part of her that also wants to inflict humiliation on people that she feels has wronged her, have wronged her, and I think that there's something satisfying about her too, flexing power against people. And so that whole thing that you said about, you know, I read so much Caribbean literature, and it makes me crazy that, like the poor people are always the people who are, like, morally superior, because that hasn't been my experience. I don't think anybody is morally superior when it comes to to these kind of power structures.

Traci Thomas 36:07

Right. Certainly no like blanketed class, like there are good people and there are bad people everywhere, all over the place. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back. Okay? We're back. I want to talk about, actually, like writing this book. I'm going to queue you up for something that you talked about at the event, because it was, like, my favorite thing you ever said. I mean, maybe not ever, but I loved it, and I want my listeners to hear it too. We were talking about, sort of how you wrote this book, and I'm going to forget, but you talked about melding content and context, yes, content and context. And I want you to, I want you to go to the place that you're gonna go. I just want, I'm just queuing you up. So tell the people about that, and what you did with this book.

Cleyvis Natera 36:56

Yes, thank you. I mean, it's also one of my favorite things. I came up with that in was like, That's a good one. So you know, one of the things that I have been trying to teach my students, especially my graduate students that are working on whole books, is that, as literary writers, our job first and foremost is that whatever the content of the book is, so that means, like, what the story is about to meet the context of the book, which is the structure of the book. And so, you know, one of the things that Traci and I were talking about was really, like this idea that the book is being called a thriller, or, like suspense. And I certainly felt like it was very, very important for this book to be suspenseful. But the reason that the book is suspenseful wasn't because I was necessarily trying to change genre. I don't actually know a lot of the conventions of thrillers or suspense books. Part of the reason why I became very invested in this book being what it is is because I was thinking about the book being a labor book. And for me it was so important to think about, well, if the workers are working the whole time, and this is a book, what is the job of the reader in the book? And for me, became really important, and you were the a plus plus students, so the job of the reader is what to read. Thank you very much. I can tell you how many times I've asked this question at events, and everybody looks at me blank eyed. Your job as a reader is to read. And so one of the things that I was thinking about was, you know, I want, you know, the context of this book to be such that there is no way that a reader can put this book down and that for the duration of this narrative, you know, I'm hooking you and hooking you and hooking you so that you read one more page, you know. And I gave a lot of thought to that, and I gave a lot of like work, and especially when it came like you. And I were talking about the history, and I thought a lot about, well, how do I make the history, which is really fraught in the Dominican Republic, between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Like, how can I make that a part of the story in a way that doesn't feel slow, you know? Because I don't want it to be a historical fiction book that would, like, slow down the entire prospect, right? Of like, the content of the book meeting its context. And so I, I'm very, very excited that, like, you could see what I was talking about, because there's a part of me that feels like, you know, whenever we're trying to be ambitious and pull stunts, there's like, just and I am so happy that I'm older in my life that, like, I feel like anytime that I see people flattening my efforts and my Talents, it doesn't face me the way I think it would have faced me before. Because it's not to say that there's anything wrong with genre fiction, like I read romances, I've read, you know, all kinds of books that would fall into genre. But to me, it's also, like especially dangerous when I think, you know, literary writers, especially women, of. Color are attempting to do something that takes quite a bit of skill, and then all of a sudden people can, like, kind of swipe it away by by giving it a label, and then also, like, not calling the fact that there's, like, masterful things that are at work in the way that we're exercising, like our talent and our stories.

Traci Thomas 40:18

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, one of the things I wish more authors understood about readers, because I think while many authors are readers when they're writing, they are extremely disconnected from their reader self and from their reader audience. Yeah, is that we want to read something that we want to read like we want you to give us something that we want to keep reading. Do you know? Like, and I think especially this book, like, I was so desperate to know what was going to happen to the characters. I mean, I text you during the book, and was like, I know you're not going to do this. Like, I mean, I literally was sitting there being like, is clavis the kind of person that would do this, yes or no, like, thinking about who I was judging you as a human basically, as I was reading the book, but because I was just desperate to get to the end of it, and I think like to do that well, is so extremely difficult, and it's actually the reason that I, even though I don't talk about it a lot, I almost always like a thriller or a suspense, because I really like plot. The problem is a lot of them are extremely poorly written, like the writing is just so bad I cannot handle it. But when like a book, like Gone Girl, Sign me up. I'm there all day. And like, same with your book. I the comp that I told you when we were together, that I think I've mentioned to some people in the stacks, pack is like, I think this book reminds me a lot in pacing and in sort of like, depth and history and like the social commentary is god of the Woods by Liz Moore, which is this fantastic literary suspense mystery. I don't know. I'm so I don't know the difference between those things, but, but it's like when a writer is able to build the suspense and also tell the story beautifully, I'm like, I don't think, I don't think you can beat that. I think, I think we talked about this too. Danzi Senna, I think she's writing some of the best thrillers out but nobody calls them thrillers, because her stakes are not like death. Her stakes are like getting a boyfriend or like getting a job writing a book, but to turn something like that into suspense. I just, I'm like, I love that. I love that. And I don't, I think you're right. We're not giving people enough credit for for writing those kinds of books.

