Ep. 391 The Lilac People by Milo Todd — The Stacks Book Club (Denne Michele Norris)

Written By Wy'Kia Frelot

It is The Stacks Book Club day and we're discussing The Lilac People by Milo Todd. Our guest for today's conversation is editor and author, Denne Michele Norris. The Lilac People follows a trans man and his partner as they attempt to survive Nazi Germany and the aftermath of the Allies’ takeover post-war. Together, we discuss the ways Milo Todd uses history to ground the book and its characters, the ever evolving language surrounding gender and identity, plus the ethical questions that arise in times of war.

There are spoilers in this episode.

Listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our October Book Club pick will be!

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Denne Michele Norris 0:00

You know, we have a lot of conversations and necessary conversations about language and how we talk about people of all kinds of identities. And I think when we're looking at history and we're looking at movements and we're looking at the ways that communities have existed throughout time and in different contexts, it's so important to understand the thinking and the practices around the language that was used at the time, in part because it is important that those of us who are alive right now, which is currently the farthest you know, the most advanced the world has ever been, we have to have enough humility to understand that our language will also continue to change and evolve, right? And the things that we consider acceptable may not be considered acceptable in five or 10 years.

Traci Thomas 0:46

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today is the Stacks Book cCub day. I am joined by Denne Michele Norris, who has come back to the podcast to discuss our pick for September, The Lilac People by Milo Todd. The book is about a trans man named Bertie and his partner, Sophie, who are navigating post World War Two Germany when an unexpected visitor arrives from a concentration camp nearby. Today, Denne and I discuss the ways that language is ever evolving. We talk about the importance of historical fiction and the telling of stories, especially those about people who have often been erased, and we dig into some of the writerly choices that Milo Todd makes with his characters. There are spoilers on today's episode. Make sure you listen until the end of the episode to find out what our October book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes, if you like the stacks, if you want more of it, bookish content, hot takes, community, virtual book clubs, consider joining The Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter, Unstacked, on Substack. Each of these places offer different perks. Plus you get to know by supporting my work, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com, now it's time for my conversation about The Lilac People with Denne Michele Norris.

Traci Thomas 2:19

All right, everybody. I'm so excited. I am joined again today by author, editor, all overall, outstanding literary citizen, Denne Michele Norris, welcome back to The Stacks.

Denne Michele Norris 2:38

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be doing this book club episode. It's gonna be super fun.

Traci Thomas 2:41

I'm so excited. So the book we're talking about today is The Lilac People by Milo Todd. The book came out this year, and let me just say this from the top, because somebody wrote a mean comment to me, there will be spoilers in this episode. There will be spoilers. Okay, so if you haven't read the book, that's totally fine. Either stop listening or enjoy the spoilers, but don't come yell at me on Spotify comments.

Denne Michele Norris 3:09

Okay, no, don't appreciate it. No, like it's I think it's really hard to have a really great conversation about a book without spoilers. I know why people do it, but it's an interesting thing as a writer, because I am unconcerned with spoilers as a reader, okay, and I always have been. When I was a kid, I would go to, like, the Book Fair at school sometimes, and I would flip to the back of the book because I wanted to see how it ended before I chose whether or not I was going to buy it.

Traci Thomas 3:33

Oh my gosh. Okay, I hate a spoiler. So I am extremely spoiler conscious and but when we do book club, the deal is that there are spoilers. And since this is a novel, there will be spoilers. When it's non fiction, I don't care that much, so spoilers. Let me give folks sort of the quick plot summary of the book or plot intro of the book, and then we'll dive right in. So The Lilac People takes place in 1930s and 1940s Germany, there's sort of a dual timeline for those of you paying attention, you probably know it was happening in Germany around that time. Our main character is a man named Bertie, and he is a trans man who is in a long term, sort of marriage type relationship with a woman named Sophie. Sophie and Bertie have--uh, we don't know how, we don't know what happened, but we know they have escaped Berlin, and they are living on a farm in um. They've got another identity. We don't really know what's going on with them, but we know that they are lovers. We know that they were in Berlin in the 30s, and now they're still alive, still, you know, "sexual like, bad guys", according to the Germans, according to the Nazis. You know, they're, they're living life on the run as, like, you know, a trans man and his wife, yeah. So fill in the dots, and then a, a small boy-man shows up in their backyard. We find out his name is Carl. We find out that he is also a trans man. And then we get going. I mean, that's sort of the setup of the book. Who's Carl? How did Bertie and Sophie get out of Berlin? How are they still alive? Why didn't the Nazis find them? And what the fuck is going on? In the 1945 timeline, which is where we meet Carl, the Americans have come to liberate the camps. And we find out, basically, at the top of the book, everyone's free except homosexuals and sexual what's the word I'm looking for, not, not what's there's like a word for a sexual deviants. That's what?

Denne Michele Norris 5:29

Yes, yeah.

Traci Thomas 5:32

So that includes the trans, the trans, the trans people. So everyone else is free. But you know what laws we're going to keep in place as the liberators? We're going to keep the laws the Nazis had about, like gay people and trans people. But otherwise, if you're a murderer, roam free. You know, proud to be an American, yep. So Denne, we always sort of start here with the book club episodes. Overall. What did you think of The Lilac People?

Denne Michele Norris 6:12

Oh my gosh. Okay, so I really, really loved it. I found it to be incredibly engrossing. I'm not always into historical novels, to be perfectly honest. I'm just so preoccupied with like, more contemporary life. But here I found the writing to be just beautifully executed, and everything about the setting and the descriptions really just like pulled me into this world, and this time, I just found it to be absolutely gorgeous. I it was really interesting to read this novel as a trans person at this time in this country. It felt prescient in an almost creepy way, and I kept thinking about the trans author who wrote this book, Milo Todd and I kept thinking a lot about the impact of writing this book and doing the intense amount of research that had to be done to execute this book when we're living in a time that feels, you know, eerily Similar, when it feels like like this kind of conversation, like we might be on the brink of like, you know, dealing with trans people in the way that they're dealt with in in this book, it was also just beautiful to learn about the history of of trans folks in Nazi Germany. You know, I've always heard about it, but I've never really known much about it, yeah. So this book did that, but it did it in a way that felt like it was a piece of art, like a beautiful piece of literature, like it did everything for me that a novel is supposed to do.

