Unabridged: Poetry Therapy 2.0

Happy National Poetry Month! We’re celebrating by bringing back another installment of Poetry Therapy, which is a bonus episode we did back in 2024. If you've ever felt like you didn’t “get it” when it comes to poetry, we've got five incredible poets who can help: José Olivarez, Cortney Charleston, Camonghne Felix, Nate Marshall, and Yesika Zamora. Each poet has selected a poem to break down with me—they'll read it, discuss what they notice and how it works, and talk about why it excites them. Whether you love poetry, don’t understand it, or are somewhere in between, this episode is for you.

TRANSCRIPT

Traci Thomas 0:00

Hey everybody, it's me. Traci Thomas, host of the stacks, and I am here with another extra special bonus episode of the stacks unabridged. April is National Poetry Month, and so we are bringing back something that you all love, that we did two years ago. We call it poetry therapy. It's where I invite five poets onto the podcast, each of whom has chosen one poem for us to read together and discuss. They're going to help us break it down, explain what they think makes the poem good. I'm going to talk about what I am noticing, what I am wondering about, and it's all in an effort to alleviate our collective poetry anxieties and fears. If you are a person who has those, I don't want to project I have them today. I am joined by Nate Marshall, Jose Olivares, Cortney Lamar, Charleston, Camonghne Felix and Yesica Salgado. And hopefully, with the help of these five poets, we will be cured of our poetry anxieties, and we will be able to just lean in and enjoy the words. Enough. Let us dive in to this year's 2026 poetry therapy session.

All right, to kick things off. We are joined by our dear friend of the podcast, Jose Olivares. Jose is the award winning author of two poetry collections, citizen illegal, which was the finalist for the pen Jean Stein Book Award and promises of gold, which was long listed for the National Book Award in 2023 The same year, he came on this very podcast to discuss the book, let's dive into my conversation with Jose Olivarez.

All right, everybody, we're kicking off poetry therapy with the founder of the poetry therapy Institute, Jose Olivares, friend of the pod, author, poet extraordinaire. Welcome back, Jose.

José Olivarez 2:03

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:07

I'm so excited. I just what a gift poetry therapy has become. I feel like it's changed my life, like all therapy.

José Olivarez 2:15

That's amazing. I'm so happy you like it. You know, for me, this is also like an Ellen bass fan club meeting. So, yes, is great.

Traci Thomas 2:22

I know I was, I thought you might do another Ellen bass. I was a little surprised you went a different direction.

José Olivarez 2:27

I did. Yeah, I love Ellen bass. I definitely looked through her catalog to see if I wanted to use another one of her poems. Yeah, you know,

Traci Thomas 2:34

I just constantly revisit. The thing is, I just like every day, I read it out loud to myself, just a reminder that, you know, we need to take life like a face in our hands. No, you know, no violet eyes, you know, and say, I will love you again. Anyways, I love that poem. But today we are reading for a Estefani Laura, third grade, who made me a card, a poem by aracelis girmay. I'm going to read it out loud to everyone, and then we're going to talk about it. And this one's a little bit long, people, but it's so good. It's very sweet, okay, elephant on an orange line, underneath a yellow circle, meaning sun, six green vertical lines with color all from the top, meaning flowers. The first time I peel back the five squares of scotch tape, unfold the crooked crease, fold of art class paper I am in my living room. It is June. Inside of the card, there is one long word and then Estefani's name, Loisfoeribari. Estefani Lora Loisfoeribari. Loisfoeribari, the scientific Latinate way of saying hibiscus. Loisfoeribari a direction, as in, are you going north, south, east, west, Loisfoeribari, I try over and over to read the word out loud. Loisfoeribari, Loisfoeribari, Loisfoeribari, Loisfoeribari. What is this word? I imagine using it in sentences like, Man, I have to go back to the house. I forgot my Loisfoeribari. Or, there's nothing better than rain, hot rain, open windows with music and a tall glass of Loisfoeribari. Or, how are we getting to Pittsburgh, should we drive or take the Loisfoeribari? I have lived four minutes with this word, not knowing what it means. It is the end of the year. I consider writing my student, Estefani Lora, a letter that goes to the brilliant Estefani Lora, hola querida. I hope that you are well, I've just opened the card that you made me, and it is beautiful. I really love the way you filled the sky with birds. I believe that you are Chula chulita and super fly. Yes, the card is beautiful. I only have one question for you, what does the word Loisfoeribari mean? I try the word again, Loisfoeribari, Loisfoeribari, Loisfoeribari. I try the word in Spanish, Loisfoeribari. Loisfoeribari. And then, slowly, Loisfoeribari, low is fo everybody. Love is for everybody. Love is for every, every body. Love, love, love, everybody. Love, everybody. Love, love is love, everybody. Everybody is love, love, love for love for everybody. For love is everybody. Love is for every. Love is for everybody. Love, love, love for body, love, Body, body is love. Love is body. Every body is Love is every love for every love is love for love everybody. Love, love, love, love for everybody. Love is for everybody.

José Olivarez 6:35

Amazing. I love that reading too, the drama in you really comes out when you read poems.

Traci Thomas 6:43

You know, I take a text seriously. I do like to read out loud. Okay, why did you pick this poem for this exercise?

José Olivarez 6:53

Well, you know, poetry therapy is such a special opportunity, so I was, I spent a long time, kind of looking through some of my favorite poems, and when I remembered this one, I immediately gravitated to it. I just, I love it so much, and to get the opportunity to share it with people that haven't encountered it, I was like, I can't pass up this chance. So for me, that's what drew me to it first and foremost.

Traci Thomas 7:22

Okay, now let's notice and wonder. This is something that my kids teacher talked about and like some class exercise, and I talked about it with Mo brown on the show, and it's now my new obsession for poetry. One of the things I notice about this poem is that it is just so light, it just is, like, it's easy. There's not a moment in the poem where I think, what's going on here, aside from what the fuck is this word? But everything around the word is just like, I know what. I know exactly what a yellow circle meaning Sun is. I can picture it. I just feel like that's something that I noticed I also do. I am so curious about the actual origins of this poem. Like, Was there really a card, or is this an idea that came to her? Like, I just, I do wonder about that. I know the ending. Of course, I noticed the like switch from storytelling to sort of a more poetry feeling word salady thing, which I like. I think it really elevates the poem. Because I think the beginning feels so pedestrian in a complimentary way, that the end feels sort of like, oh, the poet is here now, which I really think is cool. And I noticed, like, there's humor, and I like that. So those are some things that I notice and wonder about, what about you?

José Olivarez 8:46

Yeah, absolutely, I can't 100% confirm that this is a real card that aracelis received. I do know that she was actually a teacher, so it could totally be an actual card for me. What I noticed is, I mean, I still remember the first time I read it, and Loisfoeribari, like the word now I can't see those letters and not immediately jump to love is for everybody. But the first time I read it, that was not the case, and so I remembered kind of reading through the poem and trying to figure out, like, yeah, what is this long word and not knowing, and when the poem splits it up, like, I remember that experience of seeing it for the first time and being like, oh my god, the sign Off is love is for everybody. Loisfoeribari Estefanie Lora. And just feeling this moment, I can still feel it like I get the tingles just from like, this sense of like ecstatic and euphoria. And then to go into the section that you described right the noticing the last section, which is, you know, you call it word salad. For me, it just feels like ecstasy. It's, you know, it's just like, it breaks so many rules, like you probably not if you're, if you're, like, learning how to write poetry, you're probably told not to, you know, write over and over the word love, 100 million times, right? Like it, probably someone would tell you, it's too much, it's too saccharine, it's too corny, but in the moment experiencing it, I love. Every single line is love, everybody. Everybody is love, love, love for love. Like I can read it over and over again, and it just feels good, and they and it produces, I think, what it's supposed to which is, like this sense of of ecstasy, of euphoria, and so I love that, yeah.

Traci Thomas 10:56

I agree. I do think that any you can't kind of read it and not smile, because there's also the way that it comes from her doing the breaking it down right before, like, and then slowly, low is her. And then you get to that, and it's like a victory lap too. It's like, I got it. Love is for everybody. Love, love, love, yay, yay, yay, everybody. Everybody, buddy, buddy, hey, we did it. It definitely has that vibe of, like, we did it, we're here. Congratulations. Like, and the answer is so great, right? The answer isn't north, south, east, west. The answer is love. Is for everybody. Like, what a frolic, yeah. And that's wonderful,

José Olivarez 11:35

but also it could be it kind of does work as a direction, like a different kind of Compass, but I hope that where I'm headed is to love is for everybody. You know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 11:47

You're such a poet. I'm dead. You're such a poet. Yes, of course, I do know what you mean, but only a poet would say on a different kind of compass.

