Ep. 393 A Guilty Man Is More Interesting with John J. Lennon

Written By Stacks Assistant

Today on The Stacks, we are joined by journalist and writer John J. Lennon, who’s currently serving 28 years to life for murder at Sing Sing Correctional Facility. He is here to discuss his first book, The Tragedy of True Crime: Four Guilty Men and the Stories That Define Us, which explores society’s fascination with true crime through the personal stories of four convicted murderers, including himself. In our conversation, we dive into how Lennon’s experiences inform his writing, how he maintains focus while in prison, why he doesn’t use prison abolition language in his work, and his anxiety around his new book.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, October 29th, with Angela Flournoy returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

John J. Lennon 0:00

When I see the young guys coming in, it's interesting, but like the hunger that they all have to want something more though, you know, they're trying to figure it out, and they're at that stage where they're like, no, no, I got a really good appeal issue, though, and the wise part of you that knows that the appeal is such a long job, like you just feel bad telling them that, but then you kind of like, shift it to like, wow, if you have to do time, I'm like, yo like, there's opportunities here. And you just got to try to find them. And sometimes they're right next to you. Sometimes you just got to come up under the wing of somebody that's going to show you. Show you the ropes.

Traci Thomas 0:45

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by John J. Lennon, who is a prison journalist and the author of a brand new book called The Tragedy of True Crime: Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us. This book explores the lives of four men who have all committed murder and are trying to find their purpose behind bars. John J Lennon offers a unique perspective to these stories because he was convicted of murder and sentenced to a 28-year life sentence, and he joins us today as he serves time in a New York prison. John joins us today to talk about his experiences, what it's like to be a writer behind bars, and why he felt that his perspective makes him uniquely qualified to tell these stories as a reminder, our book club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 29 with Angela Flournoy. Everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes, and if you're not yet, go ahead and subscribe to The Stacks' brand new YouTube page. You can find us at @thestackspod over on YouTube. If you like this podcast, if you want more of it, more bookish content, more community, consider joining The Stacks Pack on Patreon by going to patreon.com/thestacks and subscribing to my newsletter. unstacked@tracithomas.substack.com both of these places are going to give you bonus episodes, fresh content, and by subscribing, you get to know that you're making it possible for me to make The Stacks free to all every single week. Alright now it is time for my conversation with John J Lennon.

Alright, everybody. I am so excited today, I am joined by John J Lennon, and he is the author of a brand new book. It's called the Tragedy of True Crime: Four Guilty Men and the Stories That Define Us. John, welcome to The Stacks.

John J. Lennon 2:38

Hi, Traci. Thanks for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:40

Thank you so much for being here. So we always sort of start here with these conversations, in about 30 seconds or so, can you just tell folks a little bit about the book?

John J. Lennon 2:49

This is a book where I try my hand at true crime, but sort of in a nuanced way I'd like to think, and actually, this book is less of a true crime critique, if it's showing the harms through themes in the narrative than it is and more of just like a story in which you know characters, including my own, can become accessible in ways that they have never before been, I'd like to think so. This is a first person journalistic book about me and three of my three of my peers in prison, we're all locked up, right?

Traci Thomas 3:23

You're all locked up, and mostly you all were together at different points in your time, at Sing Sing, right? That was sort of the central location. That's where you are now.

John J. Lennon 3:33

That's where I am now. And two of the subjects were, are we're here when I started the book, and then I transferred to another prison, and I met Robert Chambers. Who is I should correct the initial statement, he is home now. He did get released in 2023.

Traci Thomas 3:48

Right, right, right. And so basically, I mean you, you sort of weave your own story into the story with these three other men, and you're talking about, sort of like you said, the nuances of the ways that we talk about these kinds of stories, stories that involve murder, stories that involve sort of these sensational crimes in some of these cases. And I'm just, I guess the real question is like, why did you want to write this book? What did you What did you feel like you could bring to these stories that maybe you hadn't seen before? Or you felt was necessary?

John J. Lennon 4:20

Well, I didn't want to write a book up. I don't think, like, when I started to become a writer about, you know, in prison, I don't think I was like, Oh, I gotta write a book about true crime. I thought it was kind of a cheesy kind of genre, and I didn't think it was sort of an accurate depiction that, you know, sort of, you know, late at night when I, sort of, you know, went to sleep. Over the years, I've been in prison 24 years now, and I've not occasional, you know, I've, I've indulged with some date lines and some 20/20 I've seen the guys on my tears. I've done all that. But around 2013 I became, I got locked up in 2001 you know, I killed a man. I was involved in the lifestyle of selling drugs, and I deeply regret, and eventually I've come to, you know, find remorse for that. And along the way, I joined a creative writing workshop and took the first person journalism in 2013 to sort of follow the trajectory of the sort of arc in prison. And I had my first piece published in the Atlantic, and I kind of started writing about it was a, there was a need for, I saw, for a voice from the inside, and because we had overstuffed prisons, and people were kind of curious about what was going on inside, so it kind of was writing more pieces about, like, what's it like in here? And, you know, tapping into, tapping into more social justice issues, but not but, like, kind of, in a in a more gritty way, I started writing for magazines and, and by 2018 I was, I had, I had landed some feature magazine pieces and and I, and then true like a true crime, came calling, and they did a show on me. Chris Cuomo, as producers at HLN reached out to me and said they wanted to do a story about my redemption and but that's not really what it was about. So you asked, like, Why did I write a book about true crime? Well, that's I wasn't. You know, I wasn't looking to to write a book about true crime. True Crime kind of came looking for me. So that's what. So that's, you know, eventually I, you know, at in those years, I became more of a critic. I started writing magazine pieces and and then I pitched the proposal. I tried my hand at it. So this is a narrative driven book that captures the other part of true crime. I say the other part is true crime traditionally ends with, you know, this sort of investigation and the conviction, the punishment and the end. I don't think you guys really know, like, what goes on after we go to prison. And I try to that's what this that's what the second part of the book is about.

