Ep. 440 Books Tell a Different Story with Natalie Green

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re joined by Natalie Green, the Director of Programs and Partnerships at The National Book Foundation. We talk about what The National Book Foundation does, the details of Natalie’s role, and the NBF programming that’s been resonating most with readers.

Our book club pick for September is Brother, I’m Dying by Edwidge Danticat. We will be discussing the book with Natalie Green on Wednesday, September 30th.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Natalie Green 0:00

I'm like the first to admit that like I doom scroll so easily, or when I read the news, I just feel totally hopeless. And I think like the best part of my job and why I'm like loath to give up being the person who's on the ground is like those. That's when the most meaningful stuff happens. Like that's what's given me hope. I'm like, oh, there are people that care about the same things that I care about in pockets like all over the country. Like, don't let them tell you otherwise. Like, the coastal elitism and like us not understanding who's in the middle. Like, I think books and reading tells a different story.

Traci Thomas 0:43

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by Natalie Green. She is the director of programs and partnerships at the National Book Foundation. Today, Natalie and I talk about what the National Book Foundation does aside from the National Book Awards. We talk about how Natalie got into the arts nonprofit space and the art of book award prediction. Our book club pick for September is "Brother, I'm Dying" by Edwidge Danticat. Natalie will be returning to discuss the book with us on Wednesday, september 30. If you like this podcast and want even more bookish content, please consider joining our community, the Stacks Pack on Patreon, and subscribing to my newsletter Unstacked on Substack. Each of these platforms offers a paid tier where you can get bonus content, things like extra episodes, access to our Discord community, my hot takes on pop culture books, and more. And they also offer a free tier where you can stay connected with the stacks by joining in any capacity, you help make it possible for me to make the stacks every single week with my incredible team. So if you're interested in supporting the work we do here, head to Patreon.com/thestax to join the stacks pack and sign up for my newsletter Unstacked at Traci Thomas. Substack. com. All right, now it's time for my conversation with Natalie Green. All right, everybody! I am so excited today. I am joined by Natalie Green. She is the director of programming and partnerships at the National Book Foundation. She is a lovely human that I know you will all fall in love with, but I'm gonna just like let you do that on your own. I don't want to talk you into it. I want you to just naturally be like, "Oh my God, Natalie's amazing, because that's how I feel about Natalie, who I have met over the years in many different places and spaces. So I am thrilled to finally have Natalie Green on the stacks. Welcome, Natalie.

Natalie Green 2:40

I feel like we need like sound effects. I'm so excited to be here. The crowd goes

Traci Thomas 2:44

The crowd goes wild!

Natalie Green 2:45

Thank you, Traci.

Traci Thomas 2:46

I'm so excited to have you. I was gonna say this before we started recording, but I wanted people to hear. So I had a stroke of genius like two weeks ago when I reached out to the National Book Foundation and was like, somebody needs to come on this podcast from your from your little group you guys got over there. I was like, we got to make it happen because I realized as much as I am like a lover of the National Book Foundation and the National Book Awards, and it is September as you're listening to this, and the National Book Award nominations long lists are all coming out this month, and I was like, "What about the synergy of this moment? And so I feel really proud of myself after eight and a half years of doing this podcast that it dawned on me to do a sort of National Book Award themed episode in September. So I'm so glad that you all said yes and that you're here because I would have felt really bad if you guys were like. Are

Natalie Green 3:44

Are you kidding me, Traci? Obviously, it was a no-brainer. We were freaking over the moon, and then we had to duke it out in the office over who got to be on the pod, and I won.

Traci Thomas 3:54

Yeah. Well, I love this. I hope it was like a very intense game of like rock paper scissors or something, or like you guys like busted out Monopoly, and it's like whoever wins this eight-hour game like gets to go talk about books with Traci.

Natalie Green 4:08

It was rock paper scissors. Let's be honest, the only thing that a book nerd can do.

Traci Thomas 4:13

Wait, I have a funny rock paper scissors story. So you know, I have identical twins, of course. And people always ask me if they have like special powers or like they, if they have their own language or anything like that, and the answer is no. But the one thing that they have is that they can play rock paper scissors and tie for like 12 rounds in a row. That's the longest they've ever gone. But they'll do like rock paper scissors. They'll both do scissors. Then they'll both do rock. Then they'll both do scissors. And then like after like five, they'll both like do paper, and then they'll be like stop and like get mad at each other, and they'll be like don't do it, and then they'll be like okay, and they literally, and I think it's so funny. I think it's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Natalie Green 4:54

It's very cute, and it also means that they do have powers.

Traci Thomas 4:58

Yeah, they do have powers. Just manifests in competition, which I wonder where they got that from. Okay, enough about me and my great ideas and my insane children. Let's talk about you, Natalie. Tell us a little bit about where you're from, how you sort of got into the book space. Maybe a little bit about like your childhood reading life, if there's any story there.

Natalie Green 5:19

I'm from a suburb of Los Angeles called 1000 Oaks. So when people aren't familiar with California, I say I'm from LA, and I lie to their faces. But 1000 Oaks is in Ventura County, so it's sort of nestled like in between LA and Santa Barbara. Super boring, kind of milk toast, but like so beautiful. My parents are both visual artists, and they were like, "What is a suburb we can almost afford, and that has good public schools? And at the time, I was so resentful, and in retrospect, I am so infinitely grateful. But it meant that like our main hangout activity was like the parking lot of the McDonald's or the Starbucks, and I read so much, and I was such a huge reader from a young age, and a huge nerd. And I would hide under the covers with my flashlight and read when my parents thought I was sleeping. And I grew up, and my dad was working night shifts, and so I really always wanted to like stay up until he got home to know he was home, and so I would read under the covers when he'd come into the room and be like, "Natalie, please go to sleep. It's five a.m."

Traci Thomas 6:33

Wait when did you sleep?

Natalie Green 6:34

I don't know. I was like a kid. I guess it didn't matter, but I just have always been obsessed with books and like their capacity to take me away from feeling big feelings or help me feel big feelings or help me explore places that I never thought I'd be able to explore. We didn't really travel that much when I was growing up, so books have always been kind of like my greatest escape and like friend and lesson learned, and I'm just I'm so grateful for everything that they've like taught me.

Traci Thomas 7:05

Are you a good visual artist?

Natalie Green 7:07

I'm a good like mimic. Like I like could sketch with like my parents when they gave me something to look at, but I felt like I had no creative ideas of my own.

Traci Thomas 7:18

Got it. I'm a terrible visual artist, but I feel like people who have visual artist parents, like they they are, you're like is you're like born with

Natalie Green 7:26

it. I mean, I think what visual artist parents gave me was like they always worked day jobs, and they just like gave me a capacity to like be a dreamer. And so when I went to UCLA and was like, I'm going to be an English major. They were like, Sounds great

Traci Thomas 7:43

It sounds very practical compared to being a visual artist.

Natalie Green 7:47

I am the most practical person in my family working at an arts nonprofit. Like they're like, oh, that Natalie, she's always hitting the grindstone.

