Ep. 421 What I Love About Love with Adrienne Thurman

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re joined by Adrienne Thurman to discuss her debut novel, Don’t Tell Me How It Ends. This book follows KaiaHarper, a floundering 20-something who’s sworn off romance until she’s asked to be the first client in her sister’s matchmaking business. As she suffers through bad dates and failed matches, she finds herself falling for an unexpected man she meets in a chance encounter. We chat about writing romance while going through a divorce, her journey to becoming an author, and why readers take issue with unlikable women finding love.

The Stacks Book Club pick for April is Room Swept Home by Remica Bingham-Risher. We’ll be discussing the book with Mahogany L. Browne on Wednesday, April 29.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Adrienne Thurman 0:00

After that separation and then going through the divorce, I was, like, fast drafting, purely out of spite and like escape and just like, not wanting to be defined by the moment or this experience. And so I wanted something. I wanted to hold on to something. I wanted something that felt like it was mine. And so I actually think, like, what felt like it would be almost impossible to write and do and do well. It ended up kind of being that wish fulfillment, like, what do I wish I could have had? What do I wish I could have? How do I wish I could have been seen and known and loved? It like reminded me of, like, what I love about love?

Traci Thomas 0:44

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by Adrienne Thurman to discuss her debut novel. Don't tell me how it ends. This book follows Kaia Harper, a floundering 20 something who's sworn off romance until she's asked to be the first client in her sister's matchmaking business. As she suffers through bad dates and failed matches, she finds herself falling in love with a tow truck guy Ro Jackson. Today, Adrienne and I talk about unlikable women characters and their place in the romance genre, how she came to become a romance writer after years of odd jobs, moving around the country, and the ways her own divorce empowered her to write this love story. Our book club pick for April is room swept home by Remica Bingham-Risher, and we will discuss the book with mahogany brown on Wednesday, April 29 everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the stacks pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter. Unstacked on sub stack, each place offers different perks. You're going to find a ton of community conversation over on the Patreon, and you're going to get a lot of my writing and hot takes and literary trends over on the sub stack, plus, and this part's important now, Your support makes it possible for me to make the stacks every single week to join head to patreon.com/the. Stacks for the stacks, pack and head to Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. For my newsletter. All right, now it's time for my conversation with Adrienne Thurman.

Alright, everybody. I am so excited. I am joined today by debut romance novelist Adrienne Thurman. Her brand new book is called Don't Tell Me How It Ends. It has an unlikable woman as the lead. So you know, I'm excited about it. It has a very hunky man who I was also very excited about, and it has a lot of other stuff going on which I'm excited to talk about. So before we get to all of that, Adrienne, welcome to the stacks.

Adrienne Thurman 2:52

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:54

I'm so excited. We have to tell people, This is the first time ever, I think, in the history of the stacks that we have had now siblings on this very podcast. You are the sister to Nicole Thurman, who only people who have listened to this show for a long time will remember. But Nicole was on in 2019 when we did that horrible like mystery, horror book for book club, I'm thinking of ending things so you guys are now officially, like, in the stacks on the oldest book of world records. Yeah, yeah. It's, like, the first time we've ever had siblings. So congratulations to you.

Adrienne Thurman 3:35

Thank you so much. It's funny because I don't know if you remember, but she told me initially not to listen to her episode. And so, like, for the longest time, I didn't, and then last night, I was like, I have to at least know

Traci Thomas 3:46

what was it? Was it bad?

Adrienne Thurman 3:47

The only thing that I the only thing that I was thinking about, like last night, when I was listening to whichever one I heard, was just how much like, life has happened since then. Like, it just, like 2019 was so long ago. So just Yeah, being like, wow. Like, totally different, like, life, stage and job and everything. And it's just like, crazy, how much time passes? How quickly?

Traci Thomas 4:08

Yeah, yeah, never go back and listen, because I feel like sometimes it would make me feel weird about like time passing. Yeah, it's like, have it documented every week of my life for eight years is like, Yeah, crazy.

Adrienne Thurman 4:23

It's fun for me to go back, but I don't blame you.

Traci Thomas 4:24

Yeah, I don't people are like, Oh, I went back and listen to this episode. I'm like, oh, hope I didn't say anything embarrassing, because I know I was saying dumb shit back then, for sure. Cuz, who was I?

Adrienne Thurman 4:36

Yeah, I just wasn't putting it into a mic.

Traci Thomas 4:39

Yes, I know this mistake for you know. Okay, okay, okay, let's talk about your book. Let's talk about your book. Don't tell me how it ends. Tell people, in like, 30 seconds or so, what this book is about.

Adrienne Thurman 4:51

Okay, so don't tell me how it ends. Is a contemporary romance. The story is about Kaya Harper, who is a recent college graduate, who's back home for the summer, she is decidedly and very vocally romance and love a verse and just not into it. But when her sister decides to start her own matchmaking business, Kaya gets roped in as her first matchmaking client. So this summer that she had expected to be sort of like planning out some practical next steps into her adulthood ends up being like a few months of bad dates and failed matches and then one chance encounter with a guy who has her questioning everything she thought she knew and believed about love and ultimately herself.

Traci Thomas 5:39

Okay. You are new to writing books. You've got two kids books. You've got this book, but you had, like, a whole life, yeah, for this what? What was it that you did? What? What was your world? And how did you decide I want to write books? I want to write a romance novel.

