Ep. 413 Indigo by Beverly Jenkins — The Stacks Book Club (Jasmine Guillory)

Written By Traci Thomas

It’s The Stacks Book Club day, and we’re joined by New York Times bestselling romance novelist Jasmine Guillory to discuss Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. Set in 1858, this book follows Hester Wyatt, a conductor on Michigan’s Underground Railroad, who is tasked with protecting Galen Vachon, a vital member of the Northern network. As he recovers from his injuries, their initial clash gives way to a deepening romance, forcing them to navigate their relationship while fighting for freedom. Today, we go through the book, plot point by plot point, to discuss how Beverly Jenkins skillfully infuses history into the narrative, the book’s tropes, and the relationship between the author and reader in romance novels.

There are spoilers in this episode.

Make sure you listen to the end to hear what our March book club pick will be!

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Jasmine Guillory 0:00

One of the things, like, people talk about a lot in, like, sort of craft, especially if you're doing, you know, more than one point of view. Is like, no head hopping, right? Which is like moving back and forth between people's heads, but like, she does this, and it works great. You know, like, there's a whole lot of head hopping in this book, and it's great. Most of my books are dual point of view. If there's a scene where, like, he's pushing her up against the wall, right, I want to be in her head so that we know she likes that right, and that she is encouraging, that that's something that I think about a lot.

Traci Thomas 0:34

Welcome to the stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today is the stacks book club day. I am joined by New York Times Best Selling romance novelist Jasmine Guillory to discuss our February pick, Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. This book is set in the 1850s it is historical romance that follows Hester Wyatt, a formerly enslaved conductor on Michigan's Underground Railroad who is tasked with protecting Galen Vachon, a vital member of the Northern network as he recovers from injuries, their initial clash gives way to deepening romantic feelings today, Jasmine and I talk All about this novel, including plenty of spoilers. We get into the differences between contemporary and historical romance writing, and we gush about the skills and talents of one Miss Beverly Jenkins. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks is linked in the show notes. And if you like this podcast and want a little more bookish content, well, guess what, babe, you're in luck. You can subscribe to my newsletter unstacked on sub stack for a bunch of my hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture news. And you can join the snacks pack on Patreon for some fun community conversations, our virtual book club, our active discord community and a lot more, plus your support on either or both platforms makes it possible for me to bring the stacks to you free every single week. So to join, go to patreon.com/the stacks and check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com All right, now it is time for my spoiler filled conversation with Jasmine Guillory about Miss Beverly Jenkins' Indigo

Alright, everybody. We did a romance this month. I am so excited to talk about it. It's book club day. I am joined again by the wonderful Jasmine guillery, Jasmine, welcome back to the stacks

Jasmine Guillory 2:43

Thank you so much. I'm very excited to talk about this book

Traci Thomas 2:46

Before we dive into Indigo. Since we last recorded, you had an announcement. So can you just quickly tell the people what was announced and when they can expect to get their grubby little paws on it?

Jasmine Guillory 2:59

Yes, I announced my next book. It is my young adult debut. It comes out October 6, and it's called it's only dancing. It's a little updated black take on Dirty Dancing, with a black former ballerina who gets drawn back into dancing via the hip hop dance instructor at her the family camp that her parents drag her to in the summer. And then there's some, there's some there's lots of dancing, there's some romance, there's some activity, there's some political activity. It's all very fun. So can't wait for people to read it.

Traci Thomas 3:40

Today we are reading Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. Well, we've read it. We're talking about it. It is a romance novel. There is a mystery in it. It was written in 1996 It is a story of Hester Wyatt, who is a conductor on the Underground Railroad in Michigan, Whittaker, Michigan. And when the book starts, she has been tasked with caring for the black Daniel, who is a well known slave, Freer black guy who's bringing the slaves north on the Underground Railroad. He is stabbed by who we don't know why. We also don't know they romance. That's the premise. And we always start here broadly, sort of what, what were your thoughts overall about the book? Super high level.

Jasmine Guillory 4:32

So it was crazy, because I suggested this book, and I because I everybody had told me that, like, this is Beverly Jenkins masterpiece. You have to read it if you like her other books. But I did not know much about it going in at all. Like, I didn't even really know the premise, because I I just sort of knew it was her masterpiece. So I just didn't pay attention. And was like, diving right in, yeah. And then as I was reading it, I was like, I did not realize how topical this book would feel right now, like, because the whole thing, I mean, because there, there's a whole big plot about, like, the slave catchers coming from the north to, like, kidnap people and take them away. And I was like, wow,

Traci Thomas 5:15

Like we're doing that right now.

Jasmine Guillory 5:18

Yeah, right now, right this minute. Yeah, in America. So that felt wild. And also, you know, there was a lot in because, because he is very light skinned and is from like, a rich family, and she's very dark skinned, and, and there was a, you know, a lot of discussion about that, and about, like, class in black America at that time, right? Which is something that, like, I don't really deal with today, but like, my family certainly did. You know, my my great grandparents left Louisiana and came to California, partially because my great grandmother was very, very light skinned and my great grandfather was very, very dark skinned. And, like, they couldn't go to the same place. To the same places together, and so they came to Oakland. And so I was like, reading this, and was like, Oh, wow. Okay, there's a lot more topical stuff in here than I really anticipated. Yeah, so that that was a fascinating read.

Traci Thomas 6:18

Okay, so here are my high level thoughts. I loved the book I love, that I realized in reading it that my problem with romance might be the contemporary romance. Because I feel like there is an expectation with contemporary romance, that it feels like real life, that if it feels corny at all, I'm like, nobody talks like that. Like, ew. But with this, you're like, whatever. It doesn't matter. It's melodrama. It's it's bridgerton. I love bridgerton, not the books. I've never read the books, but I love the show, because I'm just like, uh, you know, he's so incorrigible. Every time Hester would say that, I was like, Isn't he so incorrigible? Like, I was so into it. She's lifting up her petticoats, like she's rubbing the silk. He's like, you know, all these nicknames, mon petit, like, this whole thing. I was like, This is so corny, but, like, I'm here for it in this time period. And I think that maybe my reading of contemporary romance, it's too close to home. I'm like, I've been on a date before. Like, ew. Boys are broke. Yeah, boys are gross. This is stupid. But I'm like, oh, Galen, okay, yes, send me an orange. And also, I think just the stakes feel higher being a virgin, apparently very important. Innocence, extremely important. Cannot relate. Don't know what an innocent is, but like for me, it really worked. And things that I didn't like, I was like, it's fine. It doesn't matter in a way that not just with romance, but in a way that with a lot of like contemporary fiction, if something little annoys me, I cannot let it go.

Jasmine Guillory 8:06

and I will say, I have very different standards, I think, for men in historical romances than I do for men in contemporaries like men in contemporary romances, they cross a line. I'm like, no

Traci Thomas 8:21

Cancel him. He's done this book is horrible.

Jasmine Guillory 8:24

But for this one, like, like, you know, look, consent is real big, yeah? For me, yeah. I didn't love that he kind of forced her into marrying him, yeah? But I was also like, like, because, because there's certain things that do make more sense at a different time period in a different or at least, I feel like they do.

Traci Thomas 8:50

Yeah, I definitely want to spend a lot of time on consent, because I think there's some, like, very interesting mixed messaging in this book about consent. And also I was thinking a lot about like, what were the standards at the time? What were the standards in romance in 1996 when this book was written? And then, what do we think now, 30 years later? Right? Like, because there's these sort of three dueling, true, tripling, competing ideas. I do want to say as much as I love this book, I have 750 like, little tiny nits to pick with it, but I still loved it. Like, I just, I had a great time. It did exactly what I wanted it to do for me. So I was like, This is great. I'm having a great time here. But then there were, like, there's so many notes that I took that was just like, foster Why are you a bitch? Like, why are you the worst? Okay, but I want to ask you this, what was your relationship to Beverly Jenkins books before you said you'd read some, had you read the historical ones? Had you read the contemporary ones?

