Ep. 392 The Ebbs and Flows of Friendship with Angela Flournoy

Written By Stacks Assistant

This week on the Stacks we are joined by writer and essayist, Angela Flournoy to discuss her new book, The Wilderness. Longlisted for the 2025 National Book Award and a finalist for the Kirkus Prize, The Wilderness is an expansive novel that covers the friendship of five black women over the course of twenty years. Today, we discuss how Angela managed to define the current era in her novel and what other works The Wilderness is in conversation with. We also discuss how being a maximalist affects her writing life.

In October, the Stacks Book Club will be reading Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, October 29th with Angela Flournoy returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Angela Flournoy 0:00

Hard on myself, I would say is, like, the negative way to put it honest with myself, I would the way that I would like to repackage that as, like, I'm not gonna lie, if it's not, if it's not good, it's not going in for this book, I did feel that it needed to be a little bit of a kitchen sink book, but it needed to have everything, because I wanted it to be generational, like I had that ambition for it. They put, I think, I don't know, on a lot of the marketing copy era, defining. And if there is an ambition I had, it was like, What is this moment that we are living in, and where are we going? And I did want to write that.

Traci Thomas 0:43

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by Angela Flournoy. She is an award winning novelist and writer, and today she is here to talk about her second book, The Wilderness, which has been long listed for this year's National Book Award. It follows the 20 year friendship of five black women over the course of their lives. Today, Angela and I discuss how she thinks about writing as a lifelong reader, why she wanted to write a book about black women and friendship, and how the content of her novel helped shape the way that the story is told. And we talk a bunch about hard novels, easy novels, and the types of books that excite us. Angela will be back on October 29 to discuss this month's book club pick Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes and an exciting announcement the stacks is now on YouTube. You can catch video clips and shorts at youtube.com our handle is @thestackspod, just like it is everywhere else. So go subscribe to watch videos of this conversation and all of our future conversations. If you like what you hear today, if you want more of this podcast, more bookish content and community, consider joining the stacks pack on Patreon by going to patreon.com/the stacks, and subscribing to my newsletter, unstacked, which you can find at tracithomas.substack.com, both of these places give you bonus content. Both of these places make it possible for me to make the show every single week. All right, now it's time for my conversation with Angela Flournoy.

Traci Thomas 2:14

All right, everybody. I feel like this episode has been like a long time coming, because I've been talking about this book since, I don't know, the beginning of time. It feels like I am so excited today to be joined by Angela Flournoy, her latest book is The wilderness, as at the time of recording, it is long listed for the National Book Award. Angela, welcome to the stacks. So happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you. Okay, we're gonna start with just tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? Where did you come from, and what is your sort of what was your relationship to books like before you became a person who writes them?

Angela Flournoy 3:00

I am from LA, LA County, la proper, all of the parts of it. I am. I've always been a reader. I was an early reader, and so books have always been like a big thing in my life. And I have known that I wanted to write, and since I was like six years old, so there's not a lot of time between me becoming literate and me wanting to be a writer. It's like three years maybe. So I've always thought about books both just like the pleasure of them, but how they work. Since I was very small, like reading CS Lewis, like Chronicles of Narnia, I've been like, how do these things work? That is just how my brain has always kind of functioned.

Traci Thomas 3:43

Okay, so when you're six and you're reading lion witch in the wardrobe, what are you thinking of? Like, this is how this works. Because I didn't start thinking about how books worked until like yesterday. So I'm curious, like, as a child, how you were thinking about, well,

Angela Flournoy 3:59

I was thinking about like, why do we see certain kids at certain time? Why do we why are some, like, things held from us until, like, the next book or the next book in the series? I just had a lot of questions about, like, Why was I getting the story when I was getting the story?

Traci Thomas 4:18

Oh, my God, okay, I'm obsessed with I want to spend the next hour on just this one thing. Okay, so follow up question. As you get older, as you start becoming like a writer, a professional writer, you're an adult, you're or you're thinking about it, you're working towards this goal of becoming a published author. As you're reading other books, are you? Can you enjoy a book even if you don't like how it works?

Angela Flournoy 4:45

I mean, if I don't like how it works, I'm probably not enjoying it, but, but I, I do believe in like, being a fan of like a book, like of reading and literature. First I remember, I don't know when. Was, but my very good friend Justin Torres was like, the problem with a lot of people in MFA programs, we were in an MFA program, when he said this, so like, 2009 or 2010 and he was like, is that they don't read for pleasure anymore. They are just reading like a writer, and I always read for pleasure. First, it's usually like, I am deep into a book, and then I'm like, Wow, this POV like, wow, she's doing it. Or there's something that I feel like you're not going to be able to pull off, but I'm like, Oh well, I'm having fun. We're going to get to the point where you don't pull it off, but until then, like, I'm vibing, so I'm going to keep reading reading, and then I'm it's like, another level of enjoyment. When I'm like, oh my god, she actually did pull it off. Like, wow, she did it.

Traci Thomas 5:42

Are you thinking as you're reading, this is what I would do? No, no, you're always just thinking like, this is where we are.

Angela Flournoy 5:50

They want to do. Are they going to be able to do it?

Traci Thomas 5:53

Okay, okay. So that's sort of how I read. I feel. I mean, I'm not a writer, so I'm never thinking this is what I would do. Ever do you go back and reread things with, like, more of a writerly brain if you're trying, like, if you're working on something like, oh, this author did a great job of this kind of point of view. Like, I want to go back and read this and kind of, like, figure it out from a writer standpoint.

