Ep. 410 Romance Is Helpful When Times Are Scary with Jasmine Guillory

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re joined by New York Times bestselling romance novelist Jasmine Guillory. We chat about her journey from high-powered attorney to successful contemporary romance writer, her favorite and least favorite tropes, and how people’s desire to escape through romance increases amid political unrest.

The Stacks Book Club pick for February is Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. We’ll be discussing the book with Jasmine Guillory on February 25th.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Jasmine Guillory 0:00

So when I first started writing, I wasn't writing romance. I went through kind of a health crisis, and during that time, I was reading a lot of romance novels, and I realized, like, romance is so helpful when when times are scary. You go in knowing it's going to be a happy ending, and that was very soothing to me. And so I was reading a whole bunch of romance, and at first I was reading a lot of historical romance, and I loved reading it. I was a history major, so I love historical romance, but I, you know, thought like, this is so much fun to read, but I don't think I could write one of these. And then I read a few contemporary romances, and I was like, oh, this is it.

Traci Thomas 0:46

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by Jasmine Guillory. She is the New York Times bestselling author of nine novels including the wedding date, the proposal and her latest, flirting Lessons. Today we chat about the art of the romance novel, how she went from being a high powered attorney into writing romance novels and some of the books that have excited her and brought her comfort over the years. Our book club pick for February is Indigo, by Beverly Jenkins, Jasmine Guillory will be back on Wednesday, February 25 to discuss the book. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks is linked in the show notes. If you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content, if you want a readerly community, please consider supporting my work and getting a whole bunch of perks for yourself by joining the stacks pack at patreon.com/the stacks and subscribing to my newsletter, unstacked, at Traci thomas.substack.com I could not make this show every single week without the support of those two amazing communities. So if you like what you hear, if you want bonus episodes, an active discord channel, hot takes and a lot more, go to patreon.com/the stacks and Traci thomas.substack.com to check it all out. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Jasmine Guillory.

All right, everybody, it is February, which is a month known for many things. One of them is Black History Month. Another is Valentine's Day. And while I normally never celebrate these holidays on the podcast, this year, we're doing it. I am joined today by one of the most beloved, best selling, fantastic romance writers out her name is Jasmine Guillory. Jasmine, welcome to the stacks.

Jasmine Guillory 2:41

Thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:45

I'm so happy to have you. So we share a few biographical details that I'm going to tell folks about. First and foremost, we are both from Oakland, California. We are and we went to the same high school.

Jasmine Guillory 2:57

We did we did, years apart, but still.

Traci Thomas 3:01

Go Dragons. And I know your sister because she was my grade. So those are our biographical details. Everything else, we're a little further apart, but we're gonna get there. Yeah. Okay, where I want to start, where I always like to start with folks is like, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself. Obviously, you're from Oakland. You went to O'Dowd, but what's your story with books? Were you a reader? How were you how was What were you raised in relationship to books? Just sort of a little backstory.

Jasmine Guillory 3:32

Yeah, I was a huge reader. I have been a huge reader my whole life. My parents were both in graduate school when I was little, and so I spent and I was an only child for a while, so I spent a lot of time accompanying them to school, and was like the little kid in the library in the corner with books I learned to read when I was, like three years old, which apparently infuriated some members of my family, because they would read to me, and which I would want them To read to me, and then I would correct them and like, No, you got that wrong. That's not what The Book says. And so I have, like, I came to writing relatively late in life, but I have been a huge reader my whole life, and have always, always loved books. My family would always tease me because I would always have books at any like I was an only child, but I had a lot of cousins, and so my big cousins would always be like, oh, there's Jasmine with her book. But yes, and my parents both love to read too. I was always like my mom and I I realized later that my mom was like, checking up on the books that I was reading, but did not know that when I was a kid, we would just like read the same books. And I thought it was so fun. We had our own little book club, and so we were always reading books, and she was reading and so, yeah, I've always loved books my whole life.

Traci Thomas 4:55

That is so cute. Do you remember what books your parents were reading when you were a kid?

Jasmine Guillory 5:03

I mean, except for, so, this is the, this is the other thing. Everyone in my family, except for me, is a psychologist, okay, and so, except for, like, my dad was doing this dissertation when I was little. So I do remember a bunch of those books around, but I don't remember any. Oh, actually, I do. I remember my mom reading some Toni Morrison, like, I remember that, but because I just remember the titles and being like, Huh, that's weird, but, and she also, she read a lot of cookbooks and like cooking magazines, and so that's also how I, like, loved cooking as a little kid. I would cook with her and stuff. But mostly I just remember, like, all of the books that I had and was reading, and the books she got me

Traci Thomas 5:45

okay, okay, I love that she was reading what you were reading to check up on you, and you thought it was a book club.

Jasmine Guillory 5:50

Oh, yeah. I was like, my mom likes the same books as me. That's great.

Traci Thomas 5:54

I have small kids, and they're, like, just learning how to read. They they're not, they were not three year old readers. They're they're six years old and they're just getting there, which is fine, but people always ask me, like, Oh, are you okay with your kids, like, reading this and that? And I'm realizing that I don't know what's in any of these books, so I have no clue. I guess I'm gonna have to start reading the books.

Jasmine Guillory 6:15

Well, see my thing about that, and granted, I don't have children, so maybe if I did, I would have a different perspective. But like, my thing about that is I read a lot of books way too old for me at a young age, and I just didn't understand what they were talking about. So it just all went over my head, you know, like I didn't I didn't even ask questions, because I just didn't understand what that was. And so I just skimmed that part and moved on to the parts that I did, and then years later, I reread them, and I was like, oh, that's what that was. And so, so I am never that. Like, I don't really think it's a big deal for kids to read stuff that they're too young for because they just won't get it. Yeah, or that. Like, you know, if I read a scary book, I put it down and be like, This is too scary. I don't want to read it anymore, you know. So I think to a certain extent, you just got to trust kids and also be able to answer questions.