Adrienne Thurman 5:58

So I think it's funny, I like, been thinking back a lot as I've been, like, dealing with, like, the like, like, lead up to, to the publication of this novel. And it's funny, because, like, when I look back, and I think, like, the obvious question for a lot of writers is, like, Did you always want to be a writer? Did you always know you wanted to write? And I always really enjoyed writing. But when I look back, I never remember feeling like a very creative person. And I don't, I was always like, like, my oldest sister was the actress, and then my middle sister was the artist, and I was like, the one who was just like, good at school. And so I was really focused there. And I like, graduated high school early, and I like, did a post back for pre med, you know, and I was like, gonna be a doctor. I was sure of it. And then kind of like, as I went through life, things just kind of kept unfolding and kept kind of moving me in different directions. So there were, like, a lot of false starts, just in terms of, like, what do I want to do, what do I want to be? And then through that, I ended up meeting a guy, as you do, and getting married, and his career had us like bouncing from city to city. So for a lot of years, I was just sort of like along for the ride, which, like, is a terrible thing to think about now in hindsight, but I at the time, it felt like, you know, we were in it together. So, so yeah. So it wasn't until I had my daughter, where I was kind of at that point just like, working, like, job to job and city to city as we moved around. And then when I had my daughter, I think, was the first time that I actually, like, paused long enough to think, like, Okay, well, what do I really want to do, like, long term, what's important to me? What haven't I accessed or, like, seen through. And you know, if I'm like, sitting here thinking about what's possible for her, it just kind of got me thinking about what might be possible for me. So it was really just like, total happenstance, and just like, kind of the like, how life moves you in ways you never saw coming

Traci Thomas 7:58

But how was the thing that you came to writing?

Adrienne Thurman 8:01

I mean, I always really loved words and writing, but I only ever really did it in school. And so I think that I've always just, like seen it as, like a very like academic thing that was very separate from anything that I would pursue professionally. And so as like, with my daughter, we were just reading a ton. I was reading picture books to her, you know, all day, all night. And I think it just like, got my head really, like working, and I was like, I think I could do this, because I've always loved, like, you know, like little snippets of like narratives and like little like poems and stuff. And so many of those books are really great, and then some are, like, less great. And so I feel like it was, like, a little less daunting to think about tackling that. It just felt like I was, like, I could do this. We're always making up songs, and we're always, you know, I was kind of doing it anyway. And so I just tried. I mean, it was truly as simple as that. There was no real, like, long term plan or real like, you know, foresight, other than just to be like, let me see if I could do it. And so I started writing picture book drafts, just like when she would be napping and stuff. And then I just was like, let me see if I could publish it or place this anywhere. So it was just like, one thing led to the next. But it was never really like. I never really stopped to think, is it feasible? Is it too daunting? Is it too big? It was just like one thing led to the next, led to the next. And I, just after I had kind of found a little bit of like, my groove with picture books, I was like, I wonder if I could write a novel. And that was kind of the beginning of the end.

Traci Thomas 9:38

I love this. I love that you were like, yeah. See, like, let me just try my hand at this, yeah. Why romance?

Adrienne Thurman 9:44

I have always loved romance. I think, like, so I was the, like, the story the black girl in the white, you know, Kansas, neighborhood, high schools, whatever. So I was like, never. I never was invited to a dance. I never had a boyfriend I never had, like, any of that, like romance in my own life, or like that, like main character experience. And so I think that I really just like, sought it out, and like, loved it in books, movies and shows, and it was just like the like, ultimate wish fulfillment, even just like, as a viewer or a reader. And so I just, like, loved it. I mean, I loved it in like, the messiest ways that you aren't supposed to learn to love love, like, 90210, you know, toxic love. And but I just like, couldn't get enough. And so as I, like, started to get back into reading. Because there was a period where I was kind of like, like, less into reading, but it was just like, such a perfect gateway back into books that I had kind of like fallen off with, and so, yeah, so I just, I mean, I love it. I feel like every story is better with, like, just like a little dash of Will they, won't they? And so it just felt like a really, kind of like natural progression for me. And they will, by the way

Traci Thomas 11:00

They will they always do. It's like they all. It always works out so I know good for them. Yeah, one of the things I really like about the book is Kaia is not your typical romance protagonist. Yeah, I use the phrase unlikable as complimentary, because the kind of fiction that I like. I know that, you know, in romance communities, there's lots of debate around a likable, unlikable main character, and that's different, and I think than in other genres. I mean, I think across genres, people do struggle with unlikable women, but I think in romance, it's like, really, can be really a thing, especially by black writers, especially when it's a black woman. So I'm curious what it was for you that you wanted to explore with Kaya, why you wanted to sort of enter the fray with this sort of, like, I mean, she's not that unlikable. She's just 24, sure, but I like, she's not unlike, like, this. This isn't a spoiler, but she's not unlikable. Like, she's like, setting cats on fire. You know, that's what I'm she's not even likable in the sense that she's like, cheating or doing. You know, she's not abusive. She just is, like, fucking and like, yeah, kind of 24 and like, over it, and has a little bit of, like a shield up around her, she's a little prickly

Adrienne Thurman 12:30

Absolutely. And I think that for me, like, I love an unlikable character too. And I think in romance, especially, where so often we get, like, a different archetype, I was just really excited to, like, have her come in imperfect or flawed or whatever, and stay that way and like, Be Loved through it, without having to have this, like, big, like, I see the light I am changed. You know, I am better for it. I feel like I just wanted her to feel very real, because that's kind of what I always seek out in any story, romance included. And so, I mean, there's, there's plenty of options to draw from for that, but like for me, it felt very natural to have a character be just who she was. And I agree, she's not unlikeable in, like, a problematic way, where you're like, she needs to be like canceled and cut off and like someone take the mic from her.

