Ep. 427 I Love Books So Much with Mary H. K. Choi

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re joined by best-selling author Mary H.K. Choi to discuss her newest novel, Pool House. Set against the backdrop of Hollywood, this book explores the complex relationship between Stevie and her mother, Moon, as they share their glass-walled pool house when financial struggles force them to rent out their home. We chat about what it’s like publishing a book in today’s literary landscape, her very specific snack and beverage lineup, and her journey into adult novels after establishing a YA career.

The Stacks Book Club pick for June is The Alchemist by Paolo Coelho. We’ll be discussing the book with Mary H.K. Choi on Wednesday, June 24th.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Mary H.K. Choi 0:00

Just to be chaotic, I think if you haven't had a book out since before Covid, and you do not, hell, you're a debut.

Traci Thomas 0:06

So do you think Tayari Jones is a debut?

Mary H.K. Choi 0:10

Yeah, and it's so impressive.

Traci Thomas 0:11

It's so impressive when she's done with Kin for a debut, it's incredible.

Mary H.K. Choi 0:16

No, I mean, like, I think the part that I'm really just trying to say, any book coming out right now feels like a subversion and a weird kind of insurrection against the tide of what is happening to the attention economy. And that part feels wild, like when I look around, I'm like, books are so trending, however, nobody really wants new books, and nobody really wants books by, like, authors.

Traci Thomas 0:45

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by best-selling author Mary H. K. Choi. She's here to discuss her first adult novel, Pool House, set against the backdrop of Hollywood, this book explores the complex relationship between Stevie and her mother, Moon, as they move into their glass-walled pool house when financial struggles force them to rent out their home. Today, Mary and I talk about writing a book in today's attention economy. We talk about the differences between YA and adult literary spaces, and Mary shares one of the best answers to the reading snacks question we have ever had on the podcast. Get excited, people. Our book club pick for June is The Alchemist by Paolo Coelho, and we'll discuss the book with Mary H.K. Choi on Wednesday, June 24. Everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks is linked in our show notes, and if you like this podcast, if you want more of it, if you want bookish content, if you want a readerly community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter, Unstacked, on Substack. At each place, you're going to get different perks, things like our bonus episode, access to the Discord, monthly book club conversations, my nonfiction reading guide, it's all sorts of stuff, and when you join, you make it possible for me to make this podcast. So, head to patreon.com/the Stacks to join the Stacks pack, and you can subscribe to my newsletter at Traci Thomas dot sub stack.com All right, now it is time for my conversation with Mary H K Choi. All right, everybody. This is a day I've been waiting for. I finally get to have one of my favorite people, one of the coolest people I know. Even though she'll say she's not cool, but don't listen to her, she doesn't know anything. It is Mary HK Choi, back in the stacks. Welcome back, Mary.

Mary H.K. Choi 2:40

Yay, I'm so happy. Like, I love that we're talking, because obviously I'm obsessed with you, but I'm also just like so happy because this means I'm finally done with the book, which is thrilling!

Traci Thomas 2:50

Okay, so the book is called Pool House. Here it is. It's got a perfect cover. You are the queen of a good cover. You've had four great covers.

Mary H.K. Choi 3:00

Thank you. Thank you. I'll take that.

Traci Thomas 3:02

Do you weigh in?

Mary H.K. Choi 3:04

I do weigh in. I'm a big weigher inner, and I learned, actually, that in YA, some people don't weigh in, some people do. I weighed in a lot, like I sent, like, drawings and, like, signage, and, like, vibes, and, like, playlists, and, like, you know, like all of these, like, different artists, and things like that. And for this one I also weighed in, but apparently it's less - dare I say - traditional to weigh in in the adult world.

Traci Thomas 3:28

I think it just depends on like how involved in the publishing world you are, like if you kind of like have the chops, you can weigh in, but if you're like a debut author, I feel like they're a little bit more like, mm mm

Mary H.K. Choi 3:43

well, I actually think I've spoken to other authors, and apparently some people prefer not to weigh in, which is unusual, but also, like, I don't know your, I don't know your process, I don't know, you know, not my rodeo, not my clowns, not my anything, but like, I think it's like, I think it really depends on like the publisher and the relationship and the vibes, and so, and they were very, very nice. They were very patient, but I do know that when I was like, "Hey, can I just talk to your art director real quick? They were like, "No" or they were like, "No, not like no, no, but like confused, "Oh, this is not.. this is not something that happens." But they, everyone was so nice that everyone was like, so you know, and these guys are pros, like they get what they're doing. I did open the conversation with like, so I'm thinking kind of like, well, how much is it to clear a Hockney?

Traci Thomas 4:38

I'm sure they love that as a starting place,

Mary H.K. Choi 4:40

you know, like, I like to open big, I like to open emphatic. No, I, because I also just wondered, I was just like, it's books, like, how many? How many

Traci Thomas 4:47

did they give you an answer?

Mary H.K. Choi 4:48

No, they didn't, but they were so.. but even as, like, a sort of, like, you know, like the first signal, like, how do they take something like this? They were so, so gracious. like they didn't like just yell at me, being like

Traci Thomas 5:03

They were just like, 'get out, this is why we don't want authors in these fucking meetings.

Mary H.K. Choi 5:07

This is why you guys are forbidden. This is for a book. No, they were very, very patient and gracious, and we kind of like worked from there. And I did end up speaking with the art director, who was wonderful and has done so many iconic book covers, and so and so, at that point it was much more that I had a lot of opinions about, you know, just like small things, like something as simple as I think that in a sans-serif font, like Pool House, like on the spine, I was just like, I think having my full name on there is weird, like, can we just have choice, like, yeah, so like just little tweaks like that, even something like, you know, the the UK edition, they didn't have the font that we wanted, and so they were like, this one's close, and I was like, I'm gonna need you to like figure out the tracking a little bit on these. It was just, I'm annoying, and everyone was so nice. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 5:55

I love it. You're just like so detail oriented, and I want to talk about that, but first, but first we jumped into the cover, but we didn't. You got to tell people a little bit about yourself. I actually don't know the answer to this question, which is like, what is your story with books? How did you come to being a writer of novels? I know that you were a journalist, like, can you give us just like a little backstory? Where are you from? What do you, what do you remember reading as a kid? Like, bring us up to date.

Mary H.K. Choi 6:24

Okay, okay. Well, first of all, I'm old as hell, so I'm not gonna start at the very, very beginning.

Traci Thomas 6:31

First, there was light,

Mary H.K. Choi 6:33

And then he said it was good. No, I mean, basically it's like I was never the person who loved writing, that was never ever my story, like I have always loved reading, because mostly I love disassociating, and I love compartmentalizing. I love leaving my body for dead, as I just like traips off into a fantasy land. So, like, that's been a big part of my life, just reading, reading, reading, and it's like everything from like Sweet Valley High to like VC Andrews to like random books like Adrian Mole or like Flossy Tea Cakes for a Coat, like all these very random things, and I enjoyed them very much. But I didn't like writing, it was tedious. I was always a person. If there was a written assignment, I was just like, like, why, why would anybody? This seems like really unnecessarily cruel, but then I went to school for fashion, but I'd always also loved magazines, and so I was just like, I will move to New York, and I will go into magazines, except, you know, no one wanted me, because I was done with school, I'd gone to school for retail and merchandising, basically like textiles and fashion, and by the time I'd moved to New York, it was, it was to be like part of the corporate program at Saks to learn how to be a buyer, but I just, something about, I was just like, I don't think this is it for me, and then I started interning at a graffiti magazine out of Red Hook, Brooklyn, like 23 years ago, 22 years ago, a long, long time ago, and that's where I first started writing, and I really loved it, but I never, I never imagined myself, because I never knew any authors growing up like the sort of author that I looked at growing up was like Judy Blume, or like, you know, Amy Tan, and even those particular authors, it was like that, just had nothing to do with me. It was like, if they were like mer people, and I was like, I love these mer people, yeah, I love you, mer person, but it was like, I didn't think that I would, like, I don't know, like, swim to Atlantis and like become a merperson

Traci Thomas 8:40

become a mer person, and now, like, you're fully merred

Mary H.K. Choi 8:43

I'm so mer, and it's like each step feels like the kind of sort of benevolence, like almost a conspiracy, because, like, I'm so grateful that I learned how to write with magazines, and then I launched a magazine, and that was really fun, and then I learned how to write there, and then you know, someone asked me, an agent asked me, and I had a different agent, but this agent was like, I love your work, would you ever write fiction? And I already had an entire book by then.