Traci Thomas 7:09

That's my instinct. Is to be like, let them read it. The only reason I was thinking like, oh, you might want to know what your kids are reading is because it might be bringing stuff up for them that they don't understand. So you might want to know like, Oh, this is about this or that. But I also have my own reading life, and I'm not really going to sacrifice my reading time, like reading about Jonestown or whatever, so that I can read about like a little girl going through puberty. Sorry, happy for her. Hope it turns out great. Yeah, you know, whatever you need, but you know I have to balance my own personal reading life, which is important to me. Okay, you go to Bishop O Dowd high school, you then you go to college. You major in history

Jasmine Guillory 7:50

History, yes, for a long time, actually, I was a history and political science double major, and then my second semester, my senior year, I dropped the double major because I had to take two more political science classes, and they were like, for the major, they both had to be classes that I thought were deeply boring. And I was like, I don't want to waste my last semester of college on boring classes.

Traci Thomas 8:12

Do you remember what the classes were for the major you had to take?

Jasmine Guillory 8:16

Like, there were, like, four different categories you had to take, and one was political theory, and one was international relations. And I did political theory seemed deeply boring to me, and the International Relations topics weren't that interesting. And I was like, I don't know.

Traci Thomas 8:33

Okay, so you just did history, yeah, and then you went to law school.

Jasmine Guillory 8:38

I did. In between that I worked on Capitol Hill, which was very entertaining, but yes. And then I went to law school, which I had always wanted to be a lawyer. I even wanted to be a lawyer my whole life.

Traci Thomas 8:48

So and then you were a lawyer, and then I was a part of your life. And then now this is where you got to help me. You wrote the wedding date,

Jasmine Guillory 8:58

yes, well, so there was in between. So I did not start writing until sometime in my 30s. I worked at a law firm for a while, and then I worked at Legal Aid. And in both of those jobs, I was, like, working long hours, you know, I didn't have a lot of like, free time, right? And then I started a job where I would, like, get home at around six o'clock every night. And I was like, what else do I do? Like, what else is there in my life, other than work? And so I was thinking of like hobbies to start, or like things to learn. And I had just, I'd been out of school just long enough that I kind of realized, I mean, this makes me sound like a nerd, because I am, but like I missed school, like I missed that process of, like learning new things, right? And I was like, Well, I've always loved to read. Maybe I would like writing, and that seemed kind of weird and scary to me. Um. But I had some friends who were writers, and I had some very tentative conversations with them about it, which years later they were like, oh, that's what we're talking about. Okay, yeah. But they were very supportive and, like, encouraging. And so I was like, well, let's, let's just see. And so I kind of, I started writing the first book I wrote was not the wedding date. I wrote, like, like, one whole book, and then one half of a book that I could never quite figure out where it was going. And then a few years into writing, I started writing the wedding date.

Traci Thomas 10:30

Were you a reader of romance novels before you thought that's what you would write like?

Jasmine Guillory 10:38

Yes so when I first started writing, I wasn't writing romance. The first, like, two-ish books that I wrote were young adult, because I I had been reading some young adult, but also, like, there wasn't I read a book that I was like, oh, you know, set in the Bay Area. And I was like, I would have loved this book when I was that age, but, but it was about white people. And like, I wish there were more books, you know, when I was growing up, like, there weren't books about teenage black girls. And so I was thinking, like, Oh, I'd love to, like, write a book set in the Bay Area about a teenage black girl. And then, kind of, in between that time I had been writing on and off, I went through kind of a health crisis. And during that time, I was reading a lot of romance novels, and I realized, like, romance is so helpful when, when times are scary, when times are when, like things are overwhelming, partly because even though stressful things can happen in a romance. You go in knowing it's going to be a happy ending, and that was very soothing to me. And so I was reading a whole bunch of romance, and at first I was reading a lot of historical romance, and I loved reading it. I was a history major, so I love historical romance, but I, you know, thought like, this is so much fun to read, but I don't think I could write one of these, partly just because I didn't think my voice would translate to historical you know, there were just a bunch of things that just didn't feel like it worked for me. And then I read a few contemporary romances, and I was like, oh. And then I had the idea for the wedding date, and so I just kind of dove right in and, well, no, I had the idea, and I kind of thought it through for a while, but I didn't really commit to writing it, and then I kind of got a push from a friend, and then dove right into writing.

Traci Thomas 12:31

Were you surprised by how much people loved the wedding date?

Jasmine Guillory 12:39

I didn't really expect that at all partly, I think, for a bunch of reasons. I mean, I think because, especially right when I was starting traditional publishing, was not really embracing romances by and about people of color and so and, you know, it took me a while to get an agent. It took me a while to get a publishing deal. So I was just sort of like, excited that I got a deal, and excited that it was being published. And then, you know, I was very fortunate that my publisher kind of went all in, in pushing it to different places, and, you know, sending it out and being behind me. But it has really been kind of a little book that could

Traci Thomas 13:19

Yeah because it came out in 2018 because that's when I started this podcast. And I remember friend of the show, Renee, who does book girl magic. I remember she read it for her book club, and it was everywhere. And this was before I even understood what this show was. I didn't, I didn't read romance, and I was like, I don't read romance. I'm not gonna read romance on the show. And I even read the book because I was so pressured. And I was like, I gotta at least, like, see what this thing was. And I think at the time again, I wasn't as plugged into the world of publishing. So like, I didn't know any of your story. I didn't even know you were from Oakland. Like, I didn't know anything really, and I didn't know it was your debut. And now looking back, I'm just like, Wait, how did Jasmine like? Because you just, like, struck lightning in a bottle. Not that the book is not good, but like, it was, like this moment that just captured people in a way that, when I look back on it, knowing what I know now feels like, and I'm sure knowing what you know now feels like, really surprising for a black woman author, for a romance novel, even for the political moment, like I don't know, so I don't know if you can speak to any of that at all.