Traci Thomas 13:20

She's not an asshole

Adrienne Thurman 13:21

She's not an asshole. I think what she is is she's just, like, not like, easy or concerned with, like, you know, her reception. And I feel like there's a lot in romance. Specifically, there's so much conversation, you know, it's, it's very often by women, for women. And so I think that there's a lot of conversation about, like, the terms that we're using, the responses that we're having to characters, and I think that there's, like, often a lot of, like, internalized misogyny that we're like, having to kind of, like, peel back and say, like, Okay, well, she rubbed you the wrong way. Why do you think that is like, Why do you think you had such a strong reaction to her just being at this life stage and being confused and being kind of a mess. And so I think for me, I like any book or story or character that kind of breeds conversation and like a reaction, whatever the reaction is. And I think that, I think that it was just really important to see and to write someone who was like, just loved through the process as she was and wherever she was heading.

Traci Thomas 14:32

Yeah, I think the way that we sort of deal with unlikable characters or whatever is really interesting to me, because I especially in romance, because I am a person who likes mess, you know, me too, not in my personal life, but as far as entertainment goes, like I'm like, Oh, the messier the thing, the more likely I am to watch or read or sit with it. And I think part of my process. Problem with romance, and this is such a generalization, is that sometimes, in an effort to sort of placate certain audiences, characters are too clean for me. And I'm like, Yes, but dating is messy, like, yeah, and I find that with a character that is slightly unlikable, like, I'm thinking of a book. I'm thinking of you made a fool of death with your beauty. Oh yeah, we did that for book club here. And people really struggle with that book. And lots of people told me it wasn't a romance, because, yeah, there's different there's different love interests, like, and the main one doesn't like it's like, whatever I don't want to spoil, but like, the timeline makes it not a romance. And I was like, I don't buy that. I think it has a lot more to do with people not liking the main or not agreeing, like not even working with her choices. And I don't read books like that. I'm like, I'm not here like reality TV. I'm not here to make friends. I'm not hanging out with Kaia. I'm not going to Kaia for advice. I would like to watch a person who is not perfect enter the world and do things imperfectly, and I understand that I am not again the typical romance reader, but I have found that when I like romance books the most it's because the female main character is sort of messy or unrefined or chaotic or whatever that is. I'm just like, there are people who want something and go after that, regardless of the people around them. And I'm sort of like, that is entertainment to me, like the things that I love most. Are especially stories that center women. Are the ones where that's who the main character is. And so I think that has been a thing that's hard for me in romance, because I do think you're right. There's like this weird misogyny going on, of like, she's got to be perfect to be worthy of love. And again, this is such a generalization. This isn't all romance books.

Adrienne Thurman 17:09

No, I don't even think I'm speaking so much to the books themselves, but like the reception of the books and like the audience, I think that people have, like, an expectation of a certain arc. I think that a lot of romance readers, and like, I love them, the romance community is, like, unmatched. It's, I mean, they're so rampant and enthusiastic and, like, really invested, and so a lot of this just comes from that. But I do think that there's like, an expectation that, like, she can be messy, but only this messy, and only for this long, and then I need her to kind of, like, get it together, to figure it out, go to therapy, do the things that you would actually tell, like a person in like the real world to do. But I think, like, that's a fine expectation, and it works for some stories. I just wish that there was like, a little bit more grace for stories that don't necessarily follow that same trajectory, and characters, characters who take a little longer to get there. And I think that it's a combination of like the like self inserting that makes people feel like a weird mirror to the character. And they're like, Well, I wouldn't do that. That's not me, but it's like, again, that's not how I read. But I understand that there's some of that, but I think that also there's, you know, a lot of times like, when we're crafting these characters, we're pulling from people we know or experience we've seen play out. And we might be like a bunch of mess or a bunch of different people, but it still feels very familiar and maybe a little bit too close sometimes. And then when we're writing a love interest, often, we're thinking about who can meet and match and challenge that character, what do they need to have to like, stand up and like, deserve the airtime to screen time. But I think sometimes it ends up like the the love interest can be a little bit more of like the fictionalized character who can meet a more familiar, maybe more flawed, and more familiar, and like real ways character where they're at. And I think that sometimes it's like, the familiarity breeds contempt a little bit. You know, it's like, I know her, but I don't like her because, and it's like, I think you should be able to know her, not like her, and read the story anyway.

Traci Thomas 19:19

Yeah, I also, I'm just as I'm listening to you talk. I'm thinking about like, I mean, it feels like something that's like systemic that we don't believe, like women deserve love unless they have lived up to some certain, like, checklist. But I'm also thinking so often, and maybe this is just because I'm a black woman, so the majority of romance that I read are written about and are center black women. But I feel like I hear a lot about unlikable main characters when it comes to black romance novels, and I can't speak to white romance novels because I don't read them really, and so I don't really know, but I just I do think that there's something really. Racialized. And I think that's in I just think it's, you know, it's curious.