Angela Flournoy 6:18

Yes, so often I'll be like, uh, I have a challenge. I need to cover like, a lot of time really quickly, for instance. And I will think of a book I love, you know, probably written by Edward P Jones or Tony Morton, or, you know, this, I have my favorites. And so they'll be, uh, I'll be like, Oh, let me just read like, 50 pages really quickly, just to be reminded, like, how do you handle time on a basic level? Because I think sometimes it's like the micro things that I will feel like, Oh, I forgot how to do this. Or I just need to be reminded of, like, a way to do it, not like I do it exactly like them. But yeah, so I often will think of somebody, or I'll ask, I'll phone a friend, you know, I'll be like, what are some books that do this very well? I think that's like, one of the best things that are in writers group chats that maybe the world does not see. People put it on, you know, threads or Instagram sometimes too, they ask, like, they ask the world. But I find that the books that writers have top of mind are not necessarily all books that came out in the last like five years, right? And I find that to be very useful, because everybody is like susceptible to trends, and writers are no different. So it might be a book in the last two years that was put out that does POV very well, but everybody is thinking about the way that that book does POV versus a book that came out 100 years ago that does POV very well, right?

Traci Thomas 7:41

Are there any trends in the writer world right now that you're particularly fond of and any that you're particularly annoyed by?

Angela Flournoy 7:51

No, I I mostly read to blurb and I'm in a very good position where most of the people I'm blurbing are people that I taught before, etc, that know what they're doing. So I'm not, and even if I'm ultimately like, Oh man, that draft I saw 10 years ago was better than this one, I know that they like have the toolkit. So I'm not, I'm not reading a lot of stuff that is just, that is contemporary, just because everybody else is reading it, and so I don't know what those trends are. And also most people are just like, not reading literary fiction.

Traci Thomas 8:31

Well, most people here with me are most of my listeners are not me. I'm trying not to read any literary fiction. That's not true either. I heard this about you. I do read fiction. Here's the thing I and I, we talked about this in Mississippi, about hard books, because I was like, Angela, is your book gonna be too hard for me? Am I not gonna like it? I just want to read something that is smart but also is feels, feels easy. I want the author to take me somewhere that I want to go. I want to come with you, but I don't want to feel like I'm having a work hard. I want you to make it like, you know, I want to be flying first class, right? Like, I just want this great ride with this great book, when you start making it that I got to figure out, and it's like, slow and heavy, and I'm trudging through it. I don't want that. That's not how I like my reading life to be. So I feel like sometimes in literary fiction there's like, this seriousness, there's a lack of, like, joy or excitement in the book. And I feel like what I really like about the wilderness is I can tell that you have a very intimate relationship with these women, like that, I am being let inside to these women, and even when they do stuff where I'm like, Desiree babe, like stop immediately. I like her. I want her to stop, not because I'm annoyed by her, but because you love her, and I now love her. And. So like, I think a lot of literary fiction misses that piece of it where it's like, I'm happy to go with you wherever you want to go. But like, can we have a nice time, even when it sucks? Do you know what I'm saying?

Angela Flournoy 10:12

Yes, I think, I mean, I think that there's a lot of reasons for that, and some of it, I wonder if you feel that way about, you know, literary fiction, where people even really calling differentiating, but, you know, books that have endured from like, the 70s, right, or the 60s. I think not that this is not going to be where Angela talks, you know, shit about a bunch of MFA programs. But I do think, and people have written about this, I'm not the first one that they're I think Brandon Taylor has like a sub SEC post about this that I read before. But this idea of like a sort of self defensive fiction, right? Like a fiction, a literary fiction that wants to try to preempt every criticism, like every bit of feedback, they're trying to get ahead of it, right? And they're also trying to prove that they have mastered the form when it's like, ain't nobody mastered the form like, that's not, that's not how the form works, because it's, you know, elastic and it's expansive. So that's the beauty of you can just keep writing these books because there's different things to try. But I think that sometimes that can be, it feels like work because it's like homework, right? Somebody's doing this because they want to get a gold star, versus, they have a set of interests. One of them could be to entertain the reader. Absolutely, that's one of them. But I have all these other esthetic interests that in the pursuit of them. Yeah, I want readers to feel like, wow, she was she did a big one. She was having fun, even though, like the subject matter is not always good, she was having fun trying to achieve these things.

Traci Thomas 11:47

What other interests do you have besides entertaining the reader?

Angela Flournoy 11:53

Well, you know, the more you read, the more your taste starts to like outpace your ability. So I with the wilderness I had an interest in writing about what it feels like to be a part of a group, which you would say I already did in The Turner House, but what it feels like to be a part of like a group that has history, but it's not as like big as like a family's, you know, lineage and what it feels like to be alive right now, right? And you have had been in your 20s, when I was in my 20s, and to have, like, the outside influences, and I wanted to do that on an esthetic level, like a book. I do believe that, like a book, if it's a book about someone rushing, has this quote about, like, if, if he wanted to write, this is talking about The Satanic Verses. If you wanted to write a book about immigration or migration, the form of it had to somehow like mirror what it feels like when that book begins with some people falling out of the sky and so similarly, this book had to feel like what it felt like to be part of a group, to be a black millennial woman in the last 20 years, to be aware of yourself, but also like insecure of how you come off to others, and also the rise of like self presentation that happened over the last 20 years because of social media. So there's a way that I had to structure the book. Some of the things that you might maybe in the beginning you did. It's okay, Traci, if you found it difficult, the jumping around in time also it has to do with, I don't want to give it all away, but it had to do with the way that time has changed over the last 20 years, related to our relationship to the internet.

Traci Thomas 13:34

I just want to say I actually like jumping around in time. I know that that is a thing that a lot of readers do not like. That's not a problem that I have. I like it. I think that comes from my reading of nonfiction, because a lot of times in nonfiction, like, you start at the end, then you go back to the beginning, then you work out the middle. It's like, so I don't have that problem. I have other problems, but not that particular.