Jasmine Guillory 14:38

Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, right? As you said, it was my debut. I didn't really know anything

Traci Thomas 14:44

It was like both of our debut eras

Jasmine Guillory 14:46

Yeah like I did, but I didn't like you don't publishing is just, I describe it to other, to like now debut authors is like learning a whole new language. You know, I remember being in a meeting like the fall before it came out, with like, my publishing team, when they were talking about things, and I did not understand a single thing that was going on, and was just like writing things down, and then afterwards, saying to my agent, like, that sounded good, you know, because, because you don't really know mean, because they're speaking like English, but it is not the English that I understand. It's so jargony, right? It's all about jargon. And it's all like, it's, you know, talking about things that I don't I didn't know what the level of like was this. This sounds good from the way they talk, but knows if that is actually good. I mean, I think it also helped to that I was little older, right? And so I was used to, like public speaking, or like talking to people or doing interviews. Like I wasn't scared about any of that, and that helped, because they kind of weren't scared to, like, connect me. People put me out there. And I was like, Sure, fine, but yeah, I mean, also it just sort of like a lot of little things happened, and then they're just kind of snowballed in a really lovely way.

Traci Thomas 16:03

Yeah, you mentioned before that romance is really good for people when they're going through a hard time. Have you noticed a change in your relationship and your readership over the last eight years, like since the book has come out? Given the political the changing political climate, and sort of the ways that things have, especially recently, felt more escalated. Have you felt that like on the ground, dealing with readers who often are reading romance for enjoyment and escape?

Jasmine Guillory 16:36

Yeah, I mean the number of people that I've met in the past, like few years, who have said to me, I started reading your book during the pandemic, and then I read them all. Like, I think a lot of people came in during the pandemic, you know, I've people have said that exact phrase to me so many times, like, I started reading your books during the pandemic, and it really got me through the hard times. And I was like, yeah, like, there are books that got me through hard times the pandemic, you know. And so, like, I feel grateful, but also so honored that I could help other people through that time. Yes, it was, you know, it was terrible. And also this is a very hard time. And so I think, like, I just finished watching heated rivalry last night. It's a delightful show. I loved it. And I also think that part of the reason that people are so attached to it, it has come out at exactly the right moment that people need that, like uplift in a really hard time.

Traci Thomas 17:34

I think that's right. I think that it's like this thing that is a fun distraction, and like something you can indulge in when it feels like there's so little that is worthy of indulging in right now and so little time to do it. What were the books you remember being comforting to during the pandemic?

Jasmine Guillory 17:53

So I read a lot of mystery novels. I started reading well, so also in early probably, like the end of March 2020, two of my closest friends from college and I started doing weekly FaceTime calls because none of us live close to each other, and which we'd never done before, and now we still do, though they're no longer they're no longer weekly, because we leave our houses. Sometimes it's a little harder schedule. But we started like, not quite a little book club, but we started, like all talking about books all the time, because we all like to read. And one person told us about this series of mystery novels set in England by Elly Griffiths. They're about this anthropologist who is a professor who, like, solves a bunch of murders. And we read that whole series during the pandemic. And those books, I think, well, there's 13 of them, oh my gosh, 13 or 14, but they the. The most recent one just came out last year, so they didn't all but there were a bunch that had already been published, and then a few came out during the pandemic. And we were like, yes, let's talk about all of these. And so those books, like, really got me through.

Traci Thomas 19:01

I love that. Okay, I have this sort of burning question. I don't this might be a small sample size, but you friend of the show, Tia Williams, past guests, and I'll say friend, but not really. Stacey Abrams, high powered black women, lawyers, politicians, some, some, both. I mean, Tia was like running journalism, beauty journalism, right? All three of you write romance novels. What do you think it is that? And I don't think it's just you three. I think there's probably more. You're just the three that I know. But what do you think is going on here?

Jasmine Guillory 19:45

You know, I think it's a few things. I think part of it is like wanting to, wanting to tap into the joy that I think people don't usually think of black women as getting right. Like. So often when I look at media that is for and about black women, I don't want to say by black women, but like aimed towards black women and about black women, it is about, like, the struggle, you know? And, yeah, there's struggle. I'm not denying the struggle, but also, there is so much more in our lives. There is, you know, love and family and joy. And I think wanting to be able to show we are not a monolith, that that's not the struggle is not all we can do, and is not all we're about, is something that I think, especially when people who see all of the hard things really want to show like, but look at look at the rest of us, you know. And actually, that's kind of the thing that inspires me, both in writing, but also in political stuff, because when I when there's going through hard times, like, that's what I want to protect, right? I want people to be able to have that joy. I want people to be able to, like, read fun stories with their kids, or, like, have a great wedding, or have those stories of falling in love and and so those are the things that I think of during hard times

Traci Thomas 21:17

that makes a lot of sense. Do you have favorite, a favorite trope?

Jasmine Guillory 21:21

I love fake dating. I think this is why my first book was about fake dating, and I have returned to that a little bit other times. I also love but I've never written marriage of convenience. I just find it delightful.

Traci Thomas 21:37

I don't think I've ever read a marriage of convenience book.

Jasmine Guillory 21:41

historical does it easier? Contemporary, it often has to be like about healthcare, which is depressing, or immigration, which is tricky. So there are ways that I've seen it work in contemporary, but it's a lot harder.

Traci Thomas 21:57

Okay, on the flip side, as a reader or a writer, are there any tropes that are just totally just no thanks from you.