José Olivarez 11:56

I mean it. And you know, the other thing, the other thing I love about the poem is, you know, I think we are trained to try and read poetry for information, to just kind of extract meaning, and it kind of resists that, in a way. I mean, of course, it kind of it tells us at the end, right what the word means. But the point is not actually that the word is love is for everybody. It's the experience of like feeling it and trying to understand, and the fact that this is a third grader that wrote it, and sitting with that wondering, I just think, yeah, I really love it. It's one of the poems that I can show anybody, and they immediately ask for more. You know, they're like, please send me all your favorite ARace. Give my poems, because this is amazing.

Traci Thomas 12:53

This is the only one I've ever read.

José Olivarez 12:54

There are so many good ones. I will send you.

Traci Thomas 12:57

Send me some obviously. Can I tell you my favorite part of the whole poem? Yes, it's very early. It's in the second section, the third stanza, where so she's just said the first time I peel back the five squares of scotch tape, unfold the crooked crease, fold of an art class paper I am in my living room. It is June. That's my favorite part of the whole poem. It is June. I love it. I love when a poem has, like, long lines, or longer lines, and then they have just like a declarative statement that is short. I love when a line is short, not not just like a bunch of short lines, but I like when a line is short. In the context of longer lines, it is June. I just feel like there's so much there, and you get that nice pause afterwards, because it's like you get to fill that line with whatever you want. Like, memories of June, thoughts of June. Maybe it's June Gloom, maybe it's a beautiful day, but like it is June, the first time I read it, I said, I love this moment. This is such a great moment. It is June, I love it.

José Olivarez 14:06

And that kind of brings me back to the top of the poem, right? Because the whole poem is lows for everybody, right? But that is not the title of the poem, and that it is not in the first stanza, right, or the first section, instead of leading with the kind of premise of the poem and the the mystery of the poem, the wonder of the poem, we just get the the decorations on the card. And so then the second section is the opening of the card. And so, yeah, yeah, you're right. It is June, and it could mean anything, right, and then we get to inside of the card. There is one long word. And then I also love the dramatic. And then you know what I mean? Yeah. It ends the line. We get a line break, and then estefani's name. Loisfoeribari. Estephani Lora

Traci Thomas 15:03

what do you make of the ampersand instead of the word and

José Olivarez 15:08

Oh, I Iove that question. So aracelis has a poem that's an ode to the ampersand. And I think it kind of exists also to explain why she chooses to go with ampersand. It's one of the signatures, small signatures of her writing is the use of the ampersand over the word and and also, what led me to use ampersands in my own writing is, you know, this is, like, one of the writers that that is very important to me. So, yeah, so it, you know, I don't remember the entire Ode to ampersand, but in it, the one image that I remember is she says that an ampersand kind of looks like a heart, like a human heart in its two chambers, and it looks like a muscle. And I love that. And so for me, that that is also why I use ampersands instead of the word. And in poetry

Traci Thomas 16:00

I love it. That's a great answer. I'll take that answer. I don't. Again, I don't. This is a fun thing about poetry therapy. Also, for me, is like, I get to talk to a poet who can put the poem that they picked in context, which I would never know just from reading the one poem, which is all that I do, like I don't research the poem. And so I think it's kind of fun to see that if you are reading poetry, just to read one poem, you can get all of these things out of it. But also, if you're reading poetry, and you love poetry, you there's so much context behind each poem and each poet. And like, I love when I see a poem and it's like, after so and so, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is gossip. Like poetry gossip is happening. So it's fun to know that she's got a whole ampersand situation going on.

José Olivarez 16:46

Yeah, I love it being described as poetry gossip that that's really beautiful. I hadn't thought about it that way. The other thing that I love about it is it's such a simple structure that you would think that it'd be easy to create a poem in this vein, to kind of pick a phrase and decode it, but I think it's actually very difficult. In fact, I only know one other poem off the top of my head that I would place in lineage with this poem. It's a poem called be, say, do, which is also the titular poem of a poet named YALI Kamara, who's a poet from the Bay Area. And it's the only other time that I've seen it work. Because I think as easy as a structure looks, we're pretty good at decoding words, you know, and so if you choose the wrong kind of phrase, it'll it'll be clear, too easy, or something like that, or you maybe rush the kind of the unfolding of the poem this. This is the other thing, right, you mentioned in your intro, like it's a longer poem. But another way to think of it is that it's kind of taking its time in, in letting you in on the secret, right? It's not spoiling it too quickly.

Traci Thomas 18:05

Yeah, the length of this poem is so important to the poem. It does. Sometimes I'm reading a poem and I'm like, okay, get let's get there already. But this one, it's like, the length is sort of part of the experience. It's also not that many words. It's just a lot. It's like, like, it's not long in a wordy poem way, it's long and that it takes time to get through it.

José Olivarez 18:30

Yeah. And poems, you know, I love reading poems, and poems lose me. Sometimes, if they, you know, feel too long and but there's, there's a difference. You know, sometimes I think poets can misunderstand and think that because something is interesting to them, that it'll automatically be interesting to the reader. And so they spend, you know, a million lines going on and on about one small thing. And maybe for some readers, it works. But for me, I'm like, like, let's, I got it. I get it. Let's, let's move on. Let's go. Let's get it. And, yeah, but when it but when it works? Oh, my god, does it work? And this is

Traci Thomas 19:10

right, because you want to get to the end of this poem, she's pulling us into the story. It's very and it's also so narrative this poem, yeah, so it's easy to follow it. It's easy to stick with it, because you understand where you're you don't know what the answer is, but you understand where you're going, you're gonna find out what this means, yeah. And so it's like, Well, I gotta keep reading, because I have to find out what this means.

José Olivarez 19:38

Yeah, I think, I think that's right, I've heard people have told me, and I tell students, sometimes you can make a poem out of anything, and I think it's quite challenging actually. You know, like, if you actually try to make a poem out of anything, it can be very difficult and then, but it's all about perspective and how you compose it. Right? And so something like this really, really, kind of reaffirms to me that you can really, there is always inspiration around us, and it's just about really tuning in and trying to figure out what that is. And so there's so many on a couple of different levels. The poem inspires me and it affirms me, and it reminds me that love is for everybody. Like all of these things kind of are true for me. For me, poetry is kind of like therapy, in the sense that there are times where I show up to my therapist and I'm like, actually, I'm good this week. Like, congratulations, Doctor, you did your job. I'm totally healed. I have nothing to talk about. I am a mentally healthy person. Yeah, congratulations. And the doctor will be like, All right, well, you know, tell me about you, what you did on the weekend. And it's an innocent question, but it might lead me into a place where all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, my God, I've it actually reminded me of this weekend 18 years ago where, you know, yeah, something happened.

Traci Thomas 21:03

You're the best. Wait before you go, before you go, yes, there's a novel.

José Olivarez 21:09

There is a novel. Supposedly, you want me to talk about it.

Traci Thomas 21:12

I mean, if you want to, I don't, you don't have to.

José Olivarez 21:15

Yeah, I'm, I'm having a good time with it. It was not always a good time. I'm leaning into structure and I'm having a good time with it. And yeah, I'm excited. Hopefully it'll be out sooner than later.

Traci Thomas 21:34

Yay. Okay, well, we love you. You're the best. Thank you so much for being my own personal poetry therapist. And, yeah, that's it

José Olivarez 21:44

awesome anytime. Thank you so much for inviting me to do this again. I love this tradition.

Traci Thomas 21:55

Next up, we're joined by Courtney Lamar Charleston, who is the author of three poetry collections, including a Stax book club pick, doppelgang banger, which was named a best book in 2021 by the New York Public Library, the Boston Globe and electric literature. He's got a brand new collection that came out earlier this year, and it's called, it's important to remember. All right, everybody, we're back with another poet another time to go through a poem for poetry therapy. I am joined today by Courtney Lamar Charleston. Courtney, welcome to the stacks.

Cortney Lamar Charleston 22:28

I am so excited to be here with you, Traci, thank you.

Traci Thomas 22:32

You know we did your book for book club years ago with Nate Marshall. So it's sort of exciting to get to talk to you.