Jasmine Guillory 9:53

So I've only read her historical romances. I've never read any of her contemporaries. My favorites are she has a series set in California, like during the gold rush in, like near Sacramento, or something, which, which I really love, because they felt very timely, you know, like perfect for me. But yeah, so those are the, those are her books that most of her books that I read

Traci Thomas 10:18

And as a person, as a black woman who writes romance, is she like, she must be sort of important, because she's sort of

Jasmine Guillory 10:25

Oh like a at the peak of the mountain of the genre, I would say, you know, like, I went to the black romance book festival last June in Atlanta. It was the first one. And like, you know, there were a lot of readers there fangirling over authors. All of the authors there were fangirling over Beverly Jenkins

Traci Thomas 10:47

Do you feel like she like her work has directly influenced you? Are there things that you can point to, that you do, that you feel like are in conversation with her work?

Jasmine Guillory 10:55

I just sort of feel like none of us would be able to do this if it wasn't for her. So I'm not because, because I haven't read any of her contemporaries. I'm just not sure with what of my work is like, actively in conversation with her, but I do sort of feel like she, she and like some of her contemporaries, really like paved a path for a lot of other black women to follow.

Traci Thomas 11:20

Okay, this makes so much sense. So today, I think how we should do this is sort of go through the book in sort of plot chronological order, and then talk about some of the things that come up in the different sections. Because usually I kind of talk around themes. But there is so much plot in this book. It is 400 pages almost, and I did not know that I would be able to make it through. Like, I was like, that's a lot of pages for this. But the book starts with these letters from what we find.

Jasmine Guillory 11:52

Also, I think, by the way, for 400 pages for a romance is not that rare now. I think then it was much more rare, okay, because I was sort of like 400 and then I was like, wait a minute, in that like published in before 2000 like that was rare for a romance to be that long.

Traci Thomas 12:10

It felt, it felt, it felt big to me. Okay, so the book starts with these letters from a man to his sister, Catherine, which is like, I have fallen in love. I've sold myself into slavery to be with this woman. We're having a baby, and then immediately the next letter is like so we had a baby, and my current master died, so now I have a new master, and he sold my wife and my child down the river, and I'm dying. I'll be dead by the time you get this. And we did cut the finger, the tip of the finger off my kids, we can I definitely know who she is, and her name's Hester. Love you sister. It was a good it was a good bye. Yeah, that's all you must know. Yeah, we open the actual book with Hester. She's running her stop on the Underground Railroad. An injured man is brought in, we find out that he is the black Daniel, which to me, it's like, like, come on. It's camp. It's camp. I don't Okay. Let me ask you this, do you know like in the 1990s were romance novels like campy, or am I just projecting this on is this supposed to be in earnest?

Jasmine Guillory 13:25

I feel like, probably in earnest.

Traci Thomas 13:27

Yeah, because I was really like, this is camp.

Jasmine Guillory 13:31

Some of it in earnest, but also some of it is like, that is what was expected for romance.

Traci Thomas 13:35

Yeah, it's just like, heightened. The name the black Daniel, it's not like the black Peter is not doing it for me. No, like, there's something about Daniel. I was just like, yeah. Also the black, anything is all like, it just feels so, like coded. So, like I said, he ends up at her place. She's nursing him to health. They do not she does not like him. He is surly. He's entitled. He's hot, we think

Jasmine Guillory 14:10

When he doesn't do what she says, we're not sure if he's hot because he's all battered and bruised

Traci Thomas 14:16

He's battered, but like, we think he has a nice body. And like, there's a few moments where she's like, I can kind of see it. And be is also B, who is her aunt's friend, who also is, like, part of the underground community person. Yes, she's the nurse. She comes in to, like, sew him up. And she's sort of just like an elder that she loves. And be sort of like, he might be hot, you know, like horny, older lady. Like, I'm kind of into it. And anyways, so when he kind of comes to they start talking, and he's like, listen, there's a snake in the Whitaker garden. And she's like, I don't like you. I don't know what you're talking about. You're coming into my town. You're saying that there are people who are selling people out in this town. We're not into it. And. Yeah, he's, like, you don't have to believe me, Little Miss Thing. I like, honestly, I'm the black Daniel. Like, who the fuck are you? But like, I there's a snake. Like, I heard it. There's a snake. Like, we'll figure it out. I don't care. Like, you're not safe. Whatever. They start flirting. There's, you know, he's trying to flirt with her. She's not into it, but she's into it. Yeah? And then, you know,

Jasmine Guillory 15:23

she's a little, like, horrified. like, I am a woman of this parish. Why would you talk to me like that, right?

Traci Thomas 15:32

Also I'm doing you a service, like I am here caring for you. I don't know you, I don't really like you, like you're sort of being rude to me. And he sort of knows he's being rude. He thinks it's funny. He thinks it's cute. What he does do is he notices her hands, her hands are Indigo, colored dark purple, and because, and this is something that I want to talk about, which is the history that's in this book, her hands are purple because if you were enslaved on an indigo plantation, the way that you had to, sort of like harvest the Indigo meant that you had to touch the plant. It is blue, purple, like what colors jeans, and so your hands are stained. And so people who are enslaved on indigo plantations were marked by these purple hands for the rest of their lives. There's nothing you could do about it. So he instantly notices her hands, and he's like she was enslaved. And this is where we get the title, because he pretty quickly turns it into his pet name for her. He calls her Indigo, which I thought was very cute. I was very into it

Jasmine Guillory 16:36

Well and especially, like, I think this is, this is one thing that I that romance does very well. It takes something that she's mildly ashamed of Yes, and he turns it into like kind of a love word for her

Traci Thomas 16:50

Yes. And I feel like this, the things that she is ashamed of is a huge recurring theme throughout this book, and what you're telling me is that's common in romance, like the shame element, yeah?

Jasmine Guillory 17:05

Well, not quite exactly the shame element, but like turning around something that you don't like about yourself I see, and that being something that he sees as beautiful,

Traci Thomas 17:16

Like your thing, and that he validates this thing that you feel. Okay, got it, yes, romance. The thing about me is, I love a rom com, like movie, like, I love a romance movie. I think it's just with the books. I need it to be a little more cringey, you know, like, it's like, almost too normal. I need, like, more embarrassment. Okay, so he calls her this nickname. I'm kind of gonna jump ahead because they kiss, which is what I want to get to. He discovers that she has been like, feeding him all of her food. She has no money. And he's like, Don't ever go without because of me or anyone else. And she's like, well, you need your strength. And he's like, don't do it because he's kind of pushy. Yeah, he's very pushy. And then they kiss on page 100 and this is how it's described, because this is the first thing I want to talk about, which is Beverly Jenkins euphemistic language. His mouth brushed her lips, and he gathered her in closer. She came willingly rising up on her bare toes to meet his lips. Galen groaned as her arms encircled him. Her luscious mouth was as perfect as he dreamed. It had not been his intent to kiss her this way, not this deeply, not this slowly, not this intensely. But he could no more stop himself now than he could halt the pounding in his blood. So this is their first kiss. She starts to feel a lot of things. I want to talk about romance writing, because I do feel like this is something that has maybe changed a lot, yeah, how we talk about having sexual relations with one another?

Jasmine Guillory 18:54

Yes, I think that like, I mean, I think contemporary romance very much so historical romance there, because, partly maybe because the audience for historical romance is maybe a little different, and so maybe progresses slower. But I still think the language is definitely much less euphemistic now, in kind of all of romance than it used to be

Traci Thomas 19:22

Because like, I don't think we get, we don't get a penis or a vagina. We get his manhood. We get her pleasure, her Cove,

Jasmine Guillory 19:31

late in the book. And I was surprised about this, she used the word orgasm, which is, I think, the only time it was mentioned. And there were a lot of orgasms

Traci Thomas 19:40

There were a lot of orgasms. There were, there were pre sex orgasms. Galen is a good lover. I feel like, really, he is sort of this, like, I mean, I know that in romance, many of the men are sort of a fantasy. But like, he appears to be the sort of dream man that is both very pushy, very rich, and also, like, a very invested pleasure lover, yes, and so I feel like that's partly why you're like, it's okay that you're like, non consensually doing so many things, because it's like, you really have her best interests in mind. She orgasmed 94 times.