Jasmine Guillory 22:05

So this is a trope that has its lovers, but I do not like secret baby books. I don't know how familiar you are. You know you're new to romance

Traci Thomas 22:18

I feel like I've heard about the secret baby

Jasmine Guillory 22:20

For me, the reason I don't like it is mostly because, either way, no matter what happens, one of the main characters seems like a real asshole, right?

Traci Thomas 22:34

Because the truth is that there's a baby that is coming that is not known about by a spouse or a partner, right?

Jasmine Guillory 22:45

And usually either, like, you know, the they're hiding, like they're either hiding the baby because the guy was an asshole, or the woman who was hiding the baby is being an asshole to hide it, right, right? I mean, because, you know, in there, like from a great writer, this can be fixed. Alexa Martin wrote a book that I wouldn't quite call secret baby, but it is like a secret child, okay, years later, okay. And in that, the bad guy is someone else. So it all sort of works ends up working out and it. And that book I read like I love all of her books, and that book really works, but it is really hard to not make that very tricky.

Traci Thomas 23:32

Are you the kind of person that would feel excited about attempting to write your least favorite trope like trying to make it work, or are you a person that's just like secret babies? No, thanks.

Jasmine Guillory 23:46

Okay, so I've actually tried not with secret babies, but one of my other least favorite tropes is basically the bet where, like, someone bets someone else that they can get this person to go out with them or sleep with them, or whatever.

Traci Thomas 23:59

That's very she's all that.

Jasmine Guillory 24:01

And usually like, it just makes the person who makes the bet an asshole, and it's hard for me to ever get on their side. And also, I will say the person who makes the bet is usually the guy I have a I have a really low tolerance for assholes in fiction which I think makes me not I think a lot of romance readers have a high tolerance for romance and for assholes in fiction, and so there are a lot of like assholes with the Heart of Gold character. I usually never forgive them

Traci Thomas 24:34

Okay, and I'm the third kind of person that is like, I only want to read about fucking assholes in fiction. That's all I want. I want you to be the biggest jerk possible. I want a jerk competition.

Jasmine Guillory 24:46

So I don't mind an asshole in a non romance, right?

Traci Thomas 24:52

But to like come around because a person

Jasmine Guillory 24:55

I have to moderate that. I don't really mind an asshole woman. I mind an asshole man. I'm like, Yeah, you got it. You get, like, one chance with me, and then I'm done with you. So I tried. When I was writing flirting lessons, which is my most recent book, I started off with, like, maybe I can do a bet for this one, but, like, make it so that I don't hate it, right? And so I kind of started off with thinking, like, maybe this will be, you know, she makes a bet that she can get the other woman to go out with her and stuff. And then I tried to write it. And I was like, every way do this, she looks like an asshole. And so I had to, like, change things around. But I think there are ways to do all of those things. It just didn't work with either of those two characters, yeah, right, that I was working with. I do think that it is a fun challenge as a writer to think, like, how can I write this in a way that I like? Because actually, like trying to think through that for that book, I didn't end up writing it that way, but it did help me figure out the book, you know,

Traci Thomas 26:09

Right and like, flush out the characters. Like dimensions, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. I I like, I like enemies to lovers, and I like fake dating, yeah, I like fake dating. Fake dating is so fun. I don't know. I don't know why I like it so much, because I'm just like, this is I feel like fake dating is the trope that is the least common in real life. Who's out here fake dating. But I love it every time I come across it.

Jasmine Guillory 26:36

I wrote a piece for The New York Times last year with like, a list of my favorite fake dating books, and in it I said that basically, like, Does this ever happen in real life? I don't think so. It doesn't matter. I don't care. I love it.

Traci Thomas 26:48

Yeah, I love it. I don't know there's something about it that's just so charming. Yeah, Okay, before we kind of move on to your taste in books, you and I are gonna read Indigo by Beverly Jenkins for book club this month, people, if you're listening now, pick up the book. You have until the end of February to read it. Jasmine will be back the last Wednesday of the month to discuss the book. I gave you a list of books we were talking about different options. You picked this. I'm super excited about it, but what about this book made you want to read it for book club?

Jasmine Guillory 27:19

So Beverly Jenkins has a really big catalog, and I've only read a handful of her books, and I've loved them all, but this is the book that always comes up for people when they're like, What should What's the book that someone should read to introduce you know, you to Beverly Jenkins, and people always say, indigo, and I haven't read it yet. And so I was like, let's do it.

Traci Thomas 27:42

Yeah, okay, this is the one that I feel like. Likewise, people always suggest this. And also, I've never read any Beverly Jenkins, because my journey to romance is through this podcast. I've read a lot more contemporary, like newer stuff, and just like maybe people who are gonna be on the romance rushmore. But like, are still like, in the beginnings of their careers. Because in romance, it's like you're, you're beginning until you've written 35 books. Seriously, right? Like, I'm just like, Danielle Steele has got 7000 books. So like, whereas, like, if you write literary fiction, you have three books. It's like mid career and romance, it's like, you don't hit mid career till you've written, like, 15. How many of you written eight?

Jasmine Guillory 28:26

My next book will be number 10.

Traci Thomas 28:34

Oh, my, so, so, yeah, so my, so you're hitting, you're getting into the like, mid career barely, with almost 10. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.

We are back. I did not prepare you for this, but we do something called Ask the stacks, where someone writes in an email asking for a book recommendation. I found this one. It's a little older email, but I think you're the perfect person for it. So I pulled it out of the the archive. It's from M and they say I'm a performing artist, producer, educator who was in a rehearsal for multiple plays and musicals most of the year. And it makes my brain busy. What are some light reads, fiction or nonfiction that I can read when I get home at night to help me wind down after rehearsals. I like fantasy, ya health and wellness nonfiction, some historical fiction and some romance. Recent faves include Check and mate by Allie Hazelwood, the perfectionist guide to losing control and fair Rosaline. Perennial faves include anything by Madeline lengle. I don't know longle lengle

Jasmine Guillory 29:47

That really is a great question for me, because she is also perennial Fave of mine. Okay, how do I say it? Lengle? I say it Lingle, but I don't know if that's correct.