Angela Flournoy 13:56

What are your problems? I feel like--

Traci Thomas 13:57

Well, so I don't want, I don't like, to work too hard. I don't I don't want my I don't want my fiction to feel like homework, that's for sure. I want there to be things that happen. I dislike just being with a person, just them living. I need something, and it doesn't have to be like a murder, like, you know, it could be, it could be anything. I mean, I think, like, there's a there's a section, there's a section in this book pretty early on, maybe like, third or fourth, because it's broken up, like you said, different time periods. Maybe it's a third or fourth where Nakia, who is a restaurant, she's a restaurant tour, and she's sort of like, at the beginning stages of this relationship with the person she works with and like stuff happens in that section. It's not like, you know, these huge life events, but like something is happening. I need my characters to be figuring something out. And sometimes I feel like characters are just living and I don't like that. That is something I don't like. I like them to be I, yes, I just need a. Little something. I usually say it's plot, but I'm realizing, like, there are character driven books that I really like. I think this book is pretty character driven. Things happen, but it's like, I mean, yeah, like you said, you're hanging out with a group, so it's a lot of just like, dynamics. The book has, like, a lot of dynamic flow. But something that clavis natara said on this podcast is that similar to what you were saying that Salman rush, you said, is, like, you have to match the content to the context. And I loved that. I mean, I don't know if she invented that, but that's what she says. And I was like, right? Because her book is about people who work at this resort, and so she's like, this is a labor book, and what is the job? You know, these people are all working, but what is the job of the reader? The job of the reader is to read. So she wanted to make her book so compelling that you didn't want to put it down, so that you were also working, like alongside the characters. And I was like, Sure, this makes sense. I'd never heard someone talk about it in that way. And now you're saying this, and I'm like, Oh, I guess this is something writers think about. Who knew you guys made plans? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Other things I dislike in books. I'm trying to think I sometimes just know it when I read it, you know? Yeah, I know. I don't like when people are, like, didactic. I don't, don't fucking tell me what to think. I'll tell you what I think when I get there. But I don't like the hand holding shit. I really dislike that.

Angela Flournoy 16:18

And it's, it's not what the form is for, right? Like you, yeah, I don't really think it's what any artistic form is for, but it's certainly not what like fiction is for, because you are supposed to that's the magic. Is like, I give you something, and then your brain, like, does the rest. So if I give you everything, why are you here? You know?

Traci Thomas 16:38

I don't need you to connect the dots. That's why I'm here to connect my own dots. And I think that's always like, that's one of my favorite things about a really good novel. Like, when we do Toni Morrison book club here, I'll be like, oh, and then my guests will be like, Oh, this other thing. And I'm like, Oh, my God, you're so right. I didn't even think of that. And then I'm like, oh, all these things are now connecting to what you just said that, that is, I am willing to read a harder book like Toni Morrison for For those reasons, though I still think, even though her books are hard, she doesn't, there's still that joy under them, like I'm still wanting to be with them. I'm not feeling like intimidated. It's a balance between I don't want you to be too much smarter than me, but I also don't want you to be but I also don't want you to be think I'm too stupid.

Angela Flournoy 17:24

Right. I mean, I think about it, I remember, I don't remember whose class I was in. Oh, no, I think it was Alan Gregory's is like in my MFA program a million years ago. And he was talking about, it was a check off class, and he was talking about which, who among us sometimes we flip ahead to see when there's dialog breaks me and he was like, it does not mean that you cannot have these pages and pages of beautiful narrative, but there is something on an elemental level about people speaking to each other, that when nobody does, it feels like the writer is being stingy, like the writer like you don't get that. You could just get this brain of mine, and you can't get any voices.

Traci Thomas 17:57

Yes, oh my gosh, that's, well, you know, I have a background in theater, so I love, like, I love a scene. Like, there are scenes in literature where I'm just like, yes, babe. I mean, Toni Morrison, I think famously, writes some of the that, like, there's those scenes, and tar baby the dinner table scenes, and like it is giving their so messy and like people talking to each other, and like the dynamic, like you can just feel the energy of those scenes. And when a book has a scene like that, like, just people talking, and I'm like, I am back in the Lyceum Theater in New York City. Like, I'm just like, This is life. This is what a book could do. So I do. I am, I am like, Please give me dialog. I mean, good dialogue.

Angela Flournoy 18:56

Our baby in particular, is like Morrison showing She can do anything anyone else can do. Yeah, it's like, you know, there's the there's like, very useful dialog. And you know, then there's in Morrison. Often the dialog feels like the people are saying something that is like, bigger than their like moment. But she has that entire baby, but then she just also has mess, like mess. These people at this table are crazy and dysfunctional, and they are saying and doing things, you know, sometimes like attacking each other physically, in addition to like and additionally to like emotionally. And there, she can do that too, and she can sort of balance that scene and make it feel like it makes sense next to these other more like introspective moments also, yeah.

Traci Thomas 19:44

I mean, she's, she was kind of good at writing books. It's crazy. No one talks about it, right? Like, oh, give Toni Morrison her flowers. Okay, wait, I have a very personal question for you about this book, true or false? Monique black in a. Tax was inspired by this very podcast. No, I just was like, oh, Monique, sorry that you stole my brand. Like, get a life.

Angela Flournoy 20:12

Also, famously, book has been worked on for so long.

Traci Thomas 20:16

Um, Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah also has a Stacks Pack in in his book, and I'm just like, Oh, you guys all just came up with this idea same time as me. How dare you?

Angela Flournoy 20:28

Well, you know, time is relative. I've been working on this book for a decade.

Traci Thomas 20:32

Traci, well, this podcast came out in seven, almost eight years ago. So you know, maybe I inspired you in a moment while you were working on it.

Angela Flournoy 20:41

Also, Were you ever a librarian? No, God, no. I feel like if you spend time with librarians, you'll hear the word the stacks a lot.

Traci Thomas 20:50

Well, I mean, I don't I'm not a librarian. Do I strike you as a person who could have ever been a librarian?