Jasmine Guillory 20:22

And she told me, this is jumping out a little bit. She told she kept telling him not to stop sending me get, you know, stop sending me gifts. And he's like, whatever you say, and then he would just keep doing it. But there were things like oranges, yeah.

Traci Thomas 20:35

And then he's like, do you want me to stop sending the oranges? And she's like, I mean, you can keep sending the oranges. Like, that's fine, which I get, honestly, I prefer a gift that I can eat to, like most other gifts, I'm like, You don't know my taste in nightgowns, babe. Like, just send, send the fruit. Okay, send the chocolate. So they have this romantic encounter, and then it is this exact night that Galen is taken away in the night by his friend, Raymond and his man. No, his man doesn't come. It's Raymond and his Raymond's brothers, yeah, and he leaves. And it's I at this point. I'm sort of like, what, where are we going here? Like, I'm like, we're 100 pages in, and I'm just like, it's done meanwhile. And I am sort of like glazing over some of the other stuff because there's so much plot. Later he leaves and then Hester is a not tough place financially. It's been a cold winter. She's already sort of relied on the help of her neighbors, and she's like, I can't do it anymore. I own this house because her family, her dad's family, had been free for a very long time. It is only her dad who is voluntarily sold himself into slavery for love, but his the house, the Wyatt Family House, has been in the family for a long time. They've got a lot of land. They've got some apples that are not well kept, but they've got them. And so she decides to sell some land, and the rich family in the town, they've sold this extra house they have because the daughter was supposed to get married, and then, like, ran off, or was sold off.

Jasmine Guillory 22:09

And, well, no, that comes up later, right? It says she runs off. But apparently, no, the dad sent her away because she because he doesn't want her to marry the guy, the person that she's in love with

Traci Thomas 22:21

with, yes, yes, yes, yes. And so someone buys this house, which is the neighboring property, and that person who buys the house sends their man, Renaud, to Hester's house, and is like, can we just buy like, a few acres? And she's like, Yeah, sure. How much? And he's like, like, I heard you were in the market. Yeah, I heard you went to sell some acres. And she's like, Yeah, great. He's like, Can I Can we pay you this much? And Hester sees it, and she's like, Oh my God, it's like, three times too much you you literally can't, like, I won't let you. And renaud's like, what? And she's like, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm just a good Christian woman. Like, I know. And he's like, Okay, how about half? And she's like, it's still too much. But like, Okay, I could do good work with this, you know? I could, I could free the slaves with this. Like, it's fine. He leaves

Jasmine Guillory 23:13

He leaves. I can't remember, he leaves. And, like, leaves her a note or something. Yes, he leaves. And that's how she discovers the that the black Daniel was the one

Traci Thomas 23:24

and the black Daniel's real name is Galen. Galeno, but he goes by Galen. That's the anglocized version. It leaves a note that's like, Hey, boo, so excited to be neighbs. And she's like, Ah, my heart. Ew, also, ew. Why is he doing this? Also, you shouldn't have given me all this money. Yes, also given this money. And then that night, this is, this is one of the worst parts of the book for me. That night, he's just in her house. He just sneaks in through the underground railroad tunnel and just watching her sleep, and leaves her like a blood red rose. In that moment, I took a note in my notes, and I said, this could also be a horror novel.

Jasmine Guillory 24:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, because, also because, you know, this was foreshadowed early in the book, right, where he made her show him the secret places in the house. And he was like, show me the one into your bedroom. And she was like, why? And he was like because I want to see it. And she did. And I was like, this get, I have read enough books to know he's gonna come in through her bedroom.

Traci Thomas 24:30

And the other, the other, sort of, like Chekhov's gun in the book was the bathtub. It's like, oh, this beautiful black bathtub with like white etching, and it's inherited. It's exotic. And I was like, I know enough about foreshadow to know a bathtub in the first 100 pages is sex in the bathtub in the back 100 pages. Okay. Said, Sign me up, boil that water. So he creeps into her house, very creepy. Then, like the next day. Guess who always I forgot to say this. This is so important to the story. Hester is talking to Galen. They're like, getting to know each other when he's, you know, in her house, and he's like, so, like, what's the deal? And she's like, oh, you know, I'm, like, engaged to be wed. And he's like, oh. And so in my mind, as a person who doesn't read romance, but I do know some of the things that romance people don't like, and cheater is a big and so I took a note, and I said, How's this gonna work? I'll tell you how it works out. First. She says, this is, this is just a marriage of companionship. We don't love each other, our minds just get along well, whatever. And so I said, Okay, maybe this is gonna be it. But then Miss Bev was like, Don't worry. I don't want you to have any feelings about Foster. Okay, I live for foster. He's my favorite loser ever. She gets a note that's like, Foster's gonna be in town. He's back from studying at Oxford. So she's like, I gotta pick him up from the depot, because that's my boo, even though I you know, we're just friends, but we're gonna get married. She shows up. Oh yes, they have she has a terrible mule. It's a terrible ride

It's muddy, but she's doing it because this is foster she has to do it. She has to go pick him up

Foster's her boo, unfortunately. But guess what? Everybody who hasn't read the book, Foster has taken a bride on the boat okay?

Jasmine Guillory 26:31

Turns up married. Turns up to greet his fiance, and says, Here's my wife.

Traci Thomas 26:37

I've been struck by love. She's pure sunshine. I'm like, ew. Also, just like, honestly, bro, you don't have to gas up the new girl, you know, like, you already married her. You don't have to be like, Oh, she's so great. I love her so much. Like, okay, if I want you to be best friends, it's like, foster just drop the news and go, honestly, get one of your friends to pick you up. Like, so disrespectful. And then he's like, did you just come and say hi, or did you want to give us a ride home? And she's like, I guess I'll give you a ride home. And then the mule is fed up with foster shit and won't move, so they're stuck. It's, it's, it's Hester, it's Foster and then it's Janine. I think that's her name, right? Janine. Janine, I think so, spelled in a way that was confusing to me, but yes, Janine and they're stuck and Foster's like I saw a house back a little bit. I'm gonna go check in. Well, if you are listening to this podcast, you know whose house that is? You know who's coming? Who rescues them? You know who comes? He's hot, he's rich. He loves to go down on women. It's Galen. Here he is. He's got a big horse, he's got a big carriage, and he's got a big heart, among other things. And he picks them up, and he small talks with them. And one of my favorite scenes in the whole book is Galen and foster talking about race like then, like, sort of like, having, like, a little big dick competition, and it's just so it's so funny, it's so cringe, and I love it. And so basically, we've solved the problem of her having been betrothed pretty quickly, and, like, pretty effectively, because foster we find out as an asshole, he keeps saying mean things about Hester, like he's like Hester's no beauty

Jasmine Guillory 28:28

He says to her face, that she's not beautiful.

Traci Thomas 28:31

I think here's the line. He says, women, this is, this is a little bit after he says, women can be quite remarkable, can't they? Take Hester, for example, she's no beauty, but her mind is first rate. And then Janine says, what about me, fosty? And then he says, You, my darling, are as beautiful as Sheba. This is in front of Hester,

Jasmine Guillory 28:54

also the way Janine, who we will talk about later, calls him fostie fostie.