Traci Thomas 7:55

Are you an only child?

Natalie Green 7:57

I have an older sister.

Traci Thomas 7:58

Okay, and what does she do?

Natalie Green 8:00

She used to be a high school English teacher, and now she's a professional declutterer.

Traci Thomas 8:05

Oh my gosh! Wow!

Natalie Green 8:06

Runs her own business. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 8:08

you were an English major. How did you? What What was your route to the National Book Foundation? Because I know you have had a a lot of other. I know you've gone through other places to get to where you are now.

Natalie Green 8:20

Yeah, I would say a lot is generous. I think I'm a loyalist, and so I was an English major at UCLA, and I was trying to figure out like what a job in books could look like for me, especially in LA. It's it's a different landscape, and it's pretty small, and everyone knows each other. And I got super lucky. The Los Angeles County Arts Commission, I think they still do this, but at least when I was there, they did full-time funded internships at arts nonprofits during the summer, and so it was sort of like a placement situation where arts nonprofits could be like, I want an intern, and then interns could apply and then kind of rank their choices. And I got a position at what was then called Penn Center USA. It used to be a 501 c3 separate from Pen America in New York. That was all about quote unquote writers west of the Mississippi. And I got an internship for their Emerging Voices fellowship and just like fell in love with a teeny tiny arts nonprofit that thought they could do more than they could chew, and more than the money they had in the bank, and also just like I got to meet so many writers and mentors and amazing humans in the LA literary community, many of whom like I'm still in touch with. And at the time, I was like 19 or 20 years old, and they respected me and like welcomed me and it was kind of an unbelievable experience to me and like a total gateway drug and I was like okay I guess this is what I'm gonna do but there are no jobs in this and my mentor at the time was like we'll like we'll stay in touch I guess and then it was just one of those stories of getting lucky. Being in the right place at the right time, and when I was finishing up my degree at UCLA, our executive director at the time at Penn Center was on maternity leave, and my former mentor and boss, Libby Flores, was still there. She was like, "We just need somebody who will come in and do whatever we tell them to do for like part time and like no money. Would you be able to do that? And I was like, absolutely. So I finished up my degree at UCLA, was still like working hours as the manager at Krukoff Coffee Shop on campus, and then like also would then drive to like Beverly Hills and work at Penn, and it was so chaotic. And then I was able to talk them into hiring me full time after I graduated, and then I was there for about four years. We merged with PEN America in New York, and at that point, I had been in California my whole life, and I loved it so much. And then, but I, you know, I I had itchy feet a little bit. I had always thought about New York, and then this opportunity came up at the National Book Foundation to think about their national programming, and I was like, "Yeah, that's what I'm going to be doing. And so I got the job, moved to New York, and now it's been seven years, and it was really embarrassing when I got the job because I had talked such a talk of being like, "Who needs New York? I'm all about LA literary scene. Like it's so great, like total chip on my shoulder. And then I had to be like, actually, I'm I'm moving to New York for.

Traci Thomas 11:29

I'm moving to New York to be in the literary scene, the real literary scene. Yeah. Okay. Before we talk about your actual job at the National Book Foundation, obviously, I think most of my listeners are familiar with the National Book Awards which the National Book Foundation puts on. Can you tell us what else do you guys do? What are you guys up to over there between I don't know the rest of the year between everything besides September to November? What are you guys doing,

Natalie Green 11:59

Traci, thank you so much for asking. We are very much a year-round nonprofit organization. The way we kind of encapsulate it is the National Book Awards kind of fuel our year-round work, reaching readers everywhere. So, as the director of programs, I do a lot of thinking with my brilliant colleagues around how we get into pockets, big and small, rural, urban, and suburban, and just like infuse them with books and with literary programming and with writers, and just like how do we build readers at all ages, at all stages, in all places? And we, as of a couple of years ago, hit our goal to have programming in all 50 states, Washington D.C. and Puerto Rico, which has been a huge, exciting moment, and now we just launched a five-year strategic plan this past year to think about: okay, we hit that big goal that had been our goal for years and years and years, and now how do we keep doing this work sustainably? Keep deepening the work, and and keep thinking about the impact of what it means in this moment to stand up for books even louder and not like shrink back or change our ethos, which is very much that we believe that everyone deserves access to books, no matter who they are or where they are.

Traci Thomas 13:13

When you say like doing programming in all 50 states plus DC and Puerto Rico, what does that mean? Like I know you guys do I like I I've been to many book festivals where like you have a panel or something, but what does that really mean like for people? How are you connecting with people who aren't attending literary festivals? How are you connecting with people who aren't like quote unquote in the book scene? Because I know that's important to you guys.

Natalie Green 13:40

It's such a great question. I think we have a ton of different programs that kind of scale breadth and depth, and also like who we're talking to when we think about readers, whether they're readers in early days, people who don't identify as readers, or like huge, huge book lovers who are going to be the people in the front row at the book festivals. And I think our biggest program that is really about reaching and building new readers is our Book Rich Environments program, and we're currently in 63 communities around the country. We get donations directly from our amazing friends at different publishing companies and infuse them into public housing communities around the country. And that program really works in partnership on the ground with local PHAs and public library systems, and kind of building these local literary ecosystems from a young age from the ground up. And then we really think about like how do we create touchpoints then at different stages with different readers. So our newest education program is called the Teacher Fellowship, and so we have eight teaching fellows each year that we're supporting and celebrating their work directly in the classroom, building readers during the school day. So these are teachers from sixth to 12th grade, and so we're kind of like toggling and flexing our muscles at thinking about different kind of readers and meeting them at different stages, and then. Building the kind of readers that when I, you know, go to rural Kentucky and put on an author program for adults with readers, like building the kind of readers and kind of excitement of people who are going to go to that program. Yeah, and we also even with our adult programming, we work with different program types. So some of our biggest and splashiest urban centers might be at book festivals, but then we also work in more rural or suburban areas with public libraries and two and four year colleges and cultural centers, and really like co curating from the ground up with our local partners of like how do we get folks excited about books and about readers and coming into the doors to celebrate with us?

Traci Thomas 15:41

What do you personally? You don't have to represent the National Book Foundation. What do you personally make of? I mean, since you're since you are going to a lot of these places, you're on the ground of this idea that we're in a literacy crisis. Do you feel like in the seven years that you've been doing this work, plus the four years you were doing similar work in California, that you've noticed a difference, or like, have you noticed maybe not necessarily literacy, but like maybe turnout has changed, or like excitement around books, or like anything like what report from the ground for us?