Traci Thomas 9:12

Oh, you did.

Mary H.K. Choi 9:13

I had written, I mean, I think the story is so true for a lot of people, like some people are like, I'll write a book, and then they do, and then it just, they're just kind of like, okay, what now? And so that's

Traci Thomas 9:24

the thought of just like writing. I mean, I am a person who truly hates writing, unlike you, who fake hates writing, but does it for your job? I guess I do do it for my job, but I really hate it. I hate every moment of writing. I hate every part of writing. I even hate having written. I hate that I've wasted my time writing, because a lot of writers like, "Oh, I hate writing, but I love having written. No, I also hate and resent the time after when I'm done having written, and I'm like, "I just fucking spent all this time writing this stupid thing, and I could have just fucking said it once and been done, and instead I have to go back and, like, then, like, edit it, and like.. Come back to it another day, like,

Mary H.K. Choi 10:02

yeah, but here's what you do, like, and I know this about you: you're competitive, you like to get your point across, you like your point to be very nuanced, and you want complete unilateral total autonomy over the way you said it and what you intended, and so these are all true for me too. I don't necessarily like writing either, I don't necessarily even love having written, you know that, like, yeah, you know, this entire process, like, at one point my partner was like, at what point do we celebrate, and I was like, get out, you know what I mean, where it's like you're like, the whole thing is gruesome, yeah, and but I also think there are certain things that I want to say, and this is exactly, precisely the way I want to say it, and so unfortunately, like, this is the position I'm in, like, I'm not one of these people who are like super boo-woo about it, like, I do think it's magical, I do think transmissions come in, and sometimes I'm like, that was mysterious, but it's like, I don't love that much of this entire thing, like, even promoting it,

Traci Thomas 10:58

I'm like, I feel like that part seems like it sucks, that's the part I would like. I would love a book tour. Can I just actually, can I just go on book tour for you? And I'll be like, oh yes, I just love like writing, and you know

Mary H.K. Choi 11:13

But you know like, you're like an actor, though. You're like, you're a thespian, so like, I would gladly ventriloquize you on tour for me, and I would just like, you could wear an ear wig, and I just pipe it in chat.

Traci Thomas 11:25

Could I actually wear like a merry wig, like have like my like long straight black hair, and like do like a full, and like wear like cool clothes, like you.

Mary H.K. Choi 11:33

I will do your eyeliner every night.

Traci Thomas 11:37

See, this is a dream. I don't want to be an author, I want to go on book tour, but I, because I just like people, and I like talking about books

Mary H.K. Choi 11:45

I love, I love people too, and I love talking about books too. And, like, the thing I love about being on tour, the one part I like is that even the person who is just so inconvenienced to come see me, because they enjoy my writing, there is something where we're kind of like, you know, like game recognized game, where, like, I know they don't want to be outside of their house either.

Traci Thomas 12:03

Yeah,

Mary H.K. Choi 12:05

and they're like in my life, looking a little surly, and I'm like, and like, they, they're wearing their eyeliner, I'm wearing my eyeliner, and they rock up, and we're just kind of like, all right, bed, like, nobody likes make eye contact too hard, but like, this is nice, and so that's that's like really beautiful, and, like, you know, like, I don't write books that are just like for everybody, like it's like it's for a specific type of person.

Traci Thomas 12:29

Well, what, that's what I think so interesting about you, because I do know that, and I also feel like if someone had told me, like, okay, Mary writes books for a certain kind of person, I never would have thought that I was your kind of person on paper, but I am like, I love your books, and I love your writing, but I feel like I don't know, I think I have like a complex, because I think you're so cool, and I'm like, oh, Mary's like too cool.

Mary H.K. Choi 12:53

The thing that I think a lot of people conflate blessedly, and I think this is like really, really, I'm lucky about this, is like, I think people are reading my rampant autism as like being cool, like I'm just sure being like not making eye contact, because like it's like punishing to me, where I'm just like, oh, I'm gonna die if like I'm gonna self immolate from self consciousness, and meanwhile people are like, oh, she's so aloof, I'll take it, but usually I'm just squirming, is what's happening

Traci Thomas 13:30

It doesn't come off that way at all,

Mary H.K. Choi 13:31

that's so nice,

Traci Thomas 13:32

it comes off very cool. Also, you dress cool, and like, and like, you talk about apples, you know, like, like, like, like being a person who's just like, ya know, my content is just gonna be like raiding apples on Instagram stories, like you have to have a level of like coolness to do that, because like a fucking herb could do that, and it would be just like, ew, why are they doing fruit?

Mary H.K. Choi 13:55

But that's the thing, what is dead ass more autistic than a person rating apples, where I'm like, this is my special interest,

Traci Thomas 14:04

I love it, it's cool. Being autistic is cool, like, there, those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Mary H.K. Choi 14:10

This is 100% what I'm saying. However, not every cool person is autistic, but, blessedly, in my circumstance, like, I happen to be autistic, and people find that legible as a kind of cool, which is so nice.

Traci Thomas 14:24

I wonder, how many other people I think are cool are autistic.

Mary H.K. Choi 14:27

Well, you know, my thing is just like telling people they're autistic, which people, I heard that's kind of an anti-social quality, but I'm sometimes like, you know, we kind of flock together, like

Traci Thomas 14:37

interesting.

Mary H.K. Choi 14:38

So, like, neurodivergent people really like attract other neurodivergent people, and so sometimes I'm like, it will open a conversation, like I'm not saying you're autistic, but if you struggle with socks and shoes, this is what I would recommend for you, and then I'll like literally like send them an entire like mood board of like I think these are the shoes that would look amazing on you.

Traci Thomas 14:58

Oh my god, oh. Okay, okay. I'm obsessed with this. You did float.. wait, you on social media floated two people, two characters that you thought were autistic. One was Zendaya in the drama, and who was the other one? Because I disagreed with the other one.

Mary H.K. Choi 15:11

Oh, the other one was the husband in Belle Burden's Strangers.

Traci Thomas 15:15

Oh yeah, I don't agree with that.

Mary H.K. Choi 15:16

He seems so autistic.

Traci Thomas 15:17

No, he just seems like a fucking asshole.

Mary H.K. Choi 15:19

You know what? I don't think that book lacks for assholes.

Traci Thomas 15:22

No, I think he just sucked. Like, I don't.. I don't think that he's autistic.

Mary H.K. Choi 15:28

I think he sucks, but there's something about the definitive way his, like, mind just shut down.

Traci Thomas 15:32

I see. I see that as narcissistic. I would have gone full narcissist on this. We can, we can debrief on this offline, because I have more thoughts that I don't want to say into a microphone, but I do want to tell you, because it's pertinent.

Mary H.K. Choi 15:44

I feel like we also already got canceled, like, three times.

Traci Thomas 15:47

We did, we did, and I just want to say that, like, Mary, it was Mary was leading this. Okay, I just did responding, that's my job. I just respond to other people. Please don't yell at me, okay? This is the big question, though, which I literally, it's taken me 15 minutes to get to. We're gonna be so fucked. Is that this is your first adult book?

Traci Thomas 16:09

It is. I'm a debut. I'm de.. I'm debuting.

Traci Thomas 16:11

Okay, you're not a debut. Do you know that I have like truly violent opinions about debut when people use it when they've written three other books.