Cleyvis Natera 42:47

Yes, and I think that the and it's right. I mean, I don't, I don't blame, like the literally, it's literary, the literary establishment. Because, you know, I think so much of what good literature supposed to do is, you know, is supposed to be concerned with, like, highbrow art and the human experience, and it's supposed to be slow, right? But I just feel like we are right now. And I say this to everybody that will listen to me, I teach classes for very little money because I'm very invested in bringing literary writers kind of to the forefront of the idea that, like, entertainment is not a four letter word. And I do think that maybe it is because I come from a culture where, in my family, if you're whack and you're doing a poor job telling a story, people are going to be like, shut up and they're gonna they're just gonna over talk you, they're gonna get louder, and they're just, you're not gonna get to keep talking if you're boring. And so this idea that, like, in some ways, the books that get rewarded, or the books that get thought of as like the highest manifestation of literary artistry are the ones that are dense, unreadable. You know, a lot of the people who I think are at the top of what I would consider to be kind of the hierarchy of writers in the United States are people who, like most people, have never heard of most people haven't finished their books. And I just think that's a shame, like, I'd much rather have readers who want to read the book and who will keep reading it. And I am not sacrificing language. I am not sacrificing complexity. I mean this book to me, so much of what I wanted to accomplish was character. You know, like I was like this. What I want to do, my ambition is to create this thorny, messy, complicated characters to put all of their desires, you know, in like, competing against each other. And I want to, like, show something that I think hasn't been done when it comes to, like, this kind of literature and this kind of workbook. And so the fact that people are like this is a. Binge read. I'm like, Yes, I did my job, you know, because what I what I was trained to do, was the other kind of book, right where, like, the language, the line level, you know, and and I did, I was a very good student. I learned how to do all those things. So I just want to invite my peers to, like, really kind of push against this idea that somehow our work becomes cheaper if the reader enjoys it, like, Are you kidding me? Is this supposed to do? I mean, I mean.

Traci Thomas 45:27

I think we see there's like, this disconnect between, like, the critic and the art so often and so many different forms of art. Like, I think about movies like the movies that are blockbusters, versus the movies that win the Oscars. I think that's like, so obvious. And obviously, you know, I I love criticism, I love, I love to opinion about a piece of art. Like, you know, don't let me make let me act like I don't like critics. But I do think there's this disconnect about like, what is good and what is enjoyable. And like, what do people want versus what do critics want? And you know, those things can be at odds with one another, and that's totally fine and allowed. But books are in crisis for a lot of reasons, and I think one of them is that writers are sometimes writing to the critic and not writing to themselves, like to being true to themselves, but also to their reader. And like thinking about, like, what would a reader want? And obviously some readers, like a very moody literary nothing happens. And like to those people, they are getting what they want. But not everybody can write that book, you know, like a bad one of those, oh boy, yeah, brutal.

Cleyvis Natera 46:37

But I think it comes back to the same thing you were talking about before. And the fact is that, like the history of the novel, the history of literary, the literary works of art, is that it was like wealthy white men writing for each other, right? So when we think about like the history of literature, and when I think about who has been able to infiltrate like, you know you're doing your class on Shakespeare, and you and I both know that, like, Shakespeare became huge because Shakespeare was, like, meant for the stage, meant for entertainment, you know, and so like, for the people, regular borrows, regular people, like, the reason that it's funny, the reason that it's interesting, the reason that is shocking, right, is because it was meant to be entertaining. And so I feel like it's also kind of like, like, we turn against ourselves, we show ourselves when we say, like, these kinds of works of art, which the reason that we keep coming back to Shakespeare and we keep producing it and we keep reading it is because it's not only interesting and funny and shocking, but it's also Like, truly reflective of the human condition. It's purely reflective of who we are as human beings. And I think that it's just like we're telling on ourselves, and we're like, well, these are the things, but you know that were written hundreds of years ago versus, yeah, like the things that are now that might be doing the same thing that will get little respect.

Traci Thomas 47:56

Yes, okay, I have to ask you my signature questions. So we have to, because we're almost out of time. How do you write? How many hours a day? How often music? Rituals, snacks, beverages, candles, special socks, like give us set the scene. What's the what's the vibe?