Angela Flournoy 20:55

Well, the title.

Traci Thomas 20:59

Makes me wonder. Well, how about my personal volume level? Does that seem like something a librarian could do?

Angela Flournoy 21:04

I don't think Monique is Monique is loud. She was a loud librarian.

Traci Thomas 21:09

Okay, well, see, maybe she was inspired by me. It's fine. You don't have to admit that you stole your entire book from this one very podcast. It's fine. I will have the lawsuit sent your way immediately.

Angela Flournoy 21:21

You could emphasize black in the title? That would be cute. I think, you know.

Traci Thomas 21:24

Black in the satchel. Now I can't change the title because A, it's been around for seven years, and B, we're having this conversation, and people will hear it, and then you should sue me. So now we're at an impasse. You and I, anything you say will be held against you in a court of law. Okay, I want to know about you. This is sort of, I don't normally like to ask fiction people this, but I am kind of curious about your friend group. Like, do you have a friend group that is similar to this book? Like, were you inspired by your own friend group? I have a lot of different sort of friend groups, but I know some people have like that, like, core thing going on. So I'm wondering if that is true for you, or were you just like, kind of curious, and this was the best way to make a friend. Novel work.

Angela Flournoy 22:06

I have several friend groups. I have my friends of over 20 years from undergrad. I have my line sisters for 20 years from undergrad. I'm a delta. I have a group of friends from grad school. I have a group of friends that I from LA, that I wrote alongside, and it's kind of all of that. And I also have a cousin friend group who this novel is dedicated to, and my sister, they were sort of my original friend groups. And so I think about all of those things, and I think probably my friends from college, my non Delta friends from college, would say that they are the dominant friend group in my life. But I think that there's been sort of, I'm an Aquarius, so I love to accept the ebbs and flows of friendships, right? Okay? And keep them all. I like to keep them all, you know, okay, but they may add and they may flow, yeah, so all of those were definitely in there.

Traci Thomas 23:09

My rising and my moon are Aquarius, thank you.

Angela Flournoy 23:13

But you are a Leo, right?

Traci Thomas 23:16

Rise. We're right across from each other. I was born on a full moon. That's what I found out. So apparently, if your moon is directly across your chart from your sun, that means you were born on a full moon. Wow, I've been away from LA too long because, yeah, you don't care about this anymore.

Angela Flournoy 23:31

No, I just am behind. I'm behind. I don't tell people my rising and my other things, because I don't necessarily identify with them.

Traci Thomas 23:39

Ooh. Okay, but now you have to tell us at least one. What's your rising I'm

Angela Flournoy 23:44

not going to tell you which one, but there's some Virgo in there.

Traci Thomas 23:48

Oh, you don't you do strike me as someone who could have Virgo. I just okay. Let me ask you this about because this is sort of a question I have about writing this book. You strike me as a very like, meticulous person, especially in your craft, just the way you talk about it, the way that I felt so taken care of in reading the book, I just felt like you put a lot of time and thought and specificity into this book, which strikes me as Virgo like. Is that actually how you write, or am I just projecting onto you? What is like your writing life actually look like?

Angela Flournoy 24:25

Well, it is. I'm very hard on myself, so there I maybe, maybe that's the like meticulous part, but I am, I'm very slow because I am very not that I was actually writing this whole, this book for 10 years straight. I was doing other stuff, but I am very slow. I'm very hard on myself. I would say is, like, the negative way to put it honest with myself, I would the way that I would like to repackage that as, like, I'm not gonna lie, if it's not if it's not good, it's not going in, and we're not. Yeah, it's just not and so I think that what good is changes. But for this book, I did feel that it needed to be a little bit of a kitchen sink book. My first book, also kind of was my next book will not be but, but it needed to have everything, because I wanted it to be about like, I wanted it to be generational, like, I had that ambition for it. I wanted to write a big social novel. I wanted to write, like, that kind of book, like they put, I think, I don't know, on a lot of the marketing copy era, defining, and if there is an ambition I had. It was like, What is this moment that we are living in, and where are we going? And I did want to write that, and that did take some meticulousness, but I would say in my like, personal life, I'm both. I can be very like, I don't care about these things. Yeah, the things I care about, I care about.

Traci Thomas 26:05

Got it? My friend has a saying where she says, same thing, don't care. Or, like, someone's like, oh, like, should I wear the purple or the blue? It's like, same thing. Don't care. And I like that, because I have that of my life too. Sometimes I'm just like, I don't this is stupid. But then there's things where I'm like, this is the most important grain of rice that has ever existed. And I can't believe no one else cares about this one small grain of rice. Speaking of sort of era, defining I was thinking about your book, in relationship to some of the stories that I love, both on the page, but also on screen, or just in general, about, like, black women's friendships. Do you think of your work in a lineage? And if so, what do you think of this book in a lineage with or tied to,

Angela Flournoy 26:52

like, a year ago? Maybe I don't have, what is time I was asked at some event to, like an early, early, early, pre pub event, to give like a like a comp, like a Hollywood comp, okay? And I said that it is as if, like, waiting to excel had a baby with a visit from the Goon Squad, okay? And I think that there are ways that both of those books, obviously one more as far as subject matter, but the other may be structurally. Are related to this book, and I also I read. I read, reread the woman of Bruce or place. I read Sula multiple times. I also started this book before insecure was on air. Shout out to Isa, my friend who we are going to be in conversation with so soon. He's very excited. And I was just really excited about it. I think one of the most exciting things about insecure towards the end is the beef is real beef. And I feel like, in order to when I think about, how do you keep a friend for decades? Sometimes it can just be you remain surface level for decades. But often you in order to go deeper, sometimes there has to be some kind of confrontation. And as a Leo, I'm sure you can identify with, like, conflict is not abuse, right? Like, Oh yes, I love a conflict. Sometimes we gotta mix it up to move forward. Yeah, this is something