Mary H.K. Choi 16:21

What if it's pronounced de-boo? No, that's fine. Like people have told me I'm a debut,

Traci Thomas 16:26

and I hate those people. I don't believe it. I, this is this is my, this is my stance. Okay. Debut means first book. Period. Exclamation point. Now, if, if, if you self-published a book, one book before, and you're traditionally publishing a book as your second book, I will give you debut if you really absolutely must say that you wrote a short story collection, and so it's your debut novel, fine, but if you have written a novel, a non-fiction book, 17 ya books, and now this is your debut short story collection. It's not a fucking debut. You have 27 books in the bank. You are just writing a short story collection for the first time. But to me, I feel like debut means like we're supposed to coalesce around you and respond to your work as like a person who has not done this before, and therefore there's like a kind of way that I read a debut that I do not read a book from someone who's written a lot of books.

Mary H.K. Choi 17:25

Yes, and like I don't disagree with you. However, the one thing I will say is that, like, literary fiction or adult fiction does feel so different anyway, and I can make that distinction, and without using the word debut,

Traci Thomas 17:40

this is your debut adult novel.

Mary H.K. Choi 17:42

This is my debut adult novel,

Traci Thomas 17:43

and I

Traci Thomas 17:44

feel like that is allowed because it is your first adult novel. But you're a writer, you've written great books. We've done them on book club, like you are Mary H K Choi. You're not a fucking debut, no shade to debuts. We love them. Everyone starts somewhere.

Mary H.K. Choi 17:58

We do love debuts. I think just to be chaotic, I think. If you haven't had a book out since before Covid, and you do not, hell, you're a debut. It starts

Traci Thomas 18:06

So do you think Tiari Jones is a debut?

Mary H.K. Choi 18:10

Yeah, and it's so impressive.

Traci Thomas 18:11

It's so impressive what she's done with Kin.

Mary H.K. Choi 18:15

Did anyone see that coming?

Traci Thomas 18:17

Not a chance. And it's good for a debut. It's incredible.

Mary H.K. Choi 18:22

No, I mean, like, I think the part that I'm really just trying to say is, and I do agree with you, there's so much like smoke and mirrors and tricks and stuff to make something a little more shiny than the other thing, and we're all supposed to believe that, like, this thing is as shiny as that thing. I don't really care about that. What I will say in this moment, and I know that you've, like, you've heard this is that any book coming out right now feels like a subversion and a weird kind of insurrection against the tide of what is happening to the attention economy. What is happening in this five second pivot to video moment, and that part feels wild. Like when I look around, I'm like, books are so trending, however, nobody really wants new books, and nobody really wants books by, like, authors.

Traci Thomas 19:04

Yeah. No, I.. so this I agree with. I don't think you're a debut. What I think is exciting and shiny about you is that you are back. The return of Mary H.K. Choi to me is more exciting than Mary H.K. Choi's debut. Do you know what I mean?

Mary H.K. Choi 19:19

100%

Traci Thomas 19:20

And I agree with you with the attention economy, and I'm suffering from it in a really serious way, like I am struggling to read these days, like aggressively, so, and I am struggling with the way that the book space has changed so much in the last few years, where there's a lot of people, and this is not, I'm not denigrating these people at all, but there's a lot of people who are not authors, who people who write, people who are writing books, who feel entitled to the spaces that readers have created for supporting books and authors, and people who are like, oh, I'm a this, that, this, and that, and now I'm an author, and you need to support me, and like that whole thing has been. Very, like a struggle for me, so I'm always really excited to have someone who's like, this is my vocation, I write books, this is what I do, this is who I am, because there's a different level of like care and respect for books and reading that I really appreciate.

Mary H.K. Choi 20:13

Yeah, but and I think that sort of delineation, or that schism, is terror. It is terrifying to be an author

Traci Thomas 20:20

like a career author,

Mary H.K. Choi 20:22

I had this moment, like, I had a point at which, like, a few years ago, I was like, "Oh, they're all teachers, not to say that teachers are out here making a living, but I was just like, "There is, like, there are like two vocations kind of equal one, and I was like, "I think I'm missing the other one, because, like, every, like, quarter I almost die of starvation,

Traci Thomas 20:40

because, oh, because you're not also a teacher,

Mary H.K. Choi 20:42

I'm not also having the stability of XYZ, or like a partner in finance, or like independent wealth, or whatever,

Traci Thomas 20:48

you're not married to Belle Burden's ex-husband,

Mary H.K. Choi 20:51

which, you know, like, I could have been

Traci Thomas 20:53

Could've been you

Mary H.K. Choi 20:54

I don't know, but, like, I say this to say that, like, and also we have this like amazing sort of attention economy thing, this like viral pastry or death thing, where it's like you either sell, you know, 150,000 copies, and you just live on the New York Times bestseller list, or you have a franchise, so you're like, I'm position 1357, me personally, right, and like, so all of these things are changing the landscape, and it's been really interesting to see. It's also incredibly discouraging. Like, I've had different moments during this sort of tour, in this release, where I'm like, do I just need, like, $100,000 earmarked to pay all of these people out of pocket in order to make enough noise that people will start to care, because all of these things are in place that have nothing to do with the book, and so you know, I think it's this thing of like, and also, but there is an argument to be made for, like, does it, is does the rising tide raise all ships, boats bad at maritime analogies, and I say that to say that even performative readers, like people who love book esthetic, but literally don't fucking read.

Traci Thomas 22:04

Yeah,

Mary H.K. Choi 22:05

like on one hand it's so easy to like slander them, or like again, like you said, denigrate them or not denigrate them, or whatever. But like at a certain point, I'm just like, okay, like this isn't the worst.

Traci Thomas 22:16

Yeah, I don't know. I think it remains to be seen, honestly. Like, I feel like we're in this shift, and it's hard. I'm like trying to gage things in real time, like notice the way that things have changed, and also I'm like, and I'm aging out, like I'm getting old, and I feel like the kids are coming in, and like it's a different, they want a different thing, which, like, makes sense. Yeah, which totally makes sense, but it's hard for me to sort of gage like what is really happening, and like how does a book take off, and like what does it mean to be like a book of the moment, because you're right, a lot of people just want to read old stuff, which honestly, like, if I, when I didn't have this job, I read old stuff, like there's lots of good old stuff.

Mary H.K. Choi 23:02

Oh, yeah, me too. Hello, stuff, or even like just the author that you missed that you kind of like let them settle, and you're like, no, I have four of their books. And meanwhile, they're like, pre-orders are very important

Traci Thomas 23:16

Yeah, you're like, and I still like, I know, like, personal effort. I'm like, I'm still working my way through, babe. You wrote a book a year for 40 years, like can you take a break so that I could read something else, and also a lot of people only read a few books a year. And that's another piece of it

Mary H.K. Choi 23:30

and that's like kind of okay too. Yeah, I mean, like, none of this is a moral issue. I know, I think what we're saying here is that, like, I, for some reason, once again did, did, did one, so like, here we are.

Traci Thomas 23:45

Okay, and so what? What for you was the biggest, like, it could be a good or a bad, it could be a hard or an easy be like, what was the biggest sort of shock of going from YA to adult? What surprised you?

Mary H.K. Choi 23:59

I think the timeline and the way momentum feels like, so, and actually I'm so grateful because I took to like Instagram and like book threads to be like what do I need to know, and people very like unanimously and graciously were like, here's the thing about you know, teen books, like if you're doing teen books, like you will get a lot of bulk orders at the at the front end, like, so, like, months before your book even comes out, you'll get libraries, you'll get Target, you'll get, like, Walmart, all of these accounts that will buy a bunch of books in the beginning. When you talk about an adult book, it's usually a person's, like, you know, it's like kind of like when you're like, do I need almond toe shaped ballet flats, and then you maybe like harvest them in the middle of the night, or you don't, or you buy like your fourth jelly bra off TikTok. It's like, so much of it is like impulse purchase, and so like you're either in a point of this point of purchase display at a place, and they'll pick you up, or they like the way your cover looks, and they'll pick you. Up, but it's very like it, that sort of discovery isn't sort of time specific, and it certainly doesn't have all these like built-in indicators for how well a book is doing or how anticipated it is

Traci Thomas 25:12

That makes sense.

