Ep. 442 I Put My Readers Through the Ringer with Marlon James

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re joined by Booker Prize–winning novelist Marlon James to talk about his newest book, The Disappearers. This novel follows a brutal attack on eight gay actors in 1980s Jamaica and the ways it impacts each of the victims. We chat about how he infuses his books with pop culture, what he thinks about people calling his work “difficult,” and why 2026 is the year of the revenge novel.

Our book club pick for September is Brother, I’m Dying by Edwidge Danticat. We will be discussing the book with Natalie Green on Wednesday, September 30th.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Marlon James 0:00

I like to think that what I'm demanding of the reader is pays off. You know, I take a lot of risk. I really hope I nail the landing, and I think my response from readers has been that. And some people do talk about how difficult it is because, among other things, they have to kind of learn a new language. I thought they're going to read English, and it is English, but they still have to learn it. But I think with my books, hopefully, they'll learn something about human condition. They'll learn something about the extremes in which people would go. They have a lot to laugh at and laugh with, and they have a lot to cry at too.

Traci Thomas 0:42

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by Booker Prize-winning novelist Marlon James to talk about his newest book, The Disappearers. Set in 1980s Jamaica, this novel explores the aftermath of a brutal gay bashing against eight actors rehearsing a play. Today we talk about violence, revenge, and the difficulty of reading a Marlon James novel. Our book club pick for September is Brother I'm Dying by Edwidge Danticat, which we will discuss with Natalie Green on Wednesday, september 30. If you like this podcast and you want more bookish content, please consider joining our community, the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter Unstacked on Substack. Each of these places offers different perks to you, things like bonus episodes, virtual book club, hot takes on books and pop culture, and by joining, it makes it possible for me to make this very podcast every single week. So if you like what you hear, head to Patreon.com/slash The stacks to join the stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter unstacked at Traci thomas.substack.com. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Marlon James. All right, everybody, I'm so excited. I am joined today by I think it's fair to say the man of the moment, the literary legend himself. I am joined by the author of the book that everyone is talking about, including me. I'm here with Marlon James, author of The Disappearers. Marlon, welcome to the stacks.

Marlon James 2:18

Oh my God, thanks for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:19

I'm really excited. I know you've been talking about this book just about everywhere on the face of the earth. How many of these have you done so far?

Marlon James 2:28

Oh, I can't go into anymore.

Traci Thomas 2:31

So I'll tell you, kind of publicly, my goal for today's conversation. My goal is that we don't really cover any ground that I've heard you cover on all 500 of your other interviews. So that's what I've set up for myself. There's a few things I think we have to hit, which I think we'll start with. Can you just tell people about the novel, and then we'll take off.

Marlon James 2:52

Right. Well, you know, The Disappearers is set in Jamaica. It begins in 1988 in Jamaica, and six, no eight. I can't even remember the number. A number, a group of gay men living different types of secret lives, come together to play to to take part in a very sort of underground, very controversial underground prison play called Fortune in men's eyes, but before they could even perform it, they're attacked suddenly. Attacked by an anti-gay mob, which leaves one of them dead, another and a lot of them seriously injured. Sometime after that, two of the victims just vanish without the trace, And between the beating, the gay bashing, and the vanishing, the other characters come undone, and it completely changes the course of their lives. Some run far into the closet. Some plot revenge, and as I said before, some seem to just vanish in thin air.

Traci Thomas 4:00

Yeah, I want to start with the play. I am a theater person. I have a background in theater, and I'm really curious how you decided what play Fortune in Men's Eyes that your characters would do in this. Did you always know that was the play?

Marlon James 4:18

Absolutely not. I the initial draft that my editor still has is says sorry the original draft had a ver a gay version of my fair lady called my fair Brady and I was very proud of it because I wrote I almost rewrote the whole play the more musical without the lyrics, it's basically Pygmalion anyway.

Traci Thomas 4:44

Yeah, yeah.

Marlon James 4:45

It it was funny and it made some interesting things about class because of Eliza, who was who was now Elijah Doolittle, and they get to give some nice gay puns where the Elijah's father comes in and the person goes, "Is he your real father or just a daddy?"

Traci Thomas 5:00

Yeah,

Marlon James 5:01

I thought was very cute. Except I think it got too flippant, given how serious the book turns.

Traci Thomas 5:08

Yeah,

Marlon James 5:08

and the Fortune in Men's Eyes is the play that James Baldwin put on in Turkey. So here's where my my wonderful partner and Nicholas Boggs, who wrote a biography of James Baldwin comes in, and he asks, he said, you know, you should look at Fortune in Men's Eyes, and I'm like, I'm not taking a play from your book. Bad enough that we live together, but then I read it, and it made so much sense that a bunch of gay men who are underground, who would would pick something like this almost as almost as as a rebellion, almost as trolling. Honestly, it's like, is this what they think? Currently, we're gonna go here and go further and further and further. And what can be more, you know, gay aggressive than prison?

Traci Thomas 5:55

Right, right.

Marlon James 5:56

And that's why, and that's why they chose it. And and and he's, I think he says it in the book. It's not not even a play. It was the version Sal Menio did in New York,

Traci Thomas 6:05

yeah

Marlon James 6:05

that really dreamed to it because Sal Menio added scenes that weren't in the play, mostly sexual,

Traci Thomas 6:11

right? And your and your Havelock is like rewriting it. That's one of that's the director in the movie. He's sort of adding his own, he's adapting it.

Marlon James 6:20

Yeah, he's adding his own sort of you know Jamaican British colonial twist to it.

Traci Thomas 6:26

Okay, so I know that you are a Shakespeare person, as am I, desperately obsessed with Shakespeare. And I, when I finished the book, the first thing I did was go and read Sonnet 29, which is the sonnet from which the title of the play comes from? When in disgrace of fortune in men's eyes, and what I want to say is that for people at home, I suggest that you do that. It was such a revelatory experience for me to go and read the sonnet after reading the book that I read it about 30 times and have read it every day since. I cannot stop thinking about how perfect the play and the book and the sonnet work together. And your book is full of literary and pop culture references. And I'm just wondering for you, a person who reads and loves books and talks about books on your podcast. What it, what you are hoping to do, what you, what it feels like for you, what is exciting to you about having your work be so directly in conversation with other texts?