Traci Thomas 7:10

Like, the journey from where, where we leave you and what happens. How did you How do you think about, you know, sort of balancing and telling these stories in this more holistic way, while still, you know, holding space for the taking of a life and the victims and their families. Like, how are you as the storyteller, trying to, I guess, you know, I hate to use this word, but I think it's the word that people use, which is, like, to humanize without, like, minimizing the harm.

John J. Lennon 7:44

Yeah, well, it's quite the needle, right? You know, I, I, you know, I first, I try to, I try to be fully responsible and fully accountable for what I did. I think that's that place where we all start like, I think in just in my magazine writing, we as writers, I think I have a sort of burden where I have to sort of come clean, even when I was writing these magazine pieces that weren't necessarily about about other men's murders, but they may have been about a man suffering from mental illness or or a young man trying to get into a college program wanting more. And then I'm sort of writing it in these, in these magazines, and it's kind of like, like, Wait, this guy's in like, prison. Like, what would he do? Like, what? Like, I don't understand. Like, how is he right? So I was, I always had that like for the magazine, but through the magazine world, I kind of learned to level with the reader. And I think the reader will sort of follow you on this path wherever you want to take them, if you sort of level with them. And so eventually, I, you know, sort of, you know, when it when it came to the experience, I'm always writing about my experiences, right? Something will bother me, and I'll turn to the page to sort of sort it out, because that's all I really have, you know, in 24 years, you know, nobody that works for Corrections has ever asked, like, what do you do with what you did? Like, what it would like, like, how do you grapple with killing a man? You think that, like, that's what your taxpayers go to. But it's really not right. So, you know, I had grappled on the page with that in my magazine writing, and when I turned to this, this book about, you know, these men I had did the same thing in the portions that I do sort of write about. You know, I sort of weave my story that's kind of structured. And meeting them, I didn't want to enter the space with the crime. We kind of see the structure of true crime. It's usually 911, calls gunshots, things like that. It's sort of in media res opening real drama point. And then they drop back. It's all about the investigation and all this other stuff. But then it ends like I previously said. So I wanted to just like, meet these guys in prison and just like, meet them like regular people, but also curious about something like and then we get to that layer. So. Eat. So then we get to sort of what they did later. So it's me, the back stories. I want to get into the back stories, and then we get into what we did, the killing section. And then in those I do write about what I did, because I'm writing about what they did, right? I'm not, I'm not like detached narrator, to answer your question, I try to write about it with, I try to write, when I do enter my into the narrative and write about my own crime, it's, it's always in furtherance of, of, of trying to understand something more, like, what will my desires, what, you know, we kind of understand the external, you know, sort of motivations of crimes, right? People can see those, but you don't really see what's in somebody's insides their soul. Like, why? Like, why? Like, why? And I think that's a big question, true crime. So I do write about that, but I don't write about that to romanticize. I write about that to illuminate the dark spaces that folks can't see. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 10:58

I mean, I'm curious also about, like, logistically how you picked the other three men? I mean, there's a lot of people that you could choose from. So what was it about their stories that you felt was compelling? Or was it more logistics? Was it like, how did you narrow it down to who you wanted? Or how did you know who to approach?

John J. Lennon 11:18

Yeah, well, again, with magazine writing, I kind of like, always, I learned an eye for story. I'm very grateful for editors I've worked with. And you kind of like, you kind of like, I mean, I think the oversimplified version of story, I think John Franklin once put put it forth in Writing for Story. He said, you know, definition of story, the sympathetic character overcomes a complicated situation. There's different development points that he or she has to sort of hurdle, and they have to hurdle and overcome and and then there's a resolution, conflict resolution. But you know, that's really, it's kind of, it's a little complicated to to to just find sympathetic characters. But if you're watching, if you're watching action, not just listening, but watching action, which I have the opportunity to do as an immersive journalist. I'm immersed with these guys. I live these guys. I see their actions. I see character on display, despite what society may you know, sort of say about you know, or you know, sort of, when you google somebody, you'll just get their crime unfortunately, a lot of guys in here, but I kind of see their day to day life, their routines, what do they do? And that's how I picture them as characters, because I would watch them first. They may sound a little creepy, but I think it's just intuitive, right? Like, I think there's a scene when I'm like, when I'm, you know, sort of I'm always, I don't think it's something you could turn off, you know, yeah, yeah. Maybe you could relate.

Traci Thomas 12:46

I can relate. I My thing is that I'm just extremely nosy. So, like, I just want to know everything about everybody, and that's what I can't turn off. I do watch, but more, I'm always like, what's going on? Like, what's the tea?

John J. Lennon 13:00

I'm curious too. I wouldn't say nosy. I mean, you don't want to be too nosy in prison.

Traci Thomas 13:05

Yeah maybe a different vibe.