Adrienne Thurman 20:06

It's curious. So Nikki Payne, who's a black romance author, she blurbed this book, and so she wrote an email after she read it, and she was, like, we were talking about just like the ways it's like, you know, like a very black experience, even in all the ways she was, like running into herself and like pushing against herself and like refusing to ask for help, I think that there's a certain like lived experience that can be a little uncomfortable to look at, and isn't always like pretty and clean, but is, in my opinion, really real, like, for better or worse, and I do think that there is, you know, there's, there are so many, like, huge white romance authors that when you're when you are doing that side to side comparison, very often, you do see, like, a stark difference in the character archetypes. So it's, it's tough. I feel like I'm always going to want to write a character that feels like layered and real and messy. Because, like, for me, that's why I'm there. But I, I, you know, it's like everything else, it's just so subjective, and it's like different strokes. So I, I'm totally okay to, like, get the I couldn't stand her. She was what, you know, that's fine. But I do find it very curious

Traci Thomas 21:20

Yeah, yeah. And I also feel like, for me, not liking the character is like, I'm like, if you can write someone that I actually dislike, props to you. I don't think Kaia is that bad. Like, I think Kaya is just like, 24. I kept being like, yeah, no, that tracks like she just wants to hook up.

Adrienne Thurman 21:38

It's summer, it's like, a few months, like, in order to be completely changed and healed and and flawless. But I do think it's, yeah, I think that there's, there's like, an expectation that it's like, for the first half of the book, she can be difficult, and then we need her.

Traci Thomas 21:53

And then she has to, like, be better. I think, speaking of like, her being 24 one of the things I was thinking about as I was reading this book is, like, at 24 you know, it might be happily for now. You know guys like, she just might meet other people. Like, let's be real. Some people get married at 22 and some people get married at 42 and in between those years or never, or whatever. But it's like the idea that I just I just, I was thinking a lot about, like, what happens to Kaia if this book starts when she's 29 you know, like, what does that look like? And I'm wondering if you thought at all about when and where to place her, how like, if that's even an exercise you think about as a romance writer, or if you felt very strongly, like, I want her to be, like, pretty young.

Adrienne Thurman 22:42

Yeah, I think for me, I like, I think if you look at the three women in this book, like there's Kaia and then her older sister and their mother, and I feel like that, to me, is where I was kind of looking at the whole, like, arc of a woman's life. And it was sort of this idea for me that coming of age never really ends, yeah, and so for her to be as young as she was, I felt like it was, I was able to like, reflect on that time, but in a way where I had enough distance from it to like, for me to have grace for Kaya, where maybe she can't for herself. Yeah, it's funny, because there's a lot of reactions to, like, whether or not you include an Epilogue, and like, what happens next and that you know you want to see there happily ever after. But I'm really also of the mind that a happy for now is really sometimes what fits the character and the story and the life stage. And so it's like, very much like intentional that she would be young. And also it like leaves space to keep going forward. But also I just feel like it's like an important life stage, because I think maybe one of the first times where you're realizing, like, Okay, I'm not going to have it figured out in the timeline that I set for myself when I was eight. You know, yeah, and I feel like that's just like a very confrontive period in life. So I think it was just like, ripe for like, conversation, as was true for the other characters as well, hopefully.

Traci Thomas 24:04

Yeah, let's take a quick break, and then we'll be back. All right, we're back. I want to ask you a little bit about your life, only because you've written about it publicly. I normally wouldn't do that, but I do think that's interesting. You went through a divorce sort of while you were working on this book, and you wrote about it on substack maybe a few years ago, and it was like about writing romance through heartbreak. And so I'm really just curious about that, because it does seem like you know you're writing these scenes. And it would be like, and then Kaia takes a knife out, stabs him in his dick. You know, like, some days you're just like, we had mediation today, and then she went to his house and bashed the windows in his car. Because, yeah, it ain't shit. So I'm curious about, like, did you start this book before the divorce? Were you writing this during it? How did it change, if this was going on during all of that, Were there moments where you were like, maybe this is literary fiction, maybe this is not a romance, like, maybe it will fall apart and she'll burn the house down and end up in prison? Who knows? So I'm just curious about all of that.

Adrienne Thurman 24:04

All yes for all the things, but I think that so I started writing the book before I had any indication that my marriage was on the rocks or ending. So there was, like the before times it was a completely different book, completely different story. I mean, I rewrote it from like studs. So after that separation, and then then going through the divorce, it was I was, like, fast drafting purely out of spite and like escape and just like, like, not wanting to be defined by the moment or this experience, or like, I had invested a lot of myself in my marriage and in sort of like that identity. So I think that when one thing, like, gets completely uprooted, you know, you want to be tethered somewhere into something. And so, like, obviously, like, my identity as a mother was really important to me, but it didn't feel like it was, like, you know, completely my own. It's really all kind of give. And so I wanted something. I wanted to hold on to something. I wanted something that felt like it was mine. And so as I started to work on it, I really felt like a a race against the clock just to see how much I could get done before I fell apart. If that was what was, you know, on the horizon. But then also, I think in writing it, and in writing it this way, I could kind of like hide in different characters that were having, like, totally different life experiences, and then always have the romance to come back to that was almost like a little bit of a life raft for me to, like, kind of force me fully out of myself and into the character in that moment. And so I actually think, like what felt like it would be almost impossible to write and do and do well it ended up again, like kind of being that wish fulfillment, like, what do I wish I could have had? What do I wish I could have? How do I wish I could have been seen and known and loved? And how do I wish I could have been messy and flawed and still safe, you know? And so I think that being able to create that for the character when I didn't have it for myself, it really felt like empowering, but it also really felt like what romance the genre is kind of good for, which is like a safe place to hide, like it really is, like the comfort and the safe landing of a happily ever after. And so it really felt like it was like something that turned out not to feel like it was just this, like spiteful project, but it really was like it like made me it like, reminded me of, like, what I love about love separate from my own story and where it was at in that moment.