Marlon James 7:39

Well, I mean, all of that is really deliberate because I'm always in conversation with other texts. I'm always in conversation with other records. I'm always in conversation with other works of art. I, you know, I, I'm in in a lot of ways even more inspired by non-text art. You know, I'm I'm more in, you know, I put on I put on jazz music before I write. If I can't figure my way through a paragraph, I'm more likely to look at art than read read a story. I um I just think art is always in the best. Well, the art I like is always in conversation with art. It's always in conversation with other art. It's always, in some ways, influenced by other art. I I want to be influenced by all the stuff I consume. I can't believe when people say things like they don't read when they're writing because they don't want to be influenced. I'm like, that's exactly why I read when I'm writing, I want to be influenced. I want, you know, it. I want certainly for me. My novels have to be in conversation with the world around them. That's why there is so much pop culture. That's why the you know there is Depeche Mode and Nirvana. Yeah, and yeah, my characters pay attention to the world they're in.

Traci Thomas 9:04

Yeah,

Marlon James 9:05

and as I used to, and those are the people I'm interested in because they then they, without doing so, give us a report card on the world.

Traci Thomas 9:16

Yeah,

Marlon James 9:17

as opposed to me having to do the world building chapter, which would just be terrible,

Traci Thomas 9:21

right? Wait, you said that they're in conversation like with the world and with the pop culture as you used to, as if maybe that you're not anymore.

Marlon James 9:30

Well, I don't know. I'm old now. I'm old now.

Traci Thomas 9:31

Oh come on!

Marlon James 9:33

Like you know, I you know I can't be at the BTS concert. People go creep. If if you play me a Charlie XCX record, I'll probably think it's Olivia Rodrigo.

Traci Thomas 9:44

Okay.

Marlon James 9:45

So, but when I was the part of pop culture, I was deeply in it.

Traci Thomas 9:52

Yeah.

Marlon James 9:53

You know, a lot of Gen X people. To it was the first time, for example, music culture became the center popular culture. Because of MTV, because of videos, because any time on TV you could you could see you know the songs that you're hearing on the radio, and we never really lost lost that that kind of music playing an outsize role.

Traci Thomas 10:17

Yeah.

Marlon James 10:18

So there's a lot of pop culture, but there are also, I think, I I touch on 154 different artists in the novel.

Traci Thomas 10:25

Wow!

Marlon James 10:26

As 154 musicians, rather, in the novel.

Traci Thomas 10:28

Wow, that's incredible. Did your did you get that when you? What's the sheet that you get at the end where they like tell you how many? Is that is that how you remember?

Marlon James 10:36

I can't remember but there is a sheet. There is a sheet. Yeah, I forget. But that was somebody who went through the book and and made a playlist on on Apple Music. I'm like, y'all doing God's work because

Traci Thomas 10:48

I know! close readers. Well, I was thinking when I was thinking about the pop culture that was so interesting in relationship to the book is like this is a time where we still really have monoculture, which is a thing that you know people sort of are lamenting these days. Everybody has their own niche. You're not listening to the radio. You're not listening to or like watching MTV. You know, you can stream a million different things in your house at a different time. But what I was thinking about was how this year, this fall in books specifically, has felt very monoculture. Like it has felt like people are all reading the same things this year, like strangers and yesteryear, and now your book bursts on the scene, and I feel like everyone I know is talking about even people I know who we have a joke with where we say, "Oh, he can't even read. Was talking to me about your book for an hour. He was asking me about it, and so I'm wondering, I'm wondering what you make of this sort of monoculturey moment in books, if it's anything you've seen in the last 20 years.

Marlon James 11:48

Well, I mean, I think sometimes when we say monoculture, I think we sometimes look at it as a negative, and I understand all the reasons why we look at it as a negative because monoculture seems to mean only a few books.

Traci Thomas 12:02

Well, I'm very pro monoculture.

Marlon James 12:04

Yeah, my experience with it is that somebody getting excited about yesteryear makes another person excited about yesteryear, and if two people are excited and more people get excited, and you know what, that they get excited about another book, and they get excited about another book, and you know, again, coming out of the 80s, one could say we had more rock stars where we focused on Michael Jackson than Prince and Bruce Springsteen and Madonna than know when you have a million different artists and nobody really cares.

Traci Thomas 12:35

Yeah,

Marlon James 12:36

there's something to say about millions of people, or hundreds of 1000s of people, in the same conversation for a brief moment, we're kind of all on the same page, or at least we're all in the same room.

Traci Thomas 12:48

Yeah,

Marlon James 12:49

and Lord knows there's so many things that divide people now. If you know, I always say books are worth fighting for, but they also worth fighting over.

Traci Thomas 12:58

Yeah,

Marlon James 12:59

and if if if that is is you know getting people to the bookstore, then I am you know I'm all for it. I I get the whole idea that if you focus on just four books, that means the 40 books are ignored. I don't. I I think that's the logic that works well on paper, but that's not how it really works.

Traci Thomas 13:19

I don't think that's how at

Marlon James 13:20

You know I think, I yeah, I think excitement about one book leads to excitement about another book, and leads excitement to another book, and and if my book is playing a role in that, then that's great because you know anybody asks me about books, I can immediately give them 10 books they should buy.

Traci Thomas 13:37

Yeah, you and I are alike in this. I think I'm like how many? A mom friend of mine texted me yesterday and said, "Can you recommend me two books? And I said, "Excuse me, like that is no, I can't. I can do like eight, but two? No, sorry. Like good luck, good luck with that. But I do. I mean, I do think I'm a big fan of monoculture because, in a lot of ways, I'm pretty cynical about the world and people. But I do really believe in popular culture. Like I really do believe in popular culture and art as like a thing that does work, like that can work for you, and that and that you can work with, and that can lead to things that are like maybe optimistic, which is a crazy word for me to use because I really don't feel that way about most things, you know. But I do think a book, especially a book like this that is challenging and requires a lot from the reader, is something that makes people want to talk as they're reading once they finish it. And I think having a book that is worthy of conversation, love it or hate it, is. I mean, it's why I do my job. Like, it's why I'm here. Is because just on the off chance that I get to talk about a book that I think is exciting and thrilling, it's worth reading all the other books that I put to the side, and I'm like, oh yeah.

Marlon James 14:59

Yeah, I wish people understand. It's perfectly fine to hate a book.

Traci Thomas 15:04

Thank you, Marlon. Everybody, say I need you to say that again because this is Booker Prize winner Marlon James telling you guys to chill out, and it's okay to hate a book.

Marlon James 15:14

It is absolutely okay to hate a book. It is absolutely okay to despise a book. What I do not like is when you're indifferent to a book.

