Ep. 395 DIY Fame with Jade Chang

Written By Stacks Assistant
Jade Chang | What a Time to Be Alive

Today on The Stacks, we are joined by author and journalist Jade Chang to discuss her newest novel, What a Time to Be Alive. This book follows Lola Treasure Gold, a down-on-her-luck 31-year-old balancing accidental internet fame with enduring grief after her speech at her best friend’s wake goes viral. We discuss the book’s 20-year journey, the ways fame and celebrity culture have evolved in that time, and the unexpected pleasures of grief.

The Stacks Book Club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, October 29th, with our guest Angela Flournoy.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Jade Chang 0:00

I really, really wanted every story turn to feel so emotionally earned. You know, grief, as much as it flattens you, it can also just tear you open. Yeah, and I think when that happens, one you do, you feel like you're interacting with the world in a different way, right? And then I think you are also you do have the sense that like Life is short. You don't know what's going to happen. Let me try like, I guess I will do this. And of course, it doesn't affect everyone in the same way, but I think that kind of effect is familiar to all of us. You know.

Traci Thomas 0:49

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by author and journalist Jade Chang. She's here to discuss her new book. What a Time to Be Alive. In this novel, Chang's down on her luck. Protagonist Lola Treasure Gold gains accidental internet fame when a video of her speaking at her late best friend's wake goes viral, launching her into a career as a self help guru. Today, Jade and I talk about the industry of influencing. We talk about audience and how Jade's perspective has changed over her years as an author, and we talk about people as punctuation marks. As a reminder, our book club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, which we will discuss on Wednesday, October 29 with Angela Flournoy. Everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks is linked in the show notes. If you like this podcast and want more bookish content and community, consider joining the stacks pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter Unstacked on Substack, each place offers different perks like community conversations and virtual book clubs over on Patreon, and my writing and hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture trends over on Substack, plus your support makes it possible for me to make The Stacks every single week to join head to patreon.com/the stacks and/or TraciThomas.substack.com. Now it's time for my conversation with Jade Chang.

All right, everybody. I'm so excited today I am joined by friend of the pod who has never actually been on the pod, but I think we're friends. The author of the brand new book. What a Time to Be Alive. Jade Chang, Jade, welcome to The Stacks.

Jade Chang 2:30

Hi, Traci. It is a real pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:34

I'm so excited to have you. I guess when did was the first time we met, because you're an LA author, and I know that you did the fire event, yes, and I remember talking to you there, but did we meet before?

Jade Chang 2:45

We've met it like a reading or something like that, before? Yeah, and I feel like we have friends in common.

Traci Thomas 2:50

I just think of you as a friend. Yeah, you have good energy. So I'm always like, oh, Jade, she's the best. And not to do too much lovey dovey at the top. Yeah, you gotta earn it. I'm a serious journalist. Can you tell folks, in like, 30 seconds or so what the book is about?

Jade Chang 3:09

Ooh, okay, the book is about a year in the life of Lola Treasure Gold, and when we meet her, she is at a real low point in her life. You know, she's 31 things have not been coming together for her. She's been trying a lot of things worse than all of that, one of her best friends, and really the kind of friend who you think like, oh, maybe they won't just be a friend forever. Maybe we have some kind of future together. One of her best friends has just died, and we actually open on his funeral. But because, through it's kind of a series of events, I know, I know you're a very no spoilers podcast, so I won't detail it. We're low spoilers. We're lows, okay, okay. Well, through a series of events...

Traci Thomas 3:58

This is, this is important plot. Like this is important. This is in the copy, so I don't think this is

Jade Chang 4:03

Okay. She essentially holds forth on what she thinks would be an ideal cult to start. And then someone kind of chops up that video, puts it online in a very appealing package. It goes viral. And then all of a sudden, Lola finds that she has all these people kind of following her and wanting to know what she has to say about the world. And she kind of thinks, all right, let me try. Let me try to be here I am in this position of being perhaps a self help guru, not quite a cult leader. And we kind of follow along through this, through this time, as she figures out what she wants in life. If she can do this, what it is to tell people what to believe, what she believes, what it means to commodify belief all of that.

Traci Thomas 5:03

I love it. Yeah, I think it's such a, like genius idea for a book, especially in this moment of, like, online influencing and obviously, you know, I have to tread sort of lightly here, because I felt slightly seen and attacked by Lola.