Cortney Lamar Charleston 22:38

Yes, yes, I recall.

Traci Thomas 22:40

So today you have picked job prescription by Evie Shockley, so I'm going to read it to everyone, and then we're going to notice and wonder and talk about the poem for a few minutes. Okay, here we go. Job prescription by Evie Shockley, will poetry change the world? No one asks this about football, the thrill of watching or playing, we get that nurses and doctors are healers. No one questions that rabbis, priests and Imams guide individuals and groups through spiritual thickets. We don't tell cooks to put down their wooden spoons and go make a real difference instead of a real souffle. Teachers are honored for the learning they impart. So let poets keep on exciting passion in themselves and others. Don't discourage us from our efforts to diagnose the human heart or create trail markers for those coming behind us on this journey, trust me when I say that poetry heals, guides, feeds and enlivens. Poetry may not change the world, but might change you. Yay. That's the poem.

Cortney Lamar Charleston 23:55

Okay, good job reading. That was great. Thank you.

Traci Thomas 23:59

Thank you so much. I love all compliments. Okay, why did you want to do this poem? What about this poem felt like the correct poem for you for poetry therapy?

Cortney Lamar Charleston 24:09

being a poet, right? I can't help but think about poetry's place, kind of in our wider cultural context these days, right? I don't know how many times I've heard the power of poetry dismissed the relevancy of poetry dismissed even statements along the lines of poetry is dead, right, and couldn't be further from the truth, right? I think what has happened is that as our culture has evolved, we've kind of lost our compass a little bit, right? And poetry is part of our compass. And I think such statements kind of show just where our attentions and concerns right have shifted. And I wanted a poem that I felt number one was a defense, right? And that's one of the first things that you. Notice about evie's poem, right is that it is a defense, right, of the art form, of its beauty, its power, its utility, also, right? Evie's language is so accessible, right? And I feel like at times it's been inaccessibility, right in the text that has maybe turned some people away from it right. People read and people respond to things that they can relate to, right, things that remind them or evoke, maybe something in their own lived experience that they can kind of tether themselves toward. And because of that right, the precision with which Evie is operating leveraging language that is clearly very intricately chosen, but is not I'm trying to think of the right and polite word to say, because I don't want to sound like I'm critiquing some some other modes of writing, right? Yes, I think like if you've never read a poem before, if you are intimidated by reading poetry, yes, it is a poem that you can pick up and parse and understand and take something from while at the same time being something that was so rigorously considered by the poet, right? And so I love that aspect of it, because I'm all about making appreciation and participation in poetry, and in poetry, you know, broadly defined, right? Not only the practice of writing it, but of also reading it and engaging with people who also enjoy it. All of that, I want that to be accessible to more and more people, right? I want people to feel like poetry is something they can and should turn to. And I think this poem does a great job of kind of checking all of those different boxes. And so it felt ripe for a conversation with you, right? For National Poetry Month, because of those reasons

Traci Thomas 26:44

I agree with all of those things, and to me and my reading, you know, this feels very much like a defense, like you said, a defense of poetry, in defense of poetry. And also, you know, the title, like Job prescription feels, you know, it's like you think you can't help but think of like medicine, like right? Like that. The reader is being you're being prescribed poetry, right? Like this. This is what you need. But one of the things that I think about so much and talk about every time we talk about poetry is punctuation and line endings. And this poem really pushes my own personal belief system about these things, because there's so many lines that end in the middle of a phrase, and not just the line, but the stanza. So I'm wondering what you make of the stanzas and the line endings. I mean specifically the first time it happens is in that last line of the first stand up stands are where it says healers, no question that rabbis, priests and new stands, a new line. Imams Create Guide individuals. So I'm wondering like, what do you what do you do with that?

Cortney Lamar Charleston 27:54

Yeah, for me, I think Evie is kind of choices here, where some of the thoughts are left incomplete at the end of the line, and even, you know, not only going to the next line, but in the example that you just noted, right, going into a new stanza, I kind of like that those leaps are present, right? I think there is this subtle disruption that they're causing, right? Because once you've kind of leapt off the ledge, and you're leaving the last word you left the previous line on was an and right? We have this gap of space before we get to the Imams. You're not quite sure, right, necessarily, where the poet might be going, right? And so you kind of like, step on, step out in faith, right? And then as soon as we begin the next stanzo, we complete the thought, we close the thought, and it all makes sense, right? I really enjoy that type of experience, right, given what the poem is writing about

Traci Thomas 28:51

I think also, like, as I was reading this, and you know, I'm a big fan of reading poems out loud. It's pretty much the only way I do read poems, even at home, to myself, like from a collection, which is find a time when I can read out loud. Read Out Loud. What I've learned is that a lot of times, like the poet is trying to teach us how to read the poem, or, like, teach us how to understand the poem. And what I felt like in reading this out loud that I didn't would not have gotten had I just looked at it on the page, is that this feels like a poem where she's thinking out loud with her reader. Like, it almost feels like each of these lines ends and she doesn't really know exactly where she's going next either, right? It's like, Will poetry change the world? And then it's like, it's almost like someone's asked her this, like, do you think poetry will change the world? And she's like, huh, how am I going to respond to this at a book event, right? Like, it has that very much vibe of like, let me kind of say this back to you, you asshole. Like, it kind of gives it that sense of like, you know what? I mean? It's like when someone asks you a question where you're like that it's very like. Toni Morrison, you have no idea how deeply like offensive that question is, right? So I really like the way that the lines sort of end. It in the middle of a thought, is her kind of being, like, how am I gonna say this? So let poets keep on exciting passion in themselves. Like, allow us this bit. Don't discourage us from our, you know, effort to diagnose that, you know, like, it's like, it feels very it's coming to her as she's going, and then she gets to the end, and, you know, you can, like, I can, like, envision her at a bookstore, like, on a podium, being like, it might not change the world, but you fucking asshole, it might change you pal. And so, like, I feel like that is a little bit of, like, the sense that I got, yeah,

Cortney Lamar Charleston 30:41

that makes complete sense, right? We're starting with the provocating question, right? Will poetry change the word Yeah? Will poetry change the world, right? And it's like, you know, if, to your point, like, if this whole poem had been written in italics, for some reason to kind of, like, evoke that internal thought. It reads the exact same way. It makes perfect sense in that context, right? No one asks this about football, right? Literally, you can see the gears turning right, which is why I think the poem is so is so effective and so and one that really kind of like resonates with me personally, because it is an unraveling right, of the central question, slowly but surely, through all of these different reference points, right? You know, no one says this about football, no one says this about doctors and nurses. Everyone understands what they do, and everybody understands what a rabbi does and a priest does and an Imam, right? And everybody understands what a cook does, and you know,

Traci Thomas 31:44

essentially, why those people are valuable, not just what they do, but, like, the value that they add to society,

Cortney Lamar Charleston 31:50

exactly, exactly,

Traci Thomas 31:52

and also that, like, a cook, it doesn't necessarily have to change the world to have value in it, right? Like, that's the other thing is, like, she's like, Yeah, we might not change the world. Like, that's not really, I'm not setting out to change the world with the poems. Yeah, no.

Cortney Lamar Charleston 32:07

100% I think, like, you know, that's why I kind of love the thought we land on at the conclusion, right? Where it might, poetry may not change the world, but it, but it might change you that that sentiment, because, at the end of the day, right? I don't think it's a fair expectation of any person, of any practitioner of anything right to be someone who changes the world like we change the world through our sense of collective understanding and concern and care for one another, and we decide new ways of being based upon that. I'm just a participant in that as a poet, right? You're just a participant in that. But we all kind of play that. We all participate in our own in our own ways, right? And it's that participation that should be honored and valued, and we honor it and value it in the ways that you know, in the in the examples that the poem kind of walks us through, we can understand, right, that we have people who heal, we have people who entertain, we have people who feed others, you know, and poets are just people who do that in a different type of way. You know, thinking about my own journey with poetry, it's like I was drawn to it because I, I do feel like there is this just, you know, indescribable and undeniable kind of power within it, right? And so you see that, and you want to harness that. So you kind of go into it like, oh man, like, maybe I can change the world, but that is putting too much of a burden on what you're on, what you're here to do. You're here to help us move as much as we can in your own way, and it's up to everyone else around you to do the same in their own way.