Traci Thomas 29:56

I was gonna get long go. I don't know. Yeah. Um, so I can go first, because I was prepared. If you want to take a second to think and come up with titles, you can do one to three. I'm gonna do three. So my first one is I'm gonna do romance first, because, you know, we're doing romance this month. Big fan by Alexandra Romanoff. It is the first book out of 831 stories, which is a newer indie romance press. They they print like little, teeny, tiny, cutie patootie novellas. And this one is about a woman who works in politics who kind of has a scandal in her marriage, gets a divorce, or breaks up with her husband and ends up dating the lead singer of a boy band that she loved as a kid. And so it's kind of, you know, it's a celebrity Normie book. Celebrity, I think they call it celebrity normal person. Yes, it sounds insane. So I like to call it a celeb Normie. I like that better. I do, yeah, celebrity normal person. It's the person like, it's just too it's chunky. Anyways, it's a really cute book. I liked it a ton, which is saying a lot, because I do you know, I'm new to the genre. My next one is sort of a YA romance, historical adaptation told anew. It's one of my faves, Anna K by Jenny Lee, which is the YA retelling of Anna Karenina, set in New York City, rich kid, Gossip Girl circles. It's a total blast. This was one of my pandemic comfort reads. I picked it up right when lockdown started, and I devoured it. It's so much fun. And then my last one is a nonfiction pick that is not exactly what you asked for, but I think you might like it. It's called Fight of the Century by islet, and it's edited by islet Waldman and Michael Chabon, and it's about the 100 Years of ACLU backed Supreme Court decisions. And it's an it's an anthology, so it has different essays from different writers. Yeah, Jesse wrote one. You get one from Jesmyn Ward. You get one from Hector Tobar. They're really cool, and they range things like the Miranda rights or Brown versus Board. But because they're each essays, it's something that would be easy to digest, like one a night after rehearsal, to kind of wind down, and they're interesting and they're fun, and they're so well written, because it's like all these geniuses who care about the world talking about these decisions. So those are my three picks. Jasmine, you can do one to three.

Jasmine Guillory 32:28

All right. I recommend Amy Spalding romance novels the most. Her, the one that's about to come out, actually, I think is perfect for this person. It's the fourth in her out in Hollywood series, and the one that's about to come out is called in her spotlight, and it is about a director and the star of her play. But the star is like a big, hot movie star, but they, like, had a relationship years before, and so, so I think it'll be perfect for this person. I recommend the other three books in the series as well, but in her spotlight comes out in a in a few weeks in the middle of February, so she can start with the other books in the series if she wants to. But that is also a perfect like one for her. The next one that I want to recommend is a fantasy romance, little hybrid, and it's called a very secret society of irregular witches. It is delightful. It is charming. There's some like, real topics that they get into about community and, like, found family and stuff. But I just loved everything about this book, so much so that, like, when I got an email asking me to blurb the second book, I replied in all caps, like, send this to me immediately, and I know Yes. Like, yes, I wanted this book. Thank God, someone thought of me, and I loved the second one too. So I like, I recommend them both, but start with which is guide to magical in keeping and, or, sorry, the very secret society of irregular witches. A witch's guide to magical innkeeping is the second one. And then my nonfiction pick is going a little off track of both of these, but it is a nonfiction book that I recommend to so many people, because it just pulled me in right away, and it just tells a really good story. It's called boom town. It is about Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City, and it's like Oklahoma City and Oklahoma City basketball team, neither of which are topics that I particularly cared about before reading this book. And it just pulls you right in, like I was so absorbed by the book. You don't have to know anything about either thing to really get into the book. And I feel like it's kind of the perfect, you know, non fiction story to, like, make you forget about anything else going on, because I like, I read it a few years ago, and I'm still totally talking about it.

Traci Thomas 34:56

I love that. That's such a good pick. Okay, um. So please let us know if you read any of these books. If you like any of these books. For folks at home, I need more ask the stacks questions for 2026 so please email ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com with what you're looking for, a few books you love and or hate, and then we will try to match you up with some books. All right, Jasmine, you are officially in the stacks Hot Seat. Two books you love, one book you hate.

Jasmine Guillory 35:27

All right, let's start with one I love that comes out this spring. I don't know if that's cheating, but it is a book that I read in October. It comes out in March, and I can't stop thinking about it. It's called Whidbey by tikira Madden. It is about a number of women who have all who all in different ways, have been touched by this one man who is was a town monster, and so you never hear from him. Sorry. My dog wants to be part of this recommendation, and I like, I've read it in I think two days, I read it on vacation, and I have just not been able to stop thinking about it since, partly, I mean, it's just so well written. Like, you just really get into the heads of these women, and the story is told so well. Like, I can't wait for more people to read this book so I can talk to them about it, and I there's so many things that have come up since then, like small things or big things about because it's really about, like, sort of the way we treat women in the world, the way we treat victims, what the court system does to people, and it is just wonderful. And I can't stop thinking about it.

Traci Thomas 36:37

Oh, my God, it's high on my list. I'm super excited to read it, so I'm glad to know that you love it. Another love or do you want to do your hate? Do you want to sandwich the hate into loves? Do you want to just do two loves and then rip the band aid off?

Jasmine Guillory 36:51

I'll go with the hate. I'll go with my hate, which many people are shocked and horrified by this, but I've always hated the Great Gatsby. Oh, I Yes, yes, blah, blah, blah, the green light, whatever. Nothing about it does anything for me. I read that book with just blank face, blank eyes, and I've read it so many times,

Traci Thomas 37:14

not so many. I read The Great Gatsby at O'Dowd, I want to say in Mr. Medallias Film and TV film, like, remember that class? do you remember it? It was like, lit, lit to film, or lit, yeah, screen, or something like that,

Jasmine Guillory 37:27

yeah, yeah. And I just, like, nothing about the great. I'm like, oh, bunch of spoiled, rich people, great, yeah. Nothing about it resonates with me. I did really like the great man.