Traci Thomas 28:31

that's very hard for me, because other people don't feel that way. And it's hard because sometimes I'll just say, You know what I'm thinking, believe it or not, I don't have a problem with that. And sometimes people don't like that so much. Often, oftentimes, most people don't appreciate it. And I'm just like, oh, just offering an opinion. Wasn't even trying to be mean, just letting you know, yeah, so hard to be a Leo

Angela Flournoy 28:59

that I really, I really

Traci Thomas 29:01

persevere. You know, I'm just such a fighter. Okay, we're gonna pivot a little bit something that we do on the show. It's called Ask the stacks. Someone has written in they're looking for a book recommendation. I'm gonna read to you what they are looking for. You're gonna give us one to three, but one is totally fine recommendations, and I will give a few two people who want to do this on the podcast. Email ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com. Okay, this one comes from Amber. I have really enjoyed your podcast and have recently and gladly rediscovered reading again. After becoming a new mom, our little one is three and a half. I'm feeling like I'm coming out of the fog of early parenting and realize that I don't quite know Who the f I am anymore. I would love any reads that you recommend that center in and around self discovery and for someone who was a parentified child, I have trouble engaging in play and enthusiastic joy, excited about any recommendations you might have that are novels or memoir you. I can go first, or if you have something off the top of your head, you can go first.

Angela Flournoy 30:04

You go first. Okay, so self

Traci Thomas 30:09

discovery is not something that I generally read about, like it's not something that interests me for the most part. However, there's a new book that came out this year that I haven't finished. I just started it, and I liked it, and I've heard great things about it. It's called Second Life by Amanda Hess, and it's all about being a mom and a parent right now, in this age of internet, it's not exactly about self discovery, but it is sort of about like, what the fuck it feels like to be like having a question about your kid and then, you know, Googling it and having all these apps and all this stuff to track you and tell you how to be a parent. And I think that that is sort of an interesting thing to think about in, you know, my kids are five and a half in this second phase of parenting, like you're out of the baby phase. You're now into the like, toddler, little kid thing. And it's like, Can I trust my instincts? Like, maybe I should, maybe I don't need all this shit. So that would be my first recommendation. My second recommendation would be a memoir. It's how we fight for our lives. By said Jones, it's his memoir about the death of his mom and him sort of coming into himself. I don't know if I fully say self discovery, but it is very coming of age. He's black, he's queer, he's in college. He's sort of figuring out who he is. He's also just such a beautiful writer that it's about life much more broadly than his own, in a lot of ways. And then my third one is sort of, I don't know why I picked this, but I don't it just felt right to me, which is The Mothers by Brit Bennett. It's about these teenage girls. I don't know if I can spoil any of it. I don't know what. I don't I read it a while ago, so I don't know what is a spoiler, but they're dealing with Mom Stuff, as you can imagine, because it's called the mothers, and it's just really good. It's a really great novel. I think it's a novel that is easy enough to read in the New parenting stage, if you're just coming back into reading, because sometimes, like, I know people struggle with kind of getting back into reading more difficult books, and it's sort of really smart and does so much, but again, it has that easy feel to it. You don't feel like you're working super hard when you read Brit stuff. How about you?

Angela Flournoy 32:18

So swear I'm not going to do this for everything, but if you want to read about a parentified child, my new novel The wilderness,

Traci Thomas 32:28

I was going to put your novel, but I was like, that's so inappropriate. Desiree, right? Is that who you're Yeah, to enjoy.

Angela Flournoy 32:36

But yes, there is motherhood is one of the themes in the book. And just like a meditation on motherhood, sort of generationally as well as like, there is a character who is a new mother, and the feeling of, when do I get back to myself is sort of central to her, her journey in the book. Another novel that I just picked up in Jackson, Mississippi. And I have not read yet, but I was on a panel with her, and she spoke really compellingly about this subject is the girls who grew big by Layla Motley, which is about actual children, like teenagers who become moms, who one of them is sent to Florida to have her child. And I'm very excited to read it. And I know from Layla writing that it should be both, like, you know, impactful, but also delightful, yeah. And we think of an older book, an older book, I'm going to take it all the way back to the street by Anne Petry, which is about a single mother in Harlem in kind of like, Harlem, Renaissance, Harlem. And it is not like, like, it's kind of dark, like, there are some dark things that happen, but it is about, how do you make a life that is better for your child and still try to, like, have a life.

Traci Thomas 34:03

Okay, Amber, if you read any of our picks, you have to tell us if we did a good job or not, if you if you still approve of us, if you hated our recommendations. We want to know. I want to know. Don't tell Angela. Tell me. I'll forward it to Angela. Don't worry. Don't spam her. But everyone else, you can get a recommendation read on air by emailing, ask the sax at the sax podcast.com and now we're gonna take a quick break, and we'll be right back. Angela, we're back. It's time for you. You're in the hot seat now. Two books you love, one book you hate.

Angela Flournoy 34:38

Okay, I love. We the animals by Justin Torres. I'm not just saying that because I love Justin Torres, which I do dearly, but because you want to talk about economy, you want to talk about skin in the game. I just feel like it is a book that makes me feel excited about doing I'm I love. Economy. I talked about being a kid in sync writer, but I really do love people who can do a lot with a little. I wish I could do it. I also another book I love is I love on beauty, by Zadie Smith.

Traci Thomas 35:13

I'm gonna never read it. I've never read any Zadie Smith.

Angela Flournoy 35:17

A lot of people do not rock with her fiction. But you know what? It's not perfect, but I enjoy it, but you love every time I reread it, I'm like, you know, I think it's age the best of her early novels.

Traci Thomas 35:30

Okay? And then what about a book you hate?

Angela Flournoy 35:37

I hate, you know, I got a five year old, so I like to say that hate hurts you, but that threw across the room is freedom by Jonathan Franzen.