Traci Thomas 15:22

Yes!

Marlon James 15:25

Love it, hate it. When I say I don't care much for it, that's when we're enemies. Because as I said, books are worth getting fight. Books are worth fighting over. I, for example, cannot stand Wuthering Heights.

Traci Thomas 15:37

I've heard you talk about this. I've never read it, but I don't want to now.

Marlon James 15:41

I I but there are a lot of people who I respect so much who talk about how Wuthering Heights changed their lives. Wuthering Heights is what made them want to write. Yeah, and I get it, and that's and it always fools me into picking up the book again.

Traci Thomas 15:54

Yeah and then hating it still.

Marlon James 15:56

Yeah, it's it's yeah. I um, my second novel has a character that does some really questionable things, and I remember somebody. I mean, it probably took her the whole day to work up the nerves. I go, "Is it fine if I if I love your book, but I hate that character?" I'm like, "Absolutely! It means you're emotionally involved, and and that's perfectly fine. I, you know, I was saying I miss villains who I really, really, really hate.

Traci Thomas 16:27

Yes, yes. Give me someone to despise, please.

Marlon James 16:33

Yeah, I, I, I, I hope I do it. You know, provoke strong reactions with the books I write and the characters I write because you know what it's a book it's a it's a vicarious experience it's once you close the book you know it lives on in the head but the experience is kind of over why not be as intense as it can be you know it's it's um I don't I mean I don't read books to be touched you know I don't read books to be mildly amused. I read books to be lost. I read books to be impressed. I read books to be amazed. I read books to be appalled.

Traci Thomas 17:07

Yeah,

Marlon James 17:08

you know, I read books to scream at them or throw them across the room or realize this is not my new greatest book of all time to replace the former greatest book of all time.

Traci Thomas 17:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like to provoke, to provoke something, something that like to provoke a feeling. Okay, I can I be honest with you, Marlon? I got back into reading in 2016, and I read a brief history of seven killings, and that book kicked my ass. I thought it was so challenging. I struggled all the way through it. I got to like the last 150 pages and was like, "This is amazing, but it it took so much out of me. It took me two months to read it, and it was just like, "Holy shit! So I was really nervous coming into The Disappearers because I was like, "This is going to be so difficult. Like he's he's had 10 years, you know, like he's written these two other books are really like I was like really nervous. I talked to your team at Riverhead. I was like out to lunch with someone on your team, and I was like, I don't know, like I don't know if I could do it. And she was like, just just try it. Like I think you'll like it. Obviously, I picked it up. I fucking loved it. But what I want to ask you about is you write these like 600 page books that are difficult on purpose, like you are challenging your reader, and so I want to know how you think about your reader experiencing things. How you think about like saying, "I'm inviting you to read this thing that's gonna be hard for you. It's all so long, and I still want you to come. And if you come with me, I think I can pull this off. How do you think about that? Like the person in the bookstore picking it up and being like intimidated.

Marlon James 18:49

I, you know, also people read the first page. I, I really trust the reader. I, you know, the type of books I write, I have to.

Traci Thomas 18:59

Yeah,

Marlon James 19:00

I, I, you know, I trust that that page one would lead to page two will lead to page three, and you know, Jeanette Winterson's mom, her stepmom rather, was very anti-book. She was a devout sort of you know extreme Christian, and she was very much against books. But her reason for hating books was totally legit. I thought this is exactly what happens. This is the problem with a book, and she said in a British way, the problem with a book is that by the time you get too, by the time you get too far into it. It's too late. It's already dug its claws into you. It's too late. You can't get out now. And I'm like, that is the most wonderful description of reading a book I've ever heard from somebody who hates books.

Traci Thomas 19:53

Yeah,

Marlon James 19:53

I like to think that what I'm demanding of the reader is pays off. I want to think that even they bear it, they stick with it. That you know that you know it makes sense. I want to you know I take a lot of risk. I really hope I nail the landing, and I think my response from readers has been that. And some people do talk about how difficult it is because, among other things, they have to kind of learn a new language. They thought they're going to read English, and it is English, but they still have to learn it.

Traci Thomas 20:27

Yeah,

Marlon James 20:27

but you know, I, I, as I said, my, I, I, I have a lot of faith in readers. I actually think readers like to be challenged more than we think. I think readers like that to be challenged when there's nothing out, you get nothing out of it. I can understand that. That's a frustrating experience, but I think with my books, hopefully they learn something about human condition. They'll learn something about the extremes in which people would go. They have a lot to laugh at and laugh with, and they have a lot to cry at too.

Traci Thomas 21:03

So, do you like being considered difficult? Like, is that a badge of honor for you?

Marlon James 21:07

No, not necessarily. I, I, because I don't think I am, but I get why people think I am.

Traci Thomas 21:13

You don't think you are? How much contemporary fiction are you reading these days?

Marlon James 21:17

I'm reading a lot, and you're right. It's not. It's it's almost over easy. Yeah, a lot of books are over easy.

Traci Thomas 21:22

Books are so everything is like, and then he had a secret, and I'm like, okay, bitch, I know he had a secret. He just killed somebody. Like, I know there's a secret. Why?

Marlon James 21:34

Yeah, yeah. It's it's. I I I think there's a lot of books out there that don't trust their readers.

Traci Thomas 21:40

Yeah, I think you're right.

Marlon James 21:41

Or a lot of books out there that underestimate their readers, and that's weird. I don't think my readers are stupid. I don't think they're uninexperienced. I also think my readers read to learn things, so it's fine if they don't know. I certainly do. When when you when you sit down with somebody, or when somebody comes to your reading and talks about how the book transformed them, it's it's just always just uh you know such an amazing wonderful thing, you know wonderful thing to hear because I know I put my readers through the ringer they they they do have to run a gauntlet a little a little bit

Traci Thomas 22:18

yeah I mean I think it's worth it I just there's I there's nothing better than when you finish a book and you're like that was that that put like I had to work a little bit and you finish it and you're like I did that.

Marlon James 22:29

Yeah, I remember the first time I read because people because so many people see the films that they don't realize that Dickens is actually pretty difficult, and yeah, the first time I finished a novel like Bleak House, I'm like, it was hard, but I did that.

Traci Thomas 22:46

I did it,

Marlon James 22:46

and I understand it. And it's it's um, you know, I remember reading it. I'm like, I may have been like 14 or 15, maybe 16. I'm like, this is so tough, but I'm getting it. That's tough, but I'm digging it.