Natalie Green 16:12

I mean, I think what I really saw, and I felt this more like less about like the death of reading, but more about as we came back from in-person programming post-pandemic, or I mean, we're always living in a different stage of the pandemic. But like in this moment of we're trying to gather in person again with events, what I found was we might have more attrition, so more people RSVPing to stuff, more folks not coming. That makes sense. We got used to not leaving our houses. We also probably have more competitive programming going on in any different day. Like there's more amazing organizations doing more stuff across the board, and then also like our attention's just divided. Like we could be going to an event, but we could also be watching a friend, be taking care of a parent, like X Y Z, so I think I definitely saw attrition go up. But then I saw the people in the room who wanted to be there, like the conversations that I was having having with readers were like some of the most meaningful conversations I had ever had in my career, and this is still happening. Like like the people in the room at in-person events-they like want to tell me about why they're there or why they drove six hours across Montana to get there, and like what it means to them to be like connecting and in conversation around books and topics that maybe they feel like are difficult to connect to outside of these spaces, and like how they feel held by books and writers and their fellow readers in this moment where, like, oh my God, everything's terrible and everything's just getting worse and worse. And like, I I'm like the first to admit that like I doom scroll so easily, or when I read the news, I just feel totally hopeless. And I think like the best part of my job, and why I'm like loath to give up being the person who's on the ground is like those. That's when the most meaningful stuff happens. Like that's what's given me hope. I'm like, oh, there are people that care about the same things that I care about in pockets like all over the country. Like, don't let them tell you otherwise, like the coastal elitism and like us not understanding who's in the middle. Like I think books and reading tells a different story.

Traci Thomas 18:30

Not that this is a commercial for the National Book Foundation, but people can donate to you guys. Like you guys are like a full-on nonprofit. I just feel like I have people here who listen to this show? Who actually like genuinely care about the work that you're doing? So if you're listening and you're like, "Oh, I want to throw money somewhere, maybe like you want to set up a monthly thing. I don't know. National Book Foundation seems like not a bad place to do it. Okay, I want to talk about the awards a little bit now. You know, I have a passion for predicting the awards, and I also have a track record of doing a terrible job, which is one of the things I'm most proud of. I just have no fucking clue. I'm a fake expert, and as we're recording this, it's you know before any announcements have come out, we have no idea. What I want to know is like at the offices, when do you guys find out about the long list, how much in advance do you know, and how long do you have to just pretend like like do you just stop making eye contact for those remaining days or whatever? Like, how does it work? I know the winner is like day of, yes, but you guys know the long list a little before because you guys got to make like social media and stuff.

Natalie Green 19:39

Yeah, no, you're exactly right, Traci. Like I could never talk to you in the span of time between when I find out and when it's not announced because, like, I would spill the beans. Our inherited lore is that one of our former executive directors, Harold, would not even tell his wife who the long list was, and we always. That on new staffers of like this is really serious business like you can't even whisper it to your cat like no no no but we get mere days with the information so we don't have to keep the cat out of the bag for too long and you're exactly right our incredible comms team led by Ollie Romero like goes into gear and prepping press releases and social assets and coordinating with our partners at the New Yorker, and then like before we know it, it goes live. So we don't have too long to flub the bag. This year, September 15, 16th, and 17th are the long list announcements, and we'll have all the final long list from our judges before the end of August, in order to like prep everything and get it locked and loaded,

Traci Thomas 20:44

I'm so glad it does not fall on September 11th this year because every year the week falls on September 11th. You guys don't announce, and there's like just like a day where I'm waiting between like poetry or like I'm waiting for poetry and nonfiction, but I already know translated and children's, and I'm like, why are you guys doing this to me? I hate it so much. I mean, obviously, it's a big day. I understand you guys are kind, kind to those lives we lost, but I am not a kind person. I am a monster, and I need to know who is on the nonfiction list and how many right I got out of 10.

Natalie Green 21:15

I think we all feel similarly, and that's why it's not on the week of September 11th this year.

Traci Thomas 21:20

Oh, oh!

Natalie Green 21:20

We moved it just ever so slightly. It's always so hard navigating.

Traci Thomas 21:25

It's always in the middle.

Natalie Green 21:27

Yeah, exactly.

Traci Thomas 21:28

It's always in the middle. Okay, now I want you to answer this question, and I don't want you to feel bad. Whatever the answer is.

Natalie Green 21:36

Oh no. Okay.

Traci Thomas 21:38

How many of the books that are long listed. Do you attempt to read before the winners are announced? What is your personal rule? There's no right or wrong answers. I know I've talked to other people off record who have been like, I just try to get to like as many as I can within the year, or I wait for the short list and try to hit one in each category. So I'm just curious, like, what your personal ethos is around the award lists each year.

Natalie Green 22:05

Oh, it's such a good question. I tell myself every year I will read as many books as humanly possible by a date.

Traci Thomas 22:15

Okay,

Natalie Green 22:17

and and I think I like try to be as vague as possible with myself because I'm like, how many am I realistically gonna be able to read? Like, it changes every year based on like how many events we have, how big the hefty the books are, and so I give myself like a full calendar year to really dig into like all 50 books, and then in fall I do admittedly do a bit of prioritization based around who is like getting confirmed simultaneously in programming. So I'll like prioritize reading those books first. I would say like during the fall, I probably like meaningfully get through 10 to 15, and then like less meaningfully get through like 30 of like trying to get a sense of like okay what is this book about what's the writer's voice and then collectively as a staff we do have a hard goal to read all 50 long listed titles before the Miami Book Fair in November and that's because the Miami Book Fair is one of our most special partners we've had a partnership with them for 13 years, and they're really unique because as soon as the long lists come out, they invite all of the long lists to the Miami Book Fair, which is always the weekend following the National Book Awards ceremony in New York. And the past couple of years, we've had like about like 30 authors and translators who've been able to go. So collectively, as a staff, we make sure we read all the books so that we have questions prepared for every single author. And since like sometimes their confirmations are a little slow, we don't know exactly who's going to come. Sometimes people accept really close. We want to just like have our backs covered and make sure that every author feels really celebrated and like their book has been deeply read by somebody, even if it's

Traci Thomas 24:03

how do you track this? Do you guys have a big poster with all 50 books, and then you like cross it off if someone's read it, or like how does it work?

Natalie Green 24:10

My exceptional colleague, our cleanest spreadsheets, Emily Lovett, who's our production manager, creates like this beautiful spreadsheet, and so we like put our initials in when we've like claimed a book, and then we have like a linking Google Doc where we put in all of our questions, and it's like truly a work of art.

Traci Thomas 24:28

Okay, I'm so sorry, but I have to have access to that at some point. Like I just need to see it. You know, I love a spreadsheet. You know, I love a link. Like I just, I, I don't, I just want viewing access. Like after the fact, I can wait till after the Miami thing. Like I don't need to know. I just want to see it. Like could I just have access for like 20 minutes? I just want to glance. You know, we could talk about this offline. I'm just floating out that I'd love an opportunity to just witness the beauty. Okay, last question before we kind of move on to your to your love of books and your taste in books. But do you have a favorite National Book Award book? It could be a long listed book, a short listed book, a winner. Is there one book to you that you're just like, this is the book?

Natalie Green 25:13

I mean, I feel like you maybe are gonna guess what I'm about to say.

Traci Thomas 25:18

I have literally no guess. So I now I'm really curious.

Natalie Green 25:23

Blackouts by Justin Torres.

Traci Thomas 25:25

Okay,

Natalie Green 25:26

won our fiction award two years ago, and Justin was one of my professors my last year at UCLA.