Cleyvis Natera 48:11

Well, I feel like I need to, like, do a little bit of a throwback to like, be more entertaining for you, because I've been thinking about these questions for a long time. And I feel like, you know, when I started writing and I was in my 20s, I had an apartment in heartland, and the way that I used to write was, like, very ritualized, like, I used to drink wine. I used to have, I love sunflower seeds and so, like, that would be my snack of choice, okay, you know, I would like, be very moody. And that's like, single, no kids, right? Like living my best life in Harlem these days, I couldn't be a more boring writer. Like, I get up at 430 in the morning. I drink coffee non stop, and I drink it black. I don't put anything in my coffee. Okay? I'm kind of like a workhorse when it comes to my writing. I think, you know, especially with transitioning from being a full time employee for a corporation and a mom and a wife and all those things where I had to squeeze it into like, before the day started, and I would get up at 430 or five and write, you know, and then do the day now these days, because I'm a full time writer like, I get to go away to write in retreats, and I get to spend, you know, so like, my favorite way to write is to be away from my home, because my best writing doesn't come when I'm here. I love to just be at a writing retreat. And I can write for three or four hour blocks, and I do it three times a day, like I will write for, you know, 812, hour days. And that's part of the reason why, when I go away and my husband's always like, you know, because what we end up posting on Instagram from the writing retreats is like the walks on the beach, the walks, yeah, the, you know, the wine tastings or whatever it is that you're doing when other people are reading their work or presenting their work. But I am a very. Very rigorous writer, and sadly, no snacks, just coffee.

Traci Thomas 50:05

I hate this for me. I still love you, though. So you're lucky. You're one of the few, most people I would just end the interview and be like, yeah, I get the book. It's fine, gotta go, but you can stay, because at least you used to eat sunflower seeds. How do you sort of like, preserve your creativity, or tap into your creativity, especially as, like, a workhorse type person. You sit down. Are there days where you're just like, I don't have it? I'm not doing it eight hours today, like, and if not, how do you get it when you feel like you don't have it?

Cleyvis Natera 50:39

Yeah, I don't, I don't actually believe that, like, your best work comes from inspiration. I think that your best work comes from revision, and I think that your best work comes from, like, getting closer and closer to your characters. I also think that there's something that I have learned, especially with the freedom that comes now, from not having to show up to a desk job every day, which is that, like so much of what makes my work better is writing a whole draft and then giving myself time to just, like, percolate on, like the complexities and like, find the holes in the story and then coming back and filling them up. So my process is, honestly, I, first of all, I don't think I can lose it. So I don't believe in writer's block, like, I just think sometimes the writing is just really shitty, and you have to, like, accept it. There are certain parts of this book, certain scenes where, like, there's a scene that I've been reading, and some people will recognize it comes later in the book where Pablo is in a suite with some guests. And one of the things that I wanted to do with that scene was to show how you could just write a scene that just stands for, like the entire book itself, and how you could write a scene that would be meant to be read out loud to give people really good time. And so there's a part of me that says I'm really grateful to the friend of mine who suggested that, because, you know, I remember sitting down and really thinking about like, what makes me laugh, what's fucking to me? And that scene, I wrote it in one sitting, and I never revised it like it came out, like silly birth, you know, for what it was meant to be. And there are other parts of this book where, like, I labored over it, and it was like, over and over. So, yeah, I don't, I'm not one of those people that prescribes to the idea that, you know, like our talent or inspiration is to be cuddled, like, I think it's just, it's just labor. It is just work. It is just sweat. You know, it's, um, it's just, you got to sit down. And if it's not great, you make it great. And if it comes out, sometimes it comes out and it's really done. And you also have to have kind of the maturity to, like, know the difference, like, when something's really good, don't touch it, don't mess it up.

Traci Thomas 53:01

Yeah, I think about art as work a lot. And I Well, I'm not a writer, so, like, I don't have writer's block or whatever. I do have to write things. And I also don't really believe in it. I do believe that, like, I I'm, like, an idea machine, and I do believe that I have terrible ideas sometimes, and nobody ever hears about them, and they never see the light of day, but that, like, the whole practice of having ideas is so that I might get a good one, yes, or like that, I might get something that I could work with. And sometimes, like you said, like, I'll have a perfect idea from the beginning, and then sometimes I will have a really bad idea for a really long time, you know, and I'm just like, I can't get this idea out of my head, but it's not good, and eventually it'll go away. But like, I think a lot of people have an idea about artists, or people who create things that, like, you're like, that you need to labor over everything. And I feel like much more some things are good and some things are bad. And like, it's my job is just to come up with the ideas, or, like, in your case, to write the scene or write the sentence, and then to deal with the judgment of the thing later. Like, I don't judge my ideas as they come. I just sort of, like, have a mental thing where I'm like, oh, that's something. And then if I keep thinking about I'm like, Oh, that is something I could, you know, but that I don't actually have a sense of good or bad as I'm creating, I have a sense of good or bad as I'm sort of, you know, revising or like dealing or like trying to flesh it out.