Jade Chang 5:20

Oh, tell me more.

Traci Thomas 5:22

I'm sort of, I do think that I'm sort of like an online influencer, person who tells people what to think about things, not about like religion or whatever. Like, I'm not like a mindfulness expert, but I definitely feel like, you know, there's parts of this book that I was that that spoke to some of the things that I think about a lot, not necessarily that I am quite on the level of Lola, but I definitely was like, right when you talk about things online and offer opinions to the world, yeah, kind of can't control what happened from there.

Jade Chang 5:56

Did you feel attacked, or did you feel seen?

Traci Thomas 6:00

Well, I think both. I think Lola and I are the same age. Oh, okay, yeah, I did, I think I did the math. My sense, she was born in 1986 right?

Jade Chang 6:09

She is born in 1986 Yes, sometimes I forget the details of the things that I wrote.

Traci Thomas 6:15

Yeah, well, I'm sure you made that detail a long time ago. Anyways, so I did feel, feel seen, I did feel not attacked, but I'm definitely, I think that I am probably more critical of influencer culture than most people, because I think about it a lot. Like, I'm thinking about, like, what am I doing? What does this mean? And like, the capitalism of it all and the modification of it all, and like, what is the responsibility so, like, I think it just made me think about all of these things more, yeah, which I appreciate it, yeah. And also sometimes felt like Jade hates me.

Jade Chang 6:50

No!

Traci Thomas 6:53

No, I didn't really feel that. But where did you get the idea for this? Where did you come up with this book?

Jade Chang 7:00

So I have been trying to write this book for so long Traci. I actually started writing it over 20 years ago, right when I graduated from college. I, you know, I graduated from college, I knew I needed to get a real job and pay off student loans, etc, etc, but I did take a job teaching English in Japan for a year, and I was like, All right, in that year, I'm gonna write a novel, which was very naive, especially now that I know what a slow, slow writer I am, but I wanted, so during that year, I tried to write this book. And I even then, I knew I wanted to write about someone who was accidentally thrust into fame and who had to decide, you know, how she wanted to use that fame. In that version of the book, it was more culty, Yeah, but then so I wrote that

Traci Thomas 8:01

Because you didn't have social media.

Jade Chang 8:03

You didn't have social media, everything happened on TV. Isn't that crazy?

Traci Thomas 8:07

Yeah, 20 years ago, like MySpace, maybe was, like, the only thing?

Jade Chang 8:13

No, it wasn't

Traci Thomas 8:15

It did. It did.

Jade Chang 8:16

So this was, but like, a little earlier than that, but, yeah

Traci Thomas 8:20

Yeah. So everything happened on tv. Okay, I see. And then, and then you just couldn't quite get this out of your, like you just felt compelled to come back to it

Jade Chang 8:31

Yeah, I wrote it by hand in a notebook, and I lost it, and it was devastating. And I was like, I'm never gonna write again. The world is over. Who knows what I'll do now, you know? And, yeah, so I kind of couldn't go back to this story for a little while. But after I finished The Wangs and, you know, I was thinking about what to write, there was kind of no question. I knew I wanted to do this.

Traci Thomas 9:01

And then did you have to shift? I mean, how much were you, I guess, when you then decided to write it in this totally different world where social media exists and, like, there's a job or like, a kind of person that exists, that is a prototype of sorts for Lola, how like did you research? What did you do? How did you actually come to this story again fresh, because it doesn't feel dated, like it doesn't feel like this is a story about people on TV that you just were like, oh, TV is now Instagram.

Jade Chang 9:33

No. I mean, luckily, I have a terrible memory, so I didn't really remember, like, anything that I wrote back then. You know, honestly, if social media had not kind of taken root and unfolded the way that it did, I don't know that I would have gone back to the story. I think part of what really interested me about it was how, because I think in the original conception, sure, I mean, in the past, people were occasionally suddenly thrust into fame, right? But every person did not go through life kind of thinking that it could happen to them, you know, right?

Traci Thomas 10:13

Yeah, right, right, right, right.