Traci Thomas 33:50

I feel like when we think about like, thing, events or people that change the world, we think about them for the one thing that they've done, or, like this one moment, but it doesn't take into account that, like, perhaps, you know, like, this poem might change you person, right, right? But if person, a then goes on to change the world, in some ways, the poem is part of changing the world. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, yes, yes. We think so much of like world changing as being like this happened, but we don't think about all the people and the things that filled up that person to have this brave moment where they stand in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square, right? Like, we don't know what poem that man read, like that student read, or like we don't know what, what food nourished them, or what doctor healed, or any of these things that are part of changing the world. And so I think that ending also does that, which is like, poems might not change the world you're right, but they might change you in some small way that leads you to do something, that leads someone else to do something, that all of a sudden we have this moment that changes the world. And I sort of love this idea that is kind of in the poem. I think starting a poem with a question. And sets up a reader who's nervous about poetry, someone like me, to know that, like, I'm going to get an answer. So if I keep reading, there's something at the end of this for me, in a way, that sometimes when a poem just starts, I'm like, where is this going? What is this like? I don't feel situated. I feel adrift in the world of the poem. And so I really, I think that also is really nice about this poem is it's like, thesis, will poetry change the world? Here is my response, or, like, prompt response. And so I think that also makes this poem, like, really accessible, as you were saying, not not only through the language, as you noted, which is the obvious, but also through just the formation of like, we're going to keep going, because at the end of this thing, I'm looking at these four stanzas, I know at the end of these four stanzas, I will have some kind of an answer

Cortney Lamar Charleston 35:48

that's a great call out. Actually. I really love that you brought that up. Right? What a careful and generous and gentle instruction. This is right? This poem kind of like comes across as like, for those who are listening, right, I definitely encourage you to check out more of Evie shockley's work, right, because I just think her, her presence and her mind, right, are so, so good at this very thing of kind of breaking down the complex into digestible increments, right, and kind of leading us to a revelation. And yes, that prompt at the beginning, we were talking about it kind of more so situationally as being like, Oh, could this be more of an internal thought, right in response to, kind of, maybe someone asking this question. But equally, right, by the time we have this realized thing, it becomes the way, or repeatable way to kind of instruct, right? And we can kind of lead people to this conclusion over and over again, because we've now done the thought work, and we've left it here on the page, and I can give it to someone else, and they will take the exact same message away, and I'm like, that is the mark of a great of a great educator as well.

Traci Thomas 37:01

Okay, before I let you get out, you have a brand new book. Tell people about it.

Cortney Lamar Charleston 37:07

Yes. So I just recently published my third full length poetry collection titled, it's important I remember with Northwestern University Press in February, and it is, I would say it is a an expansive kind of meditation, kind of on this, on this contemporary moment, agitated by the the rise right of a very powerful kind of Neo fascist, autocratic, you know, political movement within this country, and this book is largely grappling with that by turning to the archives right for narratives of resistance, of resilience that inform and provide insight and provide resolve for living through and resisting the same fight in this current moment that I feel we've been fighting for centuries.

Traci Thomas 38:00

Amazing. Well, thank you for coming. Thank you for doing poetry therapy with us. We will link to your new book in the show notes, and also to your other two books. And everybody, if you haven't read doppelganger, we have a whole episode on it, so you should check it out. It's with Nate Marshall, well Courtney, thank you so much for being here, and thank you for doing a session with us.

Cortney Lamar Charleston 38:19

Thank you very much for having me. Traci was a lovely conversation. I was so happy to get a chance to talk with you about evie's poem.

Traci Thomas 38:32

Now we're joined by poet and essayist Camonghne Felix. Her debut poetry collection, build yourself a boat was long listed for the National Book Award in 2019 She is also the author of the memoir dyscalculia, which she was a guest on the stacks to discuss a few years back. And her newest book is a memoir manifesto called let the poets govern. All right, everybody. She's back on the stacks. I love her. You love her. We all love her. It is Camonghne Felix, poet, nonfiction writer, memoirist, all the things. Welcome back, Camonghne

Camonghne Felix 39:11

thank you. I'm so glad to be back. I love this podcast. You're amazing. Lucky me and I know that like you are, you've been spending a lot of time with poetry over the last couple of years, and I'm excited to talk to you about it. Let's go.

Traci Thomas 39:26

I'm so excited. Before we before we do that, can we just take like, a few minutes tell the people about let the poets govern. Sure. Have a new book. It's out in the world. It's very good. Tell them

Camonghne Felix 39:39

let the poets govern. It is meditation on how language, how poetic language, shapes our political history, and if we're lucky, shapes our imagination of our political future.

Traci Thomas 39:53

Could we convince you to run?

Camonghne Felix 39:55

No, oh no, there will never be a president.

Traci Thomas 39:59

Felix, praise God. Let the poets govern. Is more like let those other poets govern.

Camonghne Felix 40:03

Yeah. It's like, let everyone be a poet, and then we can all self govern.

Traci Thomas 40:10

Okay, self government. Okay, great, great, great. Yeah, all right, the poem you pick for poetry therapy is, if we must die, by Claude McKay, I'm gonna read it for everyone, and then we're going to talk about it. If we must die, let it not be like hogs hunted and penned in our inglorious spot while round us bark the mad and hungry dogs making their mock at our accursed lot. If we must die, oh, let us nobly die so that our precious blood may not be shed in vain. Then even the monsters we defy shall be constrained to honor us, though dead. O kinsmen we must meet the common foe, though far outnumbered, let us show us brave and for their 1000 blows deal one death blow what though Before us lies an open grave like men will face the murderous, cowardly pack pressed to the wall, dying but fighting back. Okay, that's a poem. I usually will read a poem out loud for the first time and be like, What is this mess? Not this poem. I said, this is a sonnet. This is an iambic pentameter. And I was like, Baby, I have learned about these. Okay, a thrill, a thrill, a thrill. And also, like, I felt like, I kind of, you know, understood the title. The title is doing a ton of work. And I was like, Okay, if we must die, he's gonna tell us how he wants us to die, how we're gonna go down. And I also noticed and appreciated, not only is this a sonnet, but it feels like it is in conversation with Shakespeare's sonnets, the accursed, the big O's. There's so much antithesis, there's so much push and pull. I was legitimately excited about this poem. I never feel like I get a poem and I felt like I was like, I'm here, I'm here. So that all that being said, Why did you pick this poem?

Camonghne Felix 42:16

So I love a lot of different poems for a lot of different reasons, but over the last couple of years, poetry that is more, I don't know. I want to say, like, radicalizing has been kind of like, hard for me to spend time with, because so much of what I'm thinking about and working towards is that, but I was thinking a lot about, like, how we insist on resistance, and what that looks and sounds like. And I thought about this poem, which, like you said, is a sonnet in iambic, and because of its like, like you said, it's in conversation with Shakespeare. It is traditional, but brings to Earth this kind of non traditional way of thinking about how we survive and how we survive oppression. And so I brought it because I am feeling really moved by it. And, yeah, I mean, at first I was like, I'm gonna bring a love poem. And then I was like, No, I'm gonna bring the poem that matters right now to me.

Traci Thomas 43:23

So I love it. I love that you brought the poem that matters to you. Okay, so let's talk about what we sort of are seeing in this poem. What is exciting? Do you know what year this poem was written?

Camonghne Felix 43:35

It was written in 1919 or published in 1919

Traci Thomas 43:40

Okay, that's what I was thinking. I know that Claude McKay is like from the Harlem Renaissance. And I think, like, you know, I love Shakespeare. I have a background in Shakespeare. Nothing makes me happier than Iambic pentameter, like, it is truly like my like, I see I am, big Pentameter everywhere, like Sam I Am, you know, like I am, that's an iambic. It's, yeah, it's not pentameter, but it is iambics. Where it is I am. But what I feel like is really exciting about this poem is this doesn't just feel like a meditation on if we must die. It feels like an invocation or like a calling. It feels so performative. Like, Oh, kinsmen, oh, let us know. Believe like, it's like, it's not just like, if we must die, how sad. It's like, you guys, we're gonna do it. And I just feel like, ah, there's a performance in the text to this that I just, I don't know. I just love I just loved it. And I could feel it from the first line, that first line, if we must die, let it not be like hogs like, it's just like, so good. It's so good.

