Ep. 404 The Best Books of 2025 with MJ Franklin and Greta Johnsen

Written By Stacks Assistant

It’s finally the episode we’ve all been waiting for: The Stacks' Best Books of 2025! Traci talks with two longtime friends of the show, Greta Johnsen, host of Happy to Be Here, and MJ Franklin, an editor at The New York Times Book Review, to share our top 10 books of the year. We discuss the overall year in books, why we struggled to create this list, and all the books we’re looking forward to reading in 2026.

The Stacks Book Club pick for December is Friday Night Lights: A Town, a Team, and a Dream by H.G. Bissinger. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, December 31st, with Joel Anderson.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:00

The good news is this year, nobody has agreed on a single book all year, so I think we're all gonna pick books that are rightfully best winner, best books of the year, because who fucking knows. Yeah, yeah.

MJ Franklin 0:12

Funny, because I feel like I have a sense of what books are in your top tier. Traci, I have no clue, Greta, what you are interested in, what you've been loving.

Greta Johnsen 0:23

Weirdest list over here. It's so weird I can't I can't wait.

Traci Thomas 0:33

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is finally time for the episode you've all been waiting for. It is the stacks best books of 2025 I am joined today by two longtime friends of the podcast, New York Times Book Review editor MJ Franklin and host of the brand new podcast. Happy to be Here, who you might also remember from the Nerdette podcast, Greta Johnson, today, MJ, Greta and I get together. We pick our 10 best books of the year. We also reflect on the year of 2025 and books. And of course, look forward to what we expect in 2026. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, a town, a team and a dream by HG Bissinger, which we will discuss with Joel Anderson on Wednesday, December 31. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks is linked in our show notes. If you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the stacks pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter, unstacked on sub stack, each place offers different perks, like community conversations, bonus episodes, virtual book clubs, hot takes and more. Plus, your support makes it possible for me to make this podcast the stacks every single week. To join, go to patreon.com/the stacks for the stacks. Pack and check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. All right, now it is time for us to get into the 10 Best Books of 2025. All right, everybody, it is the most wonderful time of the year. And I'm not just saying that because this episode drops on Christmas Eve. I'm saying that because we are doing the stacks 10 best books of the year episode, an annual favorite. This is always everyone's favorite episode, not least of which, because why wait, that's not a sentence, right? Yeah, we are joined by two of my favorite book people and two of your favorite book people, the wonderful Greta Johnson and the equally wonderful MJ Franklin. Welcome back to the stacks, both of you.

MJ Franklin 2:52

Thank you for having us back. I feel like last year we just had, like, a huge love fest last year, and we were just like, we love these books. We love each other.

Traci Thomas 3:00

Except for one thing. What did you do last year, Greta?

Greta Johnsen 3:05

You know, I knew you were gonna give me shit for this again. Traci, I like, really randomly right at the end, kind of like panic, picked a book, and it was the ministry of time, which I stand by. But I feel like you had a lot of qualms with that.

Traci Thomas 3:19

Well, that was our first book club pick this year here at the stacks, and the whole time I kept saying, well, it's probably going to get better, because Greta put her on our top 10. And for those of you who don't know, the way our top 10 works is that we each pick three books. We have not discussed which three books we've each picked. We all have a few backup books in case someone else picks one of our books, and then we try to come to a consensus on the 10th book. In previous years, it has been so easy to pick the sort of agreed upon 10th book this year, I don't know what's gonna happen. What I do know is that, because I don't vet the books and I let everybody pick their own books, Greta had a coup last year and picked a book 90% people hated. Made me almost change the rules this year. Almost had to be like, Okay, send me your book so I can read them all before I put my name on them.

MJ Franklin 4:07

I know I was gonna say I love the energy was like, best time of the year. My favorite people. Let's start Greta, what did you do last year?

Traci Thomas 4:21

What I love about you most is that you're both is that you're both accountable. Okay, okay, okay.

Greta Johnsen 4:29

It's so funny, because just this morning, I was like, I wonder how much shit Traci is gonna give me for this. And here we are

Traci Thomas 4:36

All consistent. You know, we're all consistent. The good news is, this is this year. Nobody has agreed on a single book all year. So I think we're all gonna pick books that are rightfully best winner, best books of the year, because who fucking knows.

MJ Franklin 4:51

Yeah, yeah. Funny, because I feel like I have a sense of what books are in your top tier, Traci. I have no clue, Greta, what you are interested in, what you've been loving.

Greta Johnsen 5:02

Weirdest list over here, it's so weird. I can't I can't wait.

Traci Thomas 5:07

For the first time ever for me, I am sitting in front of a list of about 11 books I have not actually picked my three books. I feel paralyzed by the choices I have, I feel like I would like to throw some curve balls in, but I'm also scared that you all won't be picking books that I think should be there, and then I'm gonna have to, like, reset to make sure that the right books make the list. So I want to know how you all are approaching this year's list.

MJ Franklin 5:41

Greta is just like, nervously laughing. Why don't you go first Greta

Greta Johnsen 5:47

Well, I have 12345, kind of seven books on this list. And I think Traci, it's, I mean, obviously you as the as the holder of the keys of this episode are, like, I think you probably feel a little more responsibility. I'm just like, full chaos. Like, I don't know, I don't know what's about to happen. Okay, I'm in this thing, and I'm sorry.

MJ Franklin 6:16

You're welcome. I'm sorry. I love the energy. Greta, what did you do? Already Greta's apologizing.

Greta Johnsen 6:23

Well, I think part of it, and I think you too, and I'm curious MJ to hear like, what your approach was to this too. But like, generally, like, there is no widely agreed upon, like, set of books, like there was last year. Like, this was a less good book year in general. So partly, I think it's like, sure, I liked a lot of books, fine, but like, especially in this, like, dumpster fire of a year, what brought me the most joy, I think, is like, as opposed to like, what is just unequivocally the best book, because there's no consensus on that. And then it's like, okay, well, like, which ones like, did I connect with the most strongly? So it is just like a weirder list. I think, in general, this year.

MJ Franklin 7:04

I agree, for me, I had, like, one book where I was like, this definitely has to be on here, and I'm not sure if other people would choose it. And then I had a whole tier of great books that I want to somehow get onto the list that I don't know what other people will choose. And so do I mention that first or last? Like, how do I game the strategy of composing the list so that I get the most as many of my favorites on this list? But then also, in terms of this year, I feel like I keep thinking about it as like an album. I feel like there are a lot of great singles, but this year as an album, wasn't working. Wasn't working for me

Traci Thomas 7:51

This year as an album, there were a lot of skips. I DNFed so many books this year. Just broadly, I don't finish books often, like I might start something and just put it down. I just forget, or like a deadline comes up, but I actively put down at least 20 different memoirs. I this year in memoir was so horrible for me that being said in my 11 books that I'm potentially going to talk about today, three of them are memoirs. So like, three of the books I really loved this year did end up being memoirs, but so many memoirs I read this year were so bad, like I was telling people, I think memoir as a genre is done, like memoir is failed genre. We have reached the mountaintop. We can never come back down. We can never do it again, like this. Is it? If you're writing a memoir, pen's down, babe, pencils down, it's over.

MJ Franklin 8:51

That's the weird part of this year. You're like, memoir is over. Out of my 11 I have three memoirs

Traci Thomas 8:58

Three memoirs, the chances that any of them actually make it on the list are low so, like, I don't know.

Greta Johnsen 9:05

MJ, how many titles are you like ruminating over, right? I'm just curious, like, what our total number is to see what it takes for us to get to our final 10.

MJ Franklin 9:14

I have five. I have five overall of that top tier, and then I have, like, a second tier where I'm like, I love these other people might not love them. This is, for me, something that we talk about a lot at a book review, is the difference between, like, a best and a notable or a best and a favorite. Like I as an editor and as like, someone reading all these books, I'm always trying to, like, bring myself and my own taste to the list, but also recognize that I'm one particular person with a set point of view and like, then I try to remove myself and recognize, like, Okay, I love this book, but is it a best book or, like, this is a best book, but is it a favorite book? Like, so for me, I have my five I love personally. I think they're the best. And then I have a tier of like, I think these are good, maybe not my favorites. And then I have my favorites, but maybe they're not best. And so then I'm just sorting through all of these.

Traci Thomas 10:09

I see, okay, most likely, if you guys are up for it, we should release the full list of all of the ones we were working through. Just like that does seem like a nice thing we could do that might just be a fun thing to do. That being said just broadly, approximately. I know, MJ, you don't track this. But like, How many books do you think you've read so far this year, and how many of them do you think came out this year?

MJ Franklin 10:34

I did track this this year. Last year, you gave me a challenge. You gave me a challenge, and I tracked it. So on my I keep them separate personal reading and work reading. On my personal reading list, I have read roughly 63 books this year, nice, okay. On my professional reading list, I have had to at least read into dip into 288 books this year.

Traci Thomas 11:01

Wow. I'm so glad you counted. That's crazy.