Cleyvis Natera 54:30

Yes, I love that. And I'll tell you one other thing, which is that part of the reason why I stopped drinking wine as I wrote is because I was convinced everything was genius. I mean, I spent so much time in my 20s, like with my friends, we would go to, like a bar, we would go wherever we were going for a writing date, and we would just be, like, drinking bottles of wine. And at a certain point I was just like, oh my god, this is the best thing that's ever been written in the whole history of humanity. And then it would be like, garbage. Yes. I think there's something too, and I'm grateful for those days honestly, because I think there's something to me about the idea or the seed or, like, what brought you to that and like, sometimes you throw it away. I've thrown hundreds of pages of my work away because I knew that it wasn't serving the narrative. And it might have been good writing, but it wasn't just serving the story.

Traci Thomas 55:20

Yeah, I also cannot drink when I'm working, like, like, when I like, when I do the tour or whatever, when I do a live show, I don't drink before. I often can't drink after, actually, either, like, I just my energy doesn't allow for that. I'm too controlling. You know, live is hard, live live, live is hard, and I don't like to feel loose at all when I'm live. I like to feel really like, remember holding on for dear life. I gotta be clear. I don't know people like comedians. You know, they get like, wasted before they go on stage. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know how anybody, I know people do it, but I don't know how anybody does like I just could never. I mean, that's the other thing that's so fun about process. Like everyone has their own thing, but for the kind of person that I am, the way that I'm wound getting less wound is bad, bad for my performance. Okay, we're basically out of time, but I need to know the word you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Cleyvis Natera 56:22

Oh, my goodness. What is the word? You know what? Acknowledge. I can never spell.

Traci Thomas 56:27

That's one of mine, acknowledges, impossible acknowledgement. Acknowledgements are my favorite part of the book. They're literally my favorite part of every book, even if I hate the book I'm like made it to the acknowledgements. Can't spell it can't spell it.

Speaker 1 56:41

I feel like I just misspelled it. Today, I was like, trying to write somebody, and I'm like, why is this possible? I'm such a good speller.

Traci Thomas 56:49

Do you know what I just realized? Does your book have acknowledgements? It does. I got the, that's the one thing I got with the with the arc, there's no acknowledgements in it. Gotta find I gotta find it. I gotta go get it. I'll go get the real one. Um, okay, we gotta tease this to people. There's another Paloma. It's coming. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Cleyvis Natera 57:10

Yes, I am, like I said, fascinated by workplace dynamics. So for the next installment of of Paloma, we are going to be sitting inside the mother ship. So it is about the Paloma Enterprises, and the hotel where it actually takes place is also in the Caribbean, and they are specializing in medical tourism. So I'm very interested. And please, if you're out there, because I have been asking people to give me everything they think I should know about Curacao. I'm writing also Traci, about an island I've never been to.

Traci Thomas 57:52

Oh yes, I was, are you gonna go? I feel like you need to go.

Cleyvis Natera 57:55

It's research. I told my husband, we're going next month. We're going in October. I was like, Listen, I have to go to Curacao like, six times in the next year. And he was like, Okay, this sounds a little overboard, but I was really interested, because I visited so many islands, and I was thinking about, like, just the Caribbean as this kind of hub of commerce and financial misdeeds. And I was thinking a lot about how everybody knows, you know, the Cayman Islands. Everybody knows Grand Cayman, but a lot of people don't know about Curacao. And anyway, Curacao has an interesting history with the Dominican Republic, which I think will make for a very juicy experience for my protagonist. So yeah, so medical tourism Curacao, if anybody has, like, interesting things they think I should know as I'm going into the second book, second Paloma book, I welcome it. I welcome all the tips.

Traci Thomas 58:49

Wait, where is enterprises center? Are they in New York?

Cleyvis Natera 58:52

Oh, my God. Like, I'm so glad you're asking me this, because I did not, I've not thought that through.

Traci Thomas 58:58

So I think they should be in, like, Houston. I feel like they should be somewhere in Texas. Or like, I don't know, I like that suggestion. I like or like, maybe, like somewhere random in Florida, like St Petersburg, Florida, like where the Scientologists are. Or like, Clearwater, I feel like a lot of, like, I used to work for a company that was based in Clearwater, because that's like, for tax reasons. I don't know. I feel like not New York.