Traci Thomas 28:03

Yeah, I mean, you're a better person than me, because if I were you in my acknowledgements, there would be a line and Bill, choke. You know you. Thank you so much. Hope you choke. I know mom. Love you like I let you. There was about it. I was really, I was like, there's gonna be, there's gonna we need at least one thing.

Adrienne Thurman 28:24

But I just didn't want him bound to the work in any way

Traci Thomas 28:28

Like something that was just like, for those of you who tried to ruin me, oh my God, look at me. Now, here's my book. I'm just waiting to write a book, just so that I can write acknowledgements to my enemies, you know, like that. I don't want to write about it'll be two pages, but the acknowledgements will be like, 75 Yeah. We'll be like, I know, to my enemies alphabetically. A, Aaron, yeah, yeah. B, Bill

Adrienne Thurman 28:55

I know. And honestly, like it. It is always tempting, and there is still time, because that, like the embers of that hatred will just continue to fester, yeah? So, yeah. I mean, you never know what's happening in the future. But like, for this I really wanted it to be my own.

Traci Thomas 29:12

You have another book, though, right? Cause there's an excerpt. What are the details on that.

Adrienne Thurman 29:15

Well, for, like, to not spoil the first one, we go forward. It's like a separate, standalone spin off with the older sister a few years ahead to just kind of like, where, where they're all at, and what's going on for her.

Traci Thomas 29:31

Oh, great, great, great. Yeah, well, speaking of the sister and yeah, everybody, how do you name your characters

Adrienne Thurman 29:38

It depends. Like, so for Kaya, I pulled that from like old baby considerations that I had, like in lists for myself to use, okay, before I had my daughter. And then the for Ro, which I'm always like, I wonder if anyone will ever ask about this, because it's so funny to me. I. Named him in like, the first iteration of the book that I started when I was still married, and thought that was, you know, gonna be the thing. And so I just used the name of a friend that I just always loved his name. I thought it was like, very cool. And could be like, like, it's one of those names that, like, who you are defines the name, rather than, like, the name defining you. So I just thought it was, like, kind of cool that he could be all of these different things, like the character could just be, like, very layered and interesting in that way. But what's funny about that name is that then after my husband and I separated, I went out, and I hadn't seen this friend in like, years and years, and then I saw him, and I was like, Oh, hey, you know, Ro, I like, name this character, blah, blah. And he was like, Yeah, I've actually always wanted to, like, talk and, like, get to know you, and I've always had so it was, like, very hilarious, because I named the love interest after him with, like, no, with, like, nothing there. It was kind of hilarious. But, um, so yeah, so it just like, they're pulling from different places of life, and then, like, if someone's, like, an older character, I'll pull from, like, something that feels like more classic or like more timely, depending on how far back we're going.

Traci Thomas 31:10

Is Ro short for anything?

Adrienne Thurman 31:10

I mean, no, no, not Rome. I'm sure for some people it is.

Traci Thomas 31:12

I wasn't sure. I sort of, like, in my mind, as I was reading it, I was like, oh, Ro's short for something, but she's just not telling us. And I sort of liked that because I was like, that's sort of fun. Like, you know, some people know, some people just go by a nickname, and like, nobody ever says their name, but like it's there. And I feel like, yeah, in a book, someone would be like, ro, but my real name's roman

Adrienne Thurman 31:33

Or his mom or something will call him

Traci Thomas 31:35

And I was like, Oh, I sort of love that. Like, this could just be a nickname, and there's, like, a whole name, and we just don't even know

Adrienne Thurman 31:43

Well, any takeaway a reader comes up with and loves. I'm like, Oh, sure, I'm totally taking that from here on out. Like, yeah

Traci Thomas 31:50

I just I hate when authors, like, tell me everything, like, when they like, and she did this, because I'm like, I can figure it out. So it sort of felt like a fun little like, Oh, I wonder what his name is.

Adrienne Thurman 32:01

You're like, I'm like, I'm in the family. Like, we're familiar. It's so hard, though, it's such a hard balance, like the telling everything and not telling enough. It's like, ooh, it's hard to know.

Traci Thomas 32:11

How do you know? How do you decide?

Adrienne Thurman 32:13

Well, I am also someone who doesn't like to like, have it all handed to me, and I like to be like, you know, if you can't connect these two dots, maybe those dots aren't for you, and just keep going to the next ones. So it's, it's funny, because, like, a lot of it is conversation with your editors and to see if there's, like, kind of a common thread, like, something that's not clicking for multiple people or through multiple passes. And then maybe you're like, okay, like, I'll give a little more here, and then maybe they'll bring up something here that you could consider. But then you just be like, No, I just be like, No, I think it's fine. So it's just like, the editorial conversation, and I feel like it's for me, like, you know, speaking to how I also write picture books, I am, like, very economical with my words. Like, I like to get in there and just like, so, so yeah. So I for story, and then also just for, like, the sound on the page, the way something like will hit my ear. I just am, like, very conservative with my words. So do you read your books out loud stylistically? Oh, yes, every, every word, like, through every draft and dialog. I don't know how anybody writes it any other way.