Traci Thomas 7:50

Yeah. So I have, I think, slightly more mixed feelings than you, but generally very positive, like, generally, I think this is a really good book. I also am not a huge historical fiction person. And unfortunately for Milo Todd, I think I am a very much a World War Two, specifically Nazi Germany person. Like, I've read so many non fiction books in this place, like the camp that they talk about Dachau, I've been there, like I was just there, actually last year. And, you know, my mother's Jewish, so I was raised with so much of this history as something that was important for me to know about. And so as a person who reads so much nonfiction, while I did learn a ton a lot some of the stuff, I was like, okay, like, everybody knows this, which I know is a me problem. Like, I know that everybody doesn't know this, which is why I'm like, unfortunately for Milo Todd, he, like, he wrote a book for a person, like for me to read and be like, Well, I knew that already, because I'm a know it all, but I did really like it, and I thought I would feel more like, I wish I was just reading a non fiction book about this, which is usually how I feel when I read historical fiction. I'm just like, I want to, but I think because of, you know, we find out later in the book about the fire and the burning of all these records and all of this, that they're just that doesn't exist, like, there's, there are pieces of this history that exists, but there are not, like, a lot of stories that we're going to get about what it was like to be alive. And so I think that I really enjoyed that piece of, sort of, I was able to let go of some of my, you know, well, actually little bits, like, there's a few historical things where I was like, well, that's actually not how it went. And then I read the author's note, and I was like, okay, like, Yeah, but, but I did really like it. And then, and then, like, on a novel side, I did think some of it felt heavy handed to me, like a little didactic, a little bit like, I'm going to really make sure you understand the connections to now. And I appreciated it, like some of the most beautiful writing were in those sections. But I also was a little bit like, do we need this? And I want to talk about that, because I think a. Audience is really interesting for a book like this, right? Like a novel, a historical fiction, novel about trans people coming out in 2025 when there's so much like anti trans rhetoric, and not just rhetoric, but also like laws and legislation being you know, all this stuff going on, how much you know, should a trans author be driving the point home of like, hey, feels like Nazi Germany. I don't know if you have thoughts about that.

Denne Michele Norris 10:31

I have sort of evolving thoughts about it. And I have thoughts about it in reference to this book specifically, but also sort of other books in general, I It's interesting. I feel like we are at a moment in time where we have kind of earned the heavy handed art, yeah. And by that, I think what I mean is that if we have been more subtle in the past, it has not worked. It has not gotten us where we needed to be sure. And I sort of feel like I don't know what's what's left. I think it was really interesting for me. In the middle of the book, there's a section where, so throughout the book is like, divided into sections, like, mainly part one, part two, part two, part three. But then, of course, there's chapters and before, in certain places throughout the book, you'll get a note in like italics that is like communication like this is what's happening to trans people at this moment. Newspaper yes, they're like newspaper clippings, yes, you know, announcements or whatever, but they're but you can, as you read them, you can tell that they're being circulated like in certain ways.

Denne Michele Norris 11:38

Like underground, underground news getting passed to the community, like within the community.

Denne Michele Norris 11:39

Yes, exactly in the ways in which they can do it best without being surveilled. And one, and there's a section in the middle of the book where there's a bunch of them in a row and they're just getting worse and worse and worse. And the last one talks about Dr Magnus Hirschfeld, who's a character in the book and a real life person who ran the sort of Institute of human sexuality in Germany that was kind of at the forefront of so much of the conversation around sexuality and gender identity. And it says he's the most, I forget exactly what it says, but it basically says he's the most dangerous Jew in all of Germany, like at this time and, you know, and he's been performing, you know, or working with providers to perform, like gender reassignment surgeries, and supporting people and educating people and educating the community. And I just thought about even just the rhetoric that we've heard in the last few days, like in the last few days in response to the killing of Charlie Kirk, like there are people on the far right who were talking about how trans people are the most dangerous people in America, and how trans people are a terrorist group, which is like an escalation from what we were hearing three months ago, six months ago. And I just, I mean, that was so eerily weird and prescient. And I just was like, we have to be heavy handed and but even even if we are heavy handed at this point, what is it doing? Is it going to do with us?

Denne Michele Norris 11:39

Yeah, I also feel like, what's interesting about a book like this is, like, those people aren't going to read it, right? And that's what's hard, is it's like, well, I don't I don't need Milo Todd to be heavy handed with me. I need Milo Todd to be heavy handed with, oh boy over there on Fox News, right? And, like, that's the thing that's so frustrating about, like, art sometimes, is it's like, I like, I hear what you're saying and I agree with you. So, like, I don't need the lecture today. But yeah, I understand why it's there, because, to your point, like, people need it. And I think there are probably people in between me and old boy on Fox News or whoever, who are reading this book who are, like, connecting dots for the first time, which is, again, why I said, like, some of the issues I have with this book are just because this is a piece of history that I really love and have read about. You know, yeah. So I think, like, my own biases coming and not even biases, but just like, interests coming in, yeah? Like, I knew that. Like, I think a lot of people didn't know that there were trans people having reassignment surgeries in the 30s. And, like, I did know that, you know, so, like, I think just some of those pieces, it's hard. I think it's, I think Milo Todd has an extremely hard job of balancing all of his knowledge, because he knows way more obviously than me, like he's done all of this research and balancing, you know, the art of storytelling, which I think he does really beautifully in this book, and also making a point, you know, like this book, as all books are, is political, and I think it feels even more political right now, though, I think there's, I think it probably would feel political in any time. I think, you know, I think that's what's so enduring about what happened in Nazi Germany, is that so many groups can see themselves in the plight of the queer community there the Jewish community. Their, you know, the political dissidents like, there's so many ways in to understanding what happened and seeing those parallels, which is why I think it comes up all the time, because it is not, you know, by any means, the only atrocity or genocide that's ever been experienced like. So there's something extremely compelling about this one that is has like an invitation for other people like to see it as a cautionary tale, whether they take the lessons or not? Is another question.

Denne Michele Norris 12:14

Well, I think part of it is that, you know, there are so many people that were targeted, and so many communities that were targeted, and this is perhaps in some ways, you know, I don't know if this is the right word, but a virtue of this happening or beginning, really, in Germany, of that being the locus and other parts of the world, when, often, when there are genocides, in ways, it seems as though the people involved are more homogenous. And so it's just like an easy point of access, I think, for so many, just for so many people, which I which I which I think is really interesting. I'm similar to you. I've known for a long time that there were people who were having reassignment surgeries done at that point. I've certainly known about Magnus Hirschfeld, probably since I was in high school, certainly at the very least college. And so there was a lot of information that I was familiar with too, but there was also getting to read about it in a sort of dramatized way. I think was really interesting and really helpful for me, because, you know, so little of the history is written about in this way is fictionalized. You know, getting to be in the head of character, of the characters, you know, for me, this felt like, ultimately, I would consider it a character driven novel, even though it has these other elements that are really strong and so for me, that was the way in that I often haven't had the chance, haven't always had the chance to just experience.

Traci Thomas 12:14

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think, I also think, I think for so many people, even if they know, you know, trans people have existed for way before. 1930s also like, way before, yeah, yeah. Maybe you know since the beginning of time, like, yeah. Like, we're not saying this, but I think a book like this that foregrounds that story and is backed by history does something more than a story that is just set in another time, that features trans characters, right? Like it's rooted in something that makes it much harder to dismiss, right? And I think Milo Todd with his author's note, which honestly, like one of my favorite parts of the book, because I'm a non fiction girl, I love an author's note. I loved seeing what he changed to fit what he kept the same. Like, I thought that was so cool. And for those of you who listened on audio the author's own is not in the audio book. So I know I literally, I was gagged when I found out. I had no idea, no idea. It's like, just read, just read those lines, anyways. But I thought so. One of the things that comes up in the author's note that I thought was so fascinating, it's, it's talking about Hirschfeld and the center and the fire that happens that is dramatized in the book, where all the files and the papers are burned and so much is lost. And Milo Todd says, like, these images of the fires and the burning have been distributed in books and movies, like all over the world, talking about what the Nazis were doing to free speech and like, what the Nazis are doing, and he and Milo Todd notes, but pretty much none of those mention what was actually being burned. And I thought that was so interesting. And the ways that we can tell these stories but completely erase what was being targeted, right? It's like so then it makes it easy for people to believe that it was just political dissidents, or that it was just, you know, maybe it was like the Torah or something. It's like, there's no Jewish papers, or just generally, books they didn't like, but it's like, no, these were the files and the stories of people in the LGBTQ community, though, that is, I think they're posthumously named. I don't think that's what we were calling it. Then the inverts and the transvestites, which are the language of the book, which Milo Todd is like, this is language of the book. Don't you guys do that? Okay? Which I love. He's like, this is the language of the time. We're not doing we're not doing transvestite otherwise. Okay, thanks so much. So I did think that was interesting, like that, the loss of everything is featured, but not actually what is lost.