Traci Thomas 35:54

I also hate that book. I did read it that is exactly the kind of shit I don't want to be doing with my time. That book was boring.

Angela Flournoy 36:04

Okay, you know what? I was fine with that. I there was a moment like two thirds of the way through where one of the characters sort of left his wife to be with this brown woman. And this brown woman is silly, so silly that she literally drives herself off of a mountain. And I'm like, in what, like, she has really no interiority before that, and then she drives herself off the mountain. And I think that Jonathan Franzen is actually a really good writer, and I love the correction. But what in the Toni Morrison, Morrison playing in the dark is going on.

Traci Thomas 36:45

I love it. I love it. We hate the same book. I mean, though I hate many books, and I'm okay for hate hurting me because I was hurt having to read that book, so I'm gonna live in that wait, I want to ask you a question, because when you said that Justin Torres book with the economy, but you're like, that's not something I could do. Are there things with is that something you'd ever try to do? Would you ever try to write like, something like that? Or is that just not interesting to you as a writer, but it's like, but you love it as a reader, I'm

Angela Flournoy 37:15

a maximalist. I feel like it's just, if I'm planning Thanksgiving, there's gonna be, like, one too many things on the table my house. I'm not, I'm not doing the Marie Kondo. I don't know her. I It's not like, I'm a hoarder, but I like, I just like, got it stop. And so I just don't think that I could. It's a dream to have a book be fewer than 200 pages. It's a dream to read a book that's fewer than I remember. Terry Gross recently was talking about how she ideally thinks like a book should be under 300 pages. Yes, I'm at 304, on this one, and it killed me to be under 304, I

Traci Thomas 37:57

don't think you're at 304, are you? Because, I mean, technically, the book is, but I think the book ends on 280 not 290

Unknown Speaker 38:05

killed me. Killed Well, it was

Traci Thomas 38:07

an honor for me. You know what? I don't I don't hate a book that's over 300 pages, but once you get to 400 you you've got to be doing something that requires my time. I will forgive you some this and that, here and there, if you're keeping it around. You know, I think 250 is pretty perfect. But once you're requiring me to go for then I'm then I'm like, taking notes. I'm like, Okay, we could have got this. I don't know about that. Did we need this? Like, I just get in my head more critical, not for non fiction, though I am. It depends.

Angela Flournoy 38:43

So you're reading the Robert Caro and you're chill, but then like, you need your fiction.

Traci Thomas 38:48

No, that's not true. It just depends on what it is like. I understand if you're writing like, if you're writing like a massive book that you need all of this stuff in it, but there's some non fiction books where I'm like, should have been a literal essay. Like this is a paragraph like so I'm harder on nonfiction in some ways, but also I under, like, I read the biography of Ronald Reagan. It was like 900 pages. It did not need to be 900 pages, but I don't think you could have done it well in 250 Do you know what I mean? So, like, I understand some he was like 100 when he died and he got famous, like he was in the war, like he just did a lot of stuff. So, you know,

Angela Flournoy 39:26

I feel like with fiction, there are some novels that are long, that I love, I

Traci Thomas 39:31

agree. I just start to be critical, more critical when you cross the 400 line, I'm just like, okay, there

Angela Flournoy 39:36

are long know what they're doing. There's a few out there

Traci Thomas 39:44

I'm gonna favorite, like, super longs, like, like, chunkers.

Angela Flournoy 39:48

I am just finishing rereading Anna Karen, and I have like, 40 pages left, and I actually, like, I didn't take it with me on tour, because I was like, it'll be a nice treat to come back to these last 40 pages. I've been reading it all. Summer, you know, alongside other things, but it's fine to have a book that stays at home. Like, it's fine, yeah? Also, they're like, really heavy, yeah, absolutely. Marlon James is A Brief History of Seven Killings. It could have been longer, like,

Traci Thomas 40:14

Okay, I did longer have been shorter for me. I know less than I just that, but that book way too hard for me. And you know it, you know that book's too hard for me from everything I've said, you know, I had to do way too much work with that.

Angela Flournoy 40:27

But the voices are so like, the amount of voice that he is able to maintain, so

Traci Thomas 40:35

impressive, so impressive. Too hard for me. Couldn't do it. Struggle. The ending, though. I when I got to the end, I was like, gotta start this book over immediately, like I like, I was compelled by the time I got there, it was too long for me. It was a struggle. I think I understand that it's good. Did I like it?

Angela Flournoy 40:53

Not so much. I loved it. I should reread it. Now, you know, you got me wanting to reread it. I love, you know, winter is for a long book, so,

Traci Thomas 41:00

I mean, I like a long book in summer,

Angela Flournoy 41:04

well, then I have to carry, well, you don't, you don't. You're not on the train, because then it's like, Oh, I gotta carry it around. It's hot outside. I'm inside more in the winter anyway. So it's like, it's me in this book. And I'm not taking Sure. I did

Traci Thomas 41:15

live in New York, and I did, used to carry long books on the train. I just want you to know, okay,

Angela Flournoy 41:19

well, that's, you know, you're strong, strongly.

Traci Thomas 41:22

Malia, maybe you can't really see my muscles, but everybody, they look really good. Don't worry. Went to orange theory yesterday. Okay, what are you What's the last like, the most recent book you read that was just great,

Angela Flournoy 41:38

easy, the double three times by Ricky Fain, you loved I loved it. I love a generational saga set in Tennessee and a little bit in sort of like pre enslavement West Africa follows this one family, and they have, like a guardian, like an anti guardian angel, literally the devil, that sort of follows along with this family. But the way that the story sort of incorporates African and African American like belief traditions and folklore and spirituality, but also is just really funny. It reminds me of just it reminds me of Zora Neale Hurston, but it just reminds me of the blues, and it reminds me of just having fun like it just feels like a book that Ricky had fun writing and was able to pull off. I saw Ricky was worked with him at cambilli Oh, which is like a black fiction workshop several years ago. I don't remember how many years ago, but I saw just like a chapter then, and I was like, wow, this is a really good chapter. How is he gonna pull off this devil situation for a whole novel? And it's one of those things where you read it and it's like, I don't know if you're gonna be able to do it, but I'm gonna be along for the ride until it falls apart, and it never fell apart. I never

Traci Thomas 43:01

did that. I love that. Okay, this doesn't have these don't have to be new books. But what are some books you're just looking forward to reading?