Camonghne Felix 44:52

Yeah, and when I think it's so funny that you say performance, because when I think about this poem, I think of it as like. You know, before a protest or before some sort of action, right? There's always the person, the orator who, like, has to, who has to, like, gather people, right? And, like, set the tone for what kind of energy we should be moving towards the goal with. And this feels exactly like that, like this feels like before everyone gets on their horses with their swords like, you know, like we are starting here, if we must die, let it not be like hogs, right? And I think this is the kind of poem that does more than mobilize, but it energizes, right? It like, in some ways, it like, defies the fear of death, right? Like you, you hear this poem, and like you are ready. You are ready for death with the understanding that either way you win, either way you succeed, right, whether you live or die.

Traci Thomas 45:52

Yeah, it's like such a rallying cry, exactly a beginning. It feels firmly like a beginning of moment. It's like curtain up, yeah, we're going out there. And if it goes bad, if it goes bad and it could, it could go bad, let's do it this way. Let's not do it the way that everyone else does it. Let's not let them win. You know, like we might die, but we're not gonna fucking die like some punks.

Camonghne Felix 46:18

Yeah, we're gonna die with strength, with power, right?

Traci Thomas 46:23

And also, like that, dying is not the worst thing. The worst thing that is dying like hogs, right? Like the worst thing is dying so that they can mock us, yeah.

Camonghne Felix 46:35

And also, it's like hogs, the way that we treat hogs, the way that we treat animals, right? Of course, we can compare that with the way that whiteness has treated black people, continues to treat black people, right? So to say that let us not die like hogs, it's not just a direct suggestion, but it is like a demand, right? That says like we are not animals, we do not die as animals, no matter what they try to tell us, no matter how much they make us feel like animals, we are not that. We are humans. We die with honor.

Traci Thomas 47:09

Yeah. And for people who aren't familiar with the sonnet, it's a 14 line poem, I they don't have to rhyme, but a lot of them do. But it's line, if it is rhyming, it's A, B, A, B, and then the end there's a two line couplet that rhymes with itself, and that usually involves a volta or a turn of the whole poem. I mean, that's the shakespearean sonnet. That's what this is. Not all sonnets follow that, but that's what what these are. And so I feel like when you when you know that, and you look at each chunk, especially that first chunk, the argument therein is so good it's like if we must die, let it not be like hogs hunted and penned in an inglorious spot while round us bark the mad and hungry dogs making their mock at our accursed lot like that is a whole World of a poem right in those four lines. And I think what's really interesting also about this poem is like, we know Claude McKay is black. We know what was going on in America in this moment, but because it's not explicitly said, this can be a rallying cry for so many people who feel like they have been treated like hogs, or that they are being mocked that, like, like that the dogs are mocking them, right? Like that is low, right? Like to be humiliated by animals. And so I think, like, I think that's also kind of a cool thing about this poem, is, like, if you know the context, and you know the history, it works. But also, if you don't, if you come to this poem and you have no clue who Claude McKay is, if you feel that you are a person who has been marginalized or, yeah, up against a singular right, yes, yes, it could be. It could be. You know, you could be a student who feels like your teachers are against you. You totally a trans person, like there's just it is, not only is it like a starting point, but it also invites so many people in who hasn't felt like that. I mean, I guess there probably are white men who haven't felt like this, but sure, most people I just it, just it just works so good. It just works so good.

Camonghne Felix 49:21

I mean, it makes me think about Rafat alarir, martyred poet, professor from Palestine. He wrote the poem if we must die right, which is clearly in conversation with Claude McKay's, if we must die right. I don't necessarily know that, like it was directly inspired, but Rafat was a scholar of poetry, and you know, it matters too, that like Claude McKay is, or was Jamaican, right, as you know, and let the poets govern. I talk a lot about resistance and rebellion, especially across the Caribbean. In and the tone of this poem is, like, in alignment with the energy, particularly, of like, socialist and communist movements during this time, right? This idea that like violent resistance is the only way to resist racist violence, right? And so, like, when I think about the connections and the relationships between those two poems, it's a reminder, almost going back to what you said, right? That like oppressed people, are linked not just in the fact of oppression, but in the fact of resistance too, right? Like oppressed people, we can write poems about dying all day, but there's a difference between writing a poem about dying at the hands of violence, versus like dying with dignity, right? Dying by having owned or with owning dignity. I think I saw somewhere that someone said that this poem is about grace. I don't think that's true. Grace is in some ways, about submission, right? Like, almost to the fact of opposition. You say, Yeah, okay, in the face of this, I'm, I'm going to survive with grace. I'm going to give everyone the chance to hurt me, let me down and give myself the chance to recover, right? But I feel like neither or Claude McKay's poems are about dying with with grace. It's about dying in power, right?

Traci Thomas 51:21

Yeah, it's, I mean, the last line pressed to the wall, dying but fighting back. Yeah. I don't think it's about grace at all. That's not a word I would use. I think it's about dignity. I think it's about fighting. I think it's about being in control, or, like, attempting for control. Like, I think if you are allowed to choose your own approach to death. You could choose a graceful death as an act of resistance, right, depending on the moment, but I don't think that this poem no calling for that certainly

Camonghne Felix 51:52

A graceful death, you know, you hang yourself from the gallows, right? I want people to see that like I was in control of my own death, and that I, like, let myself submit to what was coming to me, right, but like, pressed to the wall dying, but fighting back right, like that is must and must.

Traci Thomas 52:13

It's not when we die, right? It's like, if we must, if this is the must feels like, really important.

Camonghne Felix 52:21

Yeah. And the other thing too about this poem that's really special is that there's the old O, right, which is singular O, exclamation mark, and so, like, you know, a sonnet can be about tragedy, right? A sonnet can be comedy, right? But a sonnet, it can also be, and is often, often shows up as a love poem, right? And also a love poem can also be Elegy, right? And so I feel like this poem in particular is showing up as an ODE and elegy because it like captures, it captures the traditional sonnets, meter and music to say something that competes with the understanding of, like, who owns the sonnet, who owns the meter, and also, just like a celebration of the people who survive, right, of the people who survive death, because that's the other thing, right? Like, that's so special about this, about this poem, right? It's like, pressed to the wall dying, but fighting back. Right? He doesn't say press to the wall dead, but having thought back, right, it's like a suggestion that like dying and fighting happen are parallel, sort of like experiences parallel actions, and that even in fighting and even in death, there is survival after. And so I think that the O is very much an ode to that after and also an ode to the people who have to survive beyond their own death, you know, yeah.

Traci Thomas 53:51

And also the O is, to me, an indication of the performance piece. Yes, you don't owe like that to yourself exactly you don't Oh, that is something like, cannot be inside interior monolog. There's no Oh, right, like, and I like to what you were saying. It's like, it's not dead, and having fought back, also, that has a little bit of hope in it. We're not dead yet. We're dying, but we're still here, like even in this we're still here. I just can still win. There's a chance for us. I love the O not to get too poetry nerdy, but because I love iambic pentameter, one of the other things about this poem that I think is really as exciting is like in iambic pentameter, you know, you know, you know. But people might not know you've got, it's two feet, so you've got, D, dum, D, dum, D, dum, D, dum, D, dum, but it would be really boring if every line was, you know, shall be constrained to honor us though dead. Oh, Kinsman, we must meet the common foe. That's boring. Yeah. What makes I am a contaminant? Great and fun is when you have these things, they're called trophies, where you switch the feet. So instead of going D, dum, you go dumb, D, so you get this O and an O, that's got to be the main one. You can't, you can't start Oh, so in that section, like, shall be constrained to honor us, though dead. Oh, kinsman. Like, it's like, and I love, there's a lot of trophies in this poem. I mean, anything can be you as the reader can decide. But some of them, I feel like, are really obvious, and I also really appreciated. Like, I just an O starting a line, oh, kinsman. Kinsman is also such a great word. Okay, let me just ask you this one question. You sort of touched on it. Why do you think he chose to write this poem in this format and style?