Mary H.K. Choi 25:13

It's like a lot more whim-based in a way that, like, you're.. I'm probably not going to see like the sort of momentum of me going out in these streets, screaming, like my book is coming out until the week of release, if not a few weeks after

Traci Thomas 25:28

Yeah, that makes so much sense, because there isn't like a pre-order, I don't know, community in the same way.

Mary H.K. Choi 25:36

Yeah,

Traci Thomas 25:36

like with like kids' books, it's like we're gonna get it into these schools, so we order it, we're gonna get it into these places, and so it happened in a like more timely fashion, whereas with an adult book it like relies more on word of mouth vibes, like just like people going into a bookstore and getting one here and one there,

Mary H.K. Choi 25:53

and there's so many adult books, I mean you have non fiction and fiction, and then you have self help or whatever, but largely it's like any book, so like I'm going up against like romantasy, which as a category it's just like it's a juggernaut, it's like unstoppable, and so like my little book about like you know these weird LA afternoons is going against like sweeping title like escapism, and that's just what what the situation is.

Traci Thomas 26:20

Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you worry about your kid readers who are growing up, who are still kids reading your book? Because there's lots of sex in this book,

Mary H.K. Choi 26:29

there's so much sex in this book, but I don't worry about it, because they're all old now, like they have, like, come out and been like, oh my god, I read this in high school, but not only am I not in college, I'm like in my early 20s,

Traci Thomas 26:41

but what about the people who are reading you as kids now? Like, they're gonna be like, 'Oh, this looks nice, it's got like a painted cover, and then it's like, 'Here we go. Like, do you care? I mean, I know the kids are reading about sex, like I'm not really worried about on a puritanical basis, but like, is there any conversation of, like, what if a mom comes and yells at you or something?

Mary H.K. Choi 26:58

I mean, the moms have been coming to yell at me for so much the entirety of my career, because I'm not YA either. I've never not had sex in every single write my book.

Traci Thomas 27:07

That's right, that's right. I've read them all. You're right now that I said that, I'm like, yes, but what stands out in my mind in all of your books, though, is the snacks. Thank you for your service as a people of the snack.

Mary H.K. Choi 27:19

I, you know, I love snacks deeply. It's like it's like my one most vital and important, and like, most like compelling calling. It's like I'm always assessed with snacks. The first thing I do in any place that I go to is go to a grocery store, or like a convenience store, or liquor store, deli, any bodega situation. I like to see the snack terrain of every town, and so that is like a terroir that is important to me, and so to have a kind of like sense of space, I think food and the way we graze is hugely important.

Traci Thomas 27:52

I want to, I'm going to call you something, I'm going to give you a title.

Mary H.K. Choi 27:56

Okay,

Traci Thomas 27:57

after reading this book, now I've read all four, I'm going to say that you're one of our great maximalist writers.

Mary H.K. Choi 28:03

Oh my god

Traci Thomas 28:03

I think this is true. I think this is true about you. I'm gonna say right now, my two go-to maximalists - this is just my personal taste - are you and Kylie Reid

Mary H.K. Choi 28:16

Oh, great.

Traci Thomas 28:18

I don't know if you read Come and Get It

Mary H.K. Choi 28:23

I have read Come and Get It, and I read her first, such a fun age, I've read both. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 28:28

So I feel like in Come and Get It, she really flexes her maximalist skills, like there's so much just like description, and like really hyper specific description of like people, objects in your books it's like food, it's fashion, it's just like I don't know, there's a way that you both like render people on the page where you really just like tell us every single thing we absolutely need to know to get this person like very clearly in our brain, because you know some writers will be like oh you know I don't say anything, I'll just be oh he wore Nikes and it's like sure but like a lot of people wear Nikes, but you're gonna tell me, like, how the Nikes are tied, and exactly what model they are, and, like, if there's a little bit of dirt on the toe, or if they're pristine, and then I'm like, oh, okay, I know exactly who that man is, and I feel like a lot of people can't do that in a way that's fun, they do it in a way that's either like this is a high school writing assignment or they don't do enough, and I feel like you and Kylie are great maximalists. So that's what I think.

Mary H.K. Choi 29:28

Well, first of all, I know that you only say what you mean, and so it shows a lot to me.

Traci Thomas 29:32

It's very true. I've been texting people about it. I've been like, is Mary one of our great maximalists?

Mary H.K. Choi 29:37

That's well, actually, you know, first of all, I'll just take the take the compliment, and say that, like, I, that's really meaningful to me, because my living, like, wakeful life is basically drinking from a fire hose, in terms of, like, how much information everybody gives me at any point, like, like, I just, I get that much information from people, like, I end up just cold reading. People based on, yeah, their shoes, their hair, the way, whether they talk over me or not, like how they interact with other people, like the break of their pants, like you know what kind of wash their denim is, like what their wallet looks like,

Traci Thomas 30:14

yeah,

Mary H.K. Choi 30:14

like just all of that is like I put it somewhere, and so the fact that I can like then deploy it somewhere in a book is like I think that this is why I'm basically an earthworm, I'm just like eating dirt and pooping dirt and just like getting all this information and putting it somewhere else, but you know, I also, I appreciate specificity, like I, I love books so much, I don't think books are just like IP for like movies or TV shows, or whatever, like I think books themselves, you can do so much with time. and you can, like, I love that you can just move the eye of the camera, or like have the paint brush stroke be so specific in books. But this is also to say, I'm not a lot of people's favorite, like some people love this, and some people hate this, and I also think that's like a huge compliment, like, you fuck with me if you fuck with me, and that's right.

Traci Thomas 31:04

And I think, like, right now, I mean, one of the first things I noticed about your book, because I've been on, like, sort of this new tirade against first person, is that your book is not in first person, and I was like, oh, a thrill and a joy, because there's so much first person, and I think the other thing that goes hand in hand with that is a lot of people are writing like sparser, which I generally really like, like I, if it were up to me, if I was gonna have mediocre sparse or mediocre maximalist, I'm gonna take mediocre sparse every time, but good maximalist is really cool, like it's like a fun thing, and I don't feel like a lot of people are doing it these days.

Mary H.K. Choi 31:40

Well, thank you so much, but yeah, I mean, same, same, though. Like, I, I'm jealous of people who can be like, who have brevity and elegance. Like, there are people who can closely observe with minimum, minimum words. I think Katie Kitamura is one of these people, and, like, like, I think that that's like, there's a precision in that that I really, really enjoy, but, but it's not what I do. Yeah, and it's also not how I see the world, but you know, I texted you at some point when I sent you this book, where it's like, I don't know if you're not, if you're gonna hate this book. Like, what if you hate this book?

Traci Thomas 32:13

Why did you think I was gonna hate it?

Mary H.K. Choi 32:14

I think it was just like, I don't know. I think my fear was that you don't suffer fools, and so, like, I wondered if you thought this was, like, indulgent in the, in a way. So, the fact that you're like, you've actually nailed the maximalism.

Traci Thomas 32:28

I do think it's indulgent,

Mary H.K. Choi 32:31

but that is reassuring,

Traci Thomas 32:32

not in, like, a not.. I do think it's indulgent, and you're right, it isn't something that I would normally like, like, because I guess we should tell people what the book is about like 30 minutes in. I'll tell you guys quickly what the book is about. Basically, it's about this mother and daughter. The mother is a, is a Hollywood actress. She had this, like, sort of weird, almost like reality movie thing that she did, experimental thing. It made her very famous. It was like, it was like they were just following her, basically, in this one room, and there was sex, and, like, kind of weird. She has a daughter as a single mother, and then she goes on to be on a sitcom with, like, a husband and a son, and the husband, who becomes her lover on and off for years. None of this is a spoiler. He dies at the start of the book, and it's about the son from the show, the real-life daughter, and the mom, and they're sort of just like in LA, kind of being like icky, they're all kind of icky, just like I don't know, it's it's a little like yucky people, which I, which again, I don't normally like that, I like hot people or bad people, but icky people creeps me out, but and it's really just like them, it kind of like hanging out, kind of like being around each other, and jockeying for position and power and sympathy, etc. etc. and all of those things on paper. I don't think that I like. I think that's fair.