Angela Flournoy 43:10

I am looking forward to reading things in nature merely grow by.

Traci Thomas 43:18

Talk about not only economy, but just fucking fantastic. God, that book is so good.

Angela Flournoy 43:24

I'm probably gonna read it in a couple weeks. When I get back home, interested, I feel like it's time for me to do some rereading. I am interested in rereading. Well, you know what? I've never read, speaking Marlon James, I've never read the book of night. Women interested in reading. I knew you were gonna ask me this, and I was like, that's easy. Top of my head. And now, now look at me.

Traci Thomas 43:51

That's okay. Well, let me ask you this. Then, how do you pick a book? What are you looking at? Reviews, friends, suggestions, people you know, authors you've read, like, how do you decide what you want to read?

Angela Flournoy 44:03

I decide based on vibes, or just, I look at my bookcase, because I buy the books and then I just have them for however long. Could be just a couple weeks, could be years until I read them. So sometimes it's just, I feel like I want a book of this size, like this is going to fit in my bag nicely, or I want a really large book, or it'll be that I read criticism. You and I believe in criticism. You know, not everybody believes in it, but people don't. I read some criticism, whether they hate it or loved it. That made me think, you know what I want to I want to be a part of this conversation by reading this book. You know that's

Traci Thomas 44:42

exactly right. Yes. Why I always say talking shit about books is good for books. People think that's bad for books. It's not everything. Doesn't have to be a rave.

Angela Flournoy 44:51

Sometimes, the way that you talk shit about it, though, that's, yeah, it's got to be lovingly and it has to be again, take the book on its terms. So. On its merits. Yeah, what it's trying to do language? Like, if you're speaking a different language than the book, to talk shit about the book, then it's like, this is about

Traci Thomas 45:07

you. That's right. It's like, but, I mean, I always say, what is the book trying to do? Did it do it well, and did I like it? Those are the questions. But, you know, people, everyone's so nice, everyone's be so nice.

Angela Flournoy 45:20

Well, I think it's just we live in a we do live in an age of cruelty. We do. People are like, well, in the ways that it feels low stakes to be nice, let's just be nice.

Traci Thomas 45:29

But it doesn't help me know what the fuck is in the book. And then I read the book and I'm like, Oh, so you're the idiot. You thought this was great, like you're a liar and a cheat. Speak. Speaking of things that are great, what are books that you love to recommend to people like your go to recs?

Angela Flournoy 45:49

I love to recommend Roberto Bolanos established detectives, because I wouldn't recommend that to

Traci Thomas 45:56

you. No, I know that's too hard for me, but

Angela Flournoy 45:59

I would recommend it to people who are interested in thinking about what fiction can do outside of an Anglophone perspective of what fiction is supposed to be doing. I would recommend similarly. I mean, you know, a lot of African listeners will be like, Duh, but Tahi season, seasons of migration to the north.

Traci Thomas 46:22

We did that on this podcast for book club.

Angela Flournoy 46:25

Still is a book that I feel like economy, but yes, the way that it is shaped is not like a lot of you know, traditional Anglophone literature is like shaped, and it is the assumptions that a person might have about how the story is going to unfold is not how it unfolds. I would suggest Edward P Jones is all on Hagar children. People love to suggest lost in the city, but there are some stories and all on Hagar children that I still think about. I think it's just every single story is a universe.

Traci Thomas 47:02

I've never read any. Edward P Jones,

Angela Flournoy 47:06

Traci, you can never understand me.

Traci Thomas 47:09

Where? Okay, where should I start?

Angela Flournoy 47:13

I actually think that you would really enjoy the known world. It is okay. Maybe it's 400 pages, but it is like, there's a part of it where it's like, Am I in a Western? Like, there it is a things happen. Like, okay, I always talk about how I wish it could be a film, but Hollywood, you know, a film about black people who were Enslavers, people their brains are not like expansive enough today, but maybe one day, but it is, I think, especially now, where we live in an age where some of the narratives of like, who is a victim and who is an aggressive aggressor are being complicated. Now is the time to revisit the known world for those reasons, and also just because it is, like an expansive, like, really compelling story.

Traci Thomas 48:06

How do you like to read? Where are you? Snacks and beverages, time of day, temperature, anything set the scene for, like, your ideal reading situation.

Angela Flournoy 48:18

Janet Jackson said, anytime, anyplace. Okay, 112 said we could do it anywhere, anywhere. And this is how I feel. I like to read everywhere. I I will read anywhere in the house. There's not a room I will not read in. I don't need a certain chair, I don't need a certain time of day. I will read on my stoop. I will read in a park. I will read on a train.

Traci Thomas 48:44

You're literally, you're literally giving, yes, literally, it's green eggs and ham. But for, but for reading,

Angela Flournoy 48:52

it's me. That's the, you know, I mentioned some, some PG examples. That's my rated G example, green eggs. Yeah, I love this.

Traci Thomas 49:00

I love this. It's the opposite, though. Could you, would you on a train? I could, I would on a train, in a car, on a plane. Can you read in the car?

Angela Flournoy 49:09

I can read in the car. If I'm in the back seat, I can read in the car. And I can

Traci Thomas 49:13

only read my Kindle in the car. I can't read a physical book. For whatever reason I get so car sick, I can barely read in the car. But if I have to, I could do it on a Kindle. Okay, this is our sort of lightning round, which is just quick answers. What's the last book you purchased?