Traci Thomas 25:33

That's right. Oh yes, I remember this now.

Natalie Green 25:36

We the Animals was like a canonical text for me as like a young queer person. I like fell in love with the book, and then I was like lucky enough to like have like a single workshop with him. It was not meaningful, but I latched onto that man, and he was very nice about it. And then, like you know, a decade later, as part of my professional life, I not only got to see somebody who I believed is like one of our great writers like publish a second book that I think is like going to be a fundamental text for decades. Like for me, blackouts is like a feat of imagination, and and it brings in like such a world of like literary sources and acknowledgements and nods to, and like modernizes it in a way that to me I'm like this just feels like such an important work. And then to get to like celebrate it and see him win the National Book Award and then get to you know do events with him, it's just like then I think it's like a book that I think means so much to me on the page level, but then also just Justin as a person and in the world, I just feel like so lucky to to be alive at the same time as him

Traci Thomas 26:48

I I love this answer. I we read We the Animals last year for book club, oh, and I don't know what I was expecting, but I loved it way more than I thought that I would just based on nothing. I have blackouts and I haven't read it yet, but now I'm like even more excited to get to it because I loved it so much. But also, Justin unfortunately is a lovely human. It's a nightmare if you want to hate someone because they're handsome. It's not going to be him. Why does he look so hot? So talented, so kind. It's like ew, ew, and so stopping, charming. He's just great. Like it's just like oh, I want to hate you because you're the best at everything, and then you're like oh, I literally can't because you're perfect for real. It's it's just it's like yes, okay, I get it. I get it. Well, so well dressed.

Natalie Green 27:43

So well dressed. Such good fashion. And Traci, like, let me tell you, like Blackouts is totally different than Me the Animals. Okay, like he took so many risks with that book. Like for somebody who had like such a kind of built-in audience, hungry for a second book, like it is a total departure and just like so inventive and I can't wait for you to read it.

Traci Thomas 28:07

I'm excited. Okay, we're gonna cut to break and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk about books. We're not gonna make you talk about work anymore. We're gonna just have some fun. All right, we are back. I did not prep you for this. This is the one thing that you have to just do off the cuff. It's called Ask the Stacks. People email Ask the stacks@thestaxpodcast.com. People, please send us an email, and they ask us for a book recommendation. They tell us sometimes what they like, what they don't like, and we have to just like you know come up with a recommendation or two or three. I have three. You only have to do one, but if you have more, that's fine too. Here is what Teresa said: After you had Eve Ewing on the podcast discussing Original Sins, another teacher and I decided to organize a book club at our middle school in Minneapolis. So far, we have read Original Sins, The Seed Keeper push out. It's their world. Teen screens and the science of adolescence. We are not from here. The People's Project and Harriet Tubman live in concert. This has been an important way for our staff to build community through reading. Fiction or nonfiction are accepted, and we need more ideas. The school we work at has students from 23 different countries speaking 20 different languages. Our goal is to expand our knowledge around the communities we teach. So this feels like a pretty open request. As I was reading it, I was trying to sort of think like current issues. I did not go the fiction route because that's just not what my brain goes to when I think of current issues. I know a lot of people like to read about current issues through fiction. That's just not me. But you feel free to do that if you would like. I can go first, or you can go first if you have something.

Natalie Green 29:56

I want you to go first.

Traci Thomas 29:58

Okay, so the first. What I thought of is a book that I love that I've talked about many times. It's called The Faraway Brothers by Lauren Markham. It was written, I think, in 2017 or 2018. It's set in Oakland, California, but it's about twin boys who are unaccompanied minors who come to California and basically have to like they think they meet up with like a brother and he takes them in and they go to an international school in Oakland. And Lauren Markham, who wrote the book, who's a writer, she was their like advisor at the high school.

Natalie Green 30:29

Oh wow!

Traci Thomas 30:30

It's a really interesting book. It's really well told. It weaves in sort of like the history of sort of migration from Central America through Mexico. I believe the boys are from El Salvador, and I obviously thought of this with the connection to Minneapolis because of ice and all the shit that's going on. But I just thought it was a it's a really beautiful, well written book, and it also connects to schools. So I thought Teresa, since you guys are teachers, it might kind of help out. I'm gonna recommend my number two suggestion to be another day in the death of America by Gary Young, which is another nonfiction book. It's about 10 children across the United States who died from gun-related injuries, all on the same day. It's like November 23, 2016, or whatever. I can't remember the day, but he chronicles all the miners who died from gun violence on that day. Maybe not all of them. He he talks about 10 of them. There might be more. There might be less. But it's his attempt to be like, this is just a random day I picked. These are these people's stories. This is about gun violence and also about children. And then my last one, I went with a National Book Award winner, last year's nonfiction book that I love so very much. Oh yes! One day, everyone will have always been against this by Omar Ella Kod, who we had on the show here. This is a book about the West, you know, the lies that we tell ourselves about what it means to be exceptional, and what it means to be violent, and to be an empire, and to be assholes, and I think it's a really interesting thought exercise, especially for teachers, as we think about the ways that America continues to expose itself, and how we're going to talk about that with kids and each other, so those are my three recommendations. What do you have?

Natalie Green 32:26

Okay, I'll do some fiction complements.

Traci Thomas 32:29

Okay,

Natalie Green 32:30

the ones that immediately jumped to mind for me was "There, There" by Tommy Orange. Ooh, good one. I just feel like what an incredible debut that I think has like a relatively young person, like I think like a teenage adjacent perspective at the foreground, but then I think is just so like what he does is almost like collected stories of just like jumping between different perspectives and kind of building a community feeling is so. is so so so like well lived in. I mean, I feel like everybody and their brother and their mother is obsessed with James as a book club book, and I feel like is a great book to read and to think about in today's moment. I really appreciated Percival's touch on like on that right now on publishing that book right now yeah and then also our friends Robert and Talloo with his name is George Floyd

Traci Thomas 33:31

Minneapolis too

Natalie Green 33:32

yeah I think then that's a beautiful book oh my god like I just think the storytelling is exceptional I'm not as good of a nonfiction reader as you are, but that's a book that I think just the prose is so good.

Traci Thomas 33:46

It's so good. That was a book that I was like, I don't want to read this, and then I read it and I just started it and was like, this book is unreal. I mean, I told them I, I this my proudest award moment is that they were going to win the Pulitzer Prize, and I saw them in April, right before the Pulitzer Prize that year, and it was at the LA Times Book Festival. That's when I met them in person after they'd been on the show, and they were like, they didn't win the LA Times Book Prize, and they were like, you know, always the bridesmaid, never the bride. And I looked at Robert and I said, okay, but there's still one more.

Natalie Green 34:20

It's not over.

Traci Thomas 34:22

I was like, "There's still one more, and he told me that. Like after he won, I was like the third person he thought of. It was like himself, his parents, and then like me, Traci, because I had been like harassing them. Like, you are gonna win this fucking award. I don't care what anybody else does. I and then they were in two categories for the Pulitzer.