Mary H.K. Choi 33:53

Yeah, I mean, the icky people part a ton. I was just like, oh, you're not gonna like any of these characters. However, I think that this book was a challenge to me, and a challenge that I really wanted to sort of dive into. Is that, like, I'm, you know, I'm an adult, I'm getting older, like, I know how alloyed we are. I know that my first three thoughts are guaranteed icky and self-serving, and like really, really self-indulgent and selfish, and all of these things, and I really wanted people to be ultimately very lovable, but like very questionable.

Traci Thomas 34:27

Yeah,

Mary H.K. Choi 34:28

and like they all think that they're doing the right thing, like that's the part which I love about, yeah, I love about all people that I have a lot of like compassion and just like affection for, is that like we all, we're all doing our best. There isn't a single villain who's like not genre blind,

Traci Thomas 34:46

right, right, right, right, right. Okay, we have to pivot first. We have to take a break, and then we have to pivot to your, to your reading life. So, we'll be back. We're back. I did not prep you for this part, so don't get mad at me, but this is Ask the Stacks, where someone has written an email to Ask the Stacks at the Stacks podcast.com and we're gonna give them a book recommendation. Are you ready?

Mary H.K. Choi 35:11

Yes.

Traci Thomas 35:11

Okay. This comes from Emily, and they say my husband is interested in reading more, and so far audio books have been working for him. He really enjoyed the audio books for the Murder Bot series and Project Hail Mary, but he wants to branch out from sci-fi. No character-driven literary fiction here. The man likes plot. He wants something that's fast-paced, has an intriguing premise, maybe some mystery, ideally some humor too. And most importantly, on audio, he's been enjoying fiction, but I think the right nonfiction could be fun too. What are some audio books you'd recommend?

Mary H.K. Choi 35:44

Oh my god, Patrick Radden Keefe

Traci Thomas 35:46

Okay, I couldn't do it, but that's what I wanted to do. I'm so glad you did. I recommended him last month. So, in your newsletter, you called him the Litter Nuts boyfriend, and I just want to be really clear with everyone, he was my boyfriend first.

Speaker 1 35:59

However, how many boyfriends do you have?

Traci Thomas 36:01

I have at least Jason Reynolds. Jason Reynolds, but I was okay. Nobody was as hot for Patrick Radden Keefe as me in 2021. People knew about him. People were like, say nothing is great, but I feel like when Empire of Pain came out, I really hit the fucking floor running for him, and now everybody's in love with him. Gilbert Cruz at the New York Times on his episode, he sounds like he's like swooning in the conversation.

Mary H.K. Choi 36:27

Did I tell you I had dinner with him once,

Traci Thomas 36:29

Gilbert or Patrick?

Traci Thomas 36:30

Patrick

Traci Thomas 36:31

well, I met Patrick, and I told him I call you my boyfriend online, and he said I love that, and I said I'm so glad to hear that.

Mary H.K. Choi 36:39

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, it's like, even IRL, and you know, this doesn't happen, and, like, granted, I had a group dinner, it was like a very nice thing, but he is like so

Traci Thomas 36:49

swoon-worthy,

Mary H.K. Choi 36:51

yeah, so swaggy, and so like effortless,

Traci Thomas 36:54

so effortless, just he's a nerd,

Mary H.K. Choi 36:57

he's just a nerd with a fantastic head of hair,

Traci Thomas 37:00

great hair, and, and you know, he's nasty with the pen, like, you know, you know that the skill is right there, you know what I mean, it's like it's just lingering, right there

Mary H.K. Choi 37:10

but I think the thing that he does really beautifully, non-creepy wife guy, though

Traci Thomas 37:14

non-creepy wife guy, don't bring up the wife, okay, just Lena, that's her name, he seems, he seems overall pretty good. I'm sure he's got like at least one fucked up political thing going on that we don't know about, like, because, like, all white men do. There's like probably something weird that he's like into that's like, oh no. But for the most part, I haven't found it yet, you know

Mary H.K. Choi 37:35

that. And also, like, you know, it, you know, it says a lot that whatever it is, if it ever comes out, like, I think that when, if that day comes, we'll be like, huh, rather than yes, yeah,

Traci Thomas 37:47

yeah, I think it'll be, huh, I think it'll be,

Mary H.K. Choi 37:49

it'll be, huh, anyway, so that's who I would recommend, and you can't recommend that, but I think we did a good job,

Traci Thomas 37:56

that's great, that's the correct answer, Emily, I chose not to do it, because I don't like to just only recommend Patrick Radden Keefe

Mary H.K. Choi 38:02

You only speak in affiliate links.

Traci Thomas 38:05

Yeah, exactly. But here, here's here's three that I have for you. So, one is anything by SA Cosby, his fiction. They're like thrillers, they're kind of violent, they're very funny in a dark way, and they're narrated by I think all of them are narrated by the same guy, and I can't remember who it is, but he's fantastic, so I recommend that

Mary H.K. Choi 38:26

narrator is so key,

Traci Thomas 38:27

narrator, so key, my, my two nonfiction answers, one is an obvious, this is a 10 out of 10 nonfiction audio book, it's almost where everybody started with audiobooks, and it's Trevor Noah's Born a Crime, a celebrity memoir on audio is perfection, and you know when they read it out loud and they do other stuff. So, if your husband is at all interested in Trevor Noah, or even not at all, because this is like a really good memoir, but any celebrity he's into, though, sometimes with the men's moirs they get a little ick, like I don't, I'm not recommending like Matthew McConaughey, you know what I mean

Mary H.K. Choi 39:02

like, is it the green lights or whatever?

Traci Thomas 39:03

yeah, like, I don't know that you have to do that, but I do feel like I don't know a lot of the like women's celebrity memoirs are fantastic.

Mary H.K. Choi 39:11

I will say about the Matthew McConaughey one, if that is your thing, it's so your thing,

Traci Thomas 39:17

yeah, if that's yours, if he's your thing, go for it, but I can't vouch for every male celebrity memoir in the same way that I feel like I can for the women one. And then the last one is a book that I love that I had no idea I was gonna like. I started on audio and then was inventing tasks, so that I could keep listening to it, which is a better ending by James Whitfield Thompson in the 1970s His sister is ruled as a suicide, but the sister was married to a cop, and the cop found the body, and they were like, it's a suicide, and then, like, years later, the author goes back and sort of, like, re-evaluates and digs into. Story of his sister's death, and was it a suicide, or was it something more nefarious? And it's just like a really good family memoir kind of story, like you're learning about her, you're learning about him, and it's so compelling. Like, cannot stop listening to it's one of it's one of those books that, if I had read it on the page, I probably wouldn't have read it, but on audio I was like, this is a banger.

Mary H.K. Choi 40:20

There's so many books on audio that I wouldn't have read on the page, but, like,

Traci Thomas 40:24

including Strangers by Belle Burden,

Mary H.K. Choi 40:26

1,000%

Traci Thomas 40:27

If I had to read that, I would have been like, no thank you. But hearing her say it locked in.

Mary H.K. Choi 40:36

I will also say that, like, I mean, how was that story not suss from jump? I mean, I guess, like, the cops piece was like less sus then or something,

Traci Thomas 40:43

yeah. And I think she had, like, I can't exactly remember the details, but she had had like a miscarriage, and so they were like, 'She's sad.

Traci Thomas 40:50

Oh God,

Traci Thomas 40:51

yeah. So, Emily, let us know if your husband reads any of our picks, how we did. And everyone else, send us book recommendations at Ask the Stacks at the Stacks podcast.com Okay, Mary, over to you. Two books you love, one book you hate.