Camonghne Felix 55:53

Yeah, well, sonnets were really popular in the early 1900s but the sonnet, also, as a Shakespearean tool, is an opportunity to, like, be in conversation with the future and with the past, right? I think that the sonnet being a traditional form, and then bringing this kind of, I don't want to say untraditional, but sort of like frowned upon sense of resistance, right, bringing that poem to this archaic form, right? Gives us an opportunity to double back on the assumptions of history, and also to sort of like interrupt or disrupt history, right? And to disrupt the future. Wanda Coleman, who was the originator of what's called the American sonnet, is sort of like writing, or was writing in this tradition, right? Like, how do we take the sonnet, break it and still maintain its music, right? It's meter, sometimes breaking the meter. All of those things allow us to revisit and have a new relationship to this on it. And I think that this poem is that exactly right, like saying to the reader, not just that, like this form is yours, but also that, like this form can contain the energy that we need to move forward and like, even if it wasn't intended to do that, it's still ours, and we can own it. And then the other thing too is that, like when we read a poem, especially like iambic pentameter, right for the most part, the reason why we have meter and feet is because we're either following the sort of like natural inflections of voice, right, of like everyday voice, or we're contradicting those natural inflections as a way to create a different kind of music. And the sonnet is so familiar right to the church, to just like music, right, the music that we love, the kind of conversations that feel like music. And I think when it comes back to performance, this form again, allows for the voice to take up all the space that it needs, right? And to do something similar that like Psalms and prayers do, right, which is to, like you said, invoke while at the same time, like allowing for a kind of softness that I think, like in this poem, is reserved for the people who must die in order to survive. You know, does that, if that makes sense

Traci Thomas 58:41

yes, of course. I'm obsessed with you, Camonghne, you're just the best. I'm so glad you do this with us. Thank you for picking this poem. This was a perfect, perfect choice for me. I'm so happy about it, and I never read it, so I'm thrilled to to know it now. Thank you

Camonghne Felix 58:59

You're welcome.

Traci Thomas 58:59

Now next up, we are joined by Nate Marshall, who is a friend of the pod, an award winning poet, writer, editor, educator and rapper, known best for his poetry collections finna and wild hundreds. He has been a guest on the podcast a few times, and he is back today to discuss Ric Flair doesn't love Richard flair, a poem from the collection self portrait as the eye in Florida by P Scott Cunningham. All right, everybody, our next poet is friend of the podcast. Wonderful, talented, I say Marshall. I don't know what else we're supposed to say. You all have heard Nate Marshall. He's one of the original founding members of poetry therapy Institute. You know, he and I have the group chat with Jose. You know, I pretend to be a poet with them. You know, they advise every poetry related decision I've made in the last three years. And so. So it is insanely impossible to do this without Nate. So Nate, welcome back.

Nate Marshall 1:00:06

What's up? Greetings, all.

Traci Thomas 1:00:09

After all of that, you're just like, Hi. Wait before we get into this, you've got something new coming.

Nate Marshall 1:00:18

Yes, I have a new book coming out next year. We'll see next year. I think, yes, it's definitely next year. I don't know why I'm being coy about that.

Traci Thomas 1:00:26

It's poems.

Nate Marshall 1:00:28

It is poems. We're debating the title. So TBD

Traci Thomas 1:00:34

okay, we won't do too much of that. We're here to talk about a poem that you've picked for us. You picked a poem by P Scott Cunningham. It's called Ric Flair doesn't love Richard Fleur, or however you say that, I'm going to read it out loud to you and to everyone, and then we're going to talk about it. Okay, Ric Flair doesn't love Richard Fleur. Some men won't say they love dancing until you call it something else, until an elbow or an ear is bleeding until a hand removes a belt. When the night arrives, the mind takes its turn beneath the needle, digging up the grooves as it goes. There's no such thing as old wounds. Is there for a father, for a son? If a map has been drawn, there's a country to match it, three colors on a flag and a song. Do you remember a time before your face resembled your heart red and bruised like a tomato that rolled off the table full start, you can't fake faking it anymore. Your face, your eyes, your ears. There's too much written on the pages for the cover not to hold a book. Pretend you say, as if giving advice to die enough times and death will begin to feel like forgiveness for the crime of waking up, take off all your clothes and run, repeat the fall you've always rehearsed, and it feels so good to lose. Every loss hits just like the first. The more you bleed, the safer you feel. You've watered so much of this world with yourself. Richard Fleur, even unnamed, you could never disappear. Okay, I'm just gonna be honest with you. I don't, I'm not sure I get this problem at all.

Nate Marshall 1:02:21

Okay, lovely.

Traci Thomas 1:02:22

Okay, I get some of it. I know that Ric Flair is a wrestler, so I recognize that I did Google after my first read, oh, you're wearing a shirt. I guess that's for him. I see. I did Google that Richard Fleur, or however you say it is Ric flair's given name. I guess he wasn't born. Ric, flair, crazy,

Nate Marshall 1:02:41

Yes he was stolen as a baby. It's a whole thing.

Traci Thomas 1:02:46

Oh, is that true?

Nate Marshall 1:02:47

Yeah. Never mind. Never mind. I don't want to Yes, but,

Traci Thomas 1:02:52

okay, okay, okay, okay, so I understand that this is, like, about wrestling. And I like, you know, I'm working. I'm working with the idea of notice and wonder when I talk about poems. So here's what I've noticed about the poem. I noticed that there's some sort of, like, maybe some slant rhyming going on. I've noticed that there's some descriptions of things that happen in wrestling, but maybe, like, in a different way. I also noticed there's some things I have no idea what they're what he's talking about, like, I don't know about flags in wrestling. I don't know if that's a thing. So that's what I'm noticing. And then what I'm sort of wondering about is, how much about wrestling do I need to know to get this poem,

Nate Marshall 1:03:41

yeah, for sure. So, so I think those are, those are good noticings, some other things that I would sort of notice about the poem. All the stanzas are like four lines each, right? Yeah, which kind of, I don't know what, but for a poem that takes, at least in part its subject as wrestling, is, how can I say this? There is something about that that intuitively makes sense to me, right? Like you think of a ring as this sort of like square thing, right? This thing. And so to have the, yeah, the shape of the poem kind of mimic that makes some intuitive sense to me. So it's funny, right? To me, this is a poem that engages wrestling, but it's not about wrestling. What the poem this poem depends on is the first stanza, right? This first four lines, some men won't say they love dancing, until you call it something else, until an elbow or an ear is bleeding, until a hand removes a belt, boom and so like for me, in large part, right? I think about this poem as a kind of like a meditation on male emotional landscape and what we either give ourselves access to or foreclose. About ourselves, which, in a lot of ways, I think, is, like, frankly, one of the sort of, it's one of the, like, common themes of professional wrestling as, like a storytelling tradition, right? Yeah. Not that there are women, but there, but yeah, it is very masculinist, and is, in certain ways, very much about the sort of love and hate and, like, broad, emotional, you know, it's that is the kind of theater that it is, a sort of broad, rough theater.

Traci Thomas 1:05:25

And I feel like I did, like, pick up on sort of the like masculinity as maybe, like cover for intimacy in the poem, like I, you know, I do think that the title, like signals a lot in this poem. It's like, okay, Ric Flair, great. We're talking about wrestling like, that's it's like, like, if you like Hulk Hogan, it's like, okay, well, I know where we are. Whereas, at this time, if this poem had a different title, even something like, you know, in the ring or something, and maybe that's a little too on those but if I had like, a different title that was, like, a hand removes a belt. I don't know that I would necessarily associate it with wrestling, but because the name does so much, I feel like my first thought is always like, okay, wrestling performance, masculinity, like that. It is a that is fake. Like, you know that it's a kind of performance and so like, I definitely think that that, like, triggered me to look for those things in the poem. But like, as we get deeper into it, where it's like, is there a father for a son? Is there for a father for a son? Like, this whole section about the map and the flags, I don't I just felt like I was like, I don't know. I don't know.

Nate Marshall 1:06:37

Well, so one, I'm glad you brought up the title, because the title, I think, is actually really important too, in terms of seeing into the theme. So the title of this kind of tips, tips its hand if, and I mean, this is, this is a thing that I think is true about poetry, and I love about poetry, that's also true about professional wrestling, that I love about that form as well, is that you can engage it and it gives what it gives. And you can have an enjoyable experience without, like, having much context or knowing much more. But I do find that, like, these kinds of performances are conversations, and the longer you've been listening or the more you've been paying attention to the conversation, the more is revealed to you. So this title right puts this poem in a kind of direct and conscious lineage with several other poems, right? So specifically, in terms of modern poetics, would be the poem someday I'll love Frank O'Hara, right? By Frank O'Hara, right? And then the poet Roger Reeves has a version. Someday I love Roger Reeves. The poet ocean Vong has a poet. Someday, I love ocean Vuong, right? And so again, right? You have this series of poems that is about, like self love, about the artifice of self and the sort of making of self hood, particularly how one deals with those from a kind of, like male or masculine perspective, right? And so all that's like there in the in the title, which you, if you have, like, a sense of this sort of lineage, then like, more opens up to you. If that makes sense.