Traci Thomas 29:01

It's so good, oh, it's such it's so funny. And Janine is just like, she's dumb as rocks. That's how she's presented to us. Very beautiful. Has a large bosom. That's sort of what we know about her from jump. And they've met on this thing, and she's sort of just like a pretty girl, and they're so in love, and she's so in love with him, and he's so in love with her, and that's it. And everyone gets it and feels bad for Hester because her like, nerdy sort of boyfriend has found like a hot babe, essentially. Yeah, right, she's sort of the dumb blonde archetype, though. She's not blonde to my understanding, yes. Then we kind of jump forward a little bit. She goes. She foster wants to build a school. So Hester is like, he's still my friend. And more importantly, this is good for the community. The school is good for the Yeah, and I know that Galen is sort of into me. We've, like, made out a few times. He's put his hand up my skirt a little bit, and I liked it. And he has a lot of money. He's rich, and he's, you know, he's sort of teasing this idea that he might, you know, be the benefactor. So she's like, I'm gonna go, sort of see what can happen. She goes, and she meets John Brown. And John Brown is important to this story, because I have not told you all Hester's backstory, which is that she was, as we said, enslaved, and she, the way that she is freed, is that a speculator, who is a person who basically would travel from plantation to plantation, looking for people to buy, to sell to other like, it would be like, Oh, I've I need a girl with small hands who can work my loom. And it'd be like, Oh, this guy's selling his girl with small hands. Let me kind of be the middle man. So a speculator comes, obviously. He looks at her. He sees her. He like checks out her hands. He checks her out. She ends up getting sold. She's devastated. She has to leave her only friend. She has no mother, she has no father. She's got this one friend and her friend's mom. Very sad, very tragic. Turns out that this speculator, John Brown, was actually part of the Underground Railroad and had been employed by Catherine, and had been searching for Hester for years, and was able to find her because of the finger, piece of the finger that's cut off, so it's sort of he is really the hero. But the way that this scene is written, I was like, a little bit like, even though I knew she got out, I was like, what's happening? Yeah, it is this night that she does receive her first orgasm when she goes to visit, which is described as suddenly, Hester's body soared to crescendo, and her world exploded. She became a shooting star streaking across the night sky. The intensity of the feeling flung her into realms never before known, and she clutched at his arm as she rode the buffeting wave. Iconic. I love it.

Jasmine Guillory 31:50

It's perfect.

Traci Thomas 31:51

It's perfect. I mean, here's the thing, this quality of the writing in this book is exceptional. Yeah, like the tone, the like, it's Pitch Perfect all the way through, even the things that, like, I don't love are exactly correct. Like, the book is, like, a well written document

Jasmine Guillory 32:14

Yeah and like, I the voices of each character, you know, because it the point of view flips back and forth between them, and it's done so well. And that's actually one thing that I wanted to talk about. The way that the point of view flips back and forth is also different from how it would be done now

Traci Thomas 32:34

Because now in romance, it's like she gets a chapter, he gets a chapter, or like she gets a section, he gets a section. But this would be like, we're with her, we're with her, with with her, and it's all third person, but it's like, super duper close third person. So it's like, you feel like she's talking about being shot into space. And then it's like, and Galen could feel and it's like, oh, wait, now I'm with Galen.

Jasmine Guillory 32:55

Yeah. And at least, like a section break or something. But it also flips back and forth, like quite a bit each chapter, I feel like which I like? I enjoyed it. I think it's perfect for this book. But it is like, it is very different. You know, 30 years later, I guess in romance

Traci Thomas 33:15

And as you're reading it as like a person who does this craft for your work. Obviously, it's different than how I'm reading it. But what are you noticing? Like, what is effective or not effective? How do you think about it in relationship to like, what you see now?

Jasmine Guillory 33:30

Well, it's so interesting because one of the things like, people talk about a lot in like, sort of craft, especially if you're doing you know, more than one point of view is like, no head hopping, right? Which, like, head hopping is like moving back and forth between people's heads, kind of without section breaks, or without, like, you know, making it seem but like she does this, and it works great, you know, like, there's a whole lot of head hopping in this book, and it's great, maybe in the first chapter or two, I was a little confused, because it did move between without any like, but then you get used to it, and then there was no confusion, you know, like, it's very easy to tell when you've switched into someone else, you know,

Traci Thomas 34:14

yeah, and I sort of, what I sort of liked about it is that I felt it sort of signified like a mutual enjoyment, or like a mutual understanding, in a way, even when they didn't agree necessarily, but it was like, Oh, they're sort of on the same page, like, and I think sometimes, because some of the stuff that Galen does is a little bit like, pushy, yeah, have being able to go from like, him being like, I'm doing this because whatever, and being able to immediately know how she feels about it sort of felt like a safety for the reader to be like, okay, he's not that bad. She's into it like she's giving the signs, yes. You know, when I was a freshman in college, they did a song that was like, no doesn't always mean no, but it always means stop. And I think about that a lot in romance novels,

Jasmine Guillory 34:58

Yes, totally. And. And like, in, like, even in the, in the horror movie scene, right, where he's, like, standing by her bed, watching her and leaves her the rose. And then, like, very quickly she wakes up in the morning and is, like he was here and is happy about it, you know. And so that, like that does make those moments a lot better.

Traci Thomas 35:17

And when you're writing romance, and you know, you have to do something that's like, sort of unlikable. Are you super conscious of like, how am I gonna make this work so that I don't fuck this up for the reader?

Jasmine Guillory 35:29

Absolutely. And I really pay attention to whose head I'm in. Because most of, not all, but most of my books are dual point of view. If there's a scene where, like, he's pushing her up against the wall, right, I want to be in her head so that we know she likes that, right, and that she is encouraging that things like that to like, make it clear that there is consent, or who's, you know, how someone else's feelings are about these things like, that's something that I think about a lot

Traci Thomas 35:58

You know what? Let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. All right, we are back. So here's what happens. I've left out a character, a main character in this book, who's really going to sort of step into the story. But first Galen got to spend money. He's got another party to throw. He because he is using every opportunity he can to be close to Hester, because Hester is not showing that she's that interested. I mean, like, we know she's into it, because she's going over there at 10pm like she's she's into it. He's sending gifts. She's wearing the gifts. But he throws a party in honor of foster and Janine, which I also think is very funny, because he's very much trolling her with them. She's like, Oh, you and fostie didn't, or he doesn't call him fostie he calls him Frederick, he's like oh you and Frederick didn't cuddle? here, come lay your head on my large chest. And like, okay, don't mind if I do, Galen.

well, and also, and also, he wants to find out who the traitor is, yes, and so he's supposed to party. He's having this party partly so he can meet everyone and, like, really try to figure out who it is that's like, selling people literally down the river

Exactly, and so after the party, she leaves, he's like, I'm gonna come see you tonight. She's like, don't do it. And he's like, I can't promise. So obviously, he's coming. He shows up at her house. She's tried on one of the silky negligees he's gifted her. And he's like, but first we need to go over the list of everyone who was at the party. So they go over the list. Nothing so sexy time. Now this is this thing that I've left out. There is a slave catcher in town. He's got a perfect villain name. His name is Ezra shoe. The names in this book are every single one is perfect, perfect Ezra shoe. It's genius. He has captured Fanny and James Blackburn, they are Hester's neighbors. They're sort of just like, they're no big deal in the town. They're not like causing a ruckus. They're just, you know, regular people. They're just regular people who happen to escape the cruelties of chattel slavery. And so Hester and the ladies of the of the Underground Railroad community. They work up a plan. They work up a scheme. Hester and her switch outfits and hairstyles, and Hester stays in the jail where she's being kept, and Fanny is escaped. They also, the men work up a scheme to escape James, which we don't really hear about, because there's nothing to do with us. There's no sex there, like we don't know, we don't care. Nobody's having sex there, and it works out. But the kind Sheriff, there's a very kind sheriff in the town, Sheriff Lawson. He's like, listen, Hester, I liked your aunt. I like you. You got to stay in jail overnight. Like, I'm so sorry, boo, but like, you guys can't just be breaking people out of jail while she have to pay me your bonds. Yeah, yeah, you got to follow the rules. exactly. And she's like, I get it. I'm gonna, like, sell everything I've ever owned to do that. And he's like, okay. She's like, it'll be ready in the morning. And then he's like, by the way, I promised my wife I would go to see, like, the city's performance of our town, or whatever. She's like, it's fine. Just like, lock me in because I don't want anything bad to happen. And he's like, by the way, take this pistol. And she's like, Okay, sure. And then surprise who shows up Ezra Shu and his band of fucking assholes, and they're like, we're gonna rape you. And she's like, I'll shoot you. And they're like, No, you won't. So she shoots, like, next to him, and because of the gunshots, fosti and Galen and everybody comes, and they're like, what's wrong? And then the sheriff comes and he and galen's like, you want $75 like, here's a million dollars in gold. Please. Please release the lady just throwing gold on the floor. He literally has a package of gold. He's like, Here you go. Here's gold. It is. This is a big moment, because Galen has now, again shown up and sort of forced himself into the conversation, which is, which is, you know, very par for the course. But we love it, because we don't want to, we don't want to be in jail. We continue forward Galen admits that he is in love