John J. Lennon 13:08

You want to mind your business here. But I am curious, right? I am curious about the human I am curious. Like, dude, you going through what I'm going through? Like, are you thinking about shit that I'm thinking? Are you grappling with things that I grapple with? Like, so I am curious, right? And I'm sort of looking for my character that I saw, Shane, I saw the conflict. That's his story. Personally, he's a gay man in prison. Let me just like, explain this to the listeners, like, like, this is like, the last frontier for like, LGBTQ rights that you've that you don't even know about, right? And, and it's the compounded punishment of a man and or whomever, right? They don't, it's not a safe place right to express that desires or anything like that. And, you know, folks have this like, misconception that we're all in here, like, maybe, like, having sex that's, that's not, that's not, it's not what's happening, at least not here, and what's happening is there's a lot of ostracizing. So I saw a Shane as this character that was right there, that was conflict, and then I learned that he was the first person Brooklyn tried to execute. Brooklyn prosecutors and really New York City prosecutors tried to execute when Governor Pataki, in the mid 90s brought back the death penalty. And what I saw was like a decent man, like he had 50 to life. He had avoided the death penalty, took a plea, because you'll do that to avoid the gallows. So what I saw with him, you know, teaching guys that were going home how to use Narcan, how to sort of get, you know, sort of prepared for release. And that was character on display. So I wanted, I wanted to know more about him. With Milton I, Milton Jones, he I met him also, or Shane a few years before, in 2017. I met Milton in 2019 and he was, he had just transferred down from Attica to Sing Sing because he had earned a bachelor's degree some years before, when he'd been locked up since he's 17. So in 1987 he had killed two priests with his friend Teddy Simmons. So this is Milton Jones, and when I met him, it was he had already been in prison 30 something years, and he had finally gotten into the master's program because he had completed a bachelor's degree early on in his in his sentence, and and he and he transferred to Sing Sing to pursue a master's degree. And somebody told me about his, about his case, which was a little unusual. I didn't really want to meet him through his case, but that was the that was the conflict there. And I was like, wow, like that complicated. I would like to talk to him. And, you know, I learned more about him. And one of the themes with him, as with Shane, was sexuality. With Milton, it was like mental illness and religion, obviously, and forgiveness. Frankly, that's something I got. I'm sure we'll talk about. And then lastly, it was Robert Chambers. Robert Chambers, I had met him when I left Sing Sing in 2020 and I met Robert Chambers when he was finishing up his stints for selling drugs after he had served 15 years for killing Jennifer Levin in 1986 and he was like this true crime, kind of celebrity, not nothing that he ever wanted. And his story was really about identity. And the overarching thing with him was that, you know, it was about identity and the media telling him who he was, and he just couldn't overcome. And I related to that, you know, that because, you know, as I mentioned at the outset, like my entry point to this book was like, like, this, this dark side of me that was kind of like, it kind of like, lied to me. I was just like shit. Well, they could, they could just do that. They could just, you're nobody, like you're You're a murderer, you're the first person they could get over on. So, so and there's no repercussions, right? Maybe until now, you know, so, so, so I related to, to to Robert in a very minimal way, right? But I relate to that part of it, right, to being lied on. He was like, oh, and he was kind of wiser than me in that way. He was just like. He was just like, oh yeah, no, I don't, I don't even respond to them, you know, that's not I know what they want. But he did, you know, he did show me some grace, and he said, and I hope I showed him some grace too, but, but he said, but you do have a career, you know? And he admired that. And eventually I pitched it to him, and I said, Well, let me tell you a story with and it may be in a way that other people can't see, other journalists can't see it, and he went for it, and that's how the character selection went down.

Traci Thomas 17:43

I have a follow up question about the character selection, but I want to stick with this Robert Chambers thing, just quickly, which is like, you know, obviously you are different than the majority of the media that Robert Chambers is dealing with, but in a lot of ways, you are also the media. So I'm wondering, like, if that tension, if you were feeling that tension, if he was feeling that tension, of do I let this person in who has the potential to tell my story in a way that I can't control after years of having the story told, you know, so publicly,

John J. Lennon 18:21

of course, yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, it goes on a vibe you live with a man, you endure, you endure some of the same things. I think, I think there's a kind of, like, trust that goes into, that goes into, like you said, the pretty unusual situation so I can talk to him just like a regular guy, like we were just doing time, and, like, I knew of him, and I shared some articles with him, so he saw my style of writing, right? You know, he was kind of, he wrote too. He shared with me, like, some of his, some of his writing that he had, you know, recently, you know, written some essays which I actually thought It wasn't bad. It was, it was, it was for his English class. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of cool. I like, you know, we just, we just, we're just two guys talking, you know. And eventually, you know, obviously, after reading, you know, some of my stuff, and he actually took to a piece, the apology letter. This piece, I had written more of an essay about identity, about coming up the process of writing an apology letter to the people, like the family of the man that I killed. And, hold on a second. This is like they have, there's a lot going on right here. I should have, like, it's, this is a constant for me. So I'm like, like, imagine hosting a podcast with just like, just like chaos all around

Traci Thomas 19:44

yeah, how do you like, create a space for yourself to focus? Because, like, you know, writing a book is not something you can do completely in chaos like you do need time to think and focus. So what sort of practices or rituals or things do you have in place when it comes time to do your job, whether it's a book or an article?

John J. Lennon 20:10

Well, depending on how you look at it, it's the good news for a writer, probably bad news for a human is that in New York State, we have a lot of time to ourselves. So you get up, I get up early. I meditate. That's my routine. I meditate. I drink, you know, I strain some coffee, and I get to it, you know. And morning hours are usually the time the noise feels. You never really avoid the noise, so, but I have a good pair of headphones. I have a playlist now, before that, I listened to cassettes and, I mean, I was just, you just get in your zone. I mean, it's sad to say, but my cell is my safe space, you know,

Traci Thomas 20:51

What's on the playlist?

John J. Lennon 20:53

Oh, I have a little bit of everything. Well, they have, like, these tablets now, so it's, I don't know. I have, like, little rock, little dance music, just stuff to get upbeat, stuff to reflect, stuff to get a little mushy. You know?

Traci Thomas 21:09

Well, as I mentioned before, I'm super nosy, so these kind of questions, like what I'm about to ask you in about the playlist and stuff is really, really what I'm here for. I'm interested in the books, but I'm really interested to know, you know what, you're listening to, all that stuff. But the other thing I always ask people, and you mentioned coffee, are you, do you have snacks when you're writing?

John J. Lennon 21:29

Do I have snacks in my cell?