Traci Thomas 22:59

Yeah,

Marlon James 22:59

and what you end up with is that experience of literature, experience of art that you probably didn't think you could experience.

Traci Thomas 23:07

Yes, this is why I love Shakespeare because I think it is challenging and like worthy of the challenge. And you get to the end, and you're like, sure, like Act Four, Scene three in Othello, the scene between Desdemona and Amelia, the Willow scene. Like I'll read that play a million times to get to that scene, to get to that moment, like because it is just the payoff is there. Actually, I wanted to talk to you about Shakespeare a little bit. Your book is in a five act structure, and whenever I see that, I always instantly think of Shakespeare. Do you think of that at all? Like, are you thinking of Shakespeare when you do something in a five-act structure?

Marlon James 23:49

Um, not necessarily consciously, but I do think of Shakespeare all the time. So, um, my literature exam in high school, I didn't do very well, but I'd get something that was almost unheard of in that exam, which is a perfect score for the Shakespeare paper.

Traci Thomas 24:08

Okay,

Marlon James 24:09

so you know, which I'm still proud of. You know, I did that when I was like 16, and I still tell people that I say, you know, I got a, I got a perfect score for Shakespeare because, and a lot of reasons why I think one is that he just still speaks to the present human condition. There, you know, there's nothing about the world that you can't gain some insight from Shakespeare about. Yeah, it's as somebody who just loves words, just loves language. There, it's just so rich and so evocative and every now and then when it happens I'll go see a Shakespeare play done in the accent of the time of Shakespeare and that in itself is a whole other thing he loves putting on the word horde

Traci Thomas 24:57

yeah

Marlon James 25:01

Homie loves that pun, but yeah, I I think you know Hamlet, Macbeth, Othello, Lear. Lear is starting to make a lot more sense lately. You know, mad rulers. You know, vipers everywhere. The person in charge may be the looniest of all. Yeah, you know, every every year, every era, a Shakespeare play starts to take on way almost too much relevance. Yeah, and I think we're kind of in the King Lear era right now.

Traci Thomas 25:37

That's so. That's a good. I I I'm a big fan of Richard the Third.

Marlon James 25:40

That's my favorite Shakespeare play.

Traci Thomas 25:42

That's my favorite Shakespeare play, but I feel like right now we're. I feel like Trump feels Richard the Thirdian to me as well, in a lot of ways, especially the ways that he goes up against like women, like the people who always are calling him out end up being the women, which I feel like tracks. I think I think Lear is also really good, maybe like a combination of the two, but the just like brazenly taking things.

Marlon James 26:06

To me, he's more of a Lear in a sense of having immense power, still wanna want people to to to kiss his ass no matter what, and isn't even and have a lot of power, but isn't quite aware of the situation he's in.

Traci Thomas 26:20

Oh, so you're okay. You're giving him more. You're giving him a generous edit. I'm giving him a much more cynical edit.

Marlon James 26:27

See, I think he's a. I'm thinking he's not worthy of being Richard.

Traci Thomas 26:31

Sure, he's not.

Marlon James 26:32

Because I actually think Richard is quite bright.

Traci Thomas 26:34

Richard is quite bright.

Marlon James 26:36

And Lear, you and Lear. Honestly, Lear is actually not that bright. He's way too arrogant to be bright.

Traci Thomas 26:42

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Marlon James 26:44

I I I think in some ways he wants to be Richard the Third.

Traci Thomas 26:48

Yeah.

Marlon James 26:49

In some ways to me, he's like in some ways to me Trump is like a sort of a corrupt, deranged Coriolanus.

Traci Thomas 26:58

Sure. I mean, Shakespeare has so many people who fit this moment. He was so interested in power and the shifts of power and the overtaking of power. Absolutely, and and and also like the just the force of it all. That I think there's a lot of yeah, yeah. Coriolanus is such a good one. Such a good one too.

Marlon James 27:19

But all the history plays are about all the histories are about power.

Traci Thomas 27:22

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Marlon James 27:24

Richard Henry, Henry, you know all of them. They're all about power. It's funny because sometimes the history histories can be more depressing than the tragedies.

Traci Thomas 27:34

Yes, I think that's right. I I love. There's so many of the tragedies that I love, but I also feel like I am often like bored of them right now. Like I'm so much more interested in like in like a Winter's Tale or a Measure for Measure. I think I mean I think Measure for Measure has current moment parallels. Certainly, like the corruption of ideology and religion and beliefs and purity and you know I mean I think Measure for Measure, I could sit and think about for forever and ever, and I just I do really love that one. I think that the tragedies are almost like too clear for me sometimes that I want something that's like a little messier, and I think the histories and then like the sort of late comedy romance problem plays do that so well.

Marlon James 28:20

Yeah, I, I um, which is the way in which we probably wouldn't have thought 20 years ago, or even 100, or certainly not 100 years ago, where we thought tragedy was art defined.

Traci Thomas 28:30

Yes,

Marlon James 28:31

and and to an extent they are, but we we move in the world differently. We know a little bit more about how the world works.

Traci Thomas 28:40

Yeah,

Marlon James 28:40

and I think no, we'd be more interested in the background intrigue that led to Hamlet's father's murder than the murder itself.

Traci Thomas 28:49

Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I think that Disappearers is sort of a problem play, right? Like, because it has it has like these big questions and these big issues, and you want it to sort of like lay down nicely. This is a revenge novel, easy, or like this is a novel about friendship, or like this is a novel about a tragedy. But you really don't give us that. It really does feel like there is, you know, humor when you don't. You sort of like don't want to laugh at parts. But I'm. I couldn't help myself. Like there's one scene in the book where you're in Paul Royle's house, who is this sort of elder statesman politician guy, who is you know closeted, but everyone it's sort of an open secret in the gay community, and he's getting a blowjob and he's having a conversation, and I thought that that scene was so fucking funny and so disturbing, and it it reminded me of like I I mean I was laughing and then I I texted a friend who I knew had read the book already and was like did you think the book was funny like do you think this book is funny because like I kind of think it's funny and he was like no no it's definitely funny and I was like well nobody's saying it's funny everybody's saying it's violent I'm like it's violent but it's funny there's a funny blowjob seed. And so I do feel like the like problem play of it all of like I shouldn't be laughing or I shouldn't be having fun is the thing that makes that makes for such good art where it's like the reader the consumer feels conflicted. It's like what is Marlon James telling me?