Jasmine Guillory 40:16

But I appreciate that she had the gun she has been shooting the gun before Galen came.

Traci Thomas 40:23

Yes, our Hester, while she is an innocent, she is no damsel in distress, no, she's a tough lady. She's no stranger to hard work, right? Like she's but she'll use it for a slave catcher any day. Yeah. Okay, so Galen. And Galen admits that he's in love with Hester on page 228, in my copy. And he's like, I love you. And she's like, it doesn't matter, we could never be together because I'm formerly enslaved and you appear to be extremely wealthy and light skinned, yeah. And he's like, do you think I care?

Jasmine Guillory 41:02

By the way, I have to note, she called him the color of butter, which delights me. And there were we talked in the last podcast about kin by Terry Jones. And one of the things that I loved in that book was that she also called a character the color of butter. And I just like, love that description, yeah. So much. Like, like, for a light skinned black person, like, the color of butter, yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 41:28

And I love the like, I mean, we'll get to this a little bit later, but I do love the sort of super detailed, nuanced discussions, like intra community in this book, because a lot of the things that this book is doing someone in the stacks pack referred to it as adult American Girl doll, where it's like, yeah, you get a story, but you also get a lot of history. And I feel like a lot of what Beverly Jenkins is doing is teaching, like, about, like the Fugitive Slave plots and all these things.

Jasmine Guillory 41:55

Now, there's a lot that I know about, like, slavery in America. I did not know the Indigo stuff at all.

Traci Thomas 42:00

Oh, I only knew that because Imani Perry, but yeah, black and blues, because Indigo is a big part of that

Jasmine Guillory 42:07

Yeah, but like that, like, there's all sorts of little fascinating things like that.

Traci Thomas 42:12

And I felt like, so what I appreciated about is, like, I appreciate the teaching and the history, but what I liked about sort of the intra community stuff was that it also felt very much for black readers and not about teaching, like it was, like little things, like the color of butter, or, like, the kind of conversations, like, there's a moment later that we'll talk about with Bea where she says something, and I was like, That's right. Like, of course you would do that. It's not super attractive to do that. But, like, of course, and so I really appreciate that, because I think while she's clearly doing teaching for people who don't know, she's also reserved pieces of this book for black people to be like, This is Our Story, and this isn't actually for white audiences or uneducated audiences. Next thing we know Janine, our little cutie patootie with the big tits, so shy, but not so shy not to be found having sex with Lem at the school house, in the school house. And for those of you don't know, because I didn't tell you, Lem is Bea, the town nurse lady, her son, who has recently appeared on the scene. He be had escaped when her kids were young. She was not able to bring her kids north, and Lem escaped himself and found his mother. So it's this reunite, reunification. And LEM is horny, and so is Janine, and they're lovers, and they're having sex in Foster's School, at Fostie's school!

Jasmine Guillory 43:41

He just got the funds. He just got the funds

Traci Thomas 43:44

And Galen and Hester find them.

Jasmine Guillory 43:46

And, well, Hester is bringing over books for the schoolhouse.

Traci Thomas 43:51

We love books. My God, not in front of the books. And immediately, Janine is like, if you fucking say a word, I will tell everyone that you guys are fucking. And I said they actually have not had sex yet. I've been waiting they have not had sex yet, first of all, and second of all, I thought Hester and Galen played this totally wrong. They should have said it's crazy that you think that I'm the benefactor of this school and I happen to have books. You might have think you saw something, but we barely, we just met on the road with you. It's insane that they don't go that way. They go, don't say anything. And she's like, I will if you say anything about me, I didn't like that

Jasmine Guillory 44:39

and they're like, well, we won't say anything, but

Traci Thomas 44:41

anything, but then galen's also like, but if you say something, I'll have you, I'll have you skinned and dried. Yeah, she's like, okay. Like, please do after that, we do have sex. On page 253, we finally have sex. Here it is, ladies and gentlemen, you've been waiting. I certainly was waiting, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, to ready her for his possession. GALEN slid a finger into her virgin Cove, iconic. She tightened around Him and He shuddered his own pleasure was put off a moment so he could enjoy the sight of her. He eased his fingers out once more, touching, circling, then while she lay dazed, pulsing and keening softly. He eased his manhood into her damp heat. Hester stiffened. Oh, my God, I love it. I love it. She stiffened. The next day here, well, actually, go ahead.

Jasmine Guillory 45:43

Okay, so I don't remember if this happened right before the sex or right afterwards, but she after seeing Janine and Lem having sex because Hester's virgin eyes had never seen anything like this before, she goes to bea who's like the midwife.

Traci Thomas 46:00

She actually goes to Galen and she says to him, is what Janine and Lem doing, is that what our next step is and he's like

Jasmine Guillory 46:11

Which I loved that she phrased it that way.

Traci Thomas 46:14

And he's like, yes. And she's like, it looked painful. And he's like, only once. I'm here to tell you, it's actually not only once, it can happen later in life, and not that I would know, because I'm also a virgin with kids. Jesus, obviously. Yeah, Mary. But is this a trope like innocent woman, virginal woman? Is this a trope that women are into that is common, or is this like, specifically, more historical trope?

Jasmine Guillory 46:44

I feel like, well, I feel like there are two historical tropes at work here. One is definitely the Virgin woman, which I feel like is pretty accurate for some, some historical you know, but also like the rake the Virgin woman who like manages to get the rake to fall for her, yeah, is also a huge one. And so he's, you know, the he's the one who, like every woman falls in love with, but then he falls for her, right? That is really the trope. That's really the trope. One of the things I love that has about Hester's, you know, as the the Virgin woman, but he's also not embarrassed.

Traci Thomas 47:26

Yes, I was just gonna say her shame that we talked about earlier, of being like all of these things and not knowing and whatever. And she keeps being like, is this like she says early when they first kiss, like their first sexual encounter. Proper women aren't supposed to like this or something, right? And I thought it was really interesting that through the course of the book, she's eventually just like, This feels good, right? This is really good. And like, I don't know that it's proper or not, but like, I'm here for it. And I feel like I really like that, because I find the innocent trope pretty off putting, but I like that. It's really more of like coming into your sexuality, which I do think is, like, a pretty common trope, right? Like woman unexperienced woman, or, like, maybe a woman who's had a bad partner then finds a partner who really pleasures her and realizes, yes, exactly, exactly. So like, I do really like that. Okay, so then we get foster he's like, hello, are there any whores in the house?