MJ Franklin 11:05

It's too many.

Traci Thomas 11:06

And how many of them do you think are 2025 books? I'm assuming the work ones mostly, but maybe the personal ones, not as much.

MJ Franklin 11:16

The Work ones are all 2025 books, and then the personal ones are, I want to say, like, 70% 2025, books.

Traci Thomas 11:26

Okay, okay. What about you, Greta, do you have a sense of how many books you've read so far this year?

Greta Johnsen 11:32

Yes, I did my homework. I counted today, 97 books. Okay, I didn't count how many are backlist I should have. I think it's probably about, I would guess it's like 15 to 20 our backlist.

Traci Thomas 11:49

Okay, so I, as of today, I've read 111 books. I'm lying. It's 112 I finished audition last night. I prepared before I finished the book. And of that list, 66 are from 2025 so about 58 59% the reason my reading is a little bit lower 2025 than normal, is because one of my reading goals this year was to read more classics. So a lot of the fiction I read this year was backlist, like deep backlist in many cases. You know, I was, I read Edith Wharton, I read Frankenstein, like I was really trying to read older books. So my fiction reading this year, I think I only read maybe 15 2025 novels. The rest was nonfiction. So I pretty much was like, if I'm reading fiction, it's going to be old, and if I'm reading non fiction, it's gonna be new.

MJ Franklin 12:43

Can I ask, did reading so much backlist change how you thought about current books? Did current books change how you thought about backlist? Part of the reason why I love like, reading back list or canon is you're like, oh, wait, this thing I've been seeing recently, this has its roots here. I have this greater appreciation for literary history and like, just the evolution of the novel or whatever a craft or a genre, did you see anything?

Traci Thomas 13:05

Yes, I would say, I mean, it's kind of become a running joke on the podcast, which is, since I read Frankenstein, I have talked about Frankenstein in every episode, because every book is at least attempting to be Frankenstein, like the hollow half that I read, I was like, this book is in conversation with Frankenstein. I mean, like, I don't know if I got it in my conversation with samin nosrat, but I'm pretty sure every other episode I've done since then, and even we read Friday Night Lights for book club this month. And there's a Frankenstein reference in Friday Night Lights. I'm like, It's everywhere. It's everywhere. So I think, like, I do think Frankenstein has been, like, really, in my brain.

Greta Johnsen 13:46

Can we agree that's the best book of 2025, can we just do it?

Traci Thomas 13:50

It is my number one book of the year. Like, I have to do my ranked reads. And I'm like, really torn about picking an old book as my best book of the year. But I'm just like, it was great. I mean, it's really a banger. She was 19. Like, everybody older than 19, if you haven't written Frankenstein, you're, you failed. Like, there's no, there's no anything else. Like, everyone's like, oh. Toni Morrison was 40 when she wrote The Bluest Eye. Like, okay, but Mary Shelley was 19 when she wrote Frankenstein

MJ Franklin 14:20

2025 being the year that Traci became a Mary Shelley Stan was not on my bingo card.

Traci Thomas 14:26

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I I'm like, all I do is scream about it. So I do feel like that book has really informed my reading. I also think reading classics makes new books that feel just okay feel even more okay. Like I'm just like, Okay. Well, no one's talking about that in five years.

MJ Franklin 14:42

This is just a full on tangent, but have you read Elif Bautman, who wrote The Idiot has this kind of controversial London Review of Books essay. It's called Get a real get a real degree, and it's a review of a history of like the MFA pro. Program, but she opens it with this idea of the MFA versus the PhD. If you're studying literature, the MFA teaches you about the craft of writing, the PhD teaches you about literary history. And one of her gripes is that in the MFA, there are constantly people feeling like they have invented something new. I have never done this. It's it's never been seen, this play with perspective, and then if you study the PhD, if you get a PhD, you're like, Wait a second. Jane Austen did that. And I know this because I'm studying and I feel like that's always something that I'm is in the back of my mind, like the innovations that we're kind of marveling over, do they have historical roots?

Traci Thomas 15:38

Yes, I agree. I agree. And I think, like, that's why I wanted to focus on Classics this year, because I was like, I feel like there's things that people are referencing that I'm missing. All right, ladies and gentlemen, I think we got to dive into this, into this list, because Greta has been really like, positive, joyful, telling us that her choice, she's locked and loaded. I'd like to go start with you. Chaos. Chaos Greta, what's your first pick?

Greta Johnsen 16:07

Locked and Loaded? Okay, gosh, this is so weird. I don't even Okay, great. We're gonna do good things by samin nosrat

MJ Franklin 16:16

oh, that is an unexpected one.

Traci Thomas 16:20

Okay, okay. I've read it. It is a good thing. Talk about it.

Greta Johnsen 16:25

It's not fiction. I think, as I said earlier, I feel like, I mean, especially last year, but so many years there are books where, you know, you finish it and you like, want to buy a million of them and like, force them into the hands of everyone you know and love. This year generally, just was not a year like that for me, but good things. Is definitely one of those books. It's samin's Second cookbook, of course. It's the follow up to salt, fat, acid, heat, which was critically acclaimed. I think it like changed the cooking landscape for most humans. It changed how we think about recipes. It definitely changed how I think about food in general. And it created, I mean, you know this, Traci, you just talked to her like it created such a shift for samin herself in terms of her own life and how famous she became, and how she reckoned with that. And this book feels like such a distillation of, like, all of those things. And it's a it's a cookbook. It's celebration of simplicity. It's a celebration of goodness. I think especially the chapter about dessert, just like, completely blew my mind, that idea. She talks a little about how, like, she has spent most of her life depriving herself of pleasures. And, you know, yes, we need protein and other like specific vitamins to survive. But our brains are also designed to appreciate sugar and so, like, why not let yourself have sweetness? I think is such a beautiful sentiment, especially in this, like, horrific hellscape of a year, you know, so it. I just like connected with it really strongly. And I think everyone should read it.

Traci Thomas 18:05

I love it. I've read it. I love to read a cookbook cover to cover. Somebody once said to me, I think when we actually did Samin's book for book club, we did salt, fat, acid, heat is our only time ever doing a cookbook for a book club. And like my guest, said that he liked to read cookbooks cover to cover, because you always get a happy ending. Every recipe is a happy ending.

MJ Franklin 18:25

I love that. Can I ask, Traci, are you surprised by this? I know you read this recently, and I was listening to your Unstacked ranking

Traci Thomas 18:34

I am a little surprised. I am a little surprised. I mean, I like the book. I'm of course, surprised that a cookbook would make our list, but I also I didn't think this was, like a perfect cookbook, because, like, I thought the organization of it was very confusing to my brain. That's interesting, yeah, but I liked it I cook. Here's the thing I've cooked from it so far. Not a problem, not a problem. So that is always good, but the organization was confusing in my brain, but I did like it. I think it's a good I think it's a beautiful cookbook. And I think I do think the like ethos behind it of sort of like, what does it mean to live a good life? What does it mean to like, build a life that you're that you are happy to be in, and that you find pleasure in and excites you is really important and almost like that this book could be not that I'm advocating for any more memoirs, but like that, samine's memoir will probably come out of this book. Do you know what I mean?

Greta Johnsen 19:32

Yeah, yeah. I think her own trajectory is really interesting. I think, you know, just like comparing the two books and how very deeply different they are, even though you can tell they came from the same brain and heart is so interesting.

MJ Franklin 19:46

Yeah, yeah. Greta, you mentioned the dessert. What she says about dessert? You should read the essay in defense of saccharin by Leslie Jameson. It's in her collection the empathy exams, and it's about sweetness and sugar. Girl and allowing yourself to feel and like how she just loves this, like artificial sweetener, and it's all, it's all. That's good stuff. It's great. You should read it.

Traci Thomas 20:07

Wonderful. I will. Okay. MJ, you're up next.

MJ Franklin 20:10

I am a little bit nervous because I feel like I'm gonna get yelled at. But my first book, We Do Not Part by Han Kang.

Traci Thomas 20:19

Why do you think you're gonna get yelled at?

MJ Franklin 20:21

Because this was a divisive book. The reason why is, it's about, it's this, like cerebral, hallucinatory, literary novel about, the short version is there's a documentarian who is kind of like spiraling after she worked on a documentary about a massacre in Korea, and then all of a sudden she gets this call from her friend who's like, I need you to help me. I was working on a memorial project, and I cut off on my fingers, and, like, I left my parent at my home on this island, and she has to go on this journey to the island. And that's like, you're you're not sure what's happening. There's a lot of stuck in the snow and a long scene at a bus stop, and you're like, Am I in Purgatory? And then she gets to the island, and who does she find there? But her friend who she's like, Wait a second. How are you here? I know for a fact that you're like, stuck in this hospital. A lot is going on. That's sounds like it. Here's my defense of this book. My defense of this book. It is so moving about care, family, history and the way that lives with us, whether we know it or not, the idea that we have to feel plain, feel pain and grapple with our country's sins. It is so smart on all of those it is, it is so intricate and smart. And you get the sense that I am reading a master at the top of her class. It is a book that is challenging, but I think everyone should read, and I think it's like, just like the all star stand out book of the year. So please don't yell at me. I love this book.