Marlon James 30:17

Yeah, I think that's true. I think I think art should make you art should art should make you feel away as we say in Jamaica. Yeah, I mean art is art should start some conflicts in your head. Yeah, one of the things you know, I was watching um this show on TV Furiosa, not Furiousa, Furious, Furious,

Traci Thomas 30:37

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Marlon James 30:38

Furious, and one of the things that that furious really spun my mind about is that here's a a serial killer story where you're supposed to root for the killer, and um and it's not like the killer is some sort of clean killer where every killing is justified. Homegirl kills some of the wrong people.

Traci Thomas 30:57

Okay,

Marlon James 30:58

she kills some of the wrong people, and yet you're still you're like there's a part of me that go oh please let her kill all of them please let me give me that and I'm like what does it say about me that I'm here rooting for the villain when you realize what he's doing you go oh well I mean it's kind of extreme but it's still a mission I'm here for it I'm like I got your back girl

Traci Thomas 31:21

well but like, what does it say about us? Because I'm also I'm very pro villain. I like a bad guy. I I like a bad guy in literature. I like a bad guy in sports. Like my favorite athletes are always the ones who are getting in trouble, doing bad things, have a bad attitude. What do you think that like what what's wrong with us, or maybe what's right with us?

Marlon James 31:41

I think I think we have a feeling that good people are lying to us. I think we sometimes have an idea that nice people are pretending.

Traci Thomas 31:50

Sure, sure

Marlon James 31:51

which is sometimes true. You know, the bad guy is what makes a story interesting. It's it's if for no other reason, it gives somebody, it gives it gives the world somebody to unite against.

Traci Thomas 32:04

Yeah,

Marlon James 32:05

it sometimes it gives people purpose.

Traci Thomas 32:08

Yeah. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we are gonna come back and talk about violence for a little bit. Okay, we're back. Um, I everything I've heard from you, people have focused so much on the violence in the book, and it's there. And I do want to talk about it, but I don't want to talk about it necessarily. Maybe in the same way I've heard you talk about, you know, how you know if you do go too far with violence, it ends up becoming sort of like pornography. If there's no feeling behind it, if people don't feel sort of the pain with it, if it feels like movie violence, you know, like someone gets shot and they run away, and like they're not actually like they're bleeding out on the ground, it can feel almost like desensitized to it. And in this book, like you mentioned, there is this gay bashing that happens by this mob, and I'm wondering for yourself as a gay man, as a writer, do you feel or do you have any rules for yourself about how far you'll take certain things or what you will or won't put on the page?

Marlon James 33:15

Yeah, I'll go as far as I can to keep the integrity of the victim.

Traci Thomas 33:20

Okay,

Marlon James 33:21

I think there comes a point where you stop being a witness and start being a voyeur.

Traci Thomas 33:26

Okay.

Marlon James 33:27

If if you know if a woman is being attacked in my scenes, there is no reason for me to describe her underwear. Sure. You know, then you you no longer witness your voyeur.

Traci Thomas 33:38

Right.

Marlon James 33:39

And it's tricky because you want. I want the scene raw and I want them visceral, but I also want people to remember that these are humans in the scene, even if they're at their worst or going through the worst.

Traci Thomas 33:50

Right.

Marlon James 33:51

And we've all seen. We see sometimes in the news. We see sometimes where even though they're they're doing a story on somebody, they're clearly exploiting this victim.

Traci Thomas 34:00

Right.

Marlon James 34:01

And I think that's the difference for me. It's it's as as long as I don't fall into that trap where I am exploiting and sensationalizing the victim is an exploitation too, where I because I like to think that when I write, I become this sort of reporter for imagined people, and like a reporter, I want the complete story. But like a reporter, I'm not going to put my prejudices and my biases and my, you know, narrow worldview into the story. I'm not. I'm not the opinion journalist. I'm the reporter.

Traci Thomas 34:35

Right. But when you're making it up, it's a fiction novel. You're creating it. How do you prevent from putting your own biases and opinions and things into it? How do you know that you're not doing that?

Marlon James 34:47

I mean, a lot of practice, but also when I write, I I like to throw the book to the characters.

Traci Thomas 34:53

Okay,

Marlon James 34:54

and I feel like I'm just hanging on for the ride. I love I love. Early 18, you know, early 18th and 19th century novels, but all that authorial intrusion, I just couldn't do. And I get, you know, I get why, I get why it's there, but I, you know, I, I, I leave the characters to tell me what they want to say. I leave the characters to tell me what they want to do. I leave the book to define its process. I don't impose my willpower on a book because I've done that before, and the results weren't great. So even something like violence or sex, because there's a lot of sex in this novel.

Traci Thomas 35:34

Yeah,

Marlon James 35:35

it can be a scene where, when we leave it, we think lesser of the characters.

Traci Thomas 35:41

I want to talk a little bit about Jamaica. That's where you're from. You obviously are writing about Jamaica in this book. You know, it's been touted as your return to Jamaica from, for from a literary standpoint. Do you do you feel any type of way about how people outside of Jamaica will receive Jamaica through this story? Do you do you care about that? Do you worry about that?

Marlon James 36:09

Um. Yes and no. I think anybody who has a sensationalist idea of Jamaica will get it from anywhere.

Traci Thomas 36:18

Sure.

Marlon James 36:19

Um. You know, nobody nobody reads "Girl with a Dragon Tattoo" and go, "Oh my God, Sweden! They they be killing girls over there. Yeah. Yeah. If anything, Sweden's tourism probably went up.

Traci Thomas 36:30

Sure.

Marlon James 36:31

But then, whenever it's whenever the person is Caribbean or black or a woman, you know, they think everything is representative.

Traci Thomas 36:39

Right.

Marlon James 36:39

You know, if if a woman kills a man in a story, there's another side that women are out here killing men. You know, is Jamaica homophobic to an extent? Of course. Some of the most some of the violent scenes in the book were actually real stories that I changed the names, but I still think it's complicated. I think that the world of Jamaica, the Jamaican 2025, 2026 rather, is very different from the 2005 that I wrote about.

Traci Thomas 37:13

Right.

Marlon James 37:14

The 2005 was, you know, is the Jamaica I left. I left in two years following that. But at the same time, while I think there's something a little-not a little-there's something a lot racist in reading books like mine and then making a conclusion about an entire country,

Traci Thomas 37:31

right?