Traci Thomas 21:31

Yeah. Like, do you, like, do you have snacks or like, like, you said coffee. But like, I always ask people about snacks and beverages when they're writing their books. So I'm wondering if you've got snacks in there with you that you use as, like, writing routine stuff,

John J. Lennon 21:42

yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I come up for air and I try to figure out a meal. I try to stay away from snacks. I'm like, push, you know, but I indulge. I mean, we have a commissary, and then we could get packages in prison. So, yeah, I like pistachios, or, like, I like black coffee, bustello, strain it through. There's like a rim of a peanut butter jar, and like, screeners you could buy, so you have to, like, sew the handkerchief, like, around the peanut butter jar, and then you boil the water. The best bustelo is, like, when you boil the water in the hot pot, and then it gets ready, and you kind of like just shout your scoops of bustelo. Like to grind espresso coffee, and then you mix it, let it sit, and then you screen it through the like, when I'll come up for air from my writing, I'll make some bustelos, maybe nibble on some crackers or something. And later on, if my boy's cooking a meal, I've already given him some food. Some guys have, like, makeshift stoves and pots, like, so we make it work, so we don't have to go to the mess hall, you know, and eat, like, real shitty the food. I'll call you back.

Traci Thomas 22:53

Yeah, I heard it.

John J. Lennon 22:54

Okay, cool. The caller has hung up.

Traci Thomas 23:01

Okay. Welcome back. Okay. I want to circle back quickly to my question about your subjects, because obviously, as you know and you talk about in the book, especially in the beginning, about sort of like the ways that true crime also, like so often, features like white people. So I'm curious, you know you do end up having three white subjects in your book, so I'm wondering how much that weighed on you if you were hoping to find a way to include like more black or like Latino voices.

John J. Lennon 23:31

I did. I had four characters in the book, and I went through three of them. I went through Danny. He's from the Bronx multiple homicide real I wanted, like, a real street life, kind of like that I could relate to, and usually the, you know, sort of low hanging fruit with, like, a lot of my friends in here that that have similar, you know, kind of crimes as mine. Because, you know, when we think of Shane, it's domestic. I'm just kind of impulsive, and it's just, it's a freakish kind of case. And Milton's was, he was young, black, but there was something going on in terms of, like, intellectual difficulty. I wanted, like, I wanted just like this, where I could sort of build out, like, how, how, how street life, you know, sort of affects or pushes us to sort of criminality. So I went through a bunch. I went through, I built out, got this, their stories. There was a lot of things in prison that you go through when you're selected. So one thought, so sometimes, like, when I'm just sort of getting a story, a guy will transfer out. Danny, transferred out. Another friend of mine, Chino. He something like people that don't, perhaps don't even realize so he was involved with, you know, he's affiliated, but he was also, he had depth. But it was also like when his when his crew found out that I was writing about him. And it was like, at a certain point they were, they kind of, like, pushed up on me, like, a little bit like, Yo, what's up? What are you gonna give him? Like, these are things that most journalists, like you probably wouldn't even imagine. Like, it's like, but yeah, you know, in maximum security prison, that's how it is. So it's just like, and then the last one was, was, you know, it was another subject, my friend Joseph Sanchez, who exactly I was mentoring him at the time, like with writing, and he's so smart, I have to feed a live Bronx kid, you know, young, you know, a homicide and an attempt. It was just happened, finger snap fast, you know. And in the Bronx and poof 50 to life and it but so insightful, so so much promise and and, you know, so curious, just like that. We vibe so well. And, you know, he eventually, he's recently been published in the New York Times. Joseph Sanchez, for folks who want to look it up.

Traci Thomas 25:59

We'll link to it in the show notes, for sure.

John J. Lennon 26:03

So, and then he and then it structurally, it's just, we realize, if my editor is just like, you know, your story, these stories are structurally going long and the flow of, you know, it's like you make these decisions, and it's like you're actually the street life guy, like, like, you like, we have that from you. And it's just like, I'm wondering, and so I was going to replace, you know, but it was just like, so the race was it just, I, just, I needed. I couldn't have, you know, sort of diversity of race be my guiding my had, I had to go with the feel of my characters, right, and the flow of the book after a while. But there are a lot of peripheral characters that are, you know, sort of diverse ethnicities, like my friend Joseph Wilson, you know, like dear friend of mine helped me write an apology letter at times, wiser and humbler than me, super talented from Brownsville, Brooklyn, and is like, you know, he wrote an opera from prison. So, pretty cool dude. So, like, there's a lot of peripheral characters that are men of color.

Traci Thomas 27:09

Yeah, this kind of book, like, just narratively, this, like, following three or four people in a world is, for me, personally as a reader, is like, my favorite kind of book, and one of the reasons I love it is not just because you get to know the main people, but I also love the sort of peripheral characters who come in and kind of influence the story. And funnily enough, in your story, friend of this podcast, Reginald Dwayne Betts, shows up a few times, and I was like, oh, there's Dwayne. Like, I just love it. I'd like the, you know, six degrees of connection that we have with one another. So I do think, like the peripheral characters. And, I mean, I'm just a big Dwayne fan as you are, obviously, as I, you know, read in the book,