Denne Michele Norris 19:23

Yeah, like you don't, you know, I knew about that fire. I understood what the institute was doing on a very broad level, but I also had never really, like looked into it further, and so reading it dramatized in this way, it filled in that picture for me, and that was really interesting and really important. And sort of was a moment. I have these moments a lot with things that are media that is more historical than what I'm typically encountering, where I'm like, Oh, I sort of thought I knew about this, because I know a few details, or I know a few basic facts, but I don't actually know about this. Like, I don't know the details. I don't It's not tangible. Is in my mind, like I think it is. And so that was a really exciting and really interesting part of it. And just to have it all be kind of on the table in that way, I also want to say I also appreciated that sort of author's note in the beginning where, where Milo Todd talks about the language, because I think, you know, we have a lot of conversations and necessary conversations about language and how we talk about people of all kinds of identities. And I think when we're looking at history and we're looking at movements and we're looking at the ways that communities have existed throughout time and in different contexts, it's so important to understand the thinking and the practices around the language that was used at the time, and to not only look at it through a lens of what is acceptable today, in part because it is important that those of us who are alive right now, which is currently the farthest you know, the most advanced the world has Ever been, we have to have enough humility to understand that our language will also continue to change and evolve, right? And the things that we consider acceptable may not be considered acceptable in five or 10 years.

Traci Thomas 21:13

Yeah, that's such a good point, right? That this is all an ever evolving situation. I think that's why some people get really mad when people want to take the N word out of books or something, right? Yeah? Like, okay, yeah. But then, I mean, I always think also, like, not just going back right to the language of the history, but like, when you know a word shouldn't be used in the present and you use it, like, I'm always fascinated by how the N word shows up in books now, like, sometimes in the audio book, they'll bleep it, or like, you know, I'm like, But was it written in the text? Or like, did you put an ad? Like, you know, I'm curious about how, especially white authors, obviously, are navigating that. Okay, let's kind of dive in. We're gonna keep talking about, like, a lot of pieces of it, but let's kind of dive into the plot. And there's some other things I want to slide in as we go. So as I mentioned, the book opens with Bertie and Sophie. They're in um, which is outside of Berlin. I don't know it's in Germany. They're on a farm famously growing asparagus. Okay, yeah, we they are growing asparagus. You need to know that. I need to know that. We're all gonna know that together, and a person appears. He smells bad. He's maybe dead, we don't know. Find out it's Carl or sweet, sweet Carl. They bring Carl in. They find out that Carl had been at the camps, and they find out what they had already known from the newspaper clipping, which is that the Americans have liberated at the camps. They've let everybody go, but not the inverts, which are, which are homosexuals, and not the transvestites. Or, as it's also referred to, pink triangle triangles, which were for homosexuals, and then black triangles were for all sorts of sort of bad people wearing the Natsu. So that included, like, political dissidents, that included transvestites, as the book is called, I want to say, can I say I'm going to say trans people. I don't like saying trans.

Traci Thomas 23:07

I know it's, like, uncomfortable. Like to say it? Yeah, I said it a few times as I was reading it, I was like, I don't know how I feel about saying this right now.

Traci Thomas 23:07

I don't love it. I'm not loving it, so I'm going to say trans people, yeah. But in the book, I'm going to just say what I say, I guess, but just know that if I say trans, my son, I'm not liking it. It's not comfortable, but So, so the black triangle is includes a lot of people. So what we find out is as they're kind of liberating the camps, they're sifting through the lists, and they're trying to figure out, why are you a black triangle? Are you Are you trans, or are you just other nefarious I think, I think the black triangle also includes like, people who were unhoused at the time, like so it includes a wide swath of people who are not clearly fitting in the other categories, like Jewish Roma, pink triangle, etc. Yeah. And what's important, just a historical piece, which is brought up in the book. But I don't think people understand this about Dachau. I didn't really quite know this, but because Dachau is one of the earliest concentration camps, or work camps, whenever you know language of the time, it was had a very low percentage of Jewish people, yep. So it was it, yeah. So it had mostly black triangles. It was a heavy black triangle. It also had a lot of, like Catholic priests and like religious people who were speaking out against what the Nazis were doing early on. So a lot of people who are at Dachau were not Jewish. That is not the case for most of the camps, especially the camps later on that are further outside of Germany. But a lot of the camps in Germany, because this little history lesson, a lot of the camps in Germany didn't have as many Jews as you'd think. Also, the number of Jewish Germans who were killed is far lower than you would think, because. As many Jewish Germans left, they'd had time to leave. They saw what was happening, the writing on the wall. So the number of actual, you know, Jews that were killed in Germany, who were German, who were killed, is lower. I mean, I when I found I can't remember the exact number, but when I found out the number, I was like, wait, what? Like? I just it didn't click to me, the Polish Jews suffered extreme amounts of loss because they invaded. They didn't have time. They didn't know it was coming. And so you see the numbers reflected by country in a really interesting and different way. So anyways, we find out that Carl had been at Dachau, and then we kind of flash back to the 1930s we meet, well, I guess Bertie asks Carl if he knows like his friends. Then we flashback. We see them at this nightclub. They're having a great time. We get to see Sophie and Bertie meet. We get to meet Bertie's best friend, Gert and his other two friends. But mostly get and we sort of get to see this, like, really beautiful nightclub scene of pre Nazi takeover. And I think these scenes are really interesting and really important, again, for what we were talking about before, of like, it wasn't always looked at in the same way. Like there were, they called them transvestite cards that you could get and it would prove that you were, like, an approved trans person, and like they couldn't arrest you, yeah, yeah. And I thought that was just so fascinating. I mean, obviously, like, nobody should have to show their papers. But the fact that there was even this lane that was, like, there's an acceptable way to be here sort of goes against so much, I think, of how we talk about trans people now, of like, this new thing and, like...I don't know.