Jade Chang 10:15

Like, I think the widespreadness, the accessibility, like all of that, has changed. And I think that the other big difference is that social media means that if you find yourself in that situation, you have the tool to kind of put yourself in front of people over and over again, right? You have the tool to kind of make that choice for yourself, rather than try to appeal to other people

Traci Thomas 10:40

You don't need an agent or a manager, or you don't need to get called by Oprah, whatever you can just, like, put yourself out there. DIY fame, baby.

Jade Chang 10:51

It's true! I mean, we're all doing some version of it.

Traci Thomas 10:56

We are. I know it's horrible, I hate it. As a person who does that, I really hate it!

Jade Chang 11:03

Here we are, yeah

Traci Thomas 11:04

I know what's that about? Why does everybody hate it and still, like, use it and love it and and like, like, there's a woman that I know sort of loosely. I won't say how or any more details, because I don't want someone to know who I'm talking about, who is just like a regular person. She's like a regular woman that I know, and she is always posting, like influencer content, but she is not an influencer, so it'll be like, Oh, this shirt, okay, like, going to the market, got my nails done, and it's this weird thing where I'm like, Are you trying to be a influencer, or are we so fucked up in the head that people can't tell the difference between living their life and posting about it versus, like, turning their life into content. And I'm obsessed with her because I don't understand.

Jade Chang 12:00

I want to know who she is.

Traci Thomas 12:01

Well, I'll send you later, but I don't understand, like, I don't know, and I guess it's what you're talking about that's like everybody sort of feels like, hey, it could happen for me, like I could become the person who blows up and becomes, like a style icon. I don't know. I think about this all the time.

Jade Chang 12:24

I think about it this way, okay, one, first of all, she's only not an influencer because she doesn't have a ton of followers, right? Like, correct? If she did, then essentially, she would have, she would be an influencer. Brands would probably be interested. She would be getting invited to things, etc, right? But also, I think we have always kind of, and obviously this is not every single human right, but some portion of the population has always kind of wanted to mimic like what we see a celebrity doing, or, for example, think about, like the glamour shots in the mall, right? Like, from, well probably

Traci Thomas 13:08

Right, yes

Jade Chang 13:09

They were around, like, in the 90s, yeah. Um, I mean that is mimicking, like a celebrity photo shoot, really. Like, the reason people are getting them is because they want to look like, like, glamorous. You know, it's really this. It's not that different.

Traci Thomas 13:28

It's not that different. I think the thing that's different to me, in my mind, and I'll just keep using this woman that nobody knows who I'm talking about, and a lot of people who are not yet influencers, but yeah, maybe are trying to be like, maybe they want a side hustle is that it's all the same content, it's all the same jeans, it's all the same shoes, it's all and there's no point of view. And I feel like what is important for for people who are successful as influencers is that they have a point of view about the thing in which they're influencing. And I feel like in your book, Lola does have a point of view about and like, people hear that and they're like, Oh, this is different. And I feel like in the sort of wannabe influencer lane that a lot of people find themselves is that they're just going on Amazon and they're buying the same jellies as everyone else, and being like, look at my market shoes, and I'm like, but I already saw that, yeah, on an influencer who has a lot more followers, you know, like, so it's, it's like a weird other thing, like, it's like, you're not actually influencing anybody, you're just wearing the same thing as everyone else and talking about it. Like, you came up with it, but you didn't come up with it. Because I already saw, you know, hot bags and shoes. You know, @hotbagsandshoes talking about them

Jade Chang 14:44

I think that, and, you know, it's interesting. I think in this book, I really don't get into that lane of influencing very much

Traci Thomas 14:53

Like, follower who, yeah, regurgitates kind of thing

Jade Chang 14:57

Yeah regurgitates, like, 10 fall trends, like, kind of a thing.

Traci Thomas 15:00

Yes, yes.

Jade Chang 15:01

And I do, I really feel like that is just like the internet manifestation of, like, popular kid culture, you know what? I mean, like in a high school being like, oh, I'm gonna, okay, everyone has Uggs. I'm gonna get them too. You know it is. It's a version of that.