Marlon James 37:32

Or an entire people, which is not done when a white novelist does it. It's not done when a European novelist does it. It's only done when when so called minorities do it, and and and and also, but it's on both sides because then you have people in Jamaica who want me to play that role, where you know you're supposed to be representing the country, you're supposed to represent the tourist board, you're demeaning us. So it's on both sides. When I just think the only responsibility that I have are to my characters, and to tell, you know, to tell, you know, the best story, you know, to tell the best story that I that I can tell. At the same time, you know, one of the things I do want to do with my books is shine a light so the cockroaches can scatter. Yeah, I'm very much interested in that. I'm very much interested in shining that light.

Traci Thomas 38:20

Yeah.

Marlon James 38:20

Regardless. Regardless, regardless of whether people like the lights been shone on them or not,

Traci Thomas 38:26

right? I'm always so interested in that kind of question because because of the racism that like that you're getting at, that's like so inherent in sort of turning any outside group perspective into like the end all be all, because it really points to the fact that maybe we should have like more Jamaican writers, right? Like if there, if it wasn't just you that everybody knew, you wouldn't have the same. Like it wouldn't feel as much pressure, and and also and also just inherently, like you're saying, in certain places, and I think we could be fair. Like white readers want to make decisions about entire countries or groups of people based on those based on those books. But I I also know that that's the truth. So that's something that must something that you must think about even a little bit. Like,

Marlon James 39:14

yeah, absolutely. But as I said, you know, if Girl with a Dragon Tattoo was my book, I think tourism meant to have shut would shut down in Jamaica.

Traci Thomas 39:26

Does it feel different for you? Like now, I know you go back. I know you have a home there now. Like, do you feel surprised, sort of, like at the trajectory of your life? Like, could could 2027 Mar or 2007 Marlon like have fathomed this?

Marlon James 39:42

Oh God, no! And 2007 Marlin had already published a book. No, I didn't. You know, I tell people I am the worst person to have a carees day because my life makes no sense. I when I. You know, pick up something you gave up when you're 21 and hope for the best.

Traci Thomas 40:04

Right, right, right, right.

Marlon James 40:06

It's, it's. I can't imagine it. Which is one of the reasons why. I mean, I get when people talk about how writing is hard. I know people who are so depressed by making their art. I really wonder why. Why continue? Even when I'm writing harrowing stuff, and I've written some harrowing stuff, writing is always, if not fun, it's fun most of the time. It's always an adventure. It's always an experience. I always learn something from it.

Traci Thomas 40:34

Yeah.

Marlon James 40:35

And and there are times when I still can't believe I get to do this.

Traci Thomas 40:39

Yeah. Speaking of learning things from your books, I I read somewhere I don't know I heard you say something I don't know I've been listening to a lot of you over the last week so I don't know where I've heard half of these things but you talked about how you had to do research for this book even though the 1980s and 90s and 2000s early 1000s of Jamaica this was what you lived you didn't live necessarily in the same scene as your characters, so I'm wondering for you, like, were there any things that came up in your research that sort of like surprised you or made you question yourself or your memory of that time?

Marlon James 41:12

Um, I'm wondering. Well, well, certainly a lot of a lot of um a lot of the stories were about the world that I ran away from.

Traci Thomas 41:23

Yeah.

Marlon James 41:24

So the idea that people even had lives, the idea that people celebrated, the idea that some of these gay men have been living in families from the 80s, some from the 70s, surprised me. It blows my mind that at one time Kingston had around five different gay bars,

Traci Thomas 41:41

yeah,

Marlon James 41:42

because I'm amazed now when it has one. You know, just how how open and and free and how much filled, full of promise the 70s had for equality for everybody that got shut down by a whole bunch of things, you know, how many how how real events tie into a lot of of of of what's going on? I don't know. I um I was mostly surprised. It's not surprised, but well, yeah, surprise could be the word because as interviewing people who lived the life I was so afraid to live. So let's start with they live the life, which you know I'm worried. Think, oh my God, it must have been horrible, the discrimination and blah blah blah. That's why I ran to church because church promised to make me straight, and it did a bang up job of that.

Traci Thomas 42:38

Yeah, way to go, church.

Marlon James 42:40

I'm like, yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 42:42

Nailed it.

Marlon James 42:43

I'm all about the chicks now. Yeah, the day-to-day life, the day-to-day resistance, in a way, the day-to-day challenging of authority and norms, even without knowing that they're doing it, is something that I just, I just didn't know.

Traci Thomas 43:00

Yeah. Does it make you has has any of those conversations or any of the things you've learned made you feel differently about how you're living your life now? Like, has it made you go like full like carpe diem or no?

Marlon James 43:14

I mean, to an extent, yeah. That um, you do learn from the people who who are around and the people who didn't survive, that life is precious and life is something you should make the most of for whatever period of it you have.

Traci Thomas 43:32

Yeah,

Marlon James 43:33

I talked to people who knew people who died of AIDS and who were like, fine. Unlike a lot of people I know my check off date, my checkout date. You know, let's get as much as as you know, get as much as we can because it's easy when you are a discriminating minority to just run into your closet or your bedroom or your whatever they put you or whatever whatever way in which they find a way of hurting you and narrowing you, and sometimes you may even feel safe in that spot.

Traci Thomas 44:05

Yeah,

Marlon James 44:06

except it's not safety, you know. It's it's it's a stalemate, and then as soon as they can they can comfort you in that spot too.

Traci Thomas 44:13

Yeah.

Marlon James 44:14

Um. So, and I realized also that for a lot of these character these men I met, and a lot of characters in the book. Survival was triumph enough.

Traci Thomas 44:25

Yeah, one of the things I always like to ask people about is how do you name your characters? This book has approximately 794 people in it. How did you name them all?

Marlon James 44:38

Sometimes the names just come. Sometimes, you know, the the names just, you know, I hear them and go, I must. One of these days, I'm going to name my character like that. I always knew I was going to name my character Havelock. It took a good 10 years to finally give it give a character the name. Sometimes they just happen, like George. Or Eddie with with a you know Eddie with a Y

Traci Thomas 45:02

yeah,

Marlon James 45:03

I have to be in the scene and the characters kind of tell me their names.

Traci Thomas 45:07

And how about how do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often? I know you've talked about having jazz music before. Do you listen to music as you're writing? Are you in the home? And then this part's important: snacks and beverages or rituals.