Jasmine Guillory 48:30

Before that, she goes to bea and goes, I have some questions. I have some sex about, can you explain these things

Traci Thomas 48:42

Because galen's Like, there could be a baby in there, which I was like, You manipulative piece of shit. And she's like, B, where do babies come from? And B's like, gives her all the answers, and she says, like, she gave her all the answers, and some of them were a little graphic, and Hester didn't like it, but that's the truth. So we get this sort of sex ed class very quick, and then we get Knock, knock, knock. Foster says, Are there any whores in this house specifically named Hester? You slut, you slutty, slut, slut. How dare you whore? And these are Hester's worst nightmares, right? That the town is talking about her. She goes into town. The women are like, we heard you're gonna get married. Half people think she's just fucking on the side. Half people think that they're together. It's all. Nobody knows. It's it's both, it's neither. Galen's Like, you got to marry me now. And she's like, we can't get married. You don't marry people like me.

Jasmine Guillory 49:38

Your family will be unhappy. You'll be unhappy late society. And he's basically like, I don't fucking care.

Traci Thomas 49:44

I don't care. And she's like, you're not gonna want this forever. But then he's like, will you be at church on Sunday? And she's like, hello, you know, like, my name is Hester. I'm gonna be at church on Sunday. And the. Preacher does a full fire and brimstone, like, there's some whores in this house, like on repeat. And then Galen gets up and he's like, actually, cut it out. I love her. We want to get married. Recites lines from Song of Solomon. We want to get married. I want to get married now. And this is, to me, the biggest sort of conundrum in the book. Yes, this is what I would call a non consensual wedding. Hester is like, I can't say no, I have to say yes, because now everybody has said we've had sex.

Jasmine Guillory 50:37

Yeah? And like, this man is up here quoting song of solomon.

Traci Thomas 50:41

He's talking about me. And so she says, Yes, but here's my thing earlier in the book, multiple times. Galen says, you'll always have a choice in this. You know, you can always say, No, I only want to do things that you want to do. And then he sort of is like, like, right before the marriage, right before the like, horrible nightmare proposal, he says, or like, we get his point of view.

Jasmine Guillory 51:09

Well, he had proposed to her a number of times before, and she had said no. She said no to or ignored.

Traci Thomas 51:16

And so then we kind of get this is from his sort of point of view, non point of view, his vast wealth and influence would shield her from the consequences of gossip that would result from what he was about to do. He just hoped she would see the right in his actions and eventually forgive him. Someday. I just feel like going into a marriage like sort of on that footing is like, maybe not ideal.

Jasmine Guillory 51:38

Yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 51:39

I mean, do like, it's sticky.

Jasmine Guillory 51:43

Yeah, it's sticky. That's the only real sticky part of the book for me too.

Traci Thomas 51:47

But it's like, but it's not a small part of the book. This is the marriage, isn't this the thing? This is the happily ever after in a lot of ways, at least our first one,

Jasmine Guillory 52:02

yes, and she forgives him really fast.

Traci Thomas 52:05

Yeah, like we've mentioned, he's quite good in bed, from what we can understand, yes,

Jasmine Guillory 52:11

yes, I do wish she had had a lot more choice in the marriage. It seemed like she was wavering, because yes, because, because there was no, because, like, for the whole time when he he would say, I want to marry you, and she would say no, and she'd say he would say it stronger, and she would keep saying no, and like, her answers were like, she never really seemed like she was

Traci Thomas 52:38

If she had said, I would love to marry you, but I can't Yeah. But she says no, yeah, no, no.

Jasmine Guillory 52:47

And even when we're in her point of view, in the church, she's not loving it,

Traci Thomas 52:53

no, I can't say no. Now Yeah, it's, it's troubling. And I think, to her credit, Beverly Jenkins just sort of zooms right the fuck through. She says, This is not great. Let's keep going. I think I can get you guys back. Like, that's sort of how I read it. She's like, this is the only way I can get from here to there. And I'm gonna do it in about a page and a half, and we're gonna be done. We're gonna have orgasms very quickly. After this, there's Okay. So then after this, we sort of dive back into this mystery abduction situation. More or less. There's another family that is abducted by Shu a bunch of the men kind of go to chase them down. It ends in the death of Branton Hubble, who was the sort of beloved of Catherine, the aunt, but also like a leader in the community. And it's very sad. Then, then we have, and there's more that happens here, but that's what you need to know for now. Then we have Veda, who is galen's Grandmother, an evil woman. Evil woman. Everybody hates her, yeah, the Maxi, the like head of household, the aunt, the cousins, the like girl, the ex girlfriend, like, everybody hates her. She dies. They have to go back. And basically, this scene just provides us more of like, this is the world from which she comes from. These people will hate Hester. He doesn't care. He loves her. This solidifies that he is really bout it bout it

Jasmine Guillory 54:26

and that he will do a very good job standing up for her.

Traci Thomas 54:30

Yes, yes, that like he is 10 toes down for Hester. They come back home. Her house has been ransacked. Her papers are gone.

Jasmine Guillory 54:39

This scene upset me so much.

Traci Thomas 54:41

It was very upsetting. It was very upsetting. I mean, okay, in romance, normally the wedding is sort of usually towards the end, right? Yeah, 120 pages after.

Jasmine Guillory 54:53

That's what's very interesting, like the structure of this book, because, well, because also the. You know, obviously, very early on, you knew that they were end game, but it feels like the, you know, off in the sort of like third act, dark place.

Traci Thomas 55:08

We don't have it.

Jasmine Guillory 55:09

Well, we do. We have a dark place, but it's not between. It's not, it's in the book, but it's not their relationship. Yes, they don't, they don't have that in their relationship. I mean, they have some ups and downs, but they don't, you know, the thing in the book is not really into that, right? Which I which I thought was just a really interesting structure of the book.

Traci Thomas 55:31

I think that's also why I like this book, because I usually hate third act breakups, because I'm usually just like I know you guys are gonna get back together. So like, why am I reading this? And, like, Where does this end? Let's go back to the romance. Um, but yeah, the darkness. It's like something that actually brings them closer. Yes, and we also get this moment, like, because he's on the Underground Railroad, she's on the railroad, and they're both sort of like, we're married, but we're not giving up this work. Yes, like, we will continue this work. She's got people still showing up at her house, even while she's not there, he's leaving to go, like, rescue babies and shit, and it's just like, we're a hot do gooder couple, yes, like,

Jasmine Guillory 56:08

and I appreciated that. It was interesting, because going back to when she was in the jail cell, right? Foster comes in with Galen and other people and like, foster spends a really long time lecturing her about how she could do this, but Galen doesn't really

Traci Thomas 56:27

Hes mad for a different reason. Yeah, he's like, you put yourself in danger, and that is harmful to me, a person who loves you.

Jasmine Guillory 56:35

But I really appreciated how neither of them wanted the other one to pull back on their work. You know, as dangerous as it was, like, he goes off to rescue babies and she's like, good luck with the baby, you know. Like, that's

Traci Thomas 56:48

I'll miss you. But also, like, baby trumps me

Jasmine Guillory 56:52

yeah, he and like, Foster was all you know. Like, I can't believe you would do in Galen isn't doing that. Like, he's like, yes, obviously you want to do this. I'm upset that you were putting yourself, but you know, but this is but like you. This is why I fell in love with you. More like exactly.

Traci Thomas 57:13

So then her house is ransacked, her papers are gone. The community comes to help her clean up, and B our nurse, sort of Aunt figure comes in and she's like, this is my fault. And Hester's like, it's nobody's fault. Like, it's the Ezra shoes bad. And she's like, okay, but more specifically, this is so it's my get your boyfriend or get your husband. Like, let's talk. She lays out. This is it. Did you see this coming at all?

Jasmine Guillory 57:37

No, not at all. I was totally surprised.

Traci Thomas 57:39

This is brilliant. I always try to figure things out. I did not see it at all. I said, for sure, it's not b i thought it could have been Branton Hubble. Maybe foster.

Jasmine Guillory 57:49

I thought it could have been Branson Hubble. And then I was like, oh, it's got to be Foster. It's got to be Foster.