John J. Lennon 27:51

Yeah, for sure. And I mean, I met Dwayne reviewing, and it's like a Poetry Foundation reached out to me in 2019 to review, you know, his book. And I had heard of, I just read his New York Times Magazine piece, and I was like, wow, look at that. Like, and I, and, you know, I wrote a piece about felons, you know, I was like, I don't really review poetry, though. They were just like, No, just tell us how you feel. And I was like, and it was just, it made me feel, that's for sure. And I wrote a, I wrote a piece there, and he reached out, and we just totally clicked. And, you know, and eventually he was like, What's up, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get you out, you know, and, and from there, you know, it's been, it's just been a, it's just been a, you know, just a very close relationship we've had. And, and it's tough, and it's also heartbreaking. And, you know, because sometimes there's so many other factors with freedom, there's politics, there's how the victim's family kind of responds. And I'd say, you know, and I keep saying victim, and I imagine some listeners are going to be like, you know, why doesn't he say his name? And, you know, like so I remember around the time, maybe I met Dwayne a little before that, I wrote, I wrote that piece in The Washington Post about process of trying to come to terms, to write a apology letter, and then his sister wrote a, wrote a response letter, and it was, you know, she didn't accept my apology, and she was, she preferred that I not use the name in my writing. And, you know, I, you know, there's no script on this, right? And it's, I don't know, you know, I have a lot to say. But then, when it comes to responding to questions about, like, what do you say to her that says you shouldn't write like, it's like, what do you what do you say to that? Like, like, I don't know what to say to that. Like, and I've had really serious conversations about remorse and and mercy and forgiveness and all this. But the only, and if it wasn't on the page, it was with Dwayne, frankly, and we vibe with that. I'm reading Paradise Lost together right by John Milton. And like so I have grappled with that. And but the only that, I guess, the irony, is the thing that maybe at times, causes her pain is the only thing that helps me come to terms with what I did, right? And if you want, I mean, I don't, I don't know what to do with that sometimes, but I do know that from writing, there's been a lot of spillover, positive spillover. And while some you know of my subject's victim's family members have spoken to me as you read in the book. And, you know, I just, I just appreciate that grace, you know, because, like, I'm going in, and those are some of the hardest interviews, right? Like, I remember my mentor, Vauhini Vara, she, she asked me, she pressed me, like, you know, you have to, like, like, you have to, you have to reach out, like, you're, you're a pretty crafty guy. Like, let's go. Like, so, so she pressed, you know, I mean, I was going to do it, but it was just, like, it was like, stalling. And my editor too, at Celadon, you know, it was just, it was just these, I know it was very tough conversations. Some, some, some didn't get back. And, like, you know, chambers's mother and sister didn't, but his friend did. I'm sorry, Jennifer's friend, with Shane's case, we tracked down the family. They didn't want, you know, sort of anything to do with the book, and then with Milton's, it was this whole saga of actually, like, reporting out what happened.

Traci Thomas 31:39

Because they had had a relationship over years and years, the family of one of his victims and a fellow, I guess, a nurse, not a nurse, a nun, had already connected with Milton long before you ever met him.

John J. Lennon 31:55

Right, Ray, but And he wrote a book about his brother. So, so, so one of the victim's names is Father Joe this and that from Buffalo and his younger brother Ray this and that. I mean, he just, you know, he just looked up to his brother, and he was just devastated by the loss. The whole family was, as you can imagine. And he just showed tremendous. He just showed tremendous grace. And came to see Milton after the trials, and came to see also Teddy, Milton's co defendant throughout the years, and I read his book, Joe's Story, by Ray this and that, I mean, heartbreaking book, and I but then eventually, that's funny. He was like, wow, you know, that's cool. You wrote the book, you have to, like, follow up now. And then when, when I, when I followed up, the story sort of unravels. And I don't want to give it, give it away too much

Traci Thomas 32:46

Yeah, don't give it away. No spoilers here.

John J. Lennon 32:48

Yeah there was a lot that unravels with that. But recently he read the book. We sent him some my publisher. Oh, he did, yeah, my publicist, Megan, sent him the book. And, you know, like all she she got, you know, she got a response from him. And you know, he said, you know, this is an accurate rendering. And you know, he gave me grace, and he wanted more copies for his, for his kids, and you know, it was, I just, you know, I just, of all the sort of like, you know, I guess props you get for your writing, ego, whatever like as a writer, you know, it's just, you know, just kind of get that grace from somebody that you know shares the harm that you cause another family.

Traci Thomas 33:38

yeah, I feel like one of the things that I hear you say, and I'm hearing you say, and one of the things that obviously I picked up on so much in the book, is that, you know, writing has been your way to kind of, as you said, grapple with this and work through what it means to have been a young person who took another young person's life and now to be like a real adult, a grown up and to grapple with all of that. And it sounds like so much of that grappling is is on your own, is of your own impetus, like you, your writing has led you through it. You're connecting with people has led you through it. And you know, I think I'm sure you agree, there's a lot of huge fucking problems with the American prison system, and one of them that you talk about a lot is like that there isn't this rehabilitation that there's no one outside of you when you're in prison who's saying you need to work on this stuff. You need to find the tools to fix yourself, let alone saying here are the tools that we'll provide you. So I'm wondering, like, while you're there, and you're kind of growing and changing and evolving, as we all do, what it's like, you know, seeing new people come in and like, what it's like for you, watching folks who are so far away from where you know, you've sort of grown to, and. Shane also has kind of a similar story to you, in the sense that he really sort of has this evolution throughout the book, and he gains perspective, and he, you know, there's this kind of change. And I think in some ways you two represent maybe, like, what people who believe in prisons would be like, see, look, you can be rehabilitated. But in a lot of ways, that's not because of the prisons. It feels like it's maybe in spite of them, and also because of the perspective that you've gained through the work that you do. And so that's sort of not really a question, but I'm just curious to hear you talk about that.

John J. Lennon 35:34

I appreciate the question. No, I mean, I mean, yeah, there's not a lot of offerings. And then when you do, when you find yourself, and as Shane did, and, yeah, I would say many men do. There isn't a lot of, like, sort of validation for that, right, especially in New York. It depends on, depending on where you're at. Like, I think there is some acknowledgement of that. Like, ironically, you know, a federal judge, last year, I reviewed his book, Judge Block Second Chance. You know, he's a eastern district judge, I reviewed his book, and he's in the Fed. He's a he's letting guys go in the Feds under the first step back, because he could that the first step back, ironically, that Trump signed gives him discretion to give guys another chance. Like, like these guys, these are some. He's giving grace furious gangsters, like guy that I looked up to from my neighborhood when I was young and dopey and just wanted to be, was a wannabe, right? And I'm just like, my god, this is like, armature, like, like, I, as you can imagine, I'm a little perplexed with the politics of everything in this nation. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 36:39

I mean, same, I think we everyone listening is, we're all nodding our heads.