Traci Thomas 1:08:09

But like, what if I don't?

Nate Marshall 1:08:10

Well, I think it's again, I think to, at least to my reading, right? I think it is still there, right? Because even without that first line, some men won't love, won't say they love dancing, until you call it something else. So we get this thing about, like, Male Performance, about what men are allowed to love and not allowed to love. Men are insecure, right? Absolutely no, absolutely right. The thing I'm thinking about, too is I, so I know Scott, he's, like, he's a friend. This is, like, a pretty new book, so I haven't had a chance to, like, talk to him a ton about it, okay, and so. But a thing I realized, like, so this, the book that this comes from, is called self portrait. Is the eye in Florida, right? Scott is, like, a very, very much a sort of Florida and specifically South Florida poet. But, like, I don't actually know how much Scott knows about wrestling, either historically or contemporarily. He has obviously, like, some familiarity with the form. I don't think you write a poem about Ric Flair if you don't, right?

Traci Thomas 1:09:12

Yeah, yeah.

Nate Marshall 1:09:13

But again, but like, one of the things that I think fascinates me about this, or that I really like, is I always think of poems as sort of working in layers, right? Part of what I mean is that it reveals, the more other stuff you know, or the more that you can bring to it, it kind of becomes a different poem. But that doesn't mean that if you come in knowing very little about, you know, either the history of poetry or or sort of contemporary poetry or pro wrestling, I think there's still stuff here, right?

Traci Thomas 1:09:43

Yeah, can I ask a question about an actual like, part of the part of the book, like, or part of the poem is like, in the first part, he's talking sort of like, broadly, and then we get in the fourth stanza, do you remember? A time before your face resembled your heart, and then in the fifth Sam that you can't fake it anymore. So I'm wondering, like, when something like that happens in the poem where it switches who's being addressed, or, more specifically, addresses a person like you. I took the you to be Ric Flair, but is the you like, what do you make of that kind of switch in a poem? What does that signal to you?

Nate Marshall 1:10:28

Yeah, so I also take that you to be Ric Flair, though, not only Ric Flair, right? Sure. Okay, like, like, Ric Flair is a vehicle in this right. Ric Flair, who is Richard floor, right? Um, is sort of legendary professional wrestler of the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, even, like, you know, he has a long ass career. He's still alive and kind of kicking around. But, like, one of the things about, uh, one the thing about pro wrestling, right, is not just that it's fake, right? But then you create a persona, right? You create a persona. And, as they say, like, in some ways, the best personas, or the best gimmicks are the ones that are sort of outsized versions of yourself, right? And especially the era that Ric Flair came came out of where, like, you know, the idea that all this was sort of phony and predetermined was not yet acknowledged by the actual participants, right? He is, in some ways, like one of the last of a kind of dying breed where, like, he really does seem to sort of live in the gimmick, right? And so, yeah, I think that that address becomes a DIRECT address to Ric Flair. And it also is a thing thinking about the way that men put on these sort of gimmicks, or these sort of artifices to obscure themselves, and you know, and part of like, what the title holds, is like you, this sort of larger than life character, version of this person cannot love the sort of part of you that might be more tender, that might be more true, and in that, yeah, we're talking to Ric Flair. But Ric Flair is also a sort of Trojan horse or vehicle for us to, like, talk to all men. I guess one, one thing that I am thinking about too in terms of, like, the end, right? So take off all your clothes and run repeat the fall you've always rehearsed. And whoo. It feels so good to lose. Every loss hits just like the first. The more you believe, the safer. Like, one of the things about Ric Flair, kind of as, like a as a character, as a sort of figure in the world of wrestling, is like he was very good at getting his ass beat, not only Ric Flair, right, but But in that sort of like thing of being good at just like taking an ass kicking, right? You know, in that there is blood, there is all this stuff, there is there are these sort of like manufactured vulnerabilities. And so I think the poem is kind of thinking about that, or thinking about, like, the way that this expression of performance of violence obscures like the real person, right? The more you bleed, the safer you feel. You've watered so much of this world with yourself. Richard, even unnamed, you could never disappear, right?

Traci Thomas 1:13:13

Well, I think the ending like that, like you could never disappear, thing is sort of being like, even though people don't know Richard, Richard is Rick? Right, right? Like blood, like the blood is the blood of Richard, even though you think it's Rick, like it, like it is Richard, who has done all the things. Who is the person inside, the person that everybody adores?

Nate Marshall 1:13:35

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely

Traci Thomas 1:13:38

wrestling. I feel like this is your secret way for me to get to talk about wrestling with you. Always, it's been a nightmare.

Nate Marshall 1:13:48

You, you enjoy theater, so

Traci Thomas 1:13:50

like, I do, I do. I don't. I don't have a joke. I don't have a problem with wrestling. I just don't know anything about wrestling, and I don't have the interest to get into it. Now, that's not to say that I wouldn't, but I'm like, I don't have I think wrestling. I think wrestling is so like queer, which I love. It is like, so camp. I think it is esthetically, it is like, second only to Broadway, you know, like the sequence and the spandex and the light cry and like the glitter, it's like the whole thing, even the like dirty hair, like I'm into the esthetics of wrestling, I just don't know that. Like I'm into being in a room with, like many men who are so hot for wrestling. Thank you for letting me go out of my comfort zone with both poems and wrestling. For people who have never read finna or wild hundreds, you absolutely should Nate's quite good at what he does. I hate to admit it, you know, but it's true, the poems are poeming. Thank you so much for doing this. Nate, you're the best.

Nate Marshall 1:15:00

Thank you.

Traci Thomas 1:15:08

And now I'm joined by Yesika Salgado, who is a poet and a sort of poetry activist committed to bringing poems to the people and bringing people to the poems. She's written three poetry collections, including Corazon Tesoro and hermosa, which won the Juan Felipe Herrera best poetry book award at the 2020, international Latino Book Awards. And her work has been featured everywhere, from the Los Angeles Times to Teen Vogue and beyond. All right, everybody, I am thrilled to welcome a fellow Angelino, a poet, an organizer, sort of a poet evangelist. She organizes poetry things. She talks about poetry things, and she writes poetry things. And came highly recommended from fellow poetry therapist, Jose Olivares. It is Yesika Salgado. Welcome to poetry therapy.

Yesika Salgado 1:16:03

I am so happy to be here, Traci, I actually, in preparation for today, have been listening to you all morning, so I feel like I know you. I just listened to your episode and so excited to be here with you.

Traci Thomas 1:16:19

Just the best.

Yesika Salgado 1:16:21

She's She's magic.

Traci Thomas 1:16:23

I love that so much. Okay, I'm gonna read the poem you picked. You pick midnight in the foreign food aisle by Warson Shire, and I'm just gonna read it to everyone. Yes, dear uncle, is everything you love foreign? Or are you foreign to everything you love? We're all animals, and the body wants what it wants. Trust me, I know the blonde said, Come in love. Take off your coat. What do you want to drink? Love is not haram, but after years of fucking women who are unable to pronounce your name, you find yourself totally alone in the foreign food aisle beside the turmeric and saffron, remembering your mother's warm, dark hands, prostrating in front of the halal meat, praying in a language you haven't used in years. Okay, that's the poem. Yes. Want to start. Let's just start with why, or what is it about this poem that you wanted to bring to therapy today?

Speaker 1 1:17:26

I mean, yes, I think we have to start with the poet herself, right? War, Sun Shire, who is brilliant. But I think for folks that are intimidated by poetry and think they don't know poetry. They've interacted with warson's poetry before. If you are a Beyonce fan, you've heard warson's poetry before. In the video album of lemonade, the spoken parts were Beyonce speaking between songs is warson's poetry.

Traci Thomas 1:18:01

I didn't know that.

Yesika Salgado 1:18:04

Yes. I've been a fan of Warson from when we were on blog spot and sharing poems on there, and she was amazing. And I was introduced to her through another poet, Safia Hilo. And Safia is amazing. And so, yeah, I think it's, I think we're all in communication with poetry more often than we know when we think we are. And I think Orson is a big part of that. And I mean, who, who doesn't enjoy Beyonce? And limit the limited

Traci Thomas 1:18:48

listening to this podcast, and you don't enjoy Beyonce, you can just stop, and you can unsubscribe, babe, because we not

Yesika Salgado 1:18:57

welcome here. We have deeper therapy to do, yes, as we have work to do. But of all of our poems, this is a poem that I often bring with me into writing workshops that I facilitate, because I think it, it brings in a level of vulnerability that is a little unexpected when people are reading poetry. I think a lot of times we think that vulnerable, vulnerability is coming out and confessing all of your deepest, darkest secrets immediately. And here Warsaw is speaking to an uncle and asking him questions while she's also confessing something too. And that's why the poem speaks to me.