Traci Thomas 57:53

It's got to be Foster. But I kept saying, Oh, it can't be Foster, because he was gone when it started.

Jasmine Guillory 57:59

He was gone, but Hester had told them things in letters

Traci Thomas 58:03

I didn't know. I didn't know it was B, it's B and her son, Lem, B's son Lem is working with Ezra shoe because they are half brothers, the master of the plantation on which B lived had a legitimate child who is the worst person in the world, Ezra Shu, and an illegitimate child with b Who is like the second worst person. So apparently, it's transferred through the dad. She was helping Lem identify families like, sort of giving them sacrificial families to capture, because she had two other kids, and she wanted to know their whereabouts, and he had told her that they were alive, and that if she helped him, he would give more information. Turns out, they were already fucking dead.

Jasmine Guillory 58:57

Which he knew the whole time

Traci Thomas 58:59

Which he knew the whole time and forced her, or sort of used her, to sell out her neighbors in the face of the kids. And this is the part that I was alluding to earlier, where she says, Raymond, who is galen's friend, says you traded the freedom of your neighbors for information on your children. Raymond asked angrily. Bea's voice was cold, yes, and until you have children of your own, do not be so quick to judge me. I may be a stupid old woman, but leaving my children behind choked my heart every day for 30 years. I needed to know what had happened to them. Lem told me they were alive, but wouldn't say where, until I aided him. And I'm like, That's right, and I think a lot of people would be shocked to find out that, like, black people like Lem were working with slave traders. But also, you know, in this economy, yeah, like, there is, there's only so much. And like, it was not look like, people weren't like, oh yeah, this is a legitimate. Line of work, but money's money, and when you live in a capitalistic society, like, people are gonna do that. And like, you know, he got his comeuppance, they killed him and branded him with the words traitor and threw him in the river. But like, he was, he's not a outlier in the sense that people weren't doing this

Jasmine Guillory 1:00:19

No and like, he, you know, he, he is not the one who says this later in the book, someone else who does but, like, basically, what is, what is being black ever done for me? I don't care about this community. I want the money, right?

Traci Thomas 1:00:31

and the person who says that, let's just go there now. So after this, a few pages later, like two Janine and foster come to Hester, and they're like, oh my god, Janine just saw Sheriff Lawson.

Jasmine Guillory 1:00:46

Oh, because I don't know if he said this, The Ezra shoe obviously, is the one who destroyed Hester's house. Oh yeah, saying that he was coming back for her

Traci Thomas 1:00:54

he's headed out for her. Like, since the beginning, I sort of skipped over that because he wasn't that important in the beginning. But he that important in the beginning, but he's important. No, threatened her many times. Yes, threatened her many times. And he's like, I'm gonna get you. And so Janine is like, they've got Galen and and at this point it's like, nobody's to leave Hester alone. The guy who's watching her, one of Raymond's brother immediately is like, I'll go back to the house.

Jasmine Guillory 1:01:23

I'll go back to the house and get other people.

Traci Thomas 1:01:26

No, you and you stay here with these people. Your job was your only job. You were just brought into this book because, like Jeanette likes you, and because we need you now to do a good job. You failed. She gets in the carriage. Hester gets in the carriage with Janine and foster. Moments later, Janine pulls out a gun. She's like, drive south, bitch. And Foster's like, what? And we come to find out that Janine had been in England. She got left or whatever, and she needed to get money, she was like a mistress, and she got screwed over. So on her way back on the boat, she was like, I needed to get back. I needed someone to pay for me. I had nothing, so I cozied up to you, and you could bring me to Michigan. And I had found out that my like, Boo Lem was there. He just reunited with his mom. So they weren't just like random lovers. They were like, go the distance. What do you guys call it? End Game? They were end game, okay, they're both gonna end up in the river. Is where they're gonna end up, but not so happily ever after for them. And she's like, Ezra Shu's about to be here. He's gonna pay me all this money. I can go west, have a new life. You know, being Black didn't ever do anything for me. I don't care. This was a curse. Like, Fuck all of you

Foster's like, wait, you were my perfect, beautiful wife. What do you mean? I fell in love with you.

And she's like, rushes towards her, and she shoots him. And she's like, I could kill you in one second. If you move towards me again, I will. And I was like, I've never liked Janine more than in this moment. I've got to be honest, I love an unlikable woman.

Jasmine Guillory 1:03:11

Foster needed to get shot. Yeah, thank you

Traci Thomas 1:03:14

It didn't matter who did it. And then Galen comes, rescues damsel. You know, you guys know this part, and then they sell him into slavery, which I was sort of like, sell Ezra shoe into slavery. And I was sort of like, wait, wait, wait, I thought we were very anti slavery.

Jasmine Guillory 1:03:32

I thought we I thought we hated slavery, though

Traci Thomas 1:03:35

like, as an institution, as an institution, like, couldn't we, like, you could have just killed him. Like, we don't hate killing people. We do hate chattel slavery. So I was a little bit like, I don't know, sure, I guess, but sort of goes against your whole life's work. But okay, and then Hester's like, by the way, I have a secret baby. There was a tiny secret baby trope. It's not like a full secret baby though, but it's like, secret baby light because he doesn't know, but she knows, but she's not really keeping it from him. She's more just waiting for the right time. Yes, she's like, we're having a baby. Everyone's so excited. And then he's like, Hey, when's your birthday? And she's like, Don't know. Don't care. And he's like, oh, sorry, I asked, let's celebrate it on Christmas so I can give you lots of presents. And I said, this is so weird, like, what, the book is falling off the rails. And then he gives her a bunch of presents. And then he's like, one more. Close your eyes, and we hear rustling feet, and then it's like, surprise, here's a cake and a woman, and the woman is Hester's mom. Yes.

Jasmine Guillory 1:04:44

Which like totally surprised me

Traci Thomas 1:04:46

It surprised me too. But here's my question, if you have your actual relationship happily ever after, 120 pages from the end of the book, do you need to have this late term happily ever after? Like is this necessary to keep the romance going.

Jasmine Guillory 1:05:02

No, I feel like this was just a like because, because I would, I was not expecting anything like this at the end of the book. Like, because, because I felt like the happy, happily ever after part was, like, he saved her and we got rid of Ezra shoe. Done. And done. Everybody and like, oh, okay, it's not, it's 1860 Civil War is about to start, like, reason to end soon. Good, good. And then her secret mom shows up. So that that, I think, was just a little bonus, a little bonus.

Traci Thomas 1:05:34

Okay, I wasn't sure, because I've never read a romance where the happily ever after happened so early. Yes. So I was like, do you have to have, like, a later one that's like, really, this is the one? Okay, okay. And then the mothers, like, I'll stay. Her name's Francis. And she, like, happened to be

Jasmine Guillory 1:05:52

and she had been enslaved, and he, like, got her the money to buy herself out of slavery

Traci Thomas 1:05:57

And he didn't go looking for her. He just, like randomly found her when he was on another trip down south, doing doing the work, I think when he went to the funeral, yeah, John Brown's funeral. That's right, and that's the end of our book. Now, I've written a list of tropes. Tell me if I got them, we've got we talked about the Virgin wraith thing, sick bed, is that a trope? Like, you know,

Jasmine Guillory 1:06:23

yes, that's definitely a trope. I think people call it something slightly different, but,

Traci Thomas 1:06:27

you know, I just make shit up. I don't know.

Jasmine Guillory 1:06:29

Sick bed like tending to someone, yes, tending

Traci Thomas 1:06:32

secret baby, light, Junior,

Jasmine Guillory 1:06:36

although I would feel like if when people talk about secret baby, this is not it

Traci Thomas 1:06:40

This is not it. This is okay. This is just like surprise, baby. Okay. I have heard this described as enemies to lovers. I did not feel that it was that.