John J. Lennon 36:44

and he actually, when I've reviewed them, but he wrote a letter to The Washington Post and published it like, this guy was in the feds. I'd let him out tomorrow. Like, this is ridiculous. Like, New York should pass the law. Like, so when you get stuff like that, and then, and then you get total indifference from everybody in your administration of your of the prison, where you are, I have to say, I do give credit where credit is due. The new commissioner in New York, Daniel Marticello, a couple years ago, he gave me a he gave me a creative writing workshop when he was appointed the job. But that prison closed. You know, New York had some trouble since then, and you know, that's when I was sort of mentoring Joe and several other guys. You know, seven of nine of the men in that workshop got published in just four months when Megan Posco, my publicist, and I were sort of like working with these guys. I would develop the stories in the workshop, send it out to her, you know, we'd help them get published. I mean, I mean really, really great stuff like that, that when you get published in prison and you feel like your voice matters, and I was just, it was just an awesome experience that, you know, I give him his credit for enabling that to happen, you know, but just speaking to your larger question, you know. So, so once in a while you get, you know, you get a few green lights, but, but, yeah, generally, this is, it's, it is, in spite of it, like you frame your question, it's, it's, and then when I see the young guys coming in, it's weird, right? Like, I came in, young, so naive and and then, you know, like, I'm graying, and you see my vanity in the book, and you're like, I'm asking, like, oh, yo. How old do I look? Like it's just like, like, Oh, you look like, Oh, you look like, you look like, 40, like, 48 years old. That's like, really. So it's just, it's just humbling to, like, to be here so long, and then, like, we, I talked to these guys and and they and they caught, they like, they're like, Yo, OG. Or like, I'm just like, like that. Now I'm like, I'm OG in it, like, like, and, but they, it's interesting. But like, the hunger that they all have to want something more though, you know, even dudes that are banging. I had a conversation with a kid the other day, and he's all caught up, but he's like, How'd you do it? Like, how'd you do the time, you know, and we have sometimes, sometimes you get it like a little and they're trying to figure it out, and they're at that stage where they're like, no, no, I got a really good appeal issue, though, and the why is part of you that knows that the appeal is such a long shot, like, Dude, you're gonna probably do that time. It's like 99% you're going to do that time that the judge that you're going to do, and you don't like, you don't even have the like, you just feel bad telling them that. But you kind of like, let them down like you don't. But then you kind of like, shift it to like, well, if you have to do the time, I would, I would take advantage of these, like, these college programs. Because, you know, when I came to prison, I called it the lost generation. I came to prison in the early 2000s and we were still suffering from that bill that that Biden penned, and it was nothing in prison, like there was nothing

Traci Thomas 39:53

Right. That's when they got rid of all the like Pell grants and everything

John J. Lennon 39:55

Right, 1994 crime bill that you have no Pell Grants, you had no programs that affected the state, like it was bad. It was just like there was nothing going on in New York State, and it was just packed, and it was wild. And, you know, I it was like I was just in the in the wildest prison in the state, you know, arguably in America, in Attica, where I just found this writing workshop at the time. So sometimes I share those stories with some I'm like, yo, like, there's opportunities here, and you just gotta try to find them. And sometimes they're right next to you. Sometimes you just gotta come up under the wing of somebody that's gonna show you, show you the ropes. And it ain't your big homie, it ain't the dude that's gonna tell you, like, Yo, come down with my set and put that work in and go clap this dude. Go shoot this, you know, go stab this one. Shoot that, you know, like, don't, don't aspire to that, you know. But it's hard to tell them that

Traci Thomas 40:49

And I'm sure it was, probably would have been hard for someone to tell you that too at the start, right? Like that. It takes, like, some time, kind of, to get to a place where you can even hear some of that stuff, as it does with all of us when we're going through anything, right? It's like, you think, yeah, you think you could do it.

John J. Lennon 41:10

I think these are drive by conversations, so I think he will receive it, but it's just if, yes, we had this space, like, you say, like, make space terminology in in that world out there, like, like, there's no space. There's no making space in here. The problem it makes make space in yourself. Like, that's, you go, go to you go lock in. Like, that's, that's where you make space. You got to sturdy up. You know, they mentally, emotionally, and it's tough. And, you know, that's why 50% of the population is, I'm on a company right now, I'm on a tier, right? That's actually a privileged tier. It's like, like a lieutenant who's showed me grace and moved me over here, you know? So there's a lot of guys on a tier that are sort of seriously, you know, they suffer from serious mental illness, but they put guys that kind of have their act together, that kind of show them some grace, right? You know what I mean, you see a guy so that they mix them with some of us that they're on a they're in a step down, sort of tier here, and I could sort of go to their cell, you know, like, kind of see how they're living, maybe help them clean their cell a bit. And, you know, just, just try to, just try to be decent to them, you know,

Traci Thomas 42:19

yeah, yeah, totally. I think one of the things in the book that I thought was really interesting, and I'm just going to read it so that folks can hear you're talking about these, like extreme sentences, and over the years, you know, the ways that judges and prosecutors have maybe been more receptive to kind of giving folks who are guilty of crimes second chances. And you have this part that you quote, you're quoting Zeidman, and he says the whole Innocence Movement has done a lot of unintentional damage. If you're not innocent, it's like, we don't give a shit about you, even though the biggest problem about mass incarceration is massive sentences. And I thought that was really interesting, because I think so many people are just like, well, if you did it, you deserve the punishment, even though the punishments are just insane and so long and so cruel and just so they're antithetical to the idea that rehabilitation is the goal, right? Like, that's the lie that the criminal justice, quote, unquote system tells us is that it's all about rehabilitation when there's no services or not a lot of services, and there's no opportunity for people to show that they're that they have been rehabilitated, if that, if that's the goal, you know? And I'm just curious, like, what you make of all of that?