Traci Thomas 37:43

I heard it's great. I didn't get to read it yet, but I've heard it's really good, yeah,

Jasmine Guillory 37:46

because I feel like that's an interesting take on that kind of, you know, theme and trope and whatever. I really liked that. But yeah, say the Great Gatsby is never done.

Traci Thomas 37:58

Okay nd what's second love?

Jasmine Guillory 38:01

I'm gonna go back to actually author who the book I mentioned earlier, Alexa Martin. I love she has a series of football books, intercepted was the first one, and I just love it so much. One of the things that really gets to me in books is kind of like stories about female friendship and like women kind of banding together, which I think romance novels often do very well. But also, you know, she has a really interesting perspective on the NFL, because her husband used to play for the NFL, she's been, like, deeply involved with it, and I love how she kind of talks about all of the stuff wrong with football while still writing a great book about it, you know, and it's a great romance, like, I just really, I loved reading that book, and it came out, I think, the same year the wedding date did, like, a few months later, and I just adored it. And I still do

Traci Thomas 38:57

okay, so I don't ask this question in this way for people who don't write genre, but because I know that, like in genre authors, there's like a much more tight community, and I think, like, a lot of bonds, especially in romance. So I'm wondering, for your reading life, how much are you reading things to sort of stay up on what's going on in the community, and like reading your friends or new authors on the scene, and then how much of your reading life is just whatever sort of strikes your fancy, whether it's a romance novel or not.

Jasmine Guillory 39:31

You know that is, that is one of the hardest things about this job, actually, as someone who has always loved reading, and has read has been a huge like, I read every day, you know, always. And one of the hardest things about this job is reading, which has always been sort of like my relaxing time. Also, I have to read for work now, and that is hard. And. And so having to, like, figure out, okay, when am I going to carve out this time for like, books that I've been sent to blurb, or for books that for that, you know, I'm doing an event with this person, and so I need to read their book or write that I want to, like, stay up on what's going on that has been a challenge, and it's something that I like try to play with every year, like, how am I going to do this? You know? And I think actually one thing that really helps is I was thinking about this a lot, because I know last year, the year before something you posted something about, like, beach reads, that they don't have to be and, yeah, and I realized this actually, when I'm on vacation, I tend like vacation tends to be the time that I this sounds weird, but devote to those books that I'm reading for work. Yeah, partly because when I'm not working, or when I'm like, letting myself relax, when I, you know, if I, especially if I, I'm doing a beach vacation and I'm like, like, reading on the beach or at the pool all day, I have the mental space to, like, dive into things that I kind of think about as work. So it's hard, because reading romance used to be relaxing for me, and it isn't anymore, right? Because I still have the work brain on. So I do read a lot of romance during those times, but I also, like, that's when I kind of read tougher literary fiction, because I, like, have the time to delve into it. Yeah, I try to kind of go back and forth. I'm also almost always rereading something. So I will, like, be like, All right, I'll, you know, read like, 50 pages of this book that I'm blurbing, and then I'll, like, read a little bit of this Agatha Christie that I'm rereading or whatever, to kind of break up the time. But it is something that I really struggle with, because I don't, I never want to lose my love for reading by thinking of it as work. Yeah. So I really try to balance that, and sometimes the balance is off in one way or the other.

Traci Thomas 42:05

I get it. I get it big time. Do you do audio books?

Jasmine Guillory 42:09

I never used to do audio books, and then I got a dog, and so I listen to audio books often when I walk my dog. But for me, what I have found is non fiction works much better for me. I can't I tried to read, I tried to listen to fiction, and it doesn't really work for me as well. But non fiction I love in audio, especially like memoirs. I love memoirs and audio.

Traci Thomas 42:34

The only kind of fiction that works for me on audio is extremely voicey, first person books, because that is almost like memoir, where it's like, and then I went to the store, and I can't believe he said this to me, and then I stabbed his wife, or whatever. Like, I'm like, great, I can go with this. I can follow this very linear story. But if there's like, different perspectives, or like a distant narrator, I can't do it.

Jasmine Guillory 42:56

The only book that worked for me, really, in audio, in fiction was yellow face because it is exactly that, yeah. And the narrator was very like, like, she grabbed me. And so that really worked. But, yeah, but like memoir, I listened to a lot of memoirs while walking the dog. So that's and also, I feel like I'm a really fast reader. So in fiction, and I, you know, walk my dog a few times a day, but like, that's a lot slower than I usually can usually read. So I just get too impatient and just like, want to read the book.

Traci Thomas 43:35

Do you have a book that you just, like, love to recommend to people

Jasmine Guillory 43:42

you know, it depends on the person. I definitely like asking a lot of questions. I recommend the warmth of other sons a lot. Yes, because that is such a good book, and it really like, you know, there it mean, it taught me so much about, like, as a history major, I love just learning all of the things that I never really learned in school, but also it just taught me, like, about myself, right? Like, I grew up in Oakland. Both sides of my family were originally from Louisiana, and came to Oakland,

Traci Thomas 44:10

Same

Jasmine Guillory 44:10

which, yes, of course, same, because, like, you're a black person from Oakland, exactly, you know, but like, I didn't growing up, I knew that, but I didn't know why. Like, I didn't, and I didn't, and I didn't really even think about it when you're a kid, like, Oh yeah, okay, all the black people I know are Catholic and from Louisiana who live in Oakland, and that book explaining them why, you know, to me, like, oh okay, they came to work on the shipyards, like my grandfather, oh, right, right obviously, yeah,

Traci Thomas 44:35

I had the same exact experience. It's one of the things like, whenever people hear like Marshawn Lynch or like Ryan Coogler talk, and they're like, why do they have Southern accents? I'm like, Well, let me tell you. Elizabeth Wilkerson has some explaining for you.