Traci Thomas 33:18

Yeah. Wait, tell us about the picture books, because one came out earlier this year or it comes out later this year?

Adrienne Thurman 33:27

Yes, No Way Wash Day is the first picture book, and it is about a little girl trying to escape her like weekly wash day routine, which is absolutely my daughter forever more. And that one came out in January, and then the second one that's coming out in August of this year is called the brunch shift. And so that is about a little girl who goes to work with her mom at a diner to work the brunch shift. And like, throughout the day, they steal, like little moments of time and just go on these, like quick little, like imaginative adventures, just the two of them, like stealing little, like pockets of fun in just like a busy work day. So that one comes out August, and then there's another next year. Though, I don't, I don't know if we have a release date for that. You know books, it's like, I'm always, you never know

Traci Thomas 34:18

Yeah no, you never know. What about the cover and the title for this book.

Adrienne Thurman 34:22

So the titles I struggle with, like, I know some people, it's like, they're like, I had the title before I even wrote a word that is so not me. So I sent over, I'm terrible, like, I sent over so many just horrible ideas to my agent and and then throughout the process with my editors also, I think, like, through, like, very close to the end, we were still, like, considering whether or not to change the name.

Traci Thomas 34:46

What was the name you were thinking?

Adrienne Thurman 34:47

I feel like the like, first one, like, years ago was like, not what I signed up for, something like that. I don't know. It was like, I mean, not good stuff. And I think my my agent came. Up with this name, with this title, and so, yeah, so that one was her, and then the cover. So the the cover was such a process. It was like, I am someone who, like, for me, like, I struggle a little bit with, like, traditional romance and rom com covers, I like a bit more of, like, a grittier, like, artistic vibe, like I always say I want, like, horror on the outside and romance in the middle.

Traci Thomas 35:30

What's a cover that does that? I'm just curious what you're thinking

No, I don't know that's what I'm saying.

Adrienne Thurman 35:33

Oh yeah. I wasn't sure if you were like, I like these covers.

Yeah I mean like, I, when I was sending in inspo I sent, I like, I know people have like, very strong reactions to photographic covers. Weirdly, people don't care for them. I love them. And so that was like, where I went first. Natasha Cunningham is who did Kennedy Ryan's covers. Oh, yeah. And so there's like, it's like, a little bit of like, mixed media, where it's, like, the photograph and then, like, a little bit of, and I love that all of my ideas were promptly nixed.

Traci Thomas 36:09

They were like, you're a debut author, so good luck.

Adrienne Thurman 36:11

Yeah. They were like, Well, what about this? But no, I mean, the artist that they ended up using was someone who does a lot of, like, really cool work. And getting the characters right was, like, kind of a challenge. It was, like, a ton of back and forth, but and the pose, it's also hard. I'm like, I'm someone who doesn't even really want characters on the cover at all, yeah. And so finding, like, the balance of like, okay, well, Adrienne, they're gonna be there, but like, let's do it in a way that feels like a little bit just like different or like, you know, not as, I don't know, just like, I mean, they're cartoons, but it's like, I just didn't want it to feel too bubble gummy, you know, too, too happy, yeah, and so, yeah. So I think just trying to keep it like, a little less literal, like, I didn't want them like in a scene, in that in that way, like cartoon characters in a scene. So just trying to find something that like feels a little bit more like me and a little bit more like the story, but then also works for, like sales and marketing and all that. So it's like a lot of a lot of opinions being thrown around.

Traci Thomas 37:17

I mean, I just, I'm fascinated with the romance genre, because I also feel like the covers are so specific, in the same way that, like, the rules of romance are so specific, yeah, what's accepted. And I become really interested in the evolution, like, away from, I guess, what they call the clinch cover, and like the covers, to this new, like, Cartoon Universe on your cover. I appreciate that they're kissing. So you're like, Oh, this is a romance. Sometimes it's like two characters.

Adrienne Thurman 37:47

And that was a cue

Traci Thomas 37:49

like, far apart on the cover. And I'm just like, Is this, like, what, like, this could be about anything or something, just like a woman in a cartoon.

Adrienne Thurman 37:59

But I think, I think I always skew a little bit towards, like, women's fiction, so I'm like, always, like, a little bit, like, on the line, but I like that

Traci Thomas 38:07

But I just like, it's clear it's romance to me. Do you know what I mean?

Adrienne Thurman 38:12

That's why they do the other thing, yeah, they want it to be like, you're walking up by a table and you just, know, like that, like immediate, sort of like, you know. And also, I feel like it's so different now, because they're not even always thinking about walking by the table or walking by the shelf. They're thinking like scrolling through a thumbnail. So it's like, really, it has to cue it immediately. So it's like, yeah, those trends, like, they work for a reason. And I think that because people put out romance books relatively quickly, like once a year or so, I feel like you can really, like, respond to those trends more quickly than like another, like a literary, you know, fiction novel would, because it's like a longer process. So you can't really, it's not, it's like less like trend forward.