Denne Michele Norris 26:58

Yeah, it's listen, it's wild. And one of the things that drives me the most crazy in any conversation about transness, that is that goes beyond like being an internal conversation, is this idea that transness is new, and it's like, no our language that we use today is relatively new, but like, we have been here forever. And for me, what was really interesting about that, that those chapters, because I learned a lot too, was I had this sense. And I thought about this, this, and I first thought about this when we were presented with the black triangle as opposed to the pink triangle. But I almost had this sense that in some ways, it felt like being trans at that time in that society was perhaps more acceptable, even than just being gay, which is very different kind of than the way that it feels right now. And I don't know enough to know if that's really true, but I kind of got the impression that might be the case, and that it might have been, you know, partly a result, partly not, maybe not understanding what transness was and what to do with folks, but more that, like, there was a way that you could just sort of blend in to that version of society. And there's a section where Bertie kind of talk like, like, talks about this when you're in his head as the reader, and that for gay men and lesbians, again, I'm using today's language that that was not, they weren't seen as being able to blend into sort of normal society in that way. And that was just really, really interesting to me, right?

Traci Thomas 28:37

Like, it was, like, if you want to conform, we can make space for you to do that. Yeah, yeah. But like, if you're gonna be, you know, same sex, like, there, we can't hide it. We can't assimilate that into anything. I also got that sense, because there is that section where they're talking about, I think it's Carl and Verity And Carl's like, I but I like men, so I'm sort of both, right. And it's also like dealing with the like, again, the language of not having the language to talk about like, gender and sexuality as like, these two separate things. I mean, I think they had the language to do it, and they probably were doing it, but that the that like, on the outside of the community, there was no language for that. Like, yeah, was no way to be like, I my sexuality is this, and my gender is this. And, like, you know, yeah, I do. I do get that sense. I also, I also thought maybe they had a separate they were in a separate group because there just weren't as many. And so they kind of lumped everybody together who was, like, extra in the black triangle. But, but it did feel like there was a way to be accept acceptable trans, as opposed to, there was no option to like kind of work around for for homosexuals, yeah, that ability to blend in, yeah, which becomes so important in Nazi Germany for a lot of people, right? Like, the question becomes, are you going to be who you are, or are you going to be safe, right? Like, yeah, are you going to choose, like, your truth? I mean, I think there's a line in the book, I have a note on it, but it's like, we have to be who we are not in order to be who we are. Yes, yes. And it's very much that, I mean, that happens very early in the book. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. We'll continue with the plot. We're back onward in the story, so we find out that perhaps there's some world in which maybe Carl has crossed paths with Gert we don't know Carl's traumatized. Bertie and Sophie are trying not to be rude hosts. They're hiding Carl. And then we get the American Dun, dun, dun officer schweichkoff ward. He comes in, he's like, hey, oh, and Bertie and Sophie have fake names. They've taken the names of the people whose farm they're on, the baumans. We know. So what we know is that Gertz last name is Bauman, and we know that they've taken Bauman, but we're not exactly sure what the at this point. We're kind of piecing it all together, but we're not sure who's who. Why? How, how do we get Bauman? Whatever he Ward comes up, and he's like, Hey, Bauman, so you guys are Nazis, because obviously you're still alive and you're still in Germany, so we're going to need you to come to our little work camp and we'll see you in a few weeks. And they're like, well, we gotta leave. So they start to try to figure out, you know, there's this boat. It's going from Stuttgart, it goes to Amsterdam, like, maybe we can make this happen. They don't know. A few days later, here comes Ward again. He's like, knock, knock, knock. Hello, Nazis, it's me. Ward, come with me. They do a march, they go to a camp. They are like you're all Nazis, and look at what you did this you guys are sick. We hate you. We're gonna ruin your life. We're doing reparations. We'll see you in a week at this time, bear t is just he is overcome by what he's seen. He's so unhappy he doesn't know how to admit that he's not a Nazi without exposing that he is trans, right, right? He's in this situation because if he exposes that, that means he's got to go to jail. Don't want to do that. But also, if he has to pretend to be a Nazi, he has to pretend to be a Nazi. Doesn't want to do that. Oh, and they have this nosy neighbor, miss, uh, Frau bear, very, very nosy. She's in their biz. We're not sure what her deal is. We think she's on to them, but we don't know. We're gonna find out later. At the camp, they find, uh, there is a, there's like, all these artifacts, and one of them is a hat, a cap, and bear T's convinced it belongs to Gert his best friend. And sort of like, they like, fuck around a little bit, you know, they they mess around. They're young, they're in their 20s, or whatever. They're just like, they're hooking up, but they're also, like, hooking up with other people, you know, doing their shit and but he loves Gert he. And we keep getting this thing of, like, I feel so bad about what happened to Gert. Like, I've I'm to blame, but we don't know why. Yet we're just like, What did you do? Yeah, what did you do? Yeah, we see the cap. We get the cap. Distraught. Everyone is distraught about the cap. Sophie's like, no, no, it's not his hat. I'm, I tend to agree with Sophie, right? Like, it could be anybody's hat, right? Yeah. We go home, kind of skipping through some of the stuff I'm trying to like, just move the pace a little bit. Yeah, it could be his hat. It could be anybody's hat. I don't know whose hat. We go back home. Finally, I'm skipping a little bit, but just go with me here. We get back to the house. Finally, it's time for Carl to tell us what's going on. Carl, we need a reveal. At this point. We get this in the book, in the text, we get this one massive paragraph. It's like four pages long, and Carl tells his story. It is as bleak as you would imagine, a story of a trans person who is a child, basically, I believe he's 16 when he gets taken to Dachau, would be it includes sexual exploitation and, like, basically sex slavery. It includes loss, abuse, all of the things. What did you make of this section?

Denne Michele Norris 34:39

That was a difficult section to read. It felt necessary to me, partly because I tend to defer to like the author's choices and and instincts. But it was one of those moments, and perhaps because I'm in community with this author, I just kept thinking. And God, what was it like to write this? So I kept thinking about the experience of writing it, but I for me, I found it to be necessary and intense. I also one of my minor gripes with the novel is that I did feel as though in some of these moments that that sometimes come off as heavy handed or or more dramatic, the writing was executed in a way that, like that felt sometimes heavy handed, I guess, to use, to use the earlier language. And this was one of the moments where I was like, This is so intense, and the way that it's PERS that, the way that it's written, the way that it's crafted, the way that we experience Gert telling this story as readers is all like, very clearly done in order to give us a certain emotional reaction. And I also was like, I'm not sure I needed all of that to give me that reaction. Like it's so it's very, very intense, but it also felt necessary for the reader. It felt necessary to me, for the characters to get that insight and to get you know throughout the novel, at this point, you know that that Carl is holding back, and we don't know exactly what he's holding back. And so I think in some ways, it's also a moment of catharsis for the reader and for the characters, and perhaps most importantly, for Carl to take this load that he's been carrying and give it to the to Sophie and to Bertie, and to give it to the reader. And perhaps the most important thing I was thinking as I, as I, you know, was moving through the rest of the book, is that the reader needs to carry some of that load.