Natalie Green 34:43

Absolutely

Traci Thomas 34:44

I was like, "Come on, that was honestly that. As bad as I am at National Book Award predicting, I am equally good at Pulitzer predicting. That is my skill. You're bad at

Natalie Green 34:55

No one thinks you're bad aNational Book.

Traci Thomas 34:57

I am. My record is. Two, I think three. One year, I predicted three out of 10.

Natalie Green 35:03

Yeah, I think three is good. Three is better than I could do.

Traci Thomas 35:07

Three's fine. I'd love to get like seven this year, but I I'll be honest with you. This year, I have no clue because there's so many books coming out in September and October. We haven't even gotten to.

Natalie Green 35:22

Yeah,

Traci Thomas 35:22

and I've been reading all year. I think I've read like 80 books this year so far, and probably like 75% have been 2026 books. No clue. Normally, I work on a list all year where I just drop things in, things I hear about, things that I'm reading. My nonfiction list has two books so far. My prediction list has two. That's it.

Natalie Green 35:42

Are you going to tell me what they are?

Traci Thomas 35:44

One of my predictions is Days of Love and Rage by Anand Gopal, which is about Syria.

Natalie Green 35:48

Oh yeah, I haven't read it yet. I've heard good things.

Traci Thomas 35:51

It was good. It had. It's like it's like really impressive. I think that's one of mine. Pamela Coloff's book is sort of. I'm sort of thinking about it. I would like to see unreasonable women on the list. I think that that book didn't get enough attention. And one of the things I like about the National Book Award is that you guys sort of do things that aren't the one that I think you like the one that everybody talks about. So I sort of feel like you know it's possible. And on the fiction side, I don't know, dude. I'm reading The Disappearers right now. It is so good.

Natalie Green 36:31

Talk about like a what a writer, what a freaking writer.

Traci Thomas 36:36

Like for me to be like thinking about a 600 page novel, like in a loving way, like literally, like I'm like I can't. I I have back to school night for my kids tonight. I'm like after I get off with Natalie, I have like 30 minutes of work, and then I'm gonna read until I have to go to back to school night. Like that's how I'm thinking about this book.

Natalie Green 36:56

Beautiful.

Traci Thomas 36:57

So I don't, but I don't know. It's long. It's violent. It's like so intense, and you know this. The thing is, you never know what people are into, and like

Natalie Green 37:06

I know,

Traci Thomas 37:07

I don't know. So that one to me feels like just such a great book. But again, there's so many books. Like I haven't even dipped my foot into that Minjin Lee. There's like the Occidental Book of the Dead that I feel like there's the new Nafisa. Like there's so many things coming that I have no idea about. So, and then I don't touch young people poetry or translated. Like I like let's be honest, that's not for me. There are people who do that and I love them because I need them. But for me, it's like yeah, can't couldn't couldn't help there, but back to you. Two books you love, one book you hate.

Natalie Green 37:46

I'm very bad at favorites, but for you, I'll do anything. I think for the two books I love, I'm going to go with Her Body and Other Parties by Carmen Maria Machado, I will live and die for a short story collection. I think they get so much shit, and I think when done well, they can be like one of our most fun and inventive forms. And I think like such a good gateway for different kinds of readers who might not be ready to pick up like a full-length novel or nonfiction work, and I just love her body and other parties. It's so weird and funny, and oh, and gay. It's so good. It's so good, and we've already talked about Justin Torres a lot. So I will be more creative and do the Secret Lives of Church Ladies, and stay on my short story train, and just like if I could give Deesha Philyaw the world, I would again like such great short stories that pack a punch, and they're all so different. I think I love a story collection that doesn't feel like they have to fall in line with like the collected idea and just like want to serve you a different dish with every story and I think Deesha does that so well

Traci Thomas 39:10

and yet she does stay on theme

Natalie Green 39:13

100% yeah like it totally makes yes 100% and have you read her new novel yet

Traci Thomas 39:20

I started it I had to put it down because I had other things to read on a deadline. But I'm going back to it probably as soon as I finish online.

Natalie Green 39:28

Traci, like so fun. Um, just like the epitome of a book that I like wanted to read this summer, and it was just delicious. Like I loved it.

Traci Thomas 39:40

Yeah, she's so good. You know, there's also this other book that's also sort of on my prediction radar called "Desperate Bodies" by Lydia Mathis. I don't know if you've seen the cover. It's like a sky, and then it has like a black Barbie arm on the cover, and that's like it. The cover is so good looking that I'm just like, that's probably going to be on the National Book Award. Like, cause, like, that's how I predict. Also, I'm just like, yeah, sure, that looks good.

Natalie Green 40:04

I see that in an asset.

Traci Thomas 40:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, but you know, you gotta just like, you gotta just when you're predicting things like this, you gotta just like get a little weird, get a little random.

Natalie Green 40:17

So true.

Traci Thomas 40:18

Because also, like, if I predict Kin, which I probably will. Everyone's gonna predict Ken, so like I feel like I don't really get points for Kin. Do you know what I mean? Like I would, I'll take the points, but like if Ken ends up on the list, everyone from here to Timbuktu is gonna pick Ken. So it's sort of like, okay, well we all, you know, it's the the best book of the year. Like it's fine. So you know, I got it. You got to throw in something like other people aren't thinking about. Like the year I got three, I got that Sam Sacks book. That was my like crazy random pick. You're dead. I don't know how

Natalie Green 40:46

You're dead. A great book.

Traci Thomas 40:49

Nobody else had it. It was a good book. Nobody else had it, and I was like, wow.

Natalie Green 40:53

I I think it's because you're so smart when it comes to the indie presses, which I feel like a lot of people aren't tracking.

Traci Thomas 41:00

I feel like I'm not good at that, but that one was indeed.

Natalie Green 41:03

You think for like the when you're thinking about who's the outlier is gonna be, you pick the McSweeney's.

Traci Thomas 41:09

That's true. Well, I I I do always try to add one or two because I'm like there's gonna be one. Like so, I kind of do it like you know for fun. Like if it's like there's too many biographies on here, I got to take one off and just hope that the one that I pick because it's like the list isn't going to be seven biographies.

Natalie Green 41:24

Totally, yeah.

Traci Thomas 41:25

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Did you tell me a book you hate? You didn't. You tried to get out of it.

Natalie Green 41:30

Wait, I honestly don't have one. I think I just don't read them. Like I think if I don't like a book, I don't finish it

Traci Thomas 41:37

You've never read a book you hated. My listeners are going to eat you up if you don't give us an answer.

Natalie Green 41:41

Really, I'm trying to think of a like a a book in school that I like a class that I didn't like. I guess. Well, I don't know that I hated it.

Traci Thomas 41:52

Oh my gosh,

Natalie Green 41:53

I didn't really care for of mice and men.

Traci Thomas 41:56

Oh okay, okay, we'll take that.

Natalie Green 41:58

Yeah, it wasn't my favorite.

Traci Thomas 42:01

Does that just mean everything you read is just like it's good? Like I don't.