Cleyvis Natera 59:22

Not New York. No, definitely not the Northeast. I definitely think that Paloma Enterprises has to be somewhere. Yeah, I think you're right. It's in the south, for sure.

Traci Thomas 59:33

I think so okay, for people who love the grand Paloma resort, what are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation?

Cleyvis Natera 59:40

Oh, my goodness. So I mean, first of all, I think everybody should read as Dante cuts the farming of bones. I mean, that is a book that really did so much for my for my own work. Jamaica, Kincaid wrote a non fiction book that is called a small place, and it is like very slow. Gender is, it's, it's kind of like Jamaica Kincaid talking about tourism and colorism and a lot of issues in the Caribbean. And she says, I find her brain to be just incredible. I mean, I read every single Jamaica Kincaid book in order to write my book, this book, because I just find that she knows how to write complicated women like nobody else, and she has always kind of blurred the lines between genre, between fiction nonfiction. She's very often talked about the fact that a lot of her protagonists are her, and I just find that fascinating. So a small place is a book that I think technically, is really just incredible. And then also content wise, I think it's just really interesting, like the way that she thinks and talks about tourism in the Caribbean. Shout out to all my friends who I love. I think Angie Cruz how not to drown in a glass of water. I think even though it's like a story that takes place in America, I think it has so many emotional truths about what it means to be like part of like a working class and just being treated badly by like the systems that you're trying to uphold. And I love, I love everything Angie Chris does.

Traci Thomas 1:01:13

So I love, okay, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Cleyvis Natera 1:01:20

It would have to be Toni Morrison. Yeah. And yeah. I mean, I know it's like now it's cliche, because so many of us consider like Toni Morrison to be so formative. But I just think that like, the first real book that like helped me to understand my place in the world was The Bluest Eye, and I feel like the horrors that I was living through as a young child at that time with violence and sexual abuse. I don't know that I would have been so clear eyed, both about the fact that, like, the world was so corrosive, but also, like, kind of the power of art and books in like, helping you through, like the book itself, I think is so beautiful. Because I know a lot of people think of this book as being so tragic, and it is, but I think toward the end, there's something so beautiful about like, that kind of comfort you get from like the imagination and escaping horror through the imagination that I mean, I read that book every year, and I just love it. And, you know, I remember toward the end of you know, Toni Morrison's life, the day that I found out she died, I had been working at my corporate job in New Jersey, away from home, and I had to leave. I was like, Oh, my God. I felt like my parent had died. And I remember in that moment, Traci being like, oh, like, not only has the whole world lost this genius, but also the fact that she wouldn't read any of my book, which is ridiculous. I'm like mourning her, but also mourning myself, because I get to read my book. But I definitely would like bring her back from the dead to read.

Traci Thomas 1:02:54

You know, this, what the grand Paloma is sort of in conversation with, is tar baby a little bit, right? I like, so, I mean, I thought an island sort of setting, and then, like, the different classes coming together. And it also sort of has those, like, really, not suspenseful, but those scenes where you're like, I have to read this, like, I can't stop I sort of feel like they're, they're definitely in conversation to me, yeah.

Cleyvis Natera 1:03:19

I mean, I think just every single book that Toni Morrison has written, that she wrote has had such an outsized impact on me. So I was thinking a lot about, there was a version of this book, actually, where Elena talked about Song of Solomon. Was talking a lot about, you know, like milkman and so anyway, there was, like, something else, and then I ended up taking it out because I was like, No, that's not the right book for this be, you know, to be partner with. But, yeah, no, she's incredible. I still just like, reread all her books.

Traci Thomas 1:03:53

Who else is incredible? Clavis Natera. Thank you so much for being here, people. You can get the grand Paloma resort, wherever you get your books. I read it off the page, so I can't speak to the audiobook, but I'm sure it's good. You wouldn't have a bad audio book. Yeah. Great job.

Cleyvis Natera 1:04:08

Thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun, Traci, you are just incredible. Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan of yours.

Traci Thomas 1:04:16

I'm a fan of yours, and everyone else we will see you in the Stacks.

Traci Thomas 1:04:27

Thank you all so much for listening, and thank you again to Cleyvis Natera for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Amelia Possanza for making this episode possible. As a reminder, our September book club pick is The Lilac People by Milo Todd, which we will discuss on Wednesday, September 24 with Denne Michele Norris. If you love the show, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcast or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
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Ep. 388 A Community in Book Form with Maggie Smith and Saeed Jones