Traci Thomas 22:04

I'm not yelling. I'm not yelling. I sorry. I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have got, I didn't get mad at Greta last year until this year. I was confused because you loved Margo's Got Money Troubles. So no, you're you're free to pick what you want. Greta just picked a cookbook.

MJ Franklin 22:28

The reason why I'm saying, like, Don't yell at me is like, I know this is, people are going to read this and think, No. And we actually did this for the book review book club, and it was pretty divided. People were like, I didn't get it. I did not love it. It was, it was too much, I see. And so I feel like it will be a divisive one, but I feel like, give it a chance. It is a great book. Capital G, great. So that's, we do not part by Han Kang, is how you say her name,

Greta Johnsen 22:59

Okay, some that's vibes over plot. It sounds like, right?

MJ Franklin 23:02

Hell yeah.

Traci Thomas 23:06

That's the MJ way, vibes over plot.

MJ Franklin 23:09

again, stuck at a bus stop in the snow for however long you're not sure if it's real or if it's purgatory. That's that good ish, let me tell you

Traci Thomas 23:16

That's not vibes, that's that vibes on vibes. Vibes divided by vibes times vibes.

Greta Johnsen 23:22

Yeah, it's just like weird, grief, summer all over again.

MJ Franklin 23:25

Yeah, that's how I like it.

Traci Thomas 23:28

I am so I'm so pressed right now.

Greta Johnsen 23:32

Yeah, what are you gonna do? Traci, what are you gonna do?

Traci Thomas 23:35

Okay, I'm gonna save. I think my overall book, my like best, best best book for the end, because I think that I might be able to convince you guys to agree with me on it, but if not, I'm gonna move things around.

Greta Johnsen 23:49

I love the gymnastics we're all doing for this one.

Traci Thomas 23:51

I'm so wild this year, like this is this year has been impossible. Okay, I am going to go with my favorite read of the year. I do not think this is the best written book, but it is the most fun I had reading all year. It is the gods of New York by Jonathan mailer. This is a book about New York City from 1986 through 1990 it starts January 1, 1986 and goes all the way through to January 1 1990 The reason it's obviously not just because it's the first day of the year, but also because, in New York City, the mayor is inaugurated on the first of January, not on the 20th of January. So it starts with the beginning of Ed Koch's final term in office, and it is all about the fucking dudes in New York. There are some ladies in it, but mostly it's about these fucking guys. Okay, it's Ed Koch. It's Donald Trump. It's Rudy Giuliani. It is Spike Lee. It is Larry Kramer. It is all of the men. One and the crazy stories and the trials and the cases and the scandals that make up 1986 to 1990 in New York. So we're talking Central Park Five. We're talking do the right thing. We're talking Trump's basic like rise to Trumpdom. And one of the things I love about this book is that it is written. I think we talk a lot, especially in fiction, about like form meeting content, right? Or like that. The book should feel like the thing that it's talking about, and this book feels like a New York Post magazine, like it's gossipy, it's so salacious, it's so juicy. He clear, the author clearly has a point of view about all of these people, but not so much that he's telling you, but he's, like, making you agree with him, because, like, the adjectives are just so it's like a magazine. It's so great. It's so fun. I left the book being like, Trump is a one trick fucking pony. He's been doing the same shit. And here's what I'll say, the reason we have President Trump is because, unfortunately, we never got Mayor of New York City Trump, because that's the job he always wanted. This whole thing is him having beef with Ed Koch 40 years later. Okay, that's why he likes Mamdani. That's why he's flirting with Mamdani in the Oval Office, because he's like, this guy's the mayor of New York, and that's the coolest job there ever will be. Like, he loves Eric Adams. He loved Giuliani. He's just hot for the mayor of New York, period. It doesn't matter. Could have been Obama, if Obama had been mayor of New York. We don't ever get President Trump. Like, it's just such a fun book. It's so great, and it's a lot of history. Like, there's so many things that come up in this book that I'm excited like next year. Heather Ann Thompson has a book about Larry, about Bernie Goetz, the guy who shot the four kids on the subway, which happened, I think it happened right before this book starts, but it's brought up in this book. There's a book about Michael Stewart that also happened right before that comes out, that is brought up in this book. There's just so many pieces of like New York City history that are in this book that are fantastic. So I love this book. I had the best time. It's my favorite book, even if I think other books were better.

MJ Franklin 27:06

Can I ask why you hedged at the start? You said it's your favorite, but not the best.

Traci Thomas 27:10

Because I know that the writing isn't like great. I know that, like, he could have done more things. He could have done different, like, there's there was room for improvement, like, on a book level, but my enjoyment of it, like, I listened to the audiobook and was just like, what's a chore I can do so I could keep listening. I love it here. And like, usually with an audio book, I'll sort of zone in and zone out at parts, and if I caught myself zoning out at all, I'd like, go back 30 minutes and, like, re listen to a whole section. Like I just I had such a great time with it. So I don't know. I thought it was great, and maybe, like, I think it does exactly what it set out to do. But there were some, like, little bits that I was like, I don't know.

MJ Franklin 27:49

I'm writing this down. That sounds great. The it's written like a New York Post. I was like, sold. Count me in I mean, I don't read the

Traci Thomas 27:57

New York Post, so I don't know how it's written, but it just feels like the New York Post would be writing like this. Okay, Greta book number two.

Greta Johnsen 28:07

The pressure is so wild.

Traci Thomas 28:09

I know this year feels different.

Greta Johnsen 28:11

I'm gonna do one that I believe is on your list, Traci. And it's original sins by Eve L Ewing.

Traci Thomas 28:19

Yes, okay, that is on my list. I could cross it off. Eve, I fucking love you.

Go ahead all of Eve, I love Eve. MJ, have you read this one?

MJ Franklin 28:29

I haven't.

Greta Johnsen 28:30

Okay, it's nonfiction. I should have written.

Traci Thomas 28:33

Really? You have two nonfiction books on your list?

Greta Johnsen 28:36

I know, wow, what's the third one gonna be? We'll see. Stay tuned. We're all gonna find out together. Original sins is phenomenal. Eve L Ewing is just like the best, baddest bitch around, Chicagoan scholar, amazing nerd. Do you remember the exact subtitle of this book? It's like the The Miseducation...

Traci Thomas 29:04

The Miseducation of Black and Native Children and the Construction of American Racism?

Greta Johnsen 29:08

Yeah, there it is. Look, this book is phenomenal. I mean, it's, I think now more than ever, is a very good time for folks to educate themselves as much as absolutely possible about the racist origins of the United States. I think it's the the lens of education is a very interesting lens to explore a lot of aspects of racism that I think a lot of people are super familiar with these days. But I think it's very important, I mean, especially, to think about like, what we're putting children through, and what we what the United States has been super okay with putting children through for a very long time is something that we all desperately should know about. I kind of put off reading this one for a while because I was worried it would just like completely shatter and devastate me. Um, but I think Eve does a really beautiful job of exploring things and also making sure joy is still a priority in her writing. I think especially the conclusion of this book really beautifully looks forward in a way that is ultimately still deeply hopeful, which I think is also something we could all use more of right now. Yeah, um, so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's an essential read.

MJ Franklin 30:23

Yeah, I agree. Can I jump in with two recommendations about just like Eve in general, I'm such a big fan I haven't read this book, but I'm a big fan of her. Yeah, she does like everything. She's a sociologist, a great writer. She's a poet, a poet, she writes comics.

Traci Thomas 30:39

Yep, Marvel. She now owns a bookstore in Chicago. She's really just the best.

MJ Franklin 30:44

So my two recommendations are one, she was on an episode of the podcast normal gossip. Talking about that episode is so funny is about a crazy like Facebook dog park scam. It is so good. That episode is so good because of just how like vibrant Eve is, yes. And then the other is that she wrote a poem for the 1619 project when it came out, and it's about Phyllis Wheatley, who is one of those figures who, just like is such an inspiration to me. And I read about Phyllis Wheatley when I was a kid, and there are lines from that poem. So Phyllis Wheatley is the first black person in the states to have published a book, and she was born enslaved, and her life story is incredible, but she says in that that poem something like having to take these, like, literacy tests, and she's like, if I can prove I know Ovid, may I have my children back, or something like that. There are these lines that are just like, so searing. So just love Eve, and everything that she does is what I'm trying to say.