Marlon James 45:24

Yep. So I I am in the home or I am at or I am at an office, which is not really an office. It's the novelist. It's the writer John Ray's upstairs bedroom. Why I am in upstairs bedroom working when he's below me, I don't know. I just, I just, I just work, and I actually keep, I keep work hours. I start writing at around 11. I stop at six. I don't care if I'm in the middle of a sentence. I stop middle of a sentence. I, I write every day, except, except actually, I don't really write on the weekends. As I say, I keep work hours. I am a big believer that if you set a routine, a ritual, a practice, whatever you want to call it, the muses will show up. And I'm a big, you know, I'm a big believer, a big believer in that. I mean, God bless people who write when they're inspired. I haven't been inspired to write since I was nine Years old, I'm like, I do the work.

Traci Thomas 46:24

Yeah,

Marlon James 46:24

and and I think doing that, you know, it's funny. I don't have to tell a dancer about practice.

Traci Thomas 46:34

Yeah,

Marlon James 46:34

I don't have to tell a painter about practice. I certainly don't tell a musician about practice. I always have to tell writers. You know you need to practice this, right?

Traci Thomas 46:42

Yeah.

Marlon James 46:43

It's like dancers don't wait on inspiration; they'll never work.

Traci Thomas 46:47

Yeah.

Marlon James 46:48

So yeah, to me, I I show up, but I also don't put pressure on myself. A day spending looking at it on the screen can be writing.

Traci Thomas 46:58

Yeah.

Marlon James 46:59

You know, a day where you just read instead of writing is writing.

Traci Thomas 47:03

What about snacks and beverages?

Marlon James 47:07

Snacks and beverages. I, you know, it's funny because I have such conflicted relationship with the British. Meaning, I despise them as much as I love them. But I have no conflict about tea. I'll drink like five or cups of five, six cups of tea a day, usually Earl Gray or some form of black tea.

Traci Thomas 47:27

Marlon, we are soulmates. I love a black tea. That's what I have right here with milk and sugar, like a real British person.

Marlon James 47:32

Yeah, man too. Well, I don't. Yeah, there's a tea from Harney Tea

Traci Thomas 47:40

Harney & Sons? I love them. Oh my god!

Marlon James 47:43

I love, I love, I love that they have no microplastics. That's what I love.

Traci Thomas 47:47

Oh, okay. So you go tea bag. You don't go like strainer, loose leaf strainer.

Marlon James 47:51

I go. I mean, I have loose leaf, but but Harney solved the problem by just not having microplastics.

Traci Thomas 47:57

Got it. Got it.

Marlon James 47:58

So Harney's black bourbon tea should be outlawed.

Traci Thomas 48:02

Okay, I'm gonna get some.

Marlon James 48:03

Be outlawed.

Traci Thomas 48:04

I'm gonna get some.

Marlon James 48:05

And then they have this thing called vanilla camora, and I'll mix them together.

Traci Thomas 48:09

The two teas. You take a tea bag of each.

Marlon James 48:11

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 48:13

Okay. So I'm so excited.

Marlon James 48:15

I'm drinking. I'm drinking tea all day because coffee makes me paranoid. Usually, either have a scone or those Belvita biscuits that like to tell you they're healthy and they're probably not. and and that's what I snack on, and then I lied to my trainer and said, "Oh yeah, I had carrots on hummus."

Traci Thomas 48:36

Always so much carrots. What about a word you can never spell correctly on the first try.

Marlon James 48:42

Word I can never spell traveler.

Traci Thomas 48:45

Ooh,

Marlon James 48:46

because because Americans use 1l and bridges use two, or it's the other way around. See, I don't know.

Traci Thomas 48:51

I don't know. Well, a word I cannot spell is the title of this fucking book. I apparently I can't spell disappear or disappearer. I can barely pronounce the title. Yeah, it's not a word.

Marlon James 49:02

I don't think Disappear is an actual word.

Traci Thomas 49:05

No, it's not a word. Which I, which is what's hard about it, is that I for disappear. I always want to put 2s's and 2p's, but there's only 1s and 2p's. But with disappearers, because it's not a word, I'm not getting a spell check that I know that the red line is coming up. So there's no help for me. I already know it's not a word, and then it's like really, it's been. This is my least favorite part of the whole book. Is that it's been a real challenge trying to write about it on the internet because I know I've spelled it wrong on plenty of Substack posts.

Marlon James 49:35

Yeah, it's funny because the the title comes from a Sonic Youth song called "Disappearer."

Traci Thomas 49:40

Got it

Marlon James 49:41

from their album Goo, and it just made sense because it's not just the two people who are disappearing. A lot of disappearing acts are happening in that book.

Traci Thomas 49:51

Yeah, yeah. So so many. Earlier this year, someone asked me what I was hoping like the trend for books this year would be like to predict the trend, and I feel really vindicated because I said that 2026 was going to be the year of the revenge book, and I am thrilled to feel like I really nailed it. And when I got earlier in the year, I kind of like could predict it because I could see what was coming. But I so thrilled. What do you What do you think about right now? Is exciting to write about revenge?

Marlon James 50:22

Well, yeah, because there's so much we're not in control of. There's so much that's working against us. There's so much that's unfair.

Traci Thomas 50:29

Yeah,

Marlon James 50:30

and um, and we're trying to be humans. We're trying to be rational people. We can't go out there and do these things ourselves, and we shouldn't. Um, but I am all for reading about it.

Traci Thomas 50:40

Yes,

Marlon James 50:41

I, I am, I am all for some righteous justice. I am all for, you know, settling scores. You know, a lot of the people in my book are based on real people, and I hope they see themselves because I meant it

Traci Thomas 50:54

Yeah

Marlon James 50:54

you know, the kids who picked on me in school there and there. I am not above being petty with a novel. I'm, you know, I'm not above taking cheap shots. I'm not about, yeah, we were not friends, you know. So, so I'm here for the revenge novel,

Traci Thomas 51:13

Marlin. I have to tell you, we have like so many people we know in common, and so many people said to me when I told them that I was going to get to talk to you, they were like, "You're gonna love him. He's totally your kind of person. But hearing you talk about not being above the petty-that's really the tea, the Shakespeare, but the revenge and the pettiness. This is what's sealing it for you and I. I think we're gonna have a long friendship.

Marlon James 51:36

I tell people, "Don't underestimate how petty I am."

Traci Thomas 51:38

Yes, never, and I'll remember too. You'll do something bad to me, like some little thing, and I'll like write it down, or I'll just hold it in my heart. I there's someone that I want to get revenge on, but I'm waiting until I have an opportunity to do it on the Oprah Winfrey Show. Like I'm like waiting.