Traci Thomas 38:55

But I do think even in the last few years, literary fiction, other types of genre fiction have gotten even more entrenched in the aesthetic of the thing for this reason. It's like, if someone's scrolling, you want to make sure that you recognize that this book signifies the things that mean thriller, or signifies the things that mean literary.

Adrienne Thurman 39:16

I mean every element of it is just like, how quickly can you catch and get someone's attention, which is fascinating.

Traci Thomas 39:22

But what's crazy like, it's like, everyone's like, don't judge a book by a cover. I'm like, No, you're literally supposed to. The cover is designed for you to judge it and decide if want to spend, at a glance, $30 on the book in that moment. Now that doesn't mean that what's in the book will be as good as if it's a beautiful cover, or, as bad, if it's a shit cover, but the cover is there for you to judge and make a decision. It's designed so hyper specifically for that exact reason.

Adrienne Thurman 39:52

Yeah. I mean for everything, like for food, or like a cake. Like, why is a cake pretty so you want to taste it like it's really it just is. Like. You like, that is, like, if you're shopping and you're just, I mean, you're not gonna pick up every book and read the flap copy for every novel. You really are gonna have to be cute. I have the book here, which is why I keep, like, looking off.

Traci Thomas 40:11

I have my two over there.

Adrienne Thurman 40:13

But, yeah, yeah, it really is just like, how quickly can we cue you into what you're getting?

Traci Thomas 40:19

Um, is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was,

Adrienne Thurman 40:23

I think initially, I spent a little bit more time with Kaia before she went home. I always, it's always interesting because, like, especially for romance, you like, kind of have to, like, hit the ground running. And, you know, we want to meet the love interest. We want to, you know, get to that inciting incident. And so I feel like that beginning is always a balance of, like, how much to give and how quick to move. So there were some, like, some moments with her at home that I or before she came home, that I thought were fun and helped, kind of like, set an established character. I Yeah. I feel like, if I could maybe add something now, it would be like, potentially an epilogue, because I feel like people are just like hungry for it, but for my own, for my for my own self and like my own needs, like what I wanted the story to be. I feel like we really got what I wanted in there.

Traci Thomas 41:21

how do you write? How many hours a day, how often music or no in the home, out of the home, snacks, beverage rituals?

Adrienne Thurman 41:28

Yeah, I started writing when my daughter was tiny, and so I feel like, between writing with a baby and like those, like nap hours and like before she woke up and after bedtime, and then going through like, writing through a separation, writing through a divorce, like, I've been writing under duress for as long as I've been writing. And so I don't like, I aspire to have like, a system. You know, I write at my dining table, and I write like, if I if it's a school day, I'll write like, from drop off to pick up, and, you know, if it's if she's with her dad, then I'll just write, like, straight through 13 hours a day. So I'm still kind of in that stage where she's, like, young enough to where it's like, really just like, you write where you like, for as long as you can, when you can, where you can. But that said, I really can't have like, any distractions. And so it has to be, like, focused writing time. It can't be like, like, some people will write like, when they're like, on the bleachers at like, a, you know, practice or something. I can't do that. I have to, like, go sit in my car and just like, type away, like a little creep.

Traci Thomas 42:33

What about snacks and beverages?

Adrienne Thurman 42:35

Snacks depend on the writing stage. So like, if I am really in the thick of it. It has to be like, something I can pop into my mouth with, like, and then be back. My hands can be free again. And then, like, whenever I'm feeling like, really good, like, it's like, basically we're at like, a read through stage that I can like, grab, like a popsicle or something. And I feel like that's just like me saying, like, I don't even need my hands. But yeah, for the most part, I keep my snacks away from me, because I get up and down so many times as I write. And I feel like I like, need those steps to, like, marinate or play a little bit. And so I like, the the trips over to the cabinet are like, you know, brainstorming sessions

Traci Thomas 43:17

Yeah, what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Adrienne Thurman 43:23

Well, I spell it correctly, because I always say B, E, A utiful every single time I write beautiful, B, E, A beautiful. I think I, like, learned it that way, and that always sticks. I mean, gosh, honestly, there's so many, especially like, as you get deeper into, like, revisions and drafting, and your brain just turns to absolute mush. I'm like, How do you spell Berry? So, yeah, I would say beautiful. I always have to cheat with my little with my little sounds, but at a certain point when my brain is just hollow and wrung out, then all of the words

Traci Thomas 43:52

Yeah for people who love this book, what else would you recommend to them that's in conversation with what you've done?

Adrienne Thurman 44:01

I love Bolu Babalola. Do you know her? She's like, a British Nigerian. Yeah, she's honey and spice and then sweet heat. Yeah, no. It was like, just perfect. But she is like, Nigerian and British and so it's very like, dialog heavy and just really smart and quick and witty. I love her. I think her characters are also really real and flawed and messy and super fun. Talia Hibbert, I love as well. I think she writes again. I think it's just that, like, sort of like, dry humor and wit that I really am kind of, like always drawn toward, yeah, so I love her as well. Nikki Payne, who I mentioned earlier, she's so smart and like her books are always really accessible, like you don't feel like you're learning as you're reading. But. She has, like, just such great commentary on the world at large, and like, womanhood and blackness and race, and it's like, just, she has a lot to say that's, like, really important, but it's like, always wrapped up in these just, like, really fun, sexy romances. I'm trying to think there's like, always, like the big hitters, like, you know, Kennedy and Tia and and Jasmine. But I feel like a lot of there's, like, just, there's, there's so much good stuff. Like black romance is really just like we are being absolutely fed.