Traci Thomas 31:53

May I also recommend Eve's episode of the stacks. I don't know why you didn't. Okay. Thanks. MJ, big fan. No, Eve is amazing. But I want to just say one more thing about original sins, because I think people are intimidated by it. And like Greta, you were saying because you were worried it was going to be like, too depressing. And I was a little intimidated by it because I was worried it was going to be like, too smart for me, because I know Eve is so smart, but the book is so incredibly accessible. The amount of history that she distills for like a regular, degular reader. It gives you a sense of how smart she is, like that she can understand these complicated things so well and then write it for just like a normal person, like I would say that a high school kid would feel comfortable reading, like, if you were a teenager who, like, liked to read, yeah. And you know, wasn't like reading on chat, GTP or what, GPT, whatever the fuck it is. Like you could like it is accessible enough that, like people can read it, yeah. And so it makes it a much more enjoyable read, because you're not being like, what does this sentence mean? No, she's literally like, then they did this, but like, in beautiful Eve writing. And the last thing I want to say about Eve, since we all are obsessed with her, is that she is your favorite writer's favorite writer. Yes, yes. Everyone we love here at the stacks, they love Eve like, it's just Eve's the best, like, even people who don't even write are like, Oh, I met Eve Ewing. She's the greatest, and I feel this way. Oh, my god, I'm so glad you picked this, because this was in my top and I was like, how am I gonna finagle this whole thing?

Greta Johnsen 32:39

Okay, yeah. Well, the other thing I want to say about it is that it reminded me a lot, Traci of I believe it was a book you recommended last year poverty by America. Oh, yeah. And I don't think I recommend, I don't think that made the top but I did like that book. Um, I think they remind me of each other, because they're both deeply accessible, and they're both sort of the non fiction genre of like, the system isn't broken, broken. It's working exactly the way it was designed to, yeah, and I think especially right now, the more we can equip ourselves with that knowledge, the better we will be to be able to move forward and help make positive change.

Traci Thomas 34:21

I love it. I love it. We love Eve. Original Sin, all right. MJ, tough act to follow. See what you got.

MJ Franklin 34:28

Well, I think this is

Greta Johnsen 34:30

Pitting us against each other, Traci?

Traci Thomas 34:35

This is such a 2025 conversation. I feel like the energy is just big 2025 vibes.

MJ Franklin 34:42

Well, I was gonna be all like, Pollyanna and be like, well, that is actually my book recommendation. Works in tandem with what you just said, Greta, because my next one is, there is no place for us.

Traci Thomas 34:52

Oh my god yes, another one from my list!

MJ Franklin 34:54

I thought it might be

Traci Thomas 34:58

Wait, that one might be the one we could all agree on

Greta Johnsen 35:01

I haven't read it.

Traci Thomas 35:02

Oh, damn well, I don't think there's a book we've all read this year.

MJ Franklin 35:07

For me, I was like, I think this might be on traci's list. I think it may be on other people's list, but I am not gambling this one. Everyone should read it. It is have it has a spot in my list, similar to what Greta said about like the system is not broken. It's working exactly as it's intended to. This is about the invisible homelessness crisis, which is specifically the homelessness the working homeless people who are not frequently counted in census data about homelessness. That's either because they are staying in extended stay shelters. They're staying with families, but they do not have a home of their own, even though they are full time employed. And it is focused specifically in Atlanta. And it follows five families, and you're just following them as they enter homelessness and as they try to navigate it. And as you see, there are a variety of reasons why being homeless happens. It could be because of a fire burns down a house, and then they're evicted or and then they have to move, but then that counts as an eviction, so they can't rent again. It could be because the system of housing vouchers is so deeply nightmare, a nightmare. And what I love about this book is that it is by focusing so specifically on these families, it provides a microcosm for you to understand the whole system, and you see just like how one small thing can spiral because of the systems that we have in place. I have a quote that I wrote down about specifically, like housing vouchers and how that's supposed to be like a life raft, but they don't work. And Brian Goldstone writes he's talking about a woman named Britt who's looking for a home the problem she realized, wasn't that her rental applications were getting rejected. It was that there were no places where she could even apply. They like, there are these housing vouchers that are supposed to say, like, okay, work very hard. Stay on this waiting list. You will get a chance to buy a home or to rent a home, and then, because of variety of reasons, landlords don't want oversight, because of just housing availability, you can't get a home, and then your time runs out and you get, you lose a spot on that list. I'm going to go I'm rambling now about the details. What I will say is that this book was challenging and that it is so despairing. I felt so heartbroken for these families, and I think all readers will whether you knew about this homelessness crisis or not just being able to see the intricacies of it is so affecting and knowing things like the difference that will between a family losing their home and being broken up or being able to continue with their life is $200 in some instances, like the stakes are so high and the system is so broken and effed. It's something that I feel like every person should read. I think it works in tandem with your recommendation. Greta also just like the energy we just had the New York City mayoral election, and it's like the housing crisis here, affordability like this also taps into that. Is a book that will inspire you like it will teach you a lot. It is so good. It's a book that I think everyone should read

Traci Thomas 38:41

it's so good. Brian was on the podcast. I recommend that episode. Obviously this was one of my most anticipated books for 2025 I think it lives up to what I hoped that it would do. I think one of the other things different from Eve's book, and what I sort of like about both of these books is that they do similar things, talking about the systems and how they're designed. And Eve's book is like, a much more like, academic approach to that, like It's like she's presenting the history. She's laying it out to you. There's narrative elements, but Brian's book is much more journalistic. It's narrative. You're embedded with these families. He's doing the Matthew Desmond thing, which, of course, I love. Obviously, this book is a perfect pairing for invisible child or evicted. And while I think the book is like, extremely bleak and sad, and just like I remember reading it in the bathtub, and like feeling like my heart rate was going up because I was getting so frustrated, it is. It's such an important read. Every year I do my like list for she reads. And this is the book that I said that I would want every high school kid to read, because it also shatters this myth of like, if you work hard, you'll be fine. Like, it's just like, Oh no, babe. These people all have full time jobs. Like, that's the important thing. There's not a single county in the United States where if you work a full time, if you work for minimum wage, full time, that you can afford housing, that's a crime. That's the craziest thing ever. Yeah, so this book is full of gems, just like that. Also, this book takes on private equity Blackstone, the number one landlord in the country. Holy shit. I didn't know that Blackstone all up in those extended stays, babe. And not the only one. I just personally have a vendetta against black against Blackstone for personal reasons.

MJ Franklin 40:24

My tip for readers with this one too, is pay attention to where you are and what you're surrounded by as you're reading this. Because, for instance, I read this while I was waiting for a book event to start. So I was like outside in like South Street Seaport in New York City. There's so much casual wealth around. And so I was so aware that, like, wow, I'm just surrounded by, like, money, money, money. There are people elsewhere who, again, for like, literally $200 for your party to go out and have a drink. That is the difference between, like, their family losing everything or not, and just like that, that awareness, I think, is very important. As you go read this book,

Traci Thomas 41:07

okay, we're gonna take a quick break. We're halfway through the list. We'll be back. All right, we're back. It's my turn now. Now I'm feeling freed up to do something that I was not planning to do at all. I'm thinking I'm gonna get weird right now. Yes, let's get weird. I think I'm gonna get weird like I was not planning to do this. I don't even, I don't I don't even have the author's last name written down. Hold on

MJ Franklin 41:35

while you search again, the vibe shift. It was like, weird year, weird year. Now we're back from break, and I feel free.

Traci Thomas 41:41

I feel free. I feel free. So the reason that I have this shift is because I was worried you all were gonna do all fiction, and so that I was gonna bear the responsibility of making sure that some of my non fiction faves made the list. And now I'm feeling like, I don't know. I'm feeling like I'm gonna do it okay. I This is the weirdest this was, this was the last book I added to my 11 book list, but I'm doing it. My number two pick is hunchback by Saou Ichikawa,

MJ Franklin 42:08

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Traci Thomas 42:11

I'm getting weird. It's a little novella thing. It's like 90 pages. It is about, I didn't even prepare, so I'm this is off the cuff. It's about a woman who is has a severe physical disability, congenital muscle disorder. She spends her time in her room, mostly in her care center. She's a student. She's rich. She's got a lot of fucking thoughts. Her thoughts are funny, dark. She's obsessed with the idea of herself having money and having power and having these physical limitations, but having this mind that is active, and there's these power I don't want to say a lot, because I don't want to give anything away of where the book goes. I love this book. I, as you all know, I love an unlikable woman, and I love it even more when the unlikable woman is paired with other sort of factors, whether it's because she's black, whether it's because she's disabled, whether it's because she's queer, I love when we get these characters, of like, quote, unquote, unlikeable people who are doing things. It's like, why would you ever do that? I'm like, Yeah, bitch, do it. And our lead in this book, Shaka, she's fucking doing it. She is nothing like the way that people want to present disabled people in stories. She is she's not like pure of heart or pure of mine. She is not like, Oh, she's so smart, like it's so sad, like there's no sympathy for her in those ways. And I just loved it because it adds a complication to the book. But also I just the choices are so unhinged. I love it. I love it.

MJ Franklin 43:59

Traci, one thing that I want to add to this is that this book is also, like, a deeply horny book.