Natalie Green 42:06

Yeah, I mean I have the luxury, Traci, of like brilliant people basically curating my reading list. Like I read National Book Award honored books, and I just feel like there's been so much thought put behind how they ended up in front of me that that's I feel very lucky for the kind of reading I get to do for work.

Traci Thomas 42:25

but like before, you had this job. You you were great. You you loved the girl with the dragon tattoo. You just love everything.

Natalie Green 42:33

Oh, I think I did kind of like the girl with the dragon tattoo.

Traci Thomas 42:35

I think people like that too. I'm just trying to think. Like there's just so many books.

Natalie Green 42:39

Yeah. Wait. What do you hate? Because I think sometimes if I give, I have a bad memory. So sometimes if somebody tells me a book they hate, I'm like, oh yeah, I didn't like that.

Traci Thomas 42:47

Well, my most hated book from school was The Awakening. Did you have to read that?

Natalie Green 42:51

Oh, I was kind of into The Awakening.

Traci Thomas 42:53

I bet you were. I could see that. I think you guys have. I think you guys. This might have been a National Book Award, long listed book. I can't remember. It got something. Maybe it was Kirkus. I got some some love. It was called "The Line Becomes a River" by Francisco Cantu. I fucking hated that book. It was like about immigration, and he like becomes like an ice. I hated that.

Natalie Green 43:19

I haven't read it, but I know exactly what book you mean.

Traci Thomas 43:21

yeah. I a lot of Malcolm Gladwell I've hated over the years.

Natalie Green 43:25

I refuse to read.

Traci Thomas 43:28

Yeah, there's been so much. I mean, I judged a book prize, and there were a lot of books on that list, and I was like, "Boo, go home!"

Natalie Green 43:35

I think if I had to do something like that, where I was really wading through the trenches, there would be plenty that I would just like not even try.

Traci Thomas 43:40

Yeah. So I don't know. I you know, but I hate a lot of things. Like, oh, I hated yesteryear. Hated yesteryear. Hated tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Hate that book too.

Natalie Green 43:50

I thought that was problematic.

Traci Thomas 43:53

Yeah, it was bad. Anyways, okay, let's move on. I could do this. Like honestly, I could just do a whole episode of me listing books.

Natalie Green 44:00

But see, I think yesteryear is a good example, Traci, because I heard what was coming in, and I go, "That's not a book for me, and I just didn't"

Traci Thomas 44:08

I read that before it came out. I hadn't heard any buzz. I mean, I had heard buzz around it, but nobody that I knew and trusted had read it totally. As I was reading it, like a few other friends were reading it at the same time, but it hadn't come out, and so I was like, "Let me just read this because it's gonna be buzzy.

Natalie Green 44:24

And my job, I get really bratty about, and there are some recent examples over this that I will not name because of my role. Is a debut book by a young white woman, often younger than myself, who you can tell just gets the whole imprints marketing budget, yeah. And it's not even that I hate the book. Sometimes I read the book. Sometimes I think the book's good. Sometimes I think the book's not great. Sometimes I think the book's whatever. But when they get the whole house behind them in a way that I feel is undeserved, that's when I get really bratty and I text my friends.

Traci Thomas 44:59

I mean, me too. The amount of text messages that have been going on this particular book season around this exact issue, I have it's been a lot. I agree. I think the thing it's frustrating because it feels like undeserved, right? It's like a debut, but it's also frustrating to me because I'm like, this is one of the big problems with publishing is that the people who are making these decisions, actually genuinely believe this is the most deserving book.

Natalie Green 45:29

Literally, they actually think this book is groundbreaking,

Traci Thomas 45:33

right?

Natalie Green 45:34

And then you pick it up and you go, "No, it's not."

Traci Thomas 45:36

There was a thread yesterday. Some woman posted that was like, "I've thought a lot about this, and she was like an author, and I was like, "Here, like the way to become a mega bestseller is to like write a book and get people who don't consider themselves to be readers to read it. And I just quote quoted her thread and wrote, "And be white, because like, let's be fucking honest, that is the thing. It has nothing to do with getting non readers to read it. If they're reading your book, the or no, it was getting non-readers to buy it. That's what she was saying. It's like you like like how many people have like I think she was like how many people have this book by like Bill Clinton. A lot of people, but they probably haven't read it. But I'm like also white like it like let's not pretend that that's not a piece of this puzzle. But yeah, it's definitely frustrating. I mean, I think that that's why, like, I for the most part really like book awards because unlike in film, where film awards are sort of self congratulatory for the industry, I do feel like in book awards you're gonna get a "You're Dead" by Sam Sachs, right? Yeah, like that is not ever probably gonna hit the New York Times bestseller list. It's never gonna be an Amazon pick or whatever, and like in a way that in the movie space, it's super duper rare that a movie that's small and unknown would ever because like the way the campaigning works and the way that the the way that like the different studios put so much money behind. Totally, and it does happen in the book space, but it's just it's just so different. So like a book will go onto my radar because of awards in a way that a movie generally I already know. Like maybe something I thought could get an Oscar nom does or doesn't, but like I've generally heard of most of them. Like

Natalie Green 47:20

yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:20

I don't know.

Natalie Green 47:21

I mean, I think it's one of the things that I like take the most pride in about like the way the National Book Awards is structured is like the judges. You're being adjudicated by your peers. You're being adjudicated by deep readers who are taking this so so so very seriously, and who are kind of like refusing to think of anything other than like what do we think are the best books in this moment for us? A group of five people who are coming from totally different perspectives, and I think that sort of consensus building and like the peculiarities of each of those readers. Like I think that's what you're so good at calling out, Traci. Is like you can't make too many educated guesses about the long list because, like, when those five different people get in a room together, like, how are their reading tastes gonna like diverge and come together?

Traci Thomas 48:15

Yeah, yeah, and like, yeah, no, I the judging part is always really fun too. Of like, well, what would Lauren Groff think about this? Exactly, like I don't fucking know. I don't even know her. Like I don't know what does she think.

Natalie Green 48:28

You and Lauren should be friends, Traci.

Traci Thomas 48:30

Well I met hvirtually, I met her virtually, like for Riverhead things. But I just like it's like I pretend to know like what Steph Chaw is gonna think about fiction, and I'm just like I don't know, and I know Stepcha. Like I've seen, like she's here in LA, but it's like you have no idea. Oh yeah, okay, okay. Back to you. Back to you. I keep getting so excited. How many books, on average, do you think you read in a year?

Natalie Green 48:53

Traci, believe it or not, I don't track.

Traci Thomas 48:56

Okay, what's your guess? How many books do you think you read a month?

Natalie Green 48:59

Um, I think my guess for a year would be somewhere between like 60 and 80.

Traci Thomas 49:04

That's really good. Those are great numbers. Those are great numbers. I think those are great numbers. What are you reading right now? And do you read multiple books at once?

Natalie Green 49:13

Oh, I don't actually really love to read multiple books at once. I do when I'm getting into my fall frenzy and I'm trying to read, and then I feel like the only way my attention span can really do it is when I'm reading across our different genre categories.