Jasmine Guillory 44:50

No, I mean, the first time I ever went to New Orleans, just like, is that? Like, first of all, the first time I ever reached Orleans, I'm checking into a hotel, I say my name, and then I start to spell it. Like. I always do, because you always say my name wrong. And the woman stopped me, and she was like, we know how to spell Guillory here. And I was, oh, yeah, you do. But then I, you know, I look around and like, Oh, everybody here looks like me, like those, those older women look like my aunts. Like, those could be my aunts over there, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, so, I mean, that is one book that I definitely recommend to a lot of people.

Traci Thomas 45:23

How do you organize your books?

Jasmine Guillory 45:28

Very poorly. I mean I always kind of start with like, like, kind of by not by genre, but by like category. So like, I have a lot of children's books, like children's books, cookbooks, nonfiction, fiction, but then I also have, like, there's a big, there's a bookshelf, big bookshelf, like in my living room, that is basically books that I have been sent. So there's just like stacks of them. And then I also have like random stacks of books in my office, which like half of them are like my books, but then half of them are just like other books that I have put in the bookshelf and all of the and then I pull books out, and then I put them back in stacks and and eventually I will reorganize them.

Traci Thomas 46:20

What is your ideal reading, setup, location, time of day, snack and beverage, temperature, music set the scene.

Jasmine Guillory 46:31

Okay, so there are two, okay, one for at home and one for vacation. Okay, vacation is I am either on the beach, in a beach chair, or I am in a pool holding a book. Okay, I like to do a lot of, like walking back and forth in the pool, all reading. But I also enjoy, like, being on a beach chair. The water is right there, and then I have a book, and I can take breaks and, like, get in the water. Yes, beverage is, like, you know, something fruity and delicious, some sort of, like, salty snack like chips and guacamole is perfect, that kind of thing at home, I do the vast majority of my reading in the bathtub.

Traci Thomas 47:18

Okay, snacks and beverages in the bathtub?

Jasmine Guillory 47:20

No I usually have a water bottle, but usually not snacks. Sometimes tea, but yeah.

Traci Thomas 47:30

Reading in the bath is the best. Do you ever do Kindle or e reader?

Jasmine Guillory 47:35

I do a lot of books on Kindle.

Traci Thomas 47:37

Yeah, I do too, especially in the bath, because I like to have the lights out, and I don't like using my reading light in the bathtub. While, I don't care if I drop my book in the water, which, you know, I've never done

Jasmine Guillory 47:48

I used to do that a lot when I was a kid. I haven't done it in years. But, yeah, I have, I still have a lot of, like, very waterlogged books

Traci Thomas 47:56

but, yeah, the light is the thing that trips me up about in the bathroom. I have, like, a little lamp that I can turn, but the e reader is better for the bath

Jasmine Guillory 48:06

I mean, here's the thing, there are many, many bad things about Amazon, but the Kindle is really the best thing that they've ever done. I agree with that. The lack of, like, the lack of the backlight, it's just such an easy good reading experience. I also really, like, like, all of my friends make fun of me when they see how big I have the print on my Kindle.

Traci Thomas 48:28

What size do you go approximately?

Jasmine Guillory 48:32

I think like, I'm 10

Traci Thomas 48:34

Oh my gosh, I'm a four or five

Jasmine Guillory 48:37

Oh yeah. I go big

Traci Thomas 48:39

oh my gosh. See, I'm always just, like, trying to maximize the number of words on the page, because I don't like, like, because I'm usually cold, so I'm like, tucked in. Like, do you have a clicker? I know people have clickers but that seems like a bridge too far for me

Jasmine Guillory 48:51

No I know a lot of people have clickers, but yeah, I'm like, also I feel like, that's little how would I keep track of it?

Traci Thomas 48:55

Yeah, the clicker is not for me. But, yeah, shout out to everybody who has one, I mean, I tell a story. So I have twins, you know. And when I was breastfeeding in the very beginning, I would have each baby one on each boob, and I would put my Kindle, I'd sit cross legged, I put my Kindle, like on my shin or knee, and then I would reach down with my nose to turn the page. I did not know about the clicker, I think, then, it would have made a lot of sense, but I didn't find out about the clickers until a year later

Jasmine Guillory 49:20

I also think clickers are relatively new, so maybe

Traci Thomas 49:23

Yeah I made it work, and I read Anna K. Much of Anna K I read that way actually. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Jasmine Guillory 49:31

My favorite local bookstore is East Bay Booksellers here in Oakland, which a little over a year ago, had a very tragic fire. They have re opened into a new location, which is great, and I have been going there for a very long time, and they've been like, super supportive of me, and the staff who work there are all so great. So yeah, we had, we had some real bonding moments when, because I've done. Like, a lot of you know, signed pre orders there. And there were times like, you know, because I had a book come out in June of 2020 and so I went to go sign pre orders there. And, like, I was the only person they let in the store. We were all huddled in masks. I'm signing books. And, yeah, they're great. But I love, like, one of my favorite things about going on book tour is just like getting to go to different bookstores all across the country, and like meeting the staff. Because, like, I've always loved independent bookstores. I feel like those like bookstore owners, have you know throughout my life, have like, been like, oh, you're a kid who loves to read. Great. I have ideas for you. And my parents were like, great. Give her show her books to read. Yeah, yeah. And so I, like, there are so many bookstores that I just love and have loved to get to explore as I visited them.

Traci Thomas 50:50

So okay, this is our rapid fire, so you just tell me the answer. You don't even have to explain. What's the last book that made you laugh?