Traci Thomas 44:06

Like, oh, it's so horny. Oh yeah, it's so funny. Well, I didn't, I didn't want to give anything away. There's sex, lots of sex,

MJ Franklin 44:11

but it opens with this, like, crazy sex scene. Oh yeah, that's how it opens. And then you're right, like, you've realized that this is something that she is writing like the main character and like she is, so I don't want to say like scheming, even though she does have a lot of schemes to get what she wants. But she's so driven. She's so driven. And it's about like, yeah, power and ability and disability for a variety of reasons, whether that's physical, monetary, all this stuff. It's so good. I'm surprised that this is on your list, traci.

Traci Thomas 44:44

I told you I was throwing a curve ball. I really love this book. I haven't talked about it a lot, and because you two picked books that I've talked about loving so much, I feel like I can throw a curve ball at if you all had picked books I hadn't talked about I would have felt more compelled to put these books that i. I have championed all year, but I feel like this is a weird year for me, also in that usually there's a book that I feel like I've invented like that. I've been talking about so much that everyone, like associates with me, we talked about this in the past. I don't feel like I invented any books this year, so I feel a freedom that I don't have to and you guys, again, picked two of my absolute faves that I've screamed about had on the show like so I just felt like, why not get weird? I feel so free. Now. I feel great. I know what my third book is gonna be, and now the real question is, what's the 10th book? And that's gonna be fun.

Greta Johnsen 45:30

Okay, so okay, but wait, Traci, is it? Is it plotty?

Traci Thomas 45:35

Yeah, okay, there's some plot. There's also vibes. So what I've decided is this is something I've been thinking about this year. It came up during Frankenstein. Actually, the stacks pack asked me why I liked Frankenstein, because it's sort of a vibey book. And what I realized is I don't have a problem with vibes. I just need there to be high stakes, and I need there to be compelling scenes. So you can vibe out for 30 pages. If you want this book's only like 90 pages, so it's also very short. Very short, but you could vibe out for a while, like Mary Shelley does, but then it's like, Victor and the creature are going to meet and they're gonna talk, and babe, those are stakes through the roof. And, yeah, there's a fight, you know. So like, for me, this book has scenes like that, and because it's so short, a lot of the sort of musings, they're just a few pages. If it was, like, if this book was 400 pages, I probably wouldn't have liked it, but because it's so tight and so quick,

MJ Franklin 46:28

and that's the skill of this book, how do you get all of those big things that she is thinking about and ripping on? Yeah, and it's by being that, yeah, they're like, it's by being that there's a strong thematic core, and it feels like you're like, kind of looking at all of looking all of his scenes are looking at things from different angles. But to get that down into as slim a book as this is, and have it be so powerful is so challenging.

Traci Thomas 46:52

Yeah, so I would say it's a perfect balance for me between vibes and plot. Like stuff happens, there's movement, I don't know, not plot. I don't know stuff happens. Okay, Greta, your third pick.

Greta Johnsen 47:07

Okay, so going by the ethos, again, related to good things around just like what made me happy this year, a book I would like to shout out. But that is not my third pick.

Traci Thomas 47:21

Go ahead. Who cares? We're all going whatever.

Greta Johnsen 47:26

It's the rose field by Philip Pullman. This is the third book in a second trilogy, which means you have to have read, like, literally, 2500 pages of other books.

Traci Thomas 47:36

What's it called? I never even heard on this.

Greta Johnsen 47:37

I know, right? It's called the Rose field. You have heard of Philip the first book in the first trilogy, which is the Golden Compass. This is the His Dark Materials trilogy. Phillip has written another trilogy that, like takes place. It sort of surrounds what happened in that original series. Okay? And it's just great. And I just love them. I first got into the Golden Compass when I was probably like 10, and so I think part of it is,

Traci Thomas 48:01

Okay what's your pick Greta?

Greta Johnsen 48:04

I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me shake it off. My pick is sinkhole by Lana Crow, sinkhole and other inexplicable voids. This is a short story collection. It's fucking weird. One of the readers in my Greta Graham book club called it capital W weird, which I loved. It kind of reminds me of Kelly link a little bit. I don't know if either of you have read her. She's sort of like one of those, like writers, writers, I feel like it's a little less creepy than Kelly, but it still has this like vibrance and strangeness. Like one of the short stories is Traci. Well, I think you might both love this. Actually, there's like, a surprise twin, like, just sort of appears, like, this woman thinks she had one baby, but then all of a sudden there's two babies. And, like, no one really questions it, and she thinks she's probably kind of insane, but she just sort of has to go with it, because now there's two babies, and the short stories are interconnected, which is delightful. And there's some, like, climate fiction elements and like, It's just strange and great. It's like, sort of that color palette that kind of reminds me of Rupi Thorpe or Kevin Wilson, where it's just like, you just kind of go along with it, and it's good and interesting and strange. So that is my final pick.

Traci Thomas 49:23

The cover looks great. It looks like the unveiling cover, but like, oh yeah, brighter, yes, there you go. Okay, I don't have any follow ups. I'm excited. I don't know anything.

Greta Johnsen 49:38

It's great. I mean, again, there's like, four. There's also the book about the woman who sexually attracted airplanes, which is like

Traci Thomas 49:44

Oh Sky Daddy, you know. Okay, stop trying to add anyway.

Greta Johnsen 49:47

Okay, that wasn't my initial pick, people,

Traci Thomas 49:50

No. That's just Greta trying to do the most. We're gonna release our full list for all of you to see, just because it feels like we need to, um. I'll probably just put it in on social somewhere

Greta Johnsen 50:02

You can sense my desperation

Traci Thomas 50:04

Yeah, it's fine. You're fine. You're doing great, sweetie.

Greta Johnsen 50:06

Okay, I'm trying. We could make it a whole thing on my Instagram, on my sub stack, if you want, everybody could write it up.

MJ Franklin 50:14

Can I do a shout out pick then?

Traci Thomas 50:17

Fine.

MJ Franklin 50:18

Thank you. I'm just gonna say a title. I'm gonna say a title and author. It's minor black figures by Brandon Taylor. Love that book. Go read it. Cerebral, dense, smart. I feel like it's him. Like evolving. Read it. But my third pick is, if I can pick it up.

Traci Thomas 50:37

Love that you brought physical copies.

MJ Franklin 50:39

Oh, lonely crowd. Stephanie wambugu, I've mentioned Toni Morrison before, with WE DO NOT part. I'm mentioning her again, because lonely crowds is like the modern Sula. It follows the lifelong friendship of you meet them at birth, two girls in Rhode Island. There is the one, like very mannered, kind of shy girl, and then she becomes fast friends with this kind of glamorous rebel from a dark and dangerous family. She's living with her aunt after both of her her parents are killed or die by suicide. Their names are Ruth and Marie, or is it Maria? Sorry, now I'm forgetting. It's Ruth who is the mannered one and Maria, who's the rebel, and you just follow them over the course of their lives as their friendship, kind of like ebbs and flows. They're both artists. They go to college together. They have some romantic tension. And it's great. It's so it's like, just like dark gem of a book. And I say that because the book is, well, it's about friendship. It's also kind of bleak, but it's just like, I reminded me of just like a pristine New Yorker short story, positive, positive. That's a positive thing in that like and that those sentences are crisp, the writing is so sharp, and you're just pulled into the psychology of this kind of life altering, world changing, friendship. And I couldn't get enough. The writing is great. The friendship dynamic is great. It's a book that I want more people to read, which is why I have it here. This is a debut as well, and it's you will read it and look at those sentences and be like, How is this a first novel? I do not get it. So that's lonely crowds. By Stephanie wambugu,

Traci Thomas 52:44

I keep seeing it places. Now I'm now I'm more intrigued. Okay, I don't know how to do this. What do we do? Yeah, well, no, I still have one more pillow. Yes, that's right, I'm but my my question is, do I do the pick? Should I do the pick that I don't think you guys are gonna pick and then fight like hell to get my 10th book to get my other pick on.

MJ Franklin 53:04

Yes, that's the process. That's what we have,

Traci Thomas 53:08

I know, but I'm worried that if I don't, what I'm worried about is, if I don't pick this book and it doesn't make it on, I will have deep regrets, because it is my favorite, one of my

Greta Johnsen 53:17

favorite books. Let me tell you about the regret I feel over not mentioning that.