Traci Thomas 49:28

Okay,

Natalie Green 49:28

but I like to read one book at a time, and right now I'm reading Paradiso 17 by Hannah Lil Thasadi. We're doing she's on our panel for Brooklyn Book Festival this year, and oh my God, what a beautiful freaking book, inspired by her late father. And I'm only about like a quarter of the way in, but it's really, really beautifully, beautifully done. I love it.

Traci Thomas 49:52

What are some books you're looking forward to reading? Could be books that are out already. Could be books that are coming. Just like. That are on your immediate TBR,

Natalie Green 50:02

our 2026 National Book Award long list, which will be announced September 15th, 16th, and 17th, and I don't even know what they are yet, but they're going to take over my life. So this is the time of year where I start like clearing the deck. Nothing else is getting through.

Traci Thomas 50:16

What are you squeezing in? Because we're recording this on August 25th. So what are you squeezing in between now and september 15? Like before you have to go there, is there something that you're like? It could be backlist. It could be like I've always wanted to read something.

Natalie Green 50:31

I think I've missed my window, like so lame. But I'm prepping for Brooklyn Book Festival, so I'm reading those authors' books, which is also for work. The last book that I read on vacation that I squeezed in was a recommendation from my friend Katie at Simon and Schuster. She's an editor, and it's a book she edited called "All That Is Left of Life. Okay, the book is so good. It's giving oh my god, it's giving Elena Ferrante. It's written by an Italian author, translated into the English, and it's like murder mystery. Like young woman is murdered at the beginning. It's kind of like a whodunit moment, family saga across a couple of generations. There's some love story thrown in. It was very good. It was very good, and I feel like it is a book that will blow up if the Ferrante people get into it and get their eyes on it.

Traci Thomas 51:26

Okay, what's a book you love to recommend to people?

Natalie Green 51:31

Oh, I feel like I'm most often recommending like hyper specific books for people who are telling me about their tastes, but like a more like universal book. If somebody I meet at a party is like, I don't read very much. Like, what's a book that's good to get back into it? I normally do Goodbye Vitamin by Rachel Kong because she's it's all little vignettes, and I find that book really easy to put like pick up and put down, and it's so it's so bittersweet, like such a moving story about Alzheimer's. And then the other one that I do is Less by Andrew Strong Grier, which I feel like is self-explanatory. Such like a dose of like sweetness and silliness.

Traci Thomas 52:16

I didn't love that book.

Natalie Green 52:17

Oh, really? I like that book.

Traci Thomas 52:19

Maybe too sweet and silly for me, you know.

Natalie Green 52:21

Yeah, I, I like. I literally will be like, if you like that. If it's somebody who's like, a little life is my favorite book, I'm like, oh I don't recommend it

Traci Thomas 52:29

My sort of recent go to like for anybody has been James and Martyr.

Natalie Green 52:36

James for sure, and Martyr for younger people,

Traci Thomas 52:42

yeah, yeah. Well, old people don't ask me anything. They don't respect me.

Natalie Green 52:46

But James for any age.

Traci Thomas 52:47

James for anybody. Martyr has been martyr is sort of like when I have friends who aren't like big readers, but who sort of like think that they like weird. Like I can't give them real weird, you know, because like literary weird can go very far, like too far for me by by by far. But like Martyrs, sort of like, oh, you you like weird? Okay, here's like weird.

Natalie Green 53:07

It's a little teaser.

Traci Thomas 53:09

But then I know I'm like, there are so many readers who are like, this book is not even close to weird compared to.

Natalie Green 53:15

Oh, I feel like Martyr's so fun because like after people read it, if I recommend it to them, they love to text and be like, "What did you think about the ending?"

Traci Thomas 53:22

Oh yeah

Natalie Green 53:23

So it's like years later, and I'm still getting those texts from people. Yeah, just finished Martyr. What did you think about the ending?

Traci Thomas 53:30

I love that book. They were the same year National Book Awards. That was the year I got to go

Natalie Green 53:35

It was a good year because you were there.

Traci Thomas 53:38

Obviously, everyone really brought their A game. John Baptiste. He was there. Barbara Kingsolver. She was great. She was great. Are there any genres that you sort of love or that you avoid, or maybe just like don't read a ton of? It doesn't have to be that you're actively like I don't read that, but just like this is not in my repertoire.

Natalie Green 54:02

I would say I don't read a ton of poetry left to my own volition, so I read a fair amount for work. And kind of like when I'm not reading for work, it's not necessarily a genre I would reach for. And also like when I am reading it, I'm like, oh, why don't I read more poetry? Like it's so, it uses a different part of my brain. I feel than reading like fiction or nonfiction. And I think part of why I don't gravitate towards it is because you have to slow down with it. And I'm not very good at doing that when I'm reading.

Traci Thomas 54:36

Same, super same.

Natalie Green 54:38

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 54:39

Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Natalie Green 54:41

You and me books in Chinatown, run by the amazing Lucy Yu. Just what an amazing space that she has created, and I'm infinitely grateful for it.

Traci Thomas 54:53

What's your ideal reading setup?

Natalie Green 54:56

My partner's great grandfather built a cabin on Lake Michigan.

Traci Thomas 55:02

Okay,

Natalie Green 55:02

and my favorite reading setup is either like floating on the water with a book, or being in the proximity, like on a beach chair or on a wooden chair, and just like listening to the lake and reading next to it.

Traci Thomas 55:18

Is this in the summertime? Do you like to do it in the winter time? What about snacks and beverages?

Natalie Green 55:24

Oh my god, I don't snack while I read, but I do like to.

Traci Thomas 55:29

Natalie, you don't hate books and you don't snack while you read. You are gonna get eaten up by the stacks pack.

Natalie Green 55:34

Okay, well, they should talk to me about eating any other time. It's like my favorite subject.

Traci Thomas 55:39

Okay, what's your go-to snack?

Natalie Green 55:41

Just in life?

Traci Thomas 55:42

Yeah,

Natalie Green 55:43

Cheez-Its

Traci Thomas 55:44

Okay, we respect this. I'm more of a goldfish girl myself, but I respect a Cheez it

Natalie Green 55:48

I respect a goldfish as well.

Traci Thomas 55:49

There's a large Cheez it contingent in the Stacks Pack. They like when there's like new flavors released. Grace, shout out. She'll review them for us. She'll let us know. Let's go in on the Stacks Pack Discord is alive and well, babe. Grace, we love the work you do for this community as our Cheez It correspondent on the ground. What's the last book that made you laugh?

Natalie Green 56:14

Oh, that's such a sweet question. Shit, it was. I remember being like, "This is the first time I've laughed in a while, and it was a book by a British author, and I was like, "Oh, I think I just haven't read a book by a British author in a while, and it was really making me do some like guffaws out loud. But now I can't tell you what the book was. I'm gonna look it up after we get off, so you know.

Traci Thomas 56:39

Okay, if if you find it, I'll put it in the show notes. What about the last book that made you cry?

Natalie Green 56:49

Like maybe Omar's book.