John J. Lennon 43:41

Yeah, I don't write about innocent people because I can't. I hope I write about people where I can relate to them. I can't relate to you bruh, like I don't. And there's always that space like that. There's always that space where, and I have to say, like a lot, a lot of folks are lying you know about that, because, again, there's nowhere to sort of come, come clean, and they and it's not that they're like, bad people, because they're lying about what they did. No, no. When you're like, like 18, years old, and you have 50 years to life, and you go to the library and add it, and the old time, you know, the old timer says you don't admit guilt because you cannot get any, you can't get any rhythm on your appeals. So the whole system is set up to never be accountable, right? And I just knew I never wanted to live like that, because deep down, I wanted to just just, just be real about it, just be like, Damn man. And I wanted to figure out, like, what of it? All right, so I'll never write about and, you know, a so-called innocent man, because that's not I write about people that where I could hook into the things they grapple with, and I just find the guilty man more interesting, right, because there's this truth, and there's this heavy truth that you have to grapple with, right, because of some of the things that you mentioned, right? And, and that's, that's why all my characters are are guilty. And, you know, I don't, that's not, that's not where I go. And, but, yeah, Steve, you mentioned Steve Zeidman. I mean, this guy's a rock star in New York, you know, he's just, he's gotten more people out on nuanced post conviction motions than and than anybody I know like, and he's taking the tough cases like, and you know, when you think about it through the lens of story too, Traci, like, of course, it's easy to come in and root for, like, we got here for through Serial, right through a wildly popular show, and it's just like, and she's taking you through this, and she's and she's taking the audience through this sort of nebulous space of the unknown. Like, did he do it? Did he do it? And it's like, it's great storytelling, don't get me wrong, yeah. Like, I'm like, I don't, I don't really know. I mean, but, but, but it fits the mold of a traditional story rubric, right? Since, like, what I started with sympathetic character comes in. I mean, of course people are going to root for you if the system screwed you and you're trying to overcome the system is the antagonist, and it is a fucking antagonist. It's a shitty one. So, yeah, root for the guy who says, it turns out he may not be innocent, but, but a lot of the time, but, but what you know, like, that's, that's just, that's just where people are at like, they want to like, like, they like, I mean, I just find, I just find the guilty man more interesting. I'm not gonna sort of get on my soapbox.

Traci Thomas 46:27

Yeah, no, I hear you. I'm also curious a little bit about how you think about audience, how you think about your readers, knowing you know that so often, like, your experiences are going to be totally different from them, and they're gonna, they might not have any, you know, ways to really relate to you on like they might not feel, like they can, right, like there's so many people that I think are so disconnected from the prison system that they feel as if someone who's locked up is, you know, might as well be on Mars, like there's they would never, they could never. And so I'm wondering how you are sort of thinking about that, not just with this book, but when you're writing in these publications. Like, are you thinking about your reader a lot, or are you sort of just like, I'm John, I'm gonna do my shit. And if you fuck with me, you fuck with me. And if not, like, okay.

John J. Lennon 47:16

um, I mean, I think there's a little bit of that. I don't, I don't write for the audience. I write for the story, right? And I think I try to leave my truth on the page. I think there's like, I think I think there's like, certain times I'm aware of the like, like, I think the tone like that I'll strike sometimes. Like, if I'm writing my editor, Emily Greenhouse in the New York Review of Books, like, she's like, you know, she'll be like, okay, tone it down a bit like, you know, like there's not men's out like, you know, just so I think there's like, an awareness in terms of your rhetorical situation, which is, I think of any writer has to sort of gauge. But I try not to write for it, for, you know, I write for me, and I try to build worlds, and I am, you know, keeping in mind, like, I try to build this world and try to show it to y'all just the best I can. But like, I'm not ready for the criminal justice reform audience. I'm not, I mean, I'd say in the book, like, like, like, I'm not doing none of that. I'm not doing the whole criminal legal I'm not doing the criminal legal system. I'm not doing formally incarcerated person. I'm not doing, you know, currently incarcerated. I think those terms are, like, super clunky, and it doesn't make for good writing. And I just, I'm just not going to use it. And I could do that like, because, like, I'm in here and, and that's it, like, and I'm going to do it. And just because that's not how we talk in here, you know what I mean? And that's just, and that's just, and if I'm going to build these worlds, I'm going to give it to you, how, how we live it and, and so, yeah, I'm not going to sort of try to conform. And sometimes I get a little pushback, you know, from that, or just like, but I don't really like, you know? I'm just, I think you have to just develop your own voice as a writer. And no shots to those that that do adhere to that. I think there's a reason for that. But as somebody that is a narrative driven, you know, non fiction writer, you know, a first person journalist that that is building worlds, I think it's important to use, to use, you know, the language of the world, right? So, right, yeah. I try not to get sort of influenced by, you know, my audience too much.

Traci Thomas 49:25

Is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was?

John J. Lennon 49:29

I don't know. I think I left it on the I kind of left it all on the page for this, for these stories. You know, look, this is not a memoir. This is not my story. I think this is tidbits of my story in there, and I perhaps more than did this. But I think, yeah, I don't think this is a memoir of me. I think, I think you get enough of me to sort of move the stories along of of the others, you know. So anything that sort of, that's not, maybe that's just an idea for the. Next book. It's also just kind of gaging getting out to like, man, if I'm getting out, I should write this book, because I could go to these places and write this and write that, and then it's like, I don't know if I'm getting out next year, or like, there's a few irons in the fire, you know. So, yeah, I don't know what my next project is going to be, because, like, I guess my freedoms up in the air, but I'll figure something out. Yeah, there is something that I did put in the book, I guess an inverse to that question that I kind of like, you know, when it comes out, you're just kind of leaving it all on the page, because it's all about your truth. Then when it does come out, it's like, oh shit, these guys are ordering this book in here, and it's just like, there's so much anxiety with, like, some of some of your truth you left on, like, the page, like, for example, like, you know, like I talk about when I was younger, like, sexual experiences I had, it was in, like, Shane's chapter. And I guess a part of it for the book, I was just trying to, like, stand at the ledge with him. Here's this guy comes to prison, you know, homosexual. I mean, he just come to prison. He's just live like that, and been rejected his whole life because of his sexuality, right? But then, like, I'm right here. Here I am writing about him. But shit, I got my own secret so, like, and I leave that on the page right, because I think it's actually relevant to his story. I want to stand at the ledge, at the edge with him, and I also, and also think it's kind of like this, this chip that I had on my shoulder too, when I was, like, in this, like, tough guy drug dealing lifestyle that I had, like, these secrets, and I was, like, so fearful of being found out about these secrets that I had about, you know, some experiences when I was younger. And, yeah, like, a 48 year old version of me today, it's just like, oh, so what? Like, you know what I mean? Just leave it on the page, you know. But when you but then you realize, oh shit, I'm still in this, this fucking environment, like, you know, this subculture that's just that's like, that that judges you, you know? And like, like, that's what I'm going through now. I'm just like, Oh, God, they gonna read that shit. I'm like, like, saw this guy in New York. So What's up, bro? I told my people to order the book, and I was like, Oh, yeah that's cool. And I think, I think people like, maybe in your circle, like, I mean, like, they'll be like, oh, so what? Like, like, Cool bro, like, you were vulnerable. Like, but, yeah, it's not that. It's not that simple. It's not, it's really, it's really not that simple when you live in this world.