Mary H.K. Choi 41:07

Hate?

Traci Thomas 41:08

come on, you knew this was coming.

Mary H.K. Choi 41:09

I do. You are so vocal,

Traci Thomas 41:13

not vocal, that's a nice way of saying it.

Mary H.K. Choi 41:17

I love.. did you read Rachel Kong's short story collection,

Traci Thomas 41:21

I didn't. I heard it's great.

Mary H.K. Choi 41:23

It's enchanting, and actually it's like it's even good if you don't like short stories. And what I mean by that is that, like, each one is so deeply weird and like stands alone in such a specific way, and her brain is so, so like she's the type of person who like loves nature and natural phenomenon, and like, got it, learns about it, so she's like, she's basically like the type of person that finds quite a bit to be quite miraculous, but is smart too. Yeah, so that's like amazing. Um, I would do, you know, Ed Young, I know you don't have like that too, like so smart, and like, so like, bowled over, like, ended that vibe.

Traci Thomas 42:03

Okay,

Mary H.K. Choi 42:04

so that's something I really loved. I just started reading, for some reason, like, all of Rufi Thorpe's books, I mean, probably because Margo Has Money Troubles came out the show on Apple, and I just read all the books, and then ended on Margo, and so all of those were incredible, like knockout queen, like girls from Corona del Mar, like, and reading them all at once was really, really good. And I did the same thing with Melissa Broder, like I had never, for some reason, you know, I'm like a like dyed in the wool bulimic person, like I'm just like my thinking is bulimic, even if I'm not purging, like I'm always binging somewhere

Traci Thomas 42:40

My thinking is bulimic

Mary H.K. Choi 42:41

it's just bulimic, it's like it's like lots in, lots out.

Traci Thomas 42:45

Yeah, okay.

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

So I had never read Milk Fed, which blew my mind, like just the way she talks about bodies, the way she talks about feeling, just the way she talks about like obliteration, like and love and sensuousness, like all of that, like I love so much, and so a book I hated isn't a book I hated. I'm sorry, but I will say I didn't love, the adaptation of Vladimir. That's all I'm gonna say. Are you gonna make me pick an actual book that I hate?

Traci Thomas 42:46

An actual book that you hate! Nothing will make you more likable to my listeners than you telling us what you hate, this whole bit of I can't say it, we don't like that around here. What we want is for you to be like fuck Holden Caulfield, or whatever. You know,

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

I will say fuck the twist in yesteryear. Okay, I just

Traci Thomas 42:46

I fucking hated that book.

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

I just stopped the fuck right there. I was like, I was into it, I was into it, I was like, oh my god, go off, la la la la la. I'm stalled at when the twist happens, and I don't know if I can continue.

Traci Thomas 42:46

Well, let me just tell you, it actually, and I mean this in the most honest and kind way, gets worse from there. The book gets considerably worse in the last, whatever, 50 pages

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

But I want to, I like, I love cynicism, I love exactitude, but then, okay, for example, like the movie that John, we were just talking about this online, he's your friend, he's a comedian, he's about

Traci Thomas 42:46

John Early,

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

John Early's movie, right, yes, where it's kind of about like, like content creators, and like, go viral, and yes, like that direction looks incredible,

Traci Thomas 42:46

But I don't think yesteryear does that,

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

and it doesn't, but I'm just saying, like, that kind of exactitude, I'm here for

Traci Thomas 42:46

Me too, and then you have to do that right,

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

But you have done that too, I'm good with this twist, I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck.

Traci Thomas 42:46

Well, save yourself. Okay? What are you reading right now?

Mary H.K. Choi 42:46

I am reading.. God, what do I read? This always feels like, you know, what I'm actually reading, weirdly I'm reading Milan Condera, like.. I'd never read The Unbearable Lightness of Being.

Traci Thomas 43:01

Oh, I've never read that either, I don't think.

Mary H.K. Choi 45:05

And I was so ready to be annoyed, like I think I picked it up. I was like, are you Manosphere, which is a kind of largely my question for all men, but there is something in the formatting of it, and like the world building, in the way he like jumps from chapter to chapter to talk about something completely unrelated, seemingly, or will like almost like do one of these where there he's zooming in on like the definition of something or like a word that you just used to describe something, and I find that kind of like peripatetic nonlinearity to be really exciting for my brain right now, because obviously all I can think about is how to make people like my choices that I made in this book, and so there is something really edifying about reading something that really feels like they don't care.

Traci Thomas 45:57

Interesting, you're now making me interested in reading it. I do like when a book, sort of zooms in, or

Mary H.K. Choi 46:01

a weird thing. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 46:03

yeah. Well, that's what I feel like Patrick Radden Keef does so well.

Mary H.K. Choi 46:05

Totally,

Traci Thomas 46:06

like he just jumps all of a sudden. You're like Rwanda, 1972 I'm like, "Bitch, weren't we just in London?"

Mary H.K. Choi 46:12

you know, what Famesick does this really well.

Traci Thomas 46:14

Oh, you liked Famesick? I feel like I should not read Famesick because I

Mary H.K. Choi 46:18

Have it read to you

Traci Thomas 46:19

like an audio book, or like a human being

Mary H.K. Choi 46:21

Audio book

Traci Thomas 46:22

I thought you meant like find a person on the street, like this aloud to me.

Mary H.K. Choi 46:27

Not there, not there. 1.2 speed. Thank you.

Traci Thomas 46:29

Yeah, I know. If I was gonna read, I would definitely be audio. I just.. I don't have any feelings about her, and I feel like you have to have some feelings about her to read the book.

Mary H.K. Choi 46:39

I had no feelings about her,

Traci Thomas 46:40

really. None. I never.. I've never watched an episode of That's not true. I watched one episode of Girls, the first one, and I don't care about her, and I don't follow her, and I find her to be totally just like, yuck, not for me

Mary H.K. Choi 46:52

same. However, that's why I was so shocked to be into her, and that's why I wrote a whole newsletter about it, and that's why I was like girls, because I'd never watched girls either. I'd watched that first pilot episode, and for some reason there's an Asian girl in her office who's like, you know, that classic stereotypical Asian girl who's like really, really competent, and I was like, "fuck this, I'm not watching it, but I don't know, because what Famesick does really, really well is it just talks about the sort of perversion of being famous and celebrity, and like what that actually does to your body. I mean, actually, Famesick is actually a book about inflammation.

Traci Thomas 47:33

Okay, okay, you're convincing me. Both you, and then also I feel like J Wortham asked me about it too, like, are you gonna read this, and I was like, I don't know, should I, and I can't remember if they said that I shouldn't or that they hadn't yet, and they wanted to know if I was gonna do it, because you know, I get a lot of those messages, have you done it yet, and then I'm like, no, and then they're like, well, can you do it and tell me,

Mary H.K. Choi 47:54

I think J Wortham is doing it,

Traci Thomas 47:55

that's what I think too,

Mary H.K. Choi 47:56

yeah, because I had done it, and I was just like, I have, I have thoughts, and we were texting briefly about it.

Traci Thomas 48:02

okay. Well, now I want to do it so we can be in a group chat about it

Mary H.K. Choi 48:06

even if you hate it. I'm so here for you telling me why you hated it

Traci Thomas 48:10

Okay, well, obviously I will. Okay, we should tell people. I mean, people will know by the time they hear this, but in case you missed it, for book club we're doing perhaps Manosphere, perhaps not the alchemist.

Mary H.K. Choi 48:23

I feel like I feel like alchemist predates manosphere, like it's kind of like,

Traci Thomas 48:28

okay, so let me tell you why we were not, we're not going to talk at all about our thoughts and feelings about the book,

Mary H.K. Choi 48:32

because that was this is a deal,

Traci Thomas 48:33

that's part of the deal. But what you all need to know, listeners, is that we picked this book because we want to earnestly read it. We're gonna give it a fair shake. We've both read it in the past. We both didn't like it.