Angela Flournoy 49:32

The last book I purchased, I think, was the girls who

Traci Thomas 49:35

grew big by Leila Molly. What's the last book that made you laugh? Anna, Karenina, okay, were you laughing at the wheat or were you laughing at the love affair? Another book we've also done on Book Club.

Angela Flournoy 49:48

Anna Karenina, I was laughing at Tolstoy shade. So, you know, people talk about, oh, you can't have your book. Have all these, like, specific time period things, because they won't be timeless. Like. Sometimes you have to go to the back to get the joke, but then when you get it, so I'm like, almost at the end. So it's the part where, what's the name oblonsky, tries to get this divorce for his sister from Alexey, Alexandrovich, and they have this, like, medium who falls asleep, and then it's like, get the man out of here who came to ask a question. And it's ridiculous and hilarious, but it's like, based on a medium who did, like, kind of scam his way into aristocracy in Russia at the time.

Traci Thomas 50:28

It's really funny. I love this. I don't remember that part at all, but—

Angela Flournoy 50:32

Of course, you don't. There are so many people. Are always just shown up at people's houses.

Traci Thomas 50:35

There's and there's so many people and so many names. I'm like, Who? Okay, what's the last book that made you cry?

Angela Flournoy 50:42

Probably Joan Didion's The Year of Magical Thinking, which I reread last year.

Traci Thomas 50:47

What was the last book that made you angry?

Angela Flournoy 50:53

Probably Mega Mushroom DARS a burning

Traci Thomas 50:58

the last book where you felt like you learned a lot.

Angela Flournoy 51:02

Oh, it's kindred. Creation by my friend Ida Maryam Davis, which is like about sort of non western, like African centric ways of building community, among other things. And there were just a lot of examples in there that I hadn't thought about, like our relationship to time, and how sort of Western centric that is, etc.

Traci Thomas 51:26

What's a book that you're embarrassed, that you still never read? Embarrassed?

Angela Flournoy 51:32

I'm not. I don't really get embarrassed because I'm like, you know, what is the canon, but a book that I have found myself in a position to pretend I've read okay and I've never read the whole thing is probably Moby Dick. I've only read parts of Moby Dick.

Traci Thomas 51:53

Almost everybody says Moby Dick. That's what I've never planned to read. If I can avoid reading Moby Dick, if I can live my whole life and never read Moby Dick. I'll be like, sign me up, babe. But I do know that's that's also a book that a lot of people say it's a book they hate. So just so you know, might not be worth your time. Do you have a problematic favorite book or author? Either one.

Angela Flournoy 52:20

Maybe is the corrections problematic?

Traci Thomas 52:22

Yeah, I think he's problematic. Yeah.

Angela Flournoy 52:25

I mean, since I did not like I threw another book across the room. I liked the corrections. I haven't reread it in maybe 10 years, but I liked it.

Traci Thomas 52:36

What about your favorite book from childhood? Since you were an avid early reader,

Angela Flournoy 52:40

I am going to not mention the typical ones and go with all of the early Anne Rice vampire books. The way that like that was my sexuality in junior high school was just, I am a gay male vampire that I loved them. I just read them and re read them.

Traci Thomas 53:04

Yes, I love it. Okay, if you could assign one book in your class as a high school English teacher, what book are you assigning?

Angela Flournoy 53:18

Sorry to just be this person a broken record, but I feel like alongside this mouse, Mice and Men and Grapes of Wrath is the known world like if you really want to think about this country and where we are and where we're going, I really think that That novel should be required reading in high schools, alongside those sort of like American classics.

Traci Thomas 53:45

I love it. Okay. Last one, I stole this from the New York Times. If you could require the current president of the United States of America to read one book? What would it be?

Angela Flournoy 53:57

A Book of Spells that—

Traci Thomas 54:00

After he read them and reads them aloud and they cast on himself, right?

Angela Flournoy 54:05

No. I mean, the thing is, I could say, oh, the Constitution, but it's like, the thing is the ignorance that's I don't believe it. I actually believe that he's not ignorant of these things. He just also is a student of history enough to know that if nobody stops you, you could get away with doing a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Traci Thomas 54:27

Everybody at home, go get your copy of the wilderness. It's out in the world. I read some, but I also did listen to some of the audiobook. You read some of the audiobook. I do. It's just a little bit, it's, it's very good audio book. If you're an audio person, it's very good book. So it works. You know how wherever you need it. And Angela will be back to discuss Frankenstein by Mary Shelley with us. It is the first time we have ever done horror on this podcast, because I am such. Just scaredy cat. I'm not even sure I'm gonna be able to read the book because I'm too scared of everything. But we're gonna be discussing that right back here on October 29 come back, hear me cry about how scared I was the whole time, and obviously having nightmares ever since I don't know I'm scared of everything. I get nightmares when I read nonfiction. I get nightmares when I read anything scary.

Angela Flournoy 55:20

Oh, you definitely might have nightmares, but it's not actually scary. Okay.

Traci Thomas 55:25

Well, sounds scary to me, but we'll be doing that on October 29 you can get your copy of the wilderness wherever you get your books. Angela, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. This was wonderful, and everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks.

Traci Thomas 55:46

Alright y’all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to Angela Flournoy for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Eliza rosenberry for making this episode possible. Angela will be back on Wednesday, October 29 for the stacks book club, conversation about Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. If you love the show, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks. Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com, make sure you're subscribed to the stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. And you know what? Why don't you go tell your friend about the show too? That would be amazing. For more from the stacks. You can follow us on social media at the stacks pod, on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and now we're also sharing videos on YouTube. You can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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Ep. 391 The Lilac People by Milo Todd — The Stacks Book Club (Denne Michele Norris)