Traci Thomas 52:31

Yes, no, I hear what you're saying. Okay, so I have to ask you just a few questions I ask everybody, and then, and then we'll get out of here. And one of them is, what's a word that you can never spell correctly on the first try?

John J. Lennon 52:43

I came across one the other day, conscientious

Traci Thomas 52:48

Ooh, good one.

John J. Lennon 52:49

It wasn't really my word. It was a friend of mine. I was helping him with his clemency personal statement, and we were going back and forth. And he was like, conscientous, like, I can't how do you, Well, shit, you stumped me too, but we figured it out.

Traci Thomas 53:05

That's a hard one. I don't think I could do it. One of the things that you talk a lot about, like at the end, like in your author's note, or after, I think it's an author's note, is about like, the process of writing the book. And normally I ask a lot of questions about that, but I really want folks to go and read it and hear like the multi step effort that it took for you to write and the word limit on the tablet, and Megan, your publicist, who you've mentioned, who's actually how we're talking today, she's patching you through to me and your assistant and all the people that you had to rely on in order to tell this story. I think it's just like it's so important for people to read that part of the book, so folks, when you read it, make sure you read that the author's note. But one of the things you mentioned is that, in addition to being your fantastic publicist and sort of this team member with you, Megan also sent you some books. And I'm just curious, like, what books was Megan sending you? What are you reading? What books are you into? I know you mentioned John Krakauer. Who is my A1, I'm love that man. Never met him, never talked to him, but I've just he's my fave. So I'm curious, like, what stuff are you reading?

John J. Lennon 54:12

Oh, right now, what am I reading? I'm reading Tom Wolf's The Right Stuff. Megan and I are actually going to read that together. We read Victim together.

So we're always, we read Bonfire Vanity together. She's like, it's never really together, because she's like, a, like, a really good reader. I'm like, like a learning disability with reading, and I have to, like, push that ironically, but I, I am, you know, so I'm a slow reader and meticulous, but we, she, she hooks me up with all the classics. So, like, I have, like, a, you know, sort of stack of of, I mean, I have, I wish I was doing this interview in my cell but I have Norman Mailer's collection of essays. That's like, one of my favorite go to books. I forget the titles

Traci Thomas 55:10

I'll find it. I'll link it.

John J. Lennon 55:12

Yeah, but there's, there's like me, they then, of course, The Journalist and the Murderer by Janet Malcolm. That is like, these are books that I return to, like all the time, like, I'm a craft geek, so like Vivian Gornick's The Situation and the Story, John Franklin's Writing for Story. These are like books that, like, are very accessible, like hands reach away from me. Jack Hart's Storycraft. These are, these are all books that like, if you're a writer aspiring writer, I would encourage you to get those books. And they're not like, they're not like, hooking me up to like, say this though, those are like, the best books.

Traci Thomas 55:56

I love that. Here's my last question for you, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

John J. Lennon 56:04

Norman Mailer.

Traci Thomas 56:07

Why?

John J. Lennon 56:08

Because I think he showed grace to someone, to Jack Henry Abbott, and I think he got his heart broken with that, with that relationship and and you know what? You know, when I wrote about Jack Henry Abbott in the New York Review of Books, I was hard on him too, you know, because I resented that. Like, every time, like, like, like, like, they like, you know, they always bring him up with me. It's like, bro, like, What the fuck. So for folks that know Jack Henry Abbott built this relationship with Norman Mailer and Norman Mailer helped get him out in 1980 and he, in six weeks, killed a man, a random, I mean, not a random man, a decent you know, Richard Adam was his name. He was a restaurant manager in downtown, and Abbott stabbed him just because he just was bottled with anger and and he broke Mailer's heart, and he broke the literary community's heart. And I guess I just, I don't know I want him to know that there's others out there, and we're, you know, we're worth it, you know.

Traci Thomas 57:23

Yeah, yeah, that's a great answer. Well, everybody at home, you can get The Tragedy of True Crime: Four Guilty Men and the Stories That Define Us by John J Lennon, wherever you get your books, it is out in the world as you're listening to this. John and Megan, thank you both so much for making this happen. This was amazing.

John J. Lennon 57:40

Oh, thank you, Traci. It's It was fun talking to you. And thanks for having us.

Traci Thomas 57:44

Of course, and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

Alright, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to John J Lennon for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Megan Posco, Emily Riddell, and Christine McKitician for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for October is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 29 with Angela Flournoy. If you love the stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracithomas.substack.com, make sure you're subscribed to the stacks, wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you listen through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. You can follow us on social media, at at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok plus, we are now on YouTube at at the stacks pod as well catch video clips of these episodes, and always, you can find everything you need at our website, the stacks podcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Wy’Kia Frelow and Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from tagiragis. The stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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Ep. 392 The Ebbs and Flows of Friendship with Angela Flournoy