Mary H.K. Choi 48:44

We both resented it slightly

Traci Thomas 48:47

Correct but we're gonna read it now. And the reason that I want to read it this month, despite all the eye rolls from all of you at home, is that I have this thing that I've been thinking a lot about, about the books that have shaped our current political cultural climate, and this predates Manosphere, but I think everyone who invented Manosphere read this book, and it changed their life, and I want to know if that is present in the text. Can I feel that thing, so that's what I'm kind of reading it with an eye towards. That's all we'll say.

Mary H.K. Choi 49:19

So, you basically want to know if it's like giving like Ayn Rand or whatever.

Traci Thomas 49:22

Yes, I do. I mean, that's another book, like The Found Head. I did read half of The Turner Diaries this year. I couldn't finish because I thought it was going to be bad, like this is so racist, but it was going to be like compelling, but it was so bad I couldn't read the sentences. The racism wasn't that bad. I was like, yeah, yeah, okay, n word, whatever, bye. But it was like, it was like, black people are gonna rape women, and I was like, yeah, I know you guys think that, but it was like, the writing, oh my god, it was unbearable. I had to stop, and I was so excited to read it. So, hopefully, The Alchemist will be slightly..

Mary H.K. Choi 49:58

hopefully it'll be good. Mean, like, we're not, yeah, we're not trying to, like, rage bait ourselves.

Traci Thomas 50:04

No, I want to read it and just see, like, why do so many men in their 20s think this book is so important.

Mary H.K. Choi 50:09

I mean, I hope it, I hope it's like inspiring to me, like,

Traci Thomas 50:12

I hope so. I sort of hope that I could become an alchemist person.

Mary H.K. Choi 50:15

Me too.

Traci Thomas 50:16

like, I need a quest, so that's what we're reading for a book club this month, in case you missed the announcement. All right, here's what I want to know about you. How, what's your ideal reading setup, location, time of day, snacks and beverages, temperature, accoutrement, accessories?

Mary H.K. Choi 50:31

So I have a really, like, pathetically laughable situation, which is that I have two couches in my house, one is not good for reading, basically. It doesn't have any arms,

Traci Thomas 50:44

okay?

Mary H.K. Choi 50:44

The other one is really uncomfortable, but there's one part of it that's perfect for reading. So, there's a corner piece in my, like, sectional situation that's like a little baseball mitt. Your butt goes right in the middle, and it's incredible, and it has like a very, very small footstool that, that becomes a coffee table, that is my ideal situation. I have put a sconce there because I do not like overhead lighting, so we have like a warm Scandinavian sconce in the corner, that is my ideal place. I don't love to, I love to read in twilight, if not like golden hour, there's something so indulgent about being like it's light outside, and for some reason I'm reading. I like minimum two beverages, usually three or four.

Traci Thomas 51:32

Okay, and what are they?

Mary H.K. Choi 51:33

Several temperatures. So I have water at room temp, large jar, like Mason jar. then I have a soda, like some sort of carbonated effervescent situation with ice cubes, smaller jar. and then I like to have a large mug, nothing I despise more than like a like a ornamental tiny mug. I want a large mug of tea. You have good mugs. We've talked about this.

Traci Thomas 51:59

Yes. Oh, yes.

Mary H.K. Choi 52:00

And we have specific tastes and teas, so this is a non-caffeinated Tizane family type tea, and then not strictly a drink, but I think qualifies. I will make a frappe,

Traci Thomas 52:15

oh, with like the coffee, like, like in Greece,

Mary H.K. Choi 52:17

like a decaf frappe with almond milk and sugar-free vanilla syrup. I'm a monster in a ninja creami, so that gets a special long spoon. All of these, and then another snack, crunchy, salty, another snack beyond that, sweet, usually chewy.

Traci Thomas 52:38

Okay, and this is what I need people to know right now. If you come on this fucking podcast and you have an answer about snacks and beverages that is less than what you just heard, think again, people. This is what this question was written for, and this is why we are friends.

Mary H.K. Choi 52:55

If you don't have, like, multiple vessels to put different formats

Traci Thomas 53:00

like this, my everyday walk around the house mug must have a ton of ice in it,

Mary H.K. Choi 53:06

ton of ice,

Traci Thomas 53:07

ton of ice. When I drink out of just a glass, not a drop of ice in it, not a piece of ice, must be just cold from the fridge, not room temp, just cold from the fridge. I do not like ice without a straw. I do not want it coming when it's like get this out of here.

Mary H.K. Choi 53:24

Also, then it's splashback,

Traci Thomas 53:25

the whole thing. But people who are just like, oh, like, what's your snack and beverage? And they're like, coffee, like, how do you take it? How big is the cup? Do you want it warm? Do you want it cold? Do you want it piping hot? Will you like what is happening? Please make me the coffee. Are you buying the coffee? Do you have a coffee maker? Do you have a fancy espresso maker that your partner just got because you guys went to Italy a year ago? Like, I need details.

Mary H.K. Choi 53:51

Totally

Traci Thomas 53:52

sick of the general shit. Give me your drinks and snacks, people.

Mary H.K. Choi 53:57

You know why I think everything else is AI.

Traci Thomas 54:02

Every guest I've ever had on the show is AI.

Mary H.K. Choi 54:05

No, just because, like, we have very special needs.

Traci Thomas 54:09

This is why I want to hear all these details.

Mary H.K. Choi 54:11

Yeah, like this is, but like, like you can say any answer to any question and it will be legible and it'll be plausible. However, tell me who you are, like that's right, that snap question is basically the equivalent of like what am I looking at versus you know that thing of in like books where like the protagonist walks across a mirror and like describes what they see, I'm like yeah

Mary H.K. Choi 54:34

no thanks. How do people treat you?

Traci Thomas 54:36

Yeah so I'm just so glad that you've given me an answer I can hold on to, because I've been starting to get tired of the question. I'm gonna be honest, I've started to get bored with the answers. People are just giving me, like, "Oh, popcorn. I'm like, "Okay, like, are you microwaving it? Are you making it yourself? Like, what? Popcorn? This is your dream reading situation. It can't just be chips. Do you know many chips there are?

Mary H.K. Choi 54:57

Totally, I mean, popcorn to me. And is for me microwave plus popcorn seasoning dill flavor.

Traci Thomas 55:06

Oh, yuck, I hate dill.

Mary H.K. Choi 55:07

Love dill. And then, like, and then Maggie sauce.

Traci Thomas 55:11

What's Maggie sauce?

Mary H.K. Choi 55:13

It is a European, it's like soy sauce, but it's like a flavoring, and it's like a lot more going on, and sometimes even on top of that, I will throw on some fucking what's it called, the vegans fuck with it=

Traci Thomas 55:29

nutritional yeast. I love this. Okay, we have to come off snacks, but not forever. What's the last book you purchased?

Mary H.K. Choi 55:40

The last book I purchased was the paperback edition of my friend Kevin Wenz My Documents, because I went, I was a conversation partner with him, and I always love to support the thing. Just because you're going doesn't mean you can't buy the thing.

Traci Thomas 55:53

Yeah, what's the last book that made you laugh?

Mary H.K. Choi 55:56

This isn't the last book that made me laugh, but it's the book that immediately popped into my brain when you asked that question, which is Tony Tulitimutte's rejection.

Traci Thomas 56:05

what's the last book that made you cry?

Mary H.K. Choi 56:08

Heart the Lover, Lily King.

Traci Thomas 56:10

What's the last book that made you angry?

Mary H.K. Choi 56:12

Probably Strangers, Belle Burden. Also, yesteryear,

Traci Thomas 56:17

Rage. What's last book that made you feel like you learned a lot,

Mary H.K. Choi 56:21

like was tricked into learning a lot, probably like London Falling.

Traci Thomas 56:26

damn it, Patrick, stop it. You just learn things. What's a book that you feel proud that you've read?

Mary H.K. Choi 56:32

I did read Anna Karenina, but like, here's the thing: normalize reading an entire book and not remembering shit about it,

Traci Thomas 56:40

okay, what's a book that you're sort of embarrassed that you still haven't read yet?