Traci Thomas 45:32

Yeah, it's definitely a moment we're having.

Adrienne Thurman 45:34

Yeah, in the best way, a moment, for sure.

Traci Thomas 45:36

What about when you're writing romance? Can you read romance?

Adrienne Thurman 45:41

I can read before I start drafting, and then I usually will switch to something else. And so, like, right now I'm working on revisions for Book Two, and I'm listening not, I can't, like, read, like, with my eyes, but so I'm reading audio books of, like, thrillers. So it's like, I just, I like to have, like, a different flavor. So it feels like it's two different sides of my brain. And also it just is like a reminder of like, because there are, there are such like, discrete rules for the genre and for like conventions. So it's nice to like be reminded that you can like play a little bit, or like break out in ways that other genres do. So yeah, so I don't tend to write, to read in the same genre that I'm writing. I just, I don't want it to ever feel like too familiar or too close to something else.

Traci Thomas 46:26

Yeah. I've heard that from so many writers of like, when you they actually are writing they have to be

Adrienne Thurman 46:26

It's hard, because it really, it just like, it like gets in your head, so it's like, could be completely unconscious, and you're like, Wait, that doesn't sound like me. That was Tia or something.

Traci Thomas 46:38

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even Jasmine Ward said that she was like, I read romance. She loves romance. She loves genre She was like, Yeah, I'm writing literary fiction. I have to be reading genre fiction

Adrienne Thurman 46:50

It really is just like a palette cleanser in like, different ways. Like, it's just like the inverse.

Traci Thomas 46:56

Okay last question, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Adrienne Thurman 47:03

Um, I think it would be my grandmother. She was a writer, and she passed away, like, kind of like, right at the start of this process for me. But I don't think I realized until, like, she was very close to the end how formative writing was for her. And I think she similarly like to how I was speaking to earlier, kind of wanting something that was mine. I think she took a lot of pride in it after having, like, given of herself for so many decades of her life. So like, one of our last our last moments together, was me, just like reading her, her own writing until like, two or three in the morning, and she just wanted to hear it all, and she wanted to hear the commentary and the feedback she got and the critiques. And so I think it's just like she really like got so like took so much of her identity back in her writing. And so I would love to for her to know that you know that we have that in common now, even though she's gone. But so that would be, that would be an easy one for me, an easy pick.

Traci Thomas 48:03

That's so beautiful. I love the Yeah, she wanted at the end of her life.

Adrienne Thurman 48:06

Yeah, I know. Read me not photo albums. Don't talk about my family. Just like I want to. I want to, like, let's like, walk me through the different stages of my life in my own words.

Traci Thomas 48:17

I love that so much. Yeah, all right, everybody you can get this book, don't tell me how it ends. Now, wherever you get your books, I listen to some of the audiobooks. She does a great job. She's so great. Yeah, she's really good. So if you're an audiobook person, it was the first time I ever listened to a romance on audio.

Adrienne Thurman 48:39

Oh, yeah, I love romance on audio.

Traci Thomas 48:41

I usually can't do fiction period on audio. It has to be first person, voicey

Adrienne Thurman 48:52

Like a podcast, like you're talking to your friend or something.

Traci Thomas 48:55

That has to be like a memoir, you know, like I can't do I've recently dabbled a teeny tiny bit. But again, it has to be that really strong first person voice, like he said, he said, she said, I'm like, Oh no, no, I lost it. Who's talking?

Adrienne Thurman 49:10

I don't even know who he is. I'm getting groceries.

Traci Thomas 49:12

But she did a really good job. There's even a part where, like, the character didn't know who was talking at first, but I recognize the voice that she was using for the character.

Adrienne Thurman 49:25

No, she's really good. I love audio.

Traci Thomas 49:27

You can't tell, but it's Ro You can't see him, but it's him.

Adrienne Thurman 49:30

He's back there, turn around girl. No, she's great.

Traci Thomas 49:33

I love that. Well, yeah, thank you so much, Adrienne, thank you for coming on the show and for giving us our official first Sister, Sister combination. Finally. It only took five years, but we finally done it in eight years of the show

Adrienne Thurman 49:49

Clearly you knew that was coming, and that was like you were just laying the ground.

Traci Thomas 49:52

I mean, you hadn't even started writing this book when I had Nicole on.

Adrienne Thurman 49:56

I hadn't started writing anything at all

Traci Thomas 49:58

And I still taught spin. Life comes at you fast. Thank you so much. Everybody can get the book wherever you get your books, and we will see you in the stacks. Thank you all so much for listening, and thank you again to Adrienne Thurman for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Nicole Thurman for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for April is room swept home by rameca Bingham rischer. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, April 29 with Mahogany Brown. If you love the stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com Please make sure that wherever you are listening to the stacks right now, you are subscribed. If you are listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, will you leave us a little review that tells folks what they can expect to hear on this podcast and why you love it. For more from the stacks, follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads and now we're on YouTube, and check out our website, at the stacks podcast.com this episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support is provided by Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from tagirijus. The stacks is created and produced by me. Traci Thomas.

Traci Thomas
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