Traci Thomas 36:51

Yeah, so I also, I had, I struggled with this part a little bit because I don't know I understand, I think I understand why Milo Todd did it in this way of like, this one big paragraph, this one big just like Dr information drop on us, so that it really drives the point home. I think there, there is another way that it could have been trickled out information like less just like a drop, and more of like a like a steady stream. Yeah, I don't know that the impact on the reader, or the impact on bear T and Sophie's characters is as profound, or is as dramatic in the stream way, yeah. And I think, you know, I think the way that it's written, like as a paragraph, like one big paragraph, clearly, like demark, like marks, Milo Todd saying, like, this is important. This is different. Like, this is a thing. And so I did appreciate that of being like, this is a thing. But I don't know, like, I don't know if sometimes the trauma of all of the stuff kind of starts to wash over you a little bit, because it's just so much, like, even now. I mean, I just read this section yesterday, and I'm already like, Wait, how many people were abusing like, who was it? I know it started with the SS officer, but then there was this, like, it's like, some of it starts to get muddied because I couldn't quite take it all in, yeah, but I'm also so glad it was written out and not sort of just implied, because I think the specific trauma of trans people and of homosexuals in these camps is different than the stories that we often get for up from other groups, right, like that there. And I think another thing that people don't always understand about the camps is, like, there were so many hierarchies within the camps of like, you know, people who were who were there, who were taken there, who were incarcerated there, if that's the right word, who were then in charge of other people who were there. And so, like, there's these different hierarchies. And like, so we get some of that in this section that I think is so important to, like, reiterate to people, and it didn't that stuff I thought was, like, important to be there and was done in a way that didn't feel too like it was, like you're learning something, but like you're not, like, I'm teaching you something. I mean, I think one of the craziest things of Carl's story is that he was in Dachau for 11 years, and there were a hand, maybe not a handful, but there were a good chunk of people who were there for a really long time. Because again, until the very end, it was not supposed to be like one of the extermination camps. It was because, it was because it didn't have a lot of Jews, so it was really more like a jail, especially in the beginning, later on, as tides changed in the war, et cetera, et cetera, it did become that actually a fact that's not in the book, is that Dachau actually closed for like, two years in the middle because they had to, like, renovate it to make more space for people. So I was curious if that was going to be referenced, because I'm pretty sure everyone had to leave the camp, or most people did. But. Yeah, because it's one of the oldest camps, they were like, oh, infrastructure. Like, we gotta make better beds. Like, they changed the bed layout anyways. But there were a lot of people who survived for an extremely long time. Also at Dachau, they had a soccer league. They, like, it was like, one of the quote, unquote nicer camps, again, because they didn't have Jewish people. So there was some feeling, or didn't have as many. There was some feeling among the Nazis of like, these people are, like, just should be in jail and have their lives ruined this way, as opposed to being killed. But, like, it was a, it's a very, it's sort of like an outlier camp compared to, like, something like, something like, let's say Auschwitz, right, right, right. But it's just so interesting. Like, I didn't know all of those details till I went but, like, I was definitely like, Oh, nobody ever talks about like, these camps.

Denne Michele Norris 40:55

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they don't. I knew nothing about this camp. I had heard of it, but I knew nothing about it. So all of this information in the book was new to me, and it was really I just kept thinking about the choice, the choice, the choice that authors make. And I'm thinking about that now, because I think sometimes when you get like a big information dump, part of it is to sort of heighten the drama, but also, I think there's a way in which it might be perceived as being kinder to the reader, because it's like, I'm just going to give it to one one fell swoop, and then you can move through it. But on the other hand, it is, perhaps, I think it is sort of more impactful than if, or more dramatically impactful, I'll say, than if it was just sort of, you know, sprinkled throughout the text. So and the truth is that, like, one thing that I talk about as a writer is, like, I'm very interested in the idea of, like, being compassionate to readers and sort of making a reader feel safe when they're in my pages. And I don't know how you know Milo Todd feels about that, or how any other writer necessarily feels about that, but that is part of what guides like, the way that I make these choices. And I'm interested, I would be interested to better understand how Milo interacts with with thinking about the reader beyond just a craft point, right? In terms of trying to choreograph what you can choreograph of a reader's experience, right?

Traci Thomas 42:32

That's so interesting. I don't ever think about that because I'm not a writer, but it's interesting to think that writers are thinking about that at the end of Carl's monolog set, Bert birdie so sensitive is like, Okay, but what happened to Gert like Bertie, could you say sorry? Like, could you please be a human like this boy has just told you all the horrible things that happened to him for 11 years. He escapes and he like, comes here, and he lands on your land, and you're like, but again, do you know what happened to my friend?

Denne Michele Norris 43:08

My actual friend? I actually laughed out loud.

Traci Thomas 43:11

And then Carl's like, you bitch, you already know he's dead. Like, dang, you did ask for it like that, though, Bertie, if you had just waited and been like, Would you like a hug? Maybe you could have gotten a gentler release.

Denne Michele Norris 43:27

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 43:27

So then we find out Gert is dead. Birdie doesn't want to believe it. Sometimes birdie was pissing me off. I'm just like, Okay, babe, hope Bernie, hope is a power holder being a man, okay, yeah. I was like, birdie, you are truly, truly then. I mean, like, the next big thing that sort of happens in the book is that we kind of get this now flashback to 1933 right before the fire and birdie sort of lets us in on, oh, by the way, right before all this happened, this like, Kid showed up and was like, Hey, would love to get my papers. And Bertie's like, oh, sorry, we don't do that. And the kid's like, but you do do these, like, other two papers, and birdies like, yeah, we'll try. Great. Fills out the form. The kid leaves. Bertie sits down at his desk, and then he hears like, you know, down with Hirschfeld, like, get 'em. It's very beauty. And the beast, like, kill the beast. Bertie's, like, Uh oh, let me take my file. Let me just burn this really quick. And then let me get out of here. That's what he does. We find out that this young person who has shown up is, of course, Carl. Carl has filled out the form to get the paperwork that is needed to be a legal trans person attempting to do that birdie leaves his file and everyone else's file on his desk after burning his own. And he runs out, the Nazis come in. They collect all the files. I get everybody's name, yep, Bertie. I understand this is a traumatic I'm not gonna judge Bertie for this, because, honestly, like, yes, it's selfish. But also you're just like, What the fuck do I do? They're outside the gates, you know? Like, I understand not being like, oh, I should take all the files, where I should burn all the files. Like, I understand how that's an in retrospect moment for you after knowing what you know 12 years later. Like, yeah, would have been smart. Do you feel like, do you have strong feelings about what birdie did? Do you feel like you know Bertie should be in jail? Like, what do you think about about Bertie's choices?

Denne Michele Norris 45:41

Um, this is really interesting. This was, this was a complicated moment for me, because it really got me thinking about community and the ways in which we do and don't show up for community, and the ways we do and don't protect ourselves sometimes at the cost of community or vice versa. And you know, I have, I had to remind myself that, first and foremost, the problem is always the aggressors, the ones that are trying to do harm. That is I, but I had, but I had to remind myself of that right, like I had to be like, girl, you know, don't, don't forget. And I certainly understood how Gertie could forget or not forget, but could neglect to do that in that moment. I cannot imagine being in that moment and having the presence of mind necessarily to think about it on that level, but at the same time, it's like not much of a stretch, because he thought about it for himself. So, like he could have done it for everyone. So there was a little for me, there was a little bit of judgment, there was a little bit of this is what you could have, like, like, here's how you could have tried to step up for everyone. I also, but I thought about myself in that situation, and I feel like, for me, like, I always get nervous, because sometimes I might think, Okay, this is what I should do. But how do I know that that me making this choice isn't going to fuck things up for everyone else in the future. Maybe it's better for me to leave something as it is, and I am often tempted to be sort of deferential in that way, yeah, and I imagine that in that moment, I would be like, we don't know what's coming. We don't know what's going to happen. I know that this is going to happen, but maybe it won't be so bad, or maybe I might set people up to be fucked up worse. If I burn these records, maybe people will need them. And I could see myself, and I could see someone being really torn in that moment when they have to make a split second decision.