Jasmine Guillory 1:06:52

No, I mean, they dislike each other in the beginning, but it's really only for the first, like two chapters. Yeah, so I wouldn't describe this book that way

Traci Thomas 1:07:03

Okay, is there such thing as a surprise wedding trope? Because I feel like we did have a surprise wedding.

Jasmine Guillory 1:07:08

Yeah, there are definitely surprise weddings.

Traci Thomas 1:07:10

Yeah. Okay. Slow Burn. Is that considered a trope, or is that just a style

Jasmine Guillory 1:07:15

slow burn is definitely a trope. I'm not sure if I would qualify this as a slow burn, though.

Traci Thomas 1:07:21

I mean, even though it takes a like, it takes 100 pages for a kiss?

Jasmine Guillory 1:07:23

yeah, no, that's true. That's true. It did take 100 pages for the kiss, though, I feel like I have different standards for slow burn in historical you know, but you're right. It did take 100 pages for the kiss, and it wasn't until like, 250 that they had sex.

Traci Thomas 1:07:38

So yeah, and then is secret rich person, a trope like, surprise, I'm Rich

Jasmine Guillory 1:07:44

um, yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:07:48

But also, like, rich man is a trope,

Jasmine Guillory 1:07:51

rich Yeah. I mean, like, the Duke the millionaire, like, you know,

Traci Thomas 1:07:56

50 Shades of Gray,

Jasmine Guillory 1:07:57

yes, exactly like,

Traci Thomas 1:07:58

deeply rich man, yeah. I know that that's problematic, but this is, this is romance.

Jasmine Guillory 1:08:03

That scene after they got married, where he opened the door to this room, he had been buying her presents ever since he first met her, and it's just like, full to the brim with presents. I was like, I love this. I love this.

Traci Thomas 1:08:19

I thinkthat's also why I like this book. These are all the tropes that I love, which is, like, hot, problematic man who's rich and wants to go down on her. Like, yeah, babe, Sign me up. Where can I get one of those? You know? Like, that's what I'm talking about. But the one thing I had written down was no third act breakup. That was, like, the one trope that I was like, sort of waiting for that we didn't get. Did I miss other tropes? I'm sure I did

Jasmine Guillory 1:08:45

not that I can immediately think of. I should have, I should have made a list.

Traci Thomas 1:08:49

Okay, well, the thing that you brought up at the beginning that was like, there's these modern day parallels. One of the things that really struck me about the modern day parallels, obviously, like Ezra shoe and ICE agents and all of that, and even a little bit the like, sort of Trad wife, like innocent woman thing. But the thing that really struck me was the need for fun in serious times, and like the communal care elements, like when her house is broken into

Jasmine Guillory 1:09:16

there's a there's a great quote about the need for fun in in times like this.

Traci Thomas 1:09:23

And the part when she's in her he's introducing her around to all the, like, important figures at his house. And she's like, why are they all here? And he's like, Well, you know, to take care of you and she and she's like, Oh, do they owe you that much? And he says, Well, we all owe each other that much. And I was like, that feels like, what the conversations we're having right now? Yeah, and like, in a less sort of direct comparison way to like the ice stuff, certainly like the work and the ethos of the Underground Railroad, I think we often think of as sort of like an adventure film, and that this was reminding me that it's much more about, like care work and community work, and I think she really beautifully exemplified the thinking behind it

Jasmine Guillory 1:10:05

Absolutely, and just the scenes of like, the community, there's an emergency in the community, and they all come together and solve it. Like, yeah, those are some of the most beautiful parts of the book. For me, I really loved the like, when the women went into the to the jail, and they're like, All right, we're gonna fix this. And they like, surround the woman in jail, and Hester stands in for her. Like, yeah, those kind of things where they come together and solve a problem, and they like, don't have to, I mean, even though there was a secret Viper in the mix, but like, they don't, they know that the community is there for them. And I loved that.

Traci Thomas 1:10:41

Okay, the last thing we always talk well, has there ever been a movie of this? I would watch this movie every day for the rest of my life.

Jasmine Guillory 1:10:49

No. I feel like Beverly Jenkins books, so many of them would be amazing. Movies like this is the thing. Like, talk about bridgerton, right? Like, like her books would do so well, because so much, I mean, so much of the dialog is so kind of perfect for a movie dialog and, right? And it's like the discussion about the clothes and, like the meals.

Traci Thomas 1:11:12

I mean Rege Jean, whatever his name, he could be Galen. He could be Galen. I mean, he's not quite light enough, but, yeah, we'll put them in white face. It's fine, but, like, it's right there. Everybody, Shonda, it's right there.

Jasmine Guillory 1:11:25

This is, like, the romance novel version of sinners, right? Like we need to get, we need to get some of the, like, you know, the big, fancy black men directors, to start doing some romance novel

Traci Thomas 1:11:38

I'm right there with you, because I would eat this shit up. This is This so good? The last thing we always talk about is the title and the cover. We talked about the title a little bit. I have this absolutely dreadful cover. This, like new cover. It's just, it's like words and like diamonds and pearls. But I saw the clinch cover. It's stunning, beautiful. It's beautiful people who don't know I learned about this. The clinch cover is the cover that has like the people in the embrace. They're clinching one another. So that's what it means. It's old school. They do it now, but it's like drawings. But in the olden days, it was like pictures, or drawings of pictures. It's like what you think of when you think of a romance novel. And the clinch cover on this is so hot though he is also too light in that cover. I mean, too dark in that cover, dark in that cover, but, but,

Jasmine Guillory 1:12:27

but also, I think that's because, right, it's hard to show a light skinned black man without

Traci Thomas 1:12:33

making it look like interracial without, yes, right? Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. But I just, I was like, Why do I have this cover that looks like anything when I could have a cut like and there's other iterations of the cover, but those ones with the people are really smoke hot,

Jasmine Guillory 1:12:50

and I do, and I and I love the title. I feel like it's a great title, title for the book.

Traci Thomas 1:12:56

Yeah. And I had no idea. I had no idea what it was going to be. There's just so she pulls off so many delightful surprises throughout the book, and I really appreciated that, like I was like, what's gonna happen? I really didn't know. I didn't know what to expect. And I just felt like she really

Jasmine Guillory 1:13:12

The one thing. Because I was sort of like dreading the end of the book, because I could tell it was leading up to Hester being captured, right? Yeah, but luckily, because, also, I don't, like, you know that that kind of stuff stresses me out. And I was like, like, she was only captured for a few pages. It was fine

Traci Thomas 1:13:33

A few pages, and she was, like, amongst friends, mostly, like, even though we hate Janine, it was like, it's Janine. Like, I'm not worried, right even. I mean, she even says I just have to stay alive long enough for Galen to come. And I was like, That's right, yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah. And we know you're going to be safe you, so it'll be fine. I went in sort of dreading the book, because, as you know, I'm not really a romance person, and I walked out being like, this is the best thing I've ever read. Like, I loved it. I love it so much. Okay, well, everybody listening at home, stay tuned to the end of the episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. And they can pre order your book now.

Jasmine Guillory 1:14:13

They can pre order my book now anywhere where you pre order books. Um, I always do signed pre orders from East Bay booksellers, which is my local Oakland bookstore. But you can put your books wherever

Traci Thomas 1:14:24

and tell them the title of the book one more time, in case they forgot

Jasmine Guillory 1:14:27

It's called it's only dancing

Traci Thomas 1:14:29

Thank you so much, Jasmine and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks. All right. Y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Jasmine Guillory for being our guest. Our book club pick for March is Paradise by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 25 this will be our ninth Toni Morrison novel discussed right here on. This podcast, and you've got to tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be for this conversation. If you love the stacks and you want more of it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks. Pack and check out my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com, please make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, go ahead and leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and YouTube, and you can always check out our website at the stacks podcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from tagira. Just the stacks is created and produced by me. Traci Thomas

Traci Thomas
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Ep. 412 The Racial Caste System of America with Dorothy Roberts