Traci Thomas 53:21

Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say the book I want to say, and then our 10th book is just gonna be a fucking free for all. Great. My third pick is one day. Everyone will have always been against this. Now I think I probably could have had a good case for getting that to be all of our 10th pick, because I do think it is the most urgent book of the year. I think it is the book that speaks to 2025 the best as far as, like, the politics of the moment. I think Omar Ella cod is unflinching in this book, in a way that just no one else has been able to be on this topic. This topic being specifically Israel's genocide in Gaza and in Palestine, but broadly the lie of the West. Right? This book is about we've been sold this bill of goods. It encompasses Eve's book and encompasses Brian's book, and encompasses sort of everything we're talking about right now. And he talks about growing up and idolizing the West and then realizing that all the things he thought he was supposed to want are fucking bullshit. And he does it beautifully. In these essays, they are so sharp, they are so searing, and again, unflinching, and also just like I felt they were important to read, like as I was reading them, I was like, right? This is how you have this argument. This is how you have this conversation. And again, shameless plug, because it's my podcast. Omar came on the show. It's one of my favorite episodes of the year, hearing him talk about the book, not not simply because I love the book, but because what comes across on the page, sort of his unflinching moral compass does not come across in the conversation. He actually seems to have a lot of like doubt and. Not anxiety or like fear for I think he fully believes what he's saying. But I think he does have doubt about like, Did I say it well enough? Did I say it right? Was I able to do the like? Will this book that he thinks is doing and saying something? Will it last? Will it have an impact? And I think that that pairing, the hearing him talk about it and reading the book is like a really interesting pairing, and I don't feel like often on this show, the author's thinking feels as far removed from the actual book itself, if that makes sense. But I love this book. It won the National Book Award. I believe I had that. And if there is any book that I feel that I invented this year, it's certainly this one, like, this is the book I have been screaming about the most. This is the most obvious pick on the list for me this year. And I think as far as like a book of 2025, this is a book of this year. The thing

MJ Franklin 55:53

that stands out to me about this book is what it was able to achieve since, like the war in Gaza, there have been, there's been so much discourse and dialog on all sides that the conversation feels crowded, right? And this book was able to cut through all of that. And the word that comes to mind is just clarity. There is such a clarity in this book, and the fact that it was able to, yeah, rise out of the muck of our increasingly deranged conversations, especially online, and present this like searing, urgent argument that people seem to actually be able to hear your conversation with him and hearing him talk about his fear of did he say the right thing? Will it actually land? Will it will it achieve what he set out to do was so clarifying, to repeat that word clarity. It was so helpful to know that he was thinking that intentionally about making sure that not only was he saying what needed to be said, but saying it so that it could be heard. That I think is so impressive and takes on a level of intention and care that I think radiates through those pages.

Traci Thomas 57:01

Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Okay, now the Royal Rumble. Let the royal let the what does it? Let the wild rumpus begin. Yeah. Okay, who are your contenders for this 10th pick? I don't think we've all read nothing. Yeah. I don't seem like all three of us have read any of the same book? I don't think so. Here's my two contenders at the moment. My top two would be black and blues by Imani Perry, and things in nature merely grow by Ian Lee. Those are my two sort of best books of the year. There's other things I could enter, but those are the two that I have.

Greta Johnsen 57:41

So the union lead, that's fiction, right? No

MJ Franklin 57:44

memoir, okay, one of your three memoirs the the genre that's over,

Traci Thomas 57:50

yeah, this is a transcendent memoir for me.

MJ Franklin 57:53

I so my two one was Baldwin and love story, the Nicholas Baldwin biography, the other book that was year. But I was like, there is no way in hell I can recommend this on this podcast. Traci will actually murder me. Was Angel down the one sentence.

Traci Thomas 58:09

Long Way story. I thought you were gonna have that on here. I didn't care.

MJ Franklin 58:14

I do love that quite a lot. I love these other books too. That's Daniel cross, right? Daniel cross, it's so good. I did love things in nature merely grow. I will not fight about that one. I think that that memoir is devastating, devastating.

Traci Thomas 58:31

So good. Hasn't read it. I didn't what would, what would be your entries into this?

Greta Johnsen 58:36

I mean, I got nothing. I don't think there's, yeah, there's, there's no original I kind of thought original sins might do it okay.

Traci Thomas 58:42

So here's our other option. What we could do is, I would, I would co sign original sins, or there is no place for us being the 10th pick, and allow one of you to whoever's book that was to add another book yourself. But MJ hasn't read well, none of us have read all of them. So we have to come up with something here.

MJ Franklin 59:01

I kind of, like, the order that we went, I say, let's keep as it is. And we got a new tent, partially because, like, the jockeying and like, the passion of, like, I wasn't sure if it was going to be the tent, but I needed it. I kind of like that. So I

Traci Thomas 59:16

say, Okay, no, no. I mean, we're gonna leave all this in, and we're probably gonna keep this part in too, to be honest. Perfect. Okay, so, so, Greta, you don't have another book that you want to enter into this conversation.

Greta Johnsen 59:28

I mean, there are other books that I would shout out, but none of them, I think, are like the best book of the year. I think it's probably the Omar Alcott and I just need to read it. I'm just like, behind the times.

MJ Franklin 59:39

What are you feeling, Traci,

Traci Thomas 59:41

I don't know. I mean, I'm feeling like it should be things in nature merely grow, since we both read it and you really liked it too. Okay, that's my instinct, because you didn't have a strong reaction to black and blues. I love black and blues, but you did have a strong reaction to things in nature merely grow. I didn't read the Daniel Krause for obvious, yeah, I think you would. Hate one sentence horror novel.

MJ Franklin 1:00:02

It's so good, but I do think that you would hate it.

Traci Thomas 1:00:06

I know that you love it, and I know you think it's good, and I know I hate that book. Congratulations to him, because obviously you put up a good fight at the New York Times, because it did make your guys's top 10 when Omar Ellicott did not devastating

MJ Franklin 1:00:19

different genres, different genres. It's not like out of another

Traci Thomas 1:00:24

or different, yeah, sure. Whatever my sense is that things in nature merely grow, is what I would say. But this is my podcast, so I don't want to bully you

Greta Johnsen 1:00:35

guys. Oh, no, I think you get to because it's your podcast.

MJ Franklin 1:00:38

Oh, you think I also feel like

Greta Johnsen 1:00:41

me this whole fucking time. Traci,

MJ Franklin 1:00:45

Oh, you think I also feel like you're giving me an invitation from the start is Greta, you know you did? I feel like this, like kind of tepidness is so on par with the year, though, right? Yeah, there are books I feel like we all love, but it's like, if you get to choose only 10, what are the ones you're gonna scream from the mountaintops? Really like, this year there are books I'm like, Yeah, this is it. But nothing that I'm like, elbowing anyone out of the way for.

Traci Thomas 1:01:18

I really like, well, so that, yeah, that's this year. To me, it's like in the beginning, when the lists first started coming out, like we got, like the Kirkus prize, then you sort of get, well, first you get the Booker, then you get the Kirkus, then you get the National Book Awards, and you start to get best lists of the year. And I started to have this whole thing of, like, Did I read anything this year? I didn't read any books this year, because every list, it would be, like, 100 notable books, or like 100 books, and I'd read like, 10, and I DNF like nine, and I was like, This is crazy that, like, because in a normal year I usually have, like, I feel like I have a better sense of what's coming, and every list was different. Like, I don't even, I think, like, the Atlantic's top 10 and the New York Times top 10. I think you guys had one crossover book. There's been just one. And obviously last year was an also an outlier, because James and martyr were such juggernauts. But two or three years ago, there were a few books that kept, like demon Copperhead was around. It wasn't on every list, but like you knew, people were like vibing with that book, same with like south to America by Imani Perry. It wasn't unanimous, but like, it was showing up on those lists. And this year, it's just like any book you read, like anything I

MJ Franklin 1:02:34

to the weirdness of the year, I feel like, yeah, the strangeness, the anomaly of last year was that the books that dominated the conversation came early, not the fact that there were books that dominated the conversation, because there are always books that dominate the conversation. You mentioned demon copperhead. Let's talk about trust. We could talk about intimacies, lost songs with WEB DuBois. Going back even further, you have books like nickel boys. You have like Colson Whiteheads, like more of Colson white like Underground Railroad is the other one that I was thinking of, like there are always books that dominate the conversation. For me, last year was just strange that they both published so early, and this year feels strange and that it just feels like there's no book that dominates the conversation, period,

Greta Johnsen 1:03:21

yeah, yeah. And then it's interesting, yeah, between the three of us, like, I feel like normally we there's more crossover in what we've read. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:03:28

Well, I think that's why. Because I think everyone has sort of been out searching for the Book of the Year all year. And like, nobody's telling me what to read. Usually, Greta, you'll be like, you have to read this. It's amazing. Or, like, someone will say to me, like, have you read this yet? And I'll usually say No, obviously not. But like, I'll feel the pressure to read it. That's why I finally read audition, like yesterday, just

Greta Johnsen 1:03:49

read it. Yes, we've always read that. Oh, we all through that's one book we've all three read, which I love. I think it's the best book of the year. You loved it.

Traci Thomas 1:03:55

I did like that. It was fine. I thought the writing was amazing. But like, I would not feel comfortable putting it on my top debt. Not that I didn't think it was, yeah, look, I think it's a good book. I just, I don't know it didn't do enough for me, but do we have to put it on because it's a book we all read?

MJ Franklin 1:04:14

But now, no, I don't think so. But now it's gone from like, yeah, the best books of the year to the book we all read.