Traci Thomas 47:37

Yeah, same. I also am just like, if I'm, if I'm birdie, I'm thinking they're burning everything. They're going to burn the whole place down. I'm not thinking they're going to stop and collect our record. I mean, I guess I am a little bit because I do burn my own but, yeah, I just, I don't know. I don't, I think, because one of the, one of my issues with the book a little bit, is that I feel like too much hinged on us, like being upset with birdie, or like seeing the flaws in birdie because of this moment. And to me, I just felt like, I don't know, like, I don't think what he did was that bad, because I don't think he, you know, he thought it through. I don't think he had time like, I don't think he was maliciously. It wasn't like he was like, here's two files. Take this one and set kept himself right, like he didn't know what the next thing was, and it was such an uncertain time. And so I under like, I have sympathy or empathy for the decision that he made, and I almost wish, like, bigger picture, that more of the characters were flawed in a more deep way. Like, I almost wish that birdie had actually done something that was, like purposefully harmful, because I felt like, I felt like this book could have been richer if it had a little bit more, like, pull Yeah, morally right. Like, we get into the conversation of, like, later, when he's talking about, or in this section where he's talking about Dr Hirschfeld. And like, you know, his eugenic stuff ended up in the hands of the Nazis. And like, I wish there was more of that kind of, like, very clearly oppositional forces in the characters. Like, I didn't feel like Sophie, she didn't have any flaws. She was just lovely. She was teaching piano, like, and I felt like Carl obviously, was so pure, but also so was Gert. And it was just like, there was too many people who were too pure for me, like, from like, a story standpoint, you know, and like, I understand why you don't want to villainize a bunch of trans and queer people, but I also felt like a little bit that was sort of the, I think what Milo Todd was trying to do with the book, like trying to be like, we're all complicit. If you survived this, you did something that is not great. Whether. You felt like you had to, or you wanted to do it like, to survive the atrocities of war, people have to do things that are fucked up outside of wartime.

Denne Michele Norris 50:10

Yeah, I agree. I really do like I felt. First of all, I felt that the earlier half of the first half of the book was setting us up to have a moment where we saw Bertie do something that we might object to. And I just think it's really hard to object to this scenario and then for him to blame himself because of it, like, it just opens your heart to Him, and you're just like, Oh my God. Like, like, like, you should not be carrying guilt because of this. And so I also would have been very interested to see 30 do something that that I felt like legitimately causes guilt, especially because to your point, in order to survive this regime, for the for the years that they did, it almost feels like you would have to, and a reader would still be tempted to forgive something horrible for the sake of survival, and so that would be, like a more sort of interesting choice. And I certainly agreed about Sophie, where I was like, she, you know, she was like, the picture perfect ally, yeah, and wife. And I was like, What about the fears that she would have. What about having any fears around, like being associated with this? You know, it was interesting. You know, we're not in Sophie's point of view, so we don't know what her internal life really is, but there are ways to show that through Bertie's eyes.

Traci Thomas 50:10

Like even them just getting in a fight, where she's like, Well, what about me? You know, like, something that was just like, oh, maybe she's a little bit more selfish than than we are seeing, yeah. So, okay, so this all is revealed to us. There's this whole thing about, like, the Institute inspiring the Nazis and, like, there's this great line that it's sort of like talking about the trick of identity politics, which is that visibility without protection only leads to violence. And I think for me, reading this book right now in the United States, I think that was really like, highlight, highlight, highlight lesson of the book. Yeah, you know, like, I just think, I think Milo really, like, snapped with that one, you know, like, that's the line to me. Like, if you take one line from this book for me, that that was it. And there's this whole speech that precedes this, that's about canaries in the coal mine. This was where I was a little bit like, okay, it's a little on the nose, and I and in the author's note, Milo Todd says, like I wrote that speech, that is not Hirschfeld, like I wrote this speech. And I'm curious what you make of like Milo Todd showing his hand in this way, not only does he write it, but he also calls out that he wrote it in the author's note, which he certainly didn't have to, because he never presented any of the other dialog as anything other than fabrication. So I'm curious what you make of this choice of like, hi, it's me Milo telling you about canaries and coal mines and vulnerable people.

Denne Michele Norris 53:14

Um, you know, it's interesting. I i, part of me found it sort of admirable, just the transparency of it. One thing that I'll say, I felt like this part of the spirit behind this book was the spirit of as as a writer of transparency, in terms of, you know, how the book was written, why the book was written, many of the choices that were made in the book. And so I, I I admired that, and I also admired that, because for me, the characterization of Hirschfeld felt very complicated, like he he might have felt, for me, like the most complicated character through the book, given what we know about him, and and and Milo also addressed this in the author's note. When he's like, Well, we see him through 30 eyes, but also Hirschfeld was all of these things. So I think, I think ultimately, I thought it was admirable. I did not think it was necessary. I think I would have come away from that moment feeling the same way, even if, even if that had not been there, I would have assumed like that this, that that was, you know, purely born of Milo's imagination, you know.

Traci Thomas 54:27

Yeah, and I think like that section, the canary in the coal mine, thing to me, that just felt like such a 2025 moment, not because it's not like historically correct or whatever, but because it feels like what I hear trans people saying, especially black trans women, saying over and over, of like, the Trump administration is trying things out on us, like, I feel like I've heard that articulated so much in the last few years that reading it in the book, I just was like, Oh, this is from 2025 like, this was, that was a section of the book where I was like, that feels like today. Now. Granted that could probably have been in the book 10 years ago and still have been the same sort of thing, like the author writing it, but reading it today, it just felt like it almost took me out of the book a little bit, because I was like, Yeah, okay, I get it. Then we so then Ward comes back. We're back in 1945 Ward comes back and he's like, Hey, Bertie, I actually know your real name, and I know who the fuck you are. We found your records because you worked at the institute, so even though you burned your file, we figured it out, which is what Gert had told Bertie when they have this, like, big conversation about what had just happened, Gertz like, well, babe, you're dumb because you're in other records, but congrats to you. Now we're all gonna die. Let's go to my parents house or my grandparents house Ward's like, I figured out who you are. Birdie runs away, tries to, like, escape, goes to Frau bears house. We find out Frau bears, shady neighbor, not sure what's going on. Guess what she is? She's Jewish. She's not bear. She's bear. Different spelling doesn't sound great when I say it out loud, but she's a different kind of bear. She tells the allies or the Americans, and they're like, great, don't come to the work camp. Sorry to bother you. Love you mean it. So she's able to sort of hide Bertie. She finds out that bear T is trans, and she's like, Oh, just like the Bowman's grandson, like, what a nice boy he was. And then we carry on our way. Everybody meets back up in Stuttgart. They get on the boat, they go to Amsterdam. Not a big deal. Ward tries to get catch them as they're leaving, Amster as they're leaving, but not caught. And then on the boat to America, they meet a friendly Nazi. Because what else is a world war two book without at least one friendly Nazi? You know, Carl cannot handle talking to the Nazi. Bertie is just trying to play it cool. He's like, I'll be nice the Nazi. Not gonna say thank you to the Nazi no matter what happens. Not gonna say thank you. That was so relatable to me, because that's how I am. I'm like, I'm never like, I'll talk to you, but I'm never gonna say anything nice. Totally me. I was like, bearity, I see you. Then the not the friendly Nazi, is just trying to make small talk with Carl. Goes over to Carl is like, so like, you're learning how to play piano, cool, like, I love music. And Carl's like, don't talk to me. And he's like, chill out, dude. Like, just love piano. And he's like, don't talk to me. And then the Nazi puts his hand on Carl's back. Carl ends up in the ocean. Do you think that the Nazi pushed or do you think that Carl just was having, like, was just spiraling, could not handle the situation?