Jasmine Guillory 50:57

Kin by Tayari Jones.

Traci Thomas 50:59

It's so good. What's the last book that made you cry?

Jasmine Guillory 51:03

Here's the thing about me, is that I am not really a crier. So unfortunately, I feel like the last book that made me cry was one of my books while I was working on it.

Traci Thomas 51:16

Okay, what's the last book that made you angry?

Jasmine Guillory 51:20

Also Kin by Tayari Jones. I'm in the midst of reading it right now.

Traci Thomas 51:24

So good. Oh my gosh, it comes out the end of February. So people listening, you're almost there, you're almost there. It's like 20 more days and it'll be here. What's the last book where you felt like you learned a lot?

Jasmine Guillory 51:37

I guess I'm thinking nonfiction with this. But you know, I'll go back to fiction on this one. I feel like Whidbey, which I already talked about earlier.

Traci Thomas 51:45

Yeah, okay, is there a book that you're like, maybe not deeply, but sort of embarrassed, that you've never read before?

Jasmine Guillory 51:55

Probably quite a few, but weirdly, Twilight, I've never read. I feel like it's a book that, like everybody in romance has read, and people talk abowut it all the time, and I'm like, I mean, I know who Edward and Jacob are

Traci Thomas 52:15

Is there a book that you wish more people knew about?

Jasmine Guillory 52:23

The Yellow House by Sarah M broom. Have you read that?

Traci Thomas 52:26

I started I never finished it

Jasmine Guillory 52:29

I really loved it. It's memoir, like reported memoir ish, but it's about her family, but also her experience in Hurricane Katrina, and I just loved it so much. I mean, I think partly because there were a lot of, like, I there were a lot of sort of parallels with small parallels with my life that I saw in it, but also I just, like, loved the reading experience of it.

Traci Thomas 52:56

I feel like you'll have an answer for this, because you're a romance reader, and so what is your problematic favorite book?

Jasmine Guillory 53:07

So devil in winter, by Lisa Kleypas. I don't know if I say her last name, right? I love that book so much. It is part of a series in the it's the second in a series. In the first book of the series, the hero of devil in winter kind of threatened to rape someone, okay, not great, and definitely kidnapped her. Okay, not great, not great. But I love him in this book so much. And like, it's funny, because I talked about, like, the like, FaceTime call I have with two of my best friends. Two of us had read this book and loved it and have loved it for years, and then the other one, like, started the series, and, like, read the first one and then read the second one. And then it was like, you guys, how do you like this book? Because didn't he? And we were like, well, yeah, but yeah,

Traci Thomas 54:00

but it's fine. It's fiction. It's fine. I get it. I get it. Okay, just two more questions for me. One is, if you were a high school teacher, what is the book you would assign to your students?

Jasmine Guillory 54:16

Okay, the girls who grew big by another Dr, Glenn, I really love that book, and I love the way it talks about teenage girls. And like, I feel like in so many of it's, you know, it's a book about teenage moms, and I think in so many of the media about teenage girls, what it's looking down on them, and I, and I feel like this book treats them as equals in a way that society usually does not.

Traci Thomas 54:50

I love, that we love Layla here, yeah, okay, last one, if you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would you want it to be?

Jasmine Guillory 55:00

Like, I don't know green eggs and ham. I mean, I feel like, I feel like the only thing that would get through it, the only thing that, first of all, he's cognitively able to understand is like a children's book, which is, that's not a that's not an insult to children's books. In the least. I think picture books are incredible. So I feel like, yeah, maybe a great picture book would be able to get through to him in some way.

Traci Thomas 55:26

I'm like, the number one, Green Eggs and Ham Stan. I think that book is perfect. I'm like, this is, it's written in iambic pentameter. It's like, perfect. It's a perfect example of, like, changing your mind. Like, yeah. I mean, all the time to my kids before it gets the end, or when I get to end, I'm always like, do you see what happened? He thought he didn't like this thing, and then, then he tried it. Try it. You will see, you know, I'm just, I love it so much.

Jasmine Guillory 55:52

I mean, it's always one of my favorite books. It's like a perfect book. Maybe, maybe I also think more people should be open to the possibility of changing their minds, like, I think that too many people think changing your mind is weakness. And that's, it's the opposite. It's like you learn new things and you change your mind, right? And that's, that's, that's saying that you're smart because you learned and you changed your mind.

Traci Thomas 56:21

Wow. Learning, reading, changing your mind. Of all incredible things, I love this recommendation. All right, party people, this has been a conversation with the one and only amazing Jasmine Guillory. You can get one of her nine books wherever books are sold. The first one, which is where I think you should start, is the wedding date. But I also really like the proposal, which was number two, and that has a baseball bent to it. So even though, you know the Dodgers, which I not wild about, are there, I still like the book, which is saying something so but there's so many. There's there's, there's one for older people, there's one, there's a lesbian one, there's a there's a follow up, like there's, you know, so whatever you're into, unless it's hidden babies, secret babies. There's a book for you. Okay, there's no bets and there's no secret babies. But otherwise, there is a jasmine gilberry book for you. Jasmine and I will be back on February 25 to discuss with spoilers. Indigo, by Beverly Jenkins, so get your copy of the book, wherever you get your books, and we will see you guys back then. Jasmine, thank you so much.

Jasmine Guillory 57:32

Thank you for having me. Can't wait to talk about Indigo. I'm so excited.

Traci Thomas 57:35

And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Jasmine Guillory for joining the show special. Shout out to Disha Filia for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for February is Indigo by Beverly Jenkins, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, February 25 with Jasmine Guillory returning as our guest. If you love the stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the. Stacks to join the stacks. Pack and check out my newsletter unstacked at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. Please make sure that you are subscribed to the stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and check out our website at the stacks podcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from tagiragis. The stacks is created and produced by me. Traci Thomas.

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