Mary H.K. Choi 56:45

I still haven't read Wuthering Heights,

Traci Thomas 56:47

me neither

Mary H.K. Choi 56:47

and I still haven't read the.. I have still haven't seen the movie either.

Traci Thomas 56:50

I mean, either.

Mary H.K. Choi 56:51

Should we watch it together? I know you don't want to. You're skipping it entirely.

Traci Thomas 56:57

I have so little watching time in my life, you know. I love sports, and so if I'm watching I'm doing sports

Mary H.K. Choi 57:04

sports is so time consuming. If you just cut out sports, you'd have so much more life.

Traci Thomas 57:08

Yeah, maybe, but then I wouldn't have the same level of joy that I have. My hottest take is that the greatest narrative in the world are sports narratives, are sports watching sports, better than any book I've ever read better than any movie, any TV show.

Mary H.K. Choi 57:22

So often I will still watch a sports documentary because I just get tricked into being like the stakes are really clear. They're even like,

Traci Thomas 57:29

they're so clear.

Traci Thomas 57:31

Yes, there's teams, there's stakes, there's a clock. It's like in fiction you have to like create a clock, like to give it. It's like the stakes are there, the clock is right the fuck they're like even in baseball there's no clock, but you got two outs and you only have one left, like come on, it's drama.

Mary H.K. Choi 57:48

Do you watch all the sports?

Traci Thomas 57:50

Baseball, basketball, American football, not as much as I used to, the soccer, some not the hockey, tennis. Yes,

Mary H.K. Choi 58:02

I love that you made it domestic. You're like the American footballs, not so much,

Traci Thomas 58:07

so much, not so much with the American footballs. Is there a book that you love that you think people would be surprised to know that you, Mary H.K. Choi, love it?

Mary H.K. Choi 58:18

This is like trying to think of a joke off top, and also I should totally be prepared, like I knew I was talking to you, like

Traci Thomas 58:24

I don't always ask this one

Mary H.K. Choi 58:26

I like a lot of like really basic books. like I would read any book that's like in an airport, pretty much. And happily,

Traci Thomas 58:35

yeah, yeah, like I like, I like, I like an airport book at the right time.

Mary H.K. Choi 58:42

I don't always love the dad-spionoge books. I will say

Traci Thomas 58:48

there's a certain kind of cover that I dislike.

Mary H.K. Choi 58:51

Well, because those feel like jingoism, like anything that feels too American, I'm not scrap. Oh, I haven't read this book, but I would. I really want to read the Viola Davis James Patterson book.

Traci Thomas 59:02

Oh, I don't really want to read that.

Mary H.K. Choi 59:05

Is it Viola?

Traci Thomas 59:06

I think it's Viola.

Mary H.K. Choi 59:07

It is Viola. Made her an instrument.

Traci Thomas 59:10

It's fine. Her body is an instrument because she's an actor. Okay, I have two more questions for you. Who would you want to write? Oh, wait, no, I have three more. Sorry. Okay. One is, who would you want to write the book of your life, like your life story?

Mary H.K. Choi 59:26

I'm not even kidding, but like, no one.

Traci Thomas 59:29

Okay

Mary H.K. Choi 59:29

Like, get out of there. What do you do? Like, who goes there?

Traci Thomas 59:34

Yeah, okay, that's fair. If you were a high school teacher, what's the book you would assign to your students?

Mary H.K. Choi 59:40

Like, am I like, am I a creative writing English teacher?

Traci Thomas 59:43

Whatever, you know, whatever kind of teacher you want.

Mary H.K. Choi 59:45

I don't know, this is just on my brain. Lily King, Father of the Rain.

Traci Thomas 59:49

Oh, okay, yeah, I never read her last one. Stole it from the New York Times. If you could require the current President of the United States of America to read one book. Book, what would it be?

Mary H.K. Choi 1:00:01

Oh my god, the current president.

Traci Thomas 1:00:03

Yes, the current one.

Mary H.K. Choi 1:00:05

I don't think I am ever naive enough to believe that the most compelling book that could potentially act as some kind of propaganda or like reality check about, like, because, like, any book that I even recommend, about, like, you know, like Molly Crab Apple's book, or whatever, about, like, Palestine and Israel, like, he's.. it's not going to change anything.

Traci Thomas 1:00:30

No,

Mary H.K. Choi 1:00:31

that question is strangely very disappointing. I mean, very depressing.

Traci Thomas 1:00:36

I resent the question now. Unfortunately, every episode of the show where we like, whoever does book club with me, I have asked this question to, and

Mary H.K. Choi 1:00:46

what have other people like said

Traci Thomas 1:00:48

Well first term Trump was different, there was a different energy about what kind of person he was or could have been,

Mary H.K. Choi 1:00:55

like people actually tried to make entreaties, right?

Traci Thomas 1:00:57

Yeah, and then like I remember being so excited when Biden came to office, I was like, we might get like better answers, and then they were fine, but like definitely more interesting, because people believe that Joe Biden could read a book, like fundamentally, a lot of times, whenever I ask a question with Trump, it's like, can he even read, and I'm like, well, we should have to assume that he can, but it is, it's sort of the question has sort of started, I like, started to hate the question, because everybody's just like, this sucks, and it does suck, but I'm also like, well, we do this every episode, I want everyone on record for this sort of like a time capsule of the moment, but you know, some people do like, oh, the places you'll go by Dr. Seuss, or whatever,

Mary H.K. Choi 1:01:38

well, there's this book, it's called We Found a Hat, and it's by John Classen. It's a children's book, so I do think he's capable of reading it, which I think is really important. But it's basically about what happens when there are finite resources, or there are resources that are fewer than the number of you, and what happens, and how you can find peace and solidarity within that

Traci Thomas 1:02:05

with a hat. I love this. Everybody, this has been a wonderful conversation with Mary H.K. Choi, Queen of the Snack, Woman of My Heart. Her new book, Pool House, is out on june 9. This episode is coming out on june 3, which means you have time to pre-order or make a plan to go to your local independent bookstore on Tuesday, june 9 to get the book. You have six days, it will be out then. I feel like you should make that plan with yourself and all of your friends and neighbors.

Mary H.K. Choi 1:02:37

Totally, because as we all know, pre-orders are really important, and every single book that is sold between whenever and the first week counts towards that first week, and that makes a huge difference. So, it does.

Traci Thomas 1:02:51

So, you all could get a jump. You could make a huge difference in Mary's life, and also you can make a huge difference in this podcast, because if we affirm Mary and her love of snacks, we will hopefully get more authors who take this question seriously. Stop fucking around with my time. Okay. And then Mary will be back on june 24 for our discussion of The Alchemist, which I cannot wait for. Mary, I love you. Thank you so much for doing this. You are absolutely the best human ever.

Mary H.K. Choi 1:03:15

I love you too. I'm so, so happy that we got to do this, and I hope to see you in LA when I'm in LA.

Traci Thomas 1:03:25

I'm gonna come, and I'm gonna see.. we've got more to talk about after we hang up on these people. Sorry, people. Bye. See you on the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Mary H.K. Choi for joining the show, and a special thank you to Kat Keeney for your assistance in making this episode possible. Our book club pick for June is The Alchemist by Paolo Coelho, and we'll discuss the book with Mary H.K. Choi on Wednesday, June 24 If you love The Stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the Stacks, and join the Stacks pack, and you can check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas dot sub stack.com Please do me a favor right now. Look at your phone, make sure that wherever you're listening to this podcast, you are subscribed to the show on that platform, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, just take this moment right now, while you're looking at your phone, to leave us a rating and a review. It helps people to know what they're gonna get when they listen to this podcast. So go ahead, give me those five stars. Tell people why you love it. For more from The Stacks, you can follow us on social media at The Stacks Pod on Instagram Threads. And now we are on YouTube, and you can check out our website at The Stacks podcast.com This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenias with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from To Gear Just. The stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Traci Thomas
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