Denne Michele Norris 57:39

So this is interesting. I felt like Carl was spiraling because the vibes that I was picking up from the friendly Nazi were like, if there was gonna be anything more aggressive, it was not gonna be in the direction of pushing you off, pushing Carl off the boat, it was gonna be pushing Carl into the bed. So that's what I thought, too, yeah, so that's what, that's what I thought. And I wondered if maybe, you know, thinking back to what Carl expressed about doc, how I wondered if maybe, like, Carl had all those same thoughts too, and was picking up on it, I wasn't sure, but that was my that was my feeling.

Traci Thomas 58:16

Yeah, totally. So then Sophie dives into the ocean to get Carl, who is now in the ocean. They all work together, including the friendly Nazi and his friendly Nazi friends. Everybody comes back happy ending for the Nazis and everybody. Bertie's like, I don't wanna be friends with the Nazis. They're so nice. Carl's like, that's what makes them terrifying. I personally didn't need a friendly Nazi bit. I didn't need it. I understand maybe some people need it, but I also understand the history that, like, everybody was a Nazi, so some of them were nice. I get it. I didn't need it. I don't, you know, humanizing Nazis is really tough, especially right now. Also shout out to us for knowing that Ezra Klein fucking sucked when we recorded this girl. I know. I mean, I've been telling people I was talking about him saying, Maga, but like...

Denne Michele Norris 59:05

Yeah, yeah, but like--

Traci Thomas 59:06

I believe we had that. Listen to black women.

Denne Michele Norris 59:09

Listen to black women, but let me tell you, Ta-Nehisi.

Traci Thomas 59:14

He read him for absolute filthy filth. It was ragging dog shit on the bottom of my shoes. I said. I said, Ta-Nehisi finished what Denne and I started? Yes, he did. For those of you don't know we're talking about, yeah, he's a fan. For those of you who are talking about, go back to dense first episode on the show, because we had a pre Charlie Kirk dragging of our own it was it was mild, it was mild, but it was a lot of hatred. I did get messages from people that were like, I don't even know who Ezra Klein is. I was like, Okay, what does that make you cool? Like, I don't know. I'm too online. Sue me.

Denne Michele Norris 59:55

Like, sorry, we're consuming too much news. I've known this for years, so--

Traci Thomas 59:59

Yes, I'm like. I'm sorry that I have to do as recline as I can't believe you don't, but congratulations. Here's a check anyway. So yeah, I wasn't for the humanizing of Nazis. Don't think we need it. Understand why it's there. Don't think we need it.

Denne Michele Norris 1:00:13

Yeah, yeah. That was interesting for me. I, as a writer, I sort of feel like it's so important for us to be able to see the humanity in everyone that is on our pages. And I believe that, and I appreciate that as a reader, but I also, and I and so again, I was like, I feel like I understand why Milo did it. I've had so many narratives that have humanized Nazis that, like, I that's not a lesson that I need to learn. You know?

Traci Thomas 1:00:46

To me it was more like, I think, because, again, this was another part where it felt heavy handed. It was like you could have them have all those interactions. I just don't need you. I don't need the characters being like, he's actually kind of a nice guy. Like, we get it. Yeah, it would, it would have been more nefarious, almost, to be like, it was unclear, is he a nice guy, or is he not a nice guy? And, like, is he showing up to intimidate them, or is he showing like, I would have liked a little more gray area there, because I understand what Milo was trying to do. I just was like, I don't need this. I don't need this. Like Nazis, they're just like us, like, I don't know.

Denne Michele Norris 1:01:19

Yeah, no, it did not feel necessary. And for me, that's a big thing to admit, because I'm kind of all about, you know, that humanization. But I was like, if there's one villain that we're all very well acquainted with, it's, it's Nazis. And of course, they weren't, all, you know, completely evil in that way, because everyone was a Nazi. So there were some that were friends, like, it's just yeah, you know?

Traci Thomas 1:01:42

Nazis are not a monolith, you know?

Denne Michele Norris 1:01:45

Yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:01:46

We need the whole space for them.

Denne Michele Norris 1:01:47

We didn't need that. Like, I was so much more interested in, like, the characterization and the shifts of of that of the American, the Allies, yes, reward, than I was in the Nazi and the and the and that--

Traci Thomas 1:01:58

And he was a fantastic, he was a fantastic villain. He was, like, a, he was a really well rendered villain, and I felt like he did a lot of what happened later with the Nazis. So I just, you know.

Denne Michele Norris 1:02:08

Yeah, it wasn't, and it just wasn't necessary. Like, I agree. I was like, we don't, we just don't. We don't need that. We don't need it.

Traci Thomas 1:02:16

The end of the book, here's the end of the book. We get. We everybody makes it to America. They have their forged passports, and they go through Ellis Island. Some people are pulled to the side, and they're like, you can't come. Some people, like the good Nazis, are sent through. They make it through. Our people are pulled to the side, but taken to a special room. They're interrogated a little bit. They are allowed in. They're given new names. This is a historical piece of this is like a piece of historical fiction that happens a lot, where people are, like, given new names at Ellis Island. But I actually think the real history bears that that didn't happen because of the documentation people needed, that a lot of people retroactively changed or change their names after they arrived to assimilate. So I wasn't sure about this bit. I kind of was like, I read, I read that this isn't real. I understand that people think it happened, and maybe it did happen a little bit, but it didn't happen as much as people believe. Like everyone who's like, Oh, my last name's Smith, but it's because we came from Poland, and it used to be this, most of your great, great grandparents were just like, we don't want to have this Jewish or Polish name because of racism, which I understand. It's like we don't. I don't need to start off onto the wrong foot. Then they go into New York, they show up to Roy's house. I haven't even talked about Roy, but Roy was first American boyfriend, and he was like, if you ever need anything, come find me. I obviously thought Roy was going to be like a serial killer. Turns out Roy is just a lovely, sad boy, really sad that his boyfriend, Gert never showed up and they ride off into the sunset. Is Happy? Happy? I mean, yeah, yeah, the end, happy ending. Let me ask you this. I know a lot of writers who are trans, who write stories about trans people are extremely hesitant and resistant to the idea of a not happy ending for trans characters. What's your take on this?