Traci Thomas 1:04:21

Okay, let's not do that. Let's not do that. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be the boss of this podcast, because that is my job. And I'm gonna say our 10th book is things in nature merely grow. It's by Yee and Lee. It is her memoir. She had a child, teenage son, die by suicide, and like six years later, her other teenage son died by suicide. This is her memoir to the second son, but about both the sons. It's about grief. And I think what makes this book outstanding, and what makes any memoir worth time at this point in my life, for me, is that, yes, it's about the thing that it's about, but really it's about how we tell stories, how we talk about memory, what it. Means to render things into time in memoriam, like, what does it mean to render this story right now into book form? She is, she also, like, is calling up Shakespeare. She call actually calls up a memoir from our memoir, a monolog from King John, by his mother Constance and by the mother constants. And I used to do that monolog in college, and I was like, Oh my God. Like, nobody knows this fucking monolog, but it is like, the reason I used to do it in college is because it is acting like it is, like grief it is. She's pulling her hair out of her head. And so I really loved how she was calling into conversation with her, other works, other texts, nature as like, this force, like, I just think she's doing interesting things within the form of memoir. And while this book is sad because it's sad, it is not sad in the way you think it's going to be. You're not reading this book. I did not weep as I read this book. I was like, wow, this is, like such a terrible thing that has happened to this woman, but the book is very matter of fact, which I also appreciate it. It is not reveling in the emotional like or like, wallowing in the emotional realities of this, like these things that have happened. It's sort of like these things have happened, and then we keep living, and I keep writing, because I'm a writer, and Nature keeps growing, because things in nature merely grow and like, let's just talk about how this lives. So that's why I love the book.

MJ Franklin 1:06:27

Yeah, I agree. And for me that what stood out was just that spareness. When we think about grief, we think of this like flood of feeling and emotion. And I love those books. I love a good grief novel, A Grief memoir. This is so different. It's exacting, it's spare. I don't want to say it's cold, because you can tell there's so much love and emotion there, but it's cerebral. Is what I think it is. It's her talking about how we tell these stories. Yeon Lee says that she hates the term grief novel or grief book. And that's not what this is, but it is what it is. But like, yeah, hearing, getting to watch someone think through that, that's what it is. You're watching someone think through laws, not watching someone feel through laws. And I love that like, kind of slant to it. Wow, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:07:17

another pairing for this that was on my list as another memoir that I like, but like, this is not a real one. Is sad Tiger by nej sino. It's a It's memoir and translation from France. And when she was like, seven, her stepfather started sexually abusing her, and it went on for years. And she's writing in a similar way. She's like, how do I write about this with authority? But also, like having been part of this. So, like, how could I ever have authority? Because I'm so invested in this thing, but she's writing through it, and like, thinking about how to write about it, as opposed to just writing about it, which again, makes it like more. I mean, not that like the job is to make it readable, but it is like, this is not a diary for either of these women, this is their offering into the space, into like, time, like that, that they are offering this in the hopes that they will last. And I think it's like a really, and that's why these memoirs are memoirs that actually stood out to me. Yeah, that's really interesting. Because every memoir that's like, hey, this happened, I'm like, boo, DNF, gotta go.

Greta Johnsen 1:08:19

Well, how much of that too is like, I feel like, often like a bad memoir. A sign to me of a bad memoir is like, Oh, you didn't go to therapy. You know, it's like, you're, you are writing this to process it, where it sounds like both of these are, like, the next level of that, where it's like, no, I have, like, here is the distillation that I have come to because I have processed it

Traci Thomas 1:08:39

right, right. Totally, totally, okay. We are obviously, like, running out of time, but this is a long episode every year, and you're welcome, and you guys love it, so don't yell at me. Nobody yells at me. Nobody cares. It's Christmas Eve. You guys are listening on Christmas Eve. You don't fucking care. You're probably actually listening like the beginning of January, because you had things to do, but whatever, whenever you're listening, it's great, and I appreciate you. 2026 I'm so excited for it is the year of the big name authors returning for their crowns. This it is gonna if these books are even solid from these people, we're in for it. Here's a list of people, not complete, but just a list of people, big, big names coming back with books. Tayari Jones, Coulson, Whitehead, Anne Patchett, Jane smiley, Jasmine Ward, Patrick rad and Keith. Heather. Ann Thompson, George Saunders, Dorothy Roberts, Min Jin Lee. There are rumors of Emily St, John Mandel. Emily St, John Mandel. There's some other people that I've been told have books coming, but I don't want to say because I think it might have been told to me in confidence. Oh, Chang Rae Lee has a book coming. We know about Maggie O'Farrell. Maggie O'Farrell, oh, yes, this just came out. It's just, it's just bigger, and then, and then there's the follow ups to some exciting, newer authors. We've got Chanda prescod Weinstein, Disha filiaz novels coming. Kimon Felix has another book. Like, it's just, it's like people who are already established, great winners, they're all entering the ring at the same time. And my sense is about this. Do you remember in 2020 when everyone was like, we're gonna get all these books? Because all these writers are writing, oh, yeah, my sense is all the great writers, they took a little time. And these are the things that maybe they maybe they had another project going in 2019 and then 2020 happened, and they were like, This doesn't feel right. And these are the they're not going to be covid books. But these, to me, are the books that have come out of covid. Obviously, Coulson is different because he's like writing in this series, but like Tari Jones, she published in 2018 haven't heard anything for a while. I'm feeling like, you know, George Saunders, like all these people sort of published right before, and now we're getting, I don't know. So that's kind of what my I'm hoping these are great, because it's like they are. I had to write this. I had to sit down and go back to the drawing board.

MJ Franklin 1:11:05

Yeah, 2026 is going to be so stacked. I'm so excited. Like my question, though, not to add a nugget of doubt, is that I feel like 2025 had some big returns that, just for whatever reason, didn't stick around, which I don't think is because of the big books that we got, I feel like there was just something in the water, something in the air. 2025 is a weird

Traci Thomas 1:11:26

you had big returns this year.

MJ Franklin 1:11:28

I mean, like, I'm thinking about, like, can we imagine Ngozi Adichie, John Irving. John Irving, sorry to interrupt you. Oh, no. Just like, they're, they're people like, who had Tory Peters, right? Like, like there were

Traci Thomas 1:11:41

big Tory Peters would go on the other the promising follow up category. And like, I feel like the big names in 2026 feel way bigger to me. I think Susan Choi would maybe be considered like a big name.

MJ Franklin 1:11:55

Yep, Susan Choi, we had a new Thomas pension, right? Like, there were giant novels that came out, or giant books that came out this year, but for whatever reason, they just didn't stick. So I'm excited for this slate. And I guess this is a plea to everyone listening to this, read these books. Make these books stick if you love them. Yeah, yeah. Make books. So back. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:12:14

We need, we need a sticky year. Do it for your favorite online book content creators. Help us. Help you. Okay, before we go to 2026,

MJ Franklin 1:12:29

books you're excited about? Sure I have mentioned one already, and that's on Morrison by nom Ali sarpel, I love a book. Happy to do that. It's so good. It's so smart. It's one that I already started it, and I Yeah, you've read it. Okay? Loved it. Loved it. That book is hard. It is like taking a college class. It is so academic. If you love Toni Morrison, though this is like in valuable

Traci Thomas 1:12:57

if you love what? If you haven't read all of her books, are you okay? You don't

MJ Franklin 1:13:01

need to read them, because they're both deep dives into these books and also great primers on them, or primers I recently learned so you say that great primers on them, and then, just like fantastic arguments and cultural analysis. Now, Molly's rappel is one of my favorites. She wrote the old drift and the furrows both nominal books. And this is just a great writer tackling a great writer. So that's one to keep an eye out for. For 2026, and then also the tayari Jones, it's a party started it. Yes, I'm about 80, 70% 80% of the way through, similar to lonely crowds, similar to books like The Vanishing half. It's about the story. Don't tell me what it's about.

Traci Thomas 1:13:47

Actually, okay, I don't know anything. It would be great. I would love to not know. I don't want to know. I don't want to know anything. All I know. I've seen the cover. I have it. I haven't read any copy. Every time I get an email, it just says, like Ken Terry Jones, and I just say, yes, please send but I'm trying not to. I'm gonna read it soon, so that I don't get spoiled on it.

MJ Franklin 1:14:02

My lips are sealed also. I'm gonna squeeze in the third one. George Saunders love. George Saunders love I started that. Yeah, he is my man. George Saunders, love him so much. And he's back with vigil, okay?

Traci Thomas 1:14:16

And you've read that too, yes, oh, wow. You're cruising. I've only read 120, 26 book. I'm not gonna talk,

MJ Franklin 1:14:22

Traci, you were looking back into the past. You're like, I'm done with 2025 I'm going to classics. I was like, I'm going to 2026

Traci Thomas 1:14:28

my reading goal for 2026 my main goal is to read as much 2026 and as far ahead as I possibly. To stay ahead. Wow. I want to, I want to just have my own opinions this year. I want to just, I don't want to be tempered. I'm not going to read as much classics. It probably is going to suck in the long run, because it means I'm going to be reading a lot of things that suck before anyone tells me, don't waste your time. But I just want to, I just want to try it. I want to just try it, because I was so far back last year. So that's my big goal. Okay, Greta, do you have to?