Traci Thomas 1:19:38

I love it. One of the things that I, you know, like about this poem, and that I noticed right away is obviously that she's addressing a specific person. Because I think so often with poems, it's like, Who is this poem? Who's talking and who are they talking to? But I feel like the dear uncle, really, you know, pulls you in. It's like, okay, poet speaking to uncle, very clear. And I think like the use of the word foreign in the first two lines, like, is everything you love foreign? Or are you foreign to everything you love? Is such a provocative question to start off with. And I just like, immediately was drawn in the like, when I saw this, when you sent the poem, I was like, oh, okay, fun. I have a question. Who is the blonde? Do we know the blonde? Is the blonde? A specific person that we're supposed to recognize this quote from?

Yesika Salgado 1:20:35

I think, no, I think the blonde is supposed to just represent loving. What's foreign, right? Like, okay, you know, if you don't know war son, like of her background, she is, I am blanking on her nationality, right now, I do not Somali. So, yes, so Warsaw. But Warsaw is a black woman living as an immigrant in another country. And so I think that this is the blonde woman. Is always a metaphor for so many things, right? And so like, you know, allowing ourselves to be othered and to be colonized and to be removed from our culture. And so the blind woman, I think, is representative of that, right?

Traci Thomas 1:21:13

I wasn't sure, because the We Are All animals, and the body wants what it wants. That's a reference to Mary Oliver, right? Okay, I wasn't sure she was supposed to be the blonde woman. Oh, like, if that was a Mary Oliver quote, or if this was, like, a, like, the blonde woman that he's sort of, you know, maybe dating, or whatever

Yesika Salgado 1:21:31

Yeah, I think it's, it's, you know, and that's the great thing try, too. That that I often talk about when I'm doing writing workshops with folks, is that the writer can have the intentions that the writer has, but we readers can receive it however. It is because I've talked about this poem in different groups of folks, and I've had folks that read it that identify as queer and think that the woman is somebody that Warson has been with. And I read the poem, or the or the eye, right, like we're not. We don't know if the eye and the the speaker in the poem is worsened, but they think that the speaker in the poem is the one that's up with the white woman, with the blonde woman. And then, and then I read it, and I think that it's the uncle and but I might be looking it in my heterosexual lens, and I think both can be true, you know, and the only person that can tell us the truth is Orson. But that's the beautiful thing about poetry, is that you get what you need from it.

Traci Thomas 1:22:30

Yeah, yeah, that's so true because I was being heterosexual, boring person, and you said it was the uncle, like imagination, exactly in the second or the third chunk of the poem where we get love is not, I guess, now, with what you've just said, I was sort of assuming that she was almost like calling out her uncle, but maybe she's calling out herself.

Yesika Salgado 1:22:55

I think it's both, because where the we're all animals and the body wants what it wants, right? Like, even though it's a nod to another writer, it's also her stating, like, I get it, Uncle, you know, yeah, like, I get it, like, you know? And because she says, Trust me, I know. And so she's like, I know. And so it goes, love is not haram, haram, but after years, right? I think it's just like, I know what, I know what's happening, but like, let's reflect a little bit,

Traci Thomas 1:23:27

right, right? And like this, it sort of starts like, sort of light and fun, but by the end, you have this image of a man on the ground in the store in front of meat, praying in a language that is assuming, assuming, not English, a language they haven't used, whatever that may be, but like, you have this really sort of distressing image. And I think what's great about this poem also is like it's so sensory. It's like the smells of turmeric and saffron, like the meat, the person, like, she really paints a clear picture. And I think sometimes in poems, we get sort of like, General, the moon, you know, but this is, like, feels so urgent and visceral, yes.

Yesika Salgado 1:24:19

And I'm a strong I'm a strong believer that the more specific you are in your storytelling, the more relatable it becomes, right? And that's something that many folks say all the time, and in I think that the fact here that it's like in midnight in the foreign food aisle, and any of us that have to shop in the foreign food aisle already know how that differs from all the other aisles in the grocery store. And it changes according to the region you live in, right in Los Angeles, if you go to the foreign food aisle, it's it's Mexican, Central American, it's a very Latina aisle where you find the Goya and the. Herro and the beans and the things and all that, but it's where there's the most color in a grocery store. And I'm sure that any other place where you go, where you have different cultures coming in, all of that vibrancy is going to be within that all that color, all of the familiarity. And I know as people, we often migrate. We migrate far from our homes, and the one thing that we're always able to bring with us is our food. Is How We like recreate our cultures over and over. So I think it's really beautiful that she's questioning, like, how far away do we get away from our culture? But it's placing it somewhere where their culture has been packaged and is being sold in an aisle that implies that it's the only aisle that has their things in the whole grocery store.

Traci Thomas 1:25:51

And even just like this idea of you might want what you want, right? You might love what you love, your body might be called to be with the blonde woman, but on some level, your body's bringing you back to the food and the nourishment of home, right? Like it's like you might think this is what you want, but somehow you end up here.

Yesika Salgado 1:26:14

Yes, I mean, even at the end, right? Like you're remembering your mother's warm, dark hands, like that. You know that? Like, I think for me, it's almost like a repentance, right? Like, because he falls to his knees, and it's just like you've realized how far you strayed from home. And so here you are, yes, like my mom, and this woman does not look like my mom and isn't familiar to me. You know, because you find yourself totally alone in the foreign food aisle. It's like, Have you ever been grocery shopping, like, like, late at night? It's like, a really lonely experience when you're like, by yourself in a grocery store. Very sad it is because you're like, what life choices brought me to be here at midnight, trying to find Yes, the one ingredient for the one thing that I thought to do in the middle of the night. And so that's what I'm imagining, like

Traci Thomas 1:27:13

and then, like, the guys got, like, 70 bottles of sun kissed in front of you, checking you out, checking out. And you're like, how are we here together? I was, why do you need so much orange soda?

Yesika Salgado 1:27:24

I was a cashier at a seven at a CVS, a 24 hour CVS, and so I worked the overnight shift a lot of times early in my working there, and I've seen the guys at midnight in the foreign food aisle. What that looks like, you know? And, and it's a very lonely look.

Traci Thomas 1:27:48

what's what? What is he doing here? Well, this is an option

Yesika Salgado 1:27:51

for the Yeah, he's struggling with his life choices and his romantic choices, and, but it's even more than that, right? Like it's, it's, it's like earlier where, where she's quoting the blonde woman, and she says, Come in love, take off your coat. What do you want to drink? I like it's the implication that it could be, maybe like an alcoholic drink, and the fact that this is a man that, by the poem, by the context, stuff we've read is a Muslim man, and culturally, they don't drink. And so then Haram is mentioned, which is haram is what we Christians or Catholics will know as sinning, right, or going against our beliefs. And so it's like love is not haram, but you've been engaging with people that are taking you away from your beliefs and and who you are at your core. And, yeah, it's how many of us don't know that, you know?

Traci Thomas 1:28:53

Yeah, yeah. When I first read this, I read it as her, sort of, like, I thought of it as her, sort of like, castigating the uncle. But now I'm wondering if it's her, like, sort of being, like, more in cahoots, like, these are the two people in the family who have strayed, you know, like the two people who understand what it's like to be in the food aisle at midnight. Yeah, I don't know there's, I know there's not an answer, but I just that that interpretation just occurred to me during this conversation,

Yesika Salgado 1:29:23

yeah, especially the way that she's talking to him, it sounds like I get it, like I know, yeah, so she's called, she's holding him accountable, as somebody that's been through that before, you know, to be like, Look, I get it. We're gonna, we're gonna be with these people. We're gonna, we want what we want also, like, a questioning of like, how much have we assimilated to to this country that we're in that is so far from where we migrated from, right where, where we're now getting involved with the people that cost us to migrate, or the people that like look like, who's oppressed? Sing us here and now you're having all those conflict appealings in front of the sovereign, like in front of, you know, in in in front of the meat. I love