Denne Michele Norris 1:04:11

I This is a really good question. I understand why that hesitation exists same and, you know, there are so few trans narratives, and I will say that, you know, I had to think about this with my own novel. I think, I think part of it is that we just, we need to get those stories out there, because we want our work to be hopeful for our readers, and I think it's really important. I would not have objected to a different ending in this novel I might see, I mean, partly because it's a historical novel, and so I. Think when the landscape of the story is familiar, I think there's more room and more grace for an ending that's more tragic. I was invested in the characters since I was happy about their survival, but it was just a little difficult for me to buy, yeah, entirely as well. Does that make like it was, yeah, you know, I think we have, I think it's, I think it's, I kind of think it's the next frontier we have. We the next step is to move into, you know, trans stories that are honest about the fact that the ending isn't always happy.

Traci Thomas 1:05:38

And I like that the trans person could be the villain.

Denne Michele Norris 1:05:42

Yeah, the trans person can be the villain. The ending doesn't always have to be happy. And also an ending that isn't happy doesn't mean that it's an ending that ends in like death, which I think right is also part of it, because so much of our stories right now are still about survival.

Traci Thomas 1:05:57

Yeah, yeah, totally. I think, honestly, if it were me, I would have let Carl go in the ocean. Interesting. I would have just let Carl go. I would have said this person did everything they could to survive and even still, like it wasn't enough. But I would have let Bertie and Sophie make it. That's what I would have done.

Denne Michele Norris 1:06:19

I might have killed off Sophie at some point. I might have--

Traci Thomas 1:06:22

Died in the ocean too. Honestly, died in the ocean. Like I feel sad when I thought she was gonna die, notion. I was like, Ooh, tough break, both of them.

Denne Michele Norris 1:06:30

I know I, you know what? We know what? I immediately started thinking of Glee's famous Naya Rivera saved her son and then couldn't save herself. And I was like, I was, I, it's almost like I had a flashback. And I was like, is that happened to Sophie? That would have worked? Yeah, and, but, you know, but it's, you know, I Yeah, it was. There was a way in which the ending for me felt, the ending felt Pat, in a way that I was just like, okay, like, you know, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:07:00

Yeah, yeah. I didn't. I understood why it was how it was, but I am famously always rooting for a murder, you know, like, I'm always, like, I always want the most dramatic possible thing to happen, which is not for people to be happy. Like, it's never satisfying to me if people make it out alive or happy or like, Fine, love. That's why it's tough for me to read romances. I'm just like, but could you kill each other first on the way out? Yeah? Yeah. I just have two more things I want to talk about quickly. One is, like, Would you watch a movie or TV show of this?

Denne Michele Norris 1:07:35

Yeah, absolutely, I would. I think for sure. Yeah, perfect. Being a TV show. I mean, maybe a mini series, but I think it's a phenomenal It's a great movie.

Traci Thomas 1:07:43

Yeah, for sure, yeah. And then we always, the last thing we always talk about is the title and the cover. The title is the lilac people. The cover is the back of a man in a field of wheat with some pretty clouds. I think the title is really good. I think the covers, like, whatever.

Denne Michele Norris 1:08:03

That's so interesting. I love the title and I love the cover. Like I had, I listen, I not to, but like, I think that the cover of my own novel is stunning and gorgeous and beautiful. I had a little bit of cover envy when I saw this cover. I loved it. I just the colors were, oh, really, yeah, yeah, I choose mine. But I love that. I love the colors and the way that they interacted. I loved the sky and the way to interact with that. I like a cover. Sometimes it's more like a painting. So I just like, I actually love the cover. It's one of my favorite covers of the year. Really, yeah, I get why.

Traci Thomas 1:08:41

I just think it's fine. I just don't, yeah, like, the back of the book, the back cover, which is just like the clouds and the wheat, without the man I respond to more than I think it's just the man. I don't know. I it's, it's a, it's tough for me.

Denne Michele Norris 1:08:53

It's a choice for him to be back, like, like, for us to see his back, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:08:59

And also, I'm just like, What is this? It doesn't really tell me much. No, it doesn't like. It doesn't it doesn't add to the like, I don't know. It doesn't make me want to pick up the book and read it. I do like the sky. I think the sky is beautiful. Also, like, shouldn't it be a fucking asparagus field? Like, come on, give me some songs of asparagus.

Denne Michele Norris 1:09:20

I do. I do love asparagus. I it's so it's interesting because I am not necessarily like I tend to prefer covers that don't tell you a whole lot about the book, although I think, I think it's there in a more in a subtle way, but I, but I think I tend to prefer covers that like, don't, that are not very often, knows for whatever reason.

Traci Thomas 1:09:44

I also think the person on the cover, this feels like a marketing thing to me, of like it's historical fiction. We need to put someone like in a costume on the cover.

Denne Michele Norris 1:09:52

Yes, yes. Yes.

Traci Thomas 1:09:52

And I just, I don't respond to that. I don't respond to that marketing.

Denne Michele Norris 1:09:55

True. That is 100% true. That outfit. I mean, it's totally something. Thing versus would have worn. But like, it's, it's interesting because, like, I sort of feel like that man is supposed to represent a trans masculine man, and I don't know that he does, you know, right?

Traci Thomas 1:10:15

That's sort of what I mean. Like, I don't think it tells us anything about the book. I think if you look at the book, like anything could be in there. And I think if you're putting the man on, you're trying to indicate something to us, but I don't think it indicates enough information to make him necessary. Yeah? But I also don't know what the cover would be. I do think it's beautiful, like, it's esthetically pleasing. I like looking at the book. But as far as like, what does the cover communicate to me? It's not a lot.

Denne Michele Norris 1:10:40

Yeah, no, it's not a lot. But I don't know. I look at it and my heart just like opens, like, truly I like it just like I for me, it is one of my favorite covers of the year. Like, it's okay.

Traci Thomas 1:10:50

Well, we're gonna end on that, and I'm just gonna ask listeners at home, comment on the Instagram post about this episode, what you think of the cover. I'm curious to know. Like, do you love it? Do you hate it? Do you think it's sort of good, but not great? Like, I don't think anybody hates it. I don't think it's like hateable. I think it's objectively, like a pretty good one, but, but tell us what you think. Go get Denne's book. She's got two out this year. One is the anthology she edited called Both/And which is a collection of essays from trans and gender non conforming writers of color, and then her debut novel, When the Harvest Comes, which came out earlier this year, is also out for you to read. Read both of them. Um, Denne, thank you so much for being here. This was amazing.

Denne Michele Norris 1:11:34

Thank you for having me. This was so so so fun. Like, seriously, I just had the best time.

Traci Thomas 1:11:40

And everyone else listen to the end of this episode to find out our October book club pick, and then we'll see you in the Stacks.

Traci Thomas 1:11:52

Alright y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Denne Michelle Norris for joining the show. Okay, now it's time to announce our October book club pick. It is spooky season. We are finally doing it. We will be reading Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. We'll discuss the book on Wednesday, October 29 and you can tune in next week to find out who will be joining me for that discussion. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the stacks, wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from The Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod, on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is by Tagirijus. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Wy'Kia Frelot
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Ep. 390 What Happened in Those 107 Days with Kamala Harris