Greta Johnsen 1:14:58

I mean, I have like, 17 I'm. Glad you shouted out some of those authors, because, yeah, especially like Anne Patchett, Emily St John Mandel, Tana French, I'm really excited about her newest book. I think she's a phenomenal mystery writer. But the two I want to shout out are one that I'm currently reading. It is called Dear Monica Lewinsky. It is by Julia Langbein, and it's a really interesting like, I haven't read any actual synopses of it, so I'm just kind of like on a journey, but it's a really interesting exploration of, like sainthood, virginity, also, like a reckoning of Monica winski, essentially. So like the very, very brief plot is this woman is looking back on a summer that she spent in France, where she has, like, a very complicated entanglement with an older professor, and it just happens to be the same summer that the Monica Lewinsky scandal unravels. And in retrospect, she's realizing that she, like, completely underestimated Monica Lewinsky and just kind of thought like, Oh, what a like, dumb, silly woman to put herself in this position. So she's reconciling her own history along with, like, how I think most of us had that conversation when it was happening, and it's just like fun and weird and horny and great. So I'm really enjoying that one. It's also very smart. And then another one I'm really looking forward to is essay chakraborty's Next book. It's called the tapestry of fate. This is a follow up to her adventures of Amina al sarafi, which is a super fun fantasy novel about like a Muslim lady pirate in, I think, the 12th century, which is just like such a delightful romp. And so I'm very excited for that too. Okay, I'm gonna go.

Traci Thomas 1:16:37

I can't you mean, how far can I go into any episode before I say the three magic words, Patrick, rat and Keith. But Patrick, rad and Keith has a new book coming out called London, calling in April. I have to brag, because I got the first, I think, first galley. I got one of the first galleys. I got an email from his team that was literally like, we deleted all the marketing copy. Would you like the book? I know you know what's up, and I posted it on social media, and Patrick saw I tagged him, and he responded, I think you got your book before I did, Traci. So what you need to know about me is, if you're a fucking psychopath and you demand that someone be your online boyfriend who doesn't know you and doesn't care about you, his publicity team will notice and send you free books. So congratulations. This is a roadmap to success. So I haven't started it yet. My plan is to start that I have one book left to finish for my mega reading challenge this year, and that's the last book I have to read this year. And then I'm going to start London calling, hopefully this weekend, so by the time you listen to this, I'll probably already have read it. And then my other book, then my other book I already mentioned, fear and Fury by Heather Ann Thompson, about Bernie gets so that time I list, but I'm gonna say pool house. Mary HK Choy has a book coming out. Oh, it's about a mother and daughter. It's about grief. It's her first adult novel. And I love I read all three of her young adult, new a new adult books, or whatever. And this one is about like a mother daughter. It's set in Hollywood. You know, I love an LA book because I'm an LA Girl. Well, not by birth, but by living. And I just love Mary. And I don't know a ton else about it. I didn't, I don't like to know anything about fiction if I can avoid it, and I so. But the cover is also gorgeous. So Mary's got a book. I think it comes out in June. So in June. And you already said on Morrison, so awesome. Before we go. Last thing, Greta, you have a new podcast? Oh yeah, I do. Oh yes, people are listening. It'll be out in the world, because your first episode came out on the night December. So tell people about it quickly.

Greta Johnsen 1:18:38

It's called Happy to be here. The short little tagline, which I thought up after taking a cannabis sleeping pill, is it's for recovering perfectionists and the perpetually curious.

Traci Thomas 1:18:50

Five people, exactly, no, I'm not recovering. I'm deep in it.

Greta Johnsen 1:18:55

Work on that. Traci, this is, I mean, for people who are familiar with my old podcast, nerdette, I think this is going to feel you're going to feel you're going to feel right at home. It's going to be a lot of book stuff. It's going to be a lot of fun, interesting conversations. And I'm very excited in January, we're going to start my so called Life recaps, which is going to be a blast. So if you're looking for something to watch, maybe for the first time, maybe to revisit in January. My so called life. Claire Danes is your gal.

Traci Thomas 1:19:24

I love this. I love this. We're so excited to have you back on in our ears. MJ, you guys can find MJ On socials and also at the New York Times. I don't know if you ever heard of it's a small paper. They sometimes cover books. They have a podcast. He does their book club podcast, controversial selection. Yeah, they do have every year the top 10 is a is a fight for me. Every year I'm like, it's gonna be all out war with these people.

MJ Franklin 1:19:48

I love Traci's post lists, read along text like, Traci is like, I'm gonna read these books to see what's up. Which I Traci, I think you said this last year, like, if I'm gonna be a hater, I'm gonna. Do the homework.

Traci Thomas 1:20:00

Yes, for sure. Yes. This year's list, I told you already. MJ, so I've read three of the nonfiction. I don't ever read the fiction. I read three of the nonfiction, but I struggled this year with the list, as you know

MJ Franklin 1:20:17

A, okay.

Traci Thomas 1:20:15

What am I supposed to do.

Greta Johnsen 1:20:18

Well, what I will say about, I mean, partly, this conversation is always such a delight, because I don't know about y'all, but I am walking away with like, at least eight books that I'm super excited to check out, same which, you know, and I'm sure that's what's happening with listeners, too. So that's, like, such a joy.

MJ Franklin 1:20:33

Can I also just pause and appreciate the range of this list? We have a cookbook, we have memoirs, the genre in it's flop era made it to this list. We have novels, short stories. We have translated literature

Traci Thomas 1:20:41

We have two books in translation, in two different languages.

MJ Franklin 1:20:41

Yep. So this is a great list.

Traci Thomas 1:20:45

This is a really great list. I feel, I feel really great about, there's a lot of non fiction representation, which I was very worried about. I don't know if it's our best list ever, but it's certainly, if you're reading with us, you're having a good time, if you're reading with other people's lists. I can't promise, I don't know those people

Greta Johnsen 1:21:04

It's not the best list ever, but it also wasn't the best year ever. Like, I think we know.

Traci Thomas 1:21:11

Well, I think it's a great list, you know, as they say, when life gives you lemonades, I mean lemons.

Greta Johnsen 1:21:21

I think we had some desiccated lemons,

Traci Thomas 1:21:24

we had some lemons, we had some late season lemons, and we've turned them into it. There's there's, all the books are fine. My question will be in five years, will any of us remember any of the books on this list?

MJ Franklin 1:21:34

See you in five years.

Traci Thomas 1:21:35

Yeah. Because, like, I think, like, if you go back two or three years, there's a list where I'm just like, no one's talking about any of these books anymore. Obviously, last year, I think James is gonna stand the test of time. I hope that martyr will too. But like, 10 years from now, what will all fours be? Who knows?

MJ Franklin 1:21:52

Not too much on all fours. I love that book.

Traci Thomas 1:21:55

I feel like people already aren't really talking about it anymore. Like, I don't feel like all fours, all fours was pretty much in that same pack with the other two, though it did come out later, and I feel like people talk about last year as the year of James and martyr, but all fours was on a lot of those lists, including the National Book Award.

Greta Johnsen 1:22:13

The thing I will say for all fours is that it's being comped a lot like that is a title I'm seeing come up very much in comp analysis when they're like, it's the next it's all fours meets ball, which means, I think there is some stickiness,

Traci Thomas 1:22:25

yeah, I think, I think there is still now, but I'm curious, in 10 years, is all fours? I didn't read it, so what would I know? But that was also on the New York Times list last year, right? Yeah? Like, I feel like all fours is, weirdly, not part of the conversation. I don't know sexism actually. Don't think that's what it is, but I do. I think the other two books were just like beloved by all, and I think all fours was much more divisive. Anyways, thank you guys for doing this.

MJ Franklin 1:22:55

This is always like the highlight of my year. Thank you so much for having me.

Traci Thomas 1:22:58

I know I used to mix and match the hosts for the guests for this, and then we struck gold. And now sorry to everyone else who ever had a dream of being on the podcast, it's just like I don't fucking care. Also, to be fair, between the three of us, we've read close to 400 read into close to 400 books this year, yeah, or over, over 320 25 books. So I feel like this is a good crew. All right. Well, I love you guys. Thank you.

MJ Franklin 1:23:28

Happy holidays. Happy New Year. Happy reading

Traci Thomas 1:23:32

Everybody else, we'll see you in the 2026, stacks. all right, y'all thank you so much for listening, and thank you again, as always, to MJ and Greta for putting up with me and for being a guest on this podcast. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, a town, a team and a dream by HG Bissinger. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 31 with Joel Anderson. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks. Pack and check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com make sure you're subscribed to the stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram, threads, Tiktok and now YouTube, and you can check out our website at the stacks podcast.com Today's episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support provided by Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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