Traci Thomas 56:51

Okay, I don't really cry when I read, but I just read Kramer versus Kramer, and I like wept. It was so

Natalie Green 56:56

I'm not a big crier than I read, but I think there was like, yeah, there was a moment in Omar's book where I was like,

Traci Thomas 57:05

"What about the last book where you felt like you learned a lot?

Natalie Green 57:08

Ooh, Flashlight by Susan Choi. Have you read this book?

Traci Thomas 57:12

No.

Natalie Green 57:13

Oh my God, it was so good. I, I think she's one of the best like living writers. But there was just so much there. Like the pros of it was like, like you know, relatively traditional family saga across a couple of different generations, yada yada yahoo. But like the cultural, like context for the story, I felt like I was learning so much. It was amazing. It was so well done.

Traci Thomas 57:40

I'm gonna steal yada yada yahoo because that's incredible. I'm like that. That is so good. Speaking of things that are so good, what's a book that brings you joy?

Natalie Green 57:50

Oh, a book that brings me joy. Pride and Prejudice.

Traci Thomas 57:57

Another book.

Natalie Green 57:57

Do you hate Pride and Prejudice?

Traci Thomas 57:58

It's just you know, not for me, but I did like Pride by Ibi Zoboi.

Natalie Green 58:06

Oh, really?

Traci Thomas 58:07

That was very cute.

Natalie Green 58:08

I love that.

Traci Thomas 58:08

Is there a book that you're embarrassed that you have never read?

Natalie Green 58:15

Like countless. I feel like because my job is like trying to keep up with books that were just published, like I haven't read so many books, both books that like haven't been honored of the current moment, but also like I feel like so many books that people consider canonical texts. Like if I wasn't assigned them in high school or college, I have not read them.

Traci Thomas 58:37

Yeah, I have a lot of those. Do you have any favorite books about Los Angeles?

Natalie Green 58:44

I feel like I used to have so many. I mean, the first one that comes to mind is The Sellout by Paul Beatty. I love that book, and that book to me just like that feels like home. That feels like LA.

Traci Thomas 58:56

Yeah. Okay. Two more questions. If you were a high school teacher, any subject you want. What was the book you would assign to your students?

Natalie Green 59:08

Oh my God, maybe the Undocumented Americans by

Traci Thomas 59:15

Yeah

Natalie Green 59:16

Such a good book, and I feel like for especially I think if I was like upper middle high school. I feel like that's such a good book for students.

Traci Thomas 59:23

That's actually probably a good book for Teresa and her book club.

Natalie Green 59:26

Yes, add it to the list.

Traci Thomas 59:28

Add it to the list, Teresa. Ask the stacks@thestackspodcast.com. Last one. If you could require the current president of the United States of America to read one book, what would it be?

Natalie Green 59:40

Traci?

Traci Thomas 59:41

I know.

Natalie Green 59:42

What would you do?

Traci Thomas 59:43

I don't know. You know, I started this question when I started the show. It was Trump. I was so excited when Joe Biden became president for obvious reasons, but also because I was like, "Thank God. And then when Trump came back, this question is like the bane of my existence now, but it's I have always done the same first and last question. I'm not going to let that fucking loser change my podcast. So I don't know. There's so many books. There's so many books, and I know that it's like he can't read or like. But the spirit of the question is like you have to assume that he could and would read this book that you assign.

Natalie Green 1:00:22

I guess if I'm assuming that he could and would, which I feel like is the hardest thing to assume.

Traci Thomas 1:00:28

Yeah

Natalie Green 1:00:30

maybe something like Good Talk by Mira Jacob.

Traci Thomas 1:00:32

Oh, okay, he could read that.

Natalie Green 1:00:34

Like literally, I'm thinking this is an accessible book.

Traci Thomas 1:00:38

Yeah, yeah,

Natalie Green 1:00:39

A graphic novel, a graphic memoir, you can do it.

Traci Thomas 1:00:42

That book is so good.

Natalie Green 1:00:44

It's so freaking good, and I feel like it could make even a person without a heart have a heart. Is how I feel. So

Traci Thomas 1:00:50

was that a National Book Award long list?

Natalie Green 1:00:53

No and that was our loss.

Traci Thomas 1:00:56

Yeah, big time. So good. Okay, well, party people, I have a few things to tell you. First things first, this was Natalie Green. She's the best, isn't she? I told you you'd love her. Two, Natalie will be back on september 30 for the Stacks Book Club. We're discussing National Book Award finalist book. That's why we picked it. We we only looked through nonfiction long list finalist winners, and we're reading "Brother, I'm dying by Edwidge Danticat because for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is that Natalie sort of was like, I do like creative memoirs, and I was like, okay. And I went back and I looked, Natalie. We have not done a true memoir on this podcast since like 2022 or 2023. I don't know how that happened.

Natalie Green 1:01:41

I was shocked to see how much fiction you guys do, knowing you.

Traci Thomas 1:01:44

Yeah, well, fiction is sometimes easier to discuss in a lot of ways, and also with the nonfiction. Like we do a lot of nonfiction. We probably do like close to 5050 every year, though this year has been more fiction than normal. But anyways, so we're doing that for book club. Y'all can get your books wherever you get your books. If you go to Reparations Club's website, rep rep club, and use the code Stacks 10, you get 10% off the book, and they'll send it to you, and they'll probably like write like a little cute note in it because they're the best. But then the other thing, as a reminder, National Book Award long lists will drop between now when you're listening and when you hear from Natalie again on September 30th. Depending on how it goes, you know I might mention it in the next recording. We're not recording part two till after they drop, so you know I might mention it. We'll see. But the plan is to read "Brother, I'm Dying. Join us for that. I'm really excited. This has been on my list for a very long time. So me too. Thank you so much for doing this, Natalie.

Natalie Green 1:02:46

Thank you, Traci. I had a blast. I could talk to you for all day and all night, but I know you have some reading to do.

Traci Thomas 1:02:52

Marlon James, I'm coming for you, babe. But everyone else, we will see you in the stocks. All right, y'all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Natalie Green for joining the show. I'd also like to say a big thank you to Ale Romero for helping to make this episode possible. Our book club pick for September is "Brother, I'm Dying" by Edwidge Danticat, which we will discuss on Wednesday, September 30th, with Natalie Green. If you like the show, maybe you even love the show. You want to support it. You want inside access to it. Head to Patreon.com/thestax to join the Stacks pack and check out my newsletter at tracy thomas.substack.com. Please take a moment right now. Look at your phone. Look at your computer. Look at wherever you're listening to us, and make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you're hearing my voice. If you're listening through Apple Podcasts and Spotify, do you have like 30 more seconds to just leave us a quick rating and a review? I know it seems like a tedious, annoying thing that I ask you to do every week, but it helps people discover the show and discover what they're gonna get when they listen to the show. So it's a big help. If you could do it, I would love it. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod on Instagram, Threads, and YouTube, and you can check out our website any and all times @thestackspodcast.com. Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenyas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Shri Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagurigis. The stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Traci Thomas
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Ep. 439 Fish Tales by Nettie Jones — The Stacks Book Club (Sequoia Holmes)