Marlon James 51:54

I told somebody. I I yeah. I don't know. I still have vendetta against against somebody in my old neighborhood, and they go when went back. I go 1979, which on bitches on site

Traci Thomas 52:09

On site. No, I I feel this. Okay, we're almost out of time. I just want to ask you two more questions. I always ask everybody this for people who love the disappearers, for all the people who have purchased the book, who are reading it right now, what is a book that you would recommend to them that is in conversation with what you've done here?

Marlon James 52:30

I would say Jessica Hagedorn's Dog Eaters. Some people disappear in that book too. The best way I can describe Dog Eaters is that it's one of the finest books about Jamaica ever written, except it's set in Manila.

Traci Thomas 52:45

Okay,

Marlon James 52:48

and talk about literature being a universal language. I read that and I understood it because I know that I know that city. I've never been to Manila, but it's like when I first landed in Naples. I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I know this. I'm like, you can't come to me, dude. I saw you a mile away. I live in Naples. It's called Kingston.

Traci Thomas 53:09

Yeah,

Marlon James 53:09

you know, I live in Naples. It's called Mexico City.

Traci Thomas 53:12

Right

Marlon James 53:13

You know, or or Manila. And to read that book is the the shock of recognition. When you come from the cities we come from, whether it's New Orleans or Kingston. Two things are always happening: a general election or a beauty contest. And dog eaters for me, it's more political than my book.

Traci Thomas 53:31

Okay,

Marlon James 53:32

and it's about a third the length, if not a quarter the length, but it's just as wide in scope. It's a multitude of characters, most of them pretending to be something they're not, and they're all reeling from an intensely corrupt regime, and they're refeeling now how that corruption from above filters right down into the street.

Traci Thomas 53:56

We're a week into the book being out as we're recording this, and it's doing great by all accounts. It's a national. It's a not a national book award. Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself.

Marlon James 54:06

Ooh, I'll take that!

Traci Thomas 54:07

I hope so. I hope so. But it's a Booker longlisted book, and it's everywhere. And I'm just wondering for you as a human being, what does it mean for you to have a book that you've talked about being so personal, be so well received.

Marlon James 54:24

It's it's it's really sort of um, and I'm sure I'm not sure I've been able to process it. Your times I'll read a review, and I just sort of it's sort of out of body. You know, I I call it a classic. What am I supposed to do with that. I certainly can't go well. Of course, because like everybody, I'm the one person who thinks my book ain't shit. It's it's it's wild, and it's also it's honestly it's kind of great. Yeah, I I. You know, I have no mixed feelings about stuff like that. I absolutely love it. It kind of reminds me when somebody asks Jake Gyllenhaal once, "How does he feel about being on sexiest men list? And it's like, "Please, I love that shit. Yeah, he says, "As long as you don't lose, as long as you don't get too caught up when you're not on the list next year.

Traci Thomas 55:20

Yeah, yeah,

Marlon James 55:22

so. So I, I, I think it's fantastic. I didn't think about that when I was writing it because it was just such a personal and intimate book. Even though the book is such a such a big scale, you know, you always wonder what would people think of a book because you know, for me, I invest so much of time and you know just living energy into it. So when you know when people get it, it's great.

Traci Thomas 55:50

Yeah. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read the disappears. Who would you want it to be?

Marlon James 55:56

Oh God, probably Toni Morrison, who's you know my my mother and goddess in all things.

Traci Thomas 56:02

Yeah, well, can I tell you what I said about the book when I reviewed it? I said that to me, this feels like your moment of going from like your Song of Solomon to your beloved. This feels like

Marlon James 56:18

oh my god.

Traci Thomas 56:19

This feels like the leap.

Marlon James 56:20

You just you just want me to cry on camera.

Traci Thomas 56:22

No, I don't. I don't want you to cry. I won't know what to do if you start crying. I'll just hang up on you. But I do. I feel like I feel like as a reader, it is one of my great privileges to be able to read books in real time, as people are putting them in the world, and get to witness a thing that I have learned, you know, in reading Toni Morrison after she died, because I'm newer to her work, and seeing the jump, like seeing the difference between Sula and Paradise, and being like, right, like she has changed as a writer, and getting to see that in your books in real time, like it was thrilling to me. I could just, I feel, I can feel things that have changed in your work and in your and your process, and like how you've refined things, and you're pushing yourself, and like it's such a gift to a reader to be able to read an author who is attempting the art, like you are, you're not sitting in your skill. I can just feel that you're attempting things, you're trying things, you're pushing, and it is just-it's such a gift to us. So I speak for myself and anyone else who likes you, not the haters. That thank you, thank you for continuing to do the thing.

Marlon James 57:38

Oh, thank you so much. It's-it's you know, I I am funny enough I'm amazed when people talk about how they have the courage to write. I'm like I I'm terrified when I'm writing a book. I'm scared shitless. I'm like this is a book that's gonna crash.

Traci Thomas 57:54

Sure. but you write it anyways. That's the courage part. That's why I do it anyway because I got six-year-olds. Courage is not being not scared. Courage is being scared and doing it anyways. It's doing it.

Marlon James 58:08

Which is what I do.

Speaker 5 58:09

Yeah,

Marlon James 58:09

I do it anyway, and you know, it's it's just you know again, writing can be such a private thing, and when it's out in the public, sometimes a lot of writers don't know what to do with themselves, and I'm not sure I know either.

Traci Thomas 58:24

Yeah,

Marlon James 58:24

but the response has just been so incredible, and the way in which people are talking about it, I yeah, they part of me like, this book, I say, I just wrote it, but it's been it's been phenomenal, and I am really I really appreciate it.

Traci Thomas 58:47

Well, this has been phenomenal also talking with you today, and I'm so excited for you. I'm rooting for you on all things, and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us. And I need a few years before you give me another 600 page book, though. So take a break on that trilogy, okay? I'm not ready for the trilogy. I'm too intimidated. But Marlon, thank you so much for being here. It's just such an honor. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Marlon James for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to the team at Riverhead, Laura Elsesar, Bianca Flores, and Ashley Garland. Our book club pick for September is "Brother, I'm Dying" by Edwidge Danticat, which we will discuss on Wednesday, September 30th, with our guest Natalie Green. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it. Head to Patreon.com/thestax to join the Stacks Pack, and check out my newsletter at Traci thomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod on Instagram, Threads, and YouTube. And you can check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support provided by Grace Barry and Sheree Marquez. And our theme music is from Tagurigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Traci Thomas
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Ep. 441 Finding Healthy Heat with Priya Parker