Traci Thomas 15:23

In high school, you just wear it and you shut up. And everybody knows that you're just like, trying to be cool, right? This is like, let me tell you about it, because it's like, it's like a stand in for your actual life, right? It's like making these kind of lists or whatever. It's a stand in from actually just living your life and wearing your Uggs. And just like taking a picture of yourself out in your Uggs, I don't know, I think about it a lot. As you can tell. There's a whole other part of this book, though. And you know, I sort of want to talk to your marketing team, because this book is so marketed heavily about the influencing part. But I also found this to be equally, if not more, so a book about grief. What do you think? How do you sort of think of the book in your mind? Do you think of those two pieces as equal? Did you feel like you were writing a book about grief, about a book about influencer culture? But I don't know. I'm just curious, because I feel like it was really pitched as, like, influencer book. And then I was like, oh, sad girl who's friend died.

Jade Chang 16:25

yeah, yeah. I, you know, I think those two pieces are so intertwined, you know, I feel like she could not have started to do what she does, if not for the grief, you know. And I think that, I think with this book, I really, I really, really wanted every kind of story turn to feel so emotionally earned, you know. And I feel like part of what makes it believable to me as the author, and I hope to readers, that this girl would be like, All right, guys, listen to me like, here I am going through it when she hadn't really had those aspirations previously. Is because I think, you know, we've all experienced this, right? Like grief, as much as it flattens you, it can also just tear you open. And I think when that happens, one you do, you feel like you're interacting with the world in a different way, right? And then I think you are also you do have the sense that, like, life is short. You don't know what's going to happen. Let me try, like, I guess I will do this. And of course, it doesn't affect everyone in the same way, but I think that kind of effect is familiar to all of us, you know, right?

Traci Thomas 17:58

Also what I what I think that you do that's really interesting and different and pleasurable to read is that you talk about grief like the pleasure in grief. There's a line where it says, We never talk about how there's a corner of grief that feels like pleasure, to feel so much emotion, to know it's shared with other people, you're bound to to experience something so overwhelming that there's no room in your body for a single other thing to exist wholly in an unfamiliar state. It's a kind of love, and I love that because I do feel like what you're saying like grief opens you up, and sort of maybe like, gives you like a bravado or an urgency, but also that like feeling grief or like in the especially in the early stages of that. That's on page 18. So I think we're still in January, like, because the book is broken down by months, like, the early stages of grief, when you sort of are, like, feeling filled up by all of it. I just feel like people don't talk about that. So I'm curious, like, what, where that came from for you?

Jade Chang 19:00

I think I really tried to take this thing and look at it from every possible angle, you know, and just in terms of, like, my own experiences, and then friends who I have been through things with, you know. And really, I think, kind of trying to think about, like, how does that time set itself apart from other times in our lives? And, yeah, and that was one of the things, is that I think that we really seek emotion, you know, I think we, I mean, that's why we like, like, these big tear jerker movies and these giant epics and these, these kind of, you know, thrilling books, right? We want to be filled with emotion, and that is especially in those moments where you have a shared grief. Well pleasure is an inadequate word for it, right? And it almost feels a little bit like a rude word for it, but sure, I couldn't think of another word, and it still felt the most perfect to me, and the little shock of it kind of worked for me.

Traci Thomas 20:19

Yeah, yeah, I think that it, I mean, it resonated with me. So I think it is the right word, or maybe, like, satisfaction. I don't know. That's not quite right, though. I think pleasure, pleasure feels right to me

Jade Chang 20:32

Well because pleasure is sensual, you know, I think there is something about that, like, it is such a full body experience, it is such a thing that, like, takes over your senses

Traci Thomas 20:45

Yeah, and it's not analytical, like satisfaction is like, yes, like, more cerebral or something. No, I, I'm with you. Okay, this is what I want to know about. So I know that you I know we can talk about this when we get to how you wrote the book, but I know that you were part of a writing group in LA with a superstar array of people publishing books like Aja Gabel, Angela Flournoy, you and I know that you guys, like, you know, whatever, wrote together, and we'll talk about that later. But when I talked to Angela, I did Angela's live event in LA and she we talked a lot about writing, Oh, you were there, of course. She talked about writing in one of her characters voices who is also sort of an online influencer person. And she was talking about sort of balancing her own intellect and maybe disdain for online writing. Yeah, I remember that, yes, yes, with her sort of desire to make this character's writing feel authentic to her readers. And so I want to ask you about that, because this book is all Lola's voice and Angela's book, she's got multiple perspectives, so she kind of gets to go in and out of this. The character's Monique. but for you, you chose to lock in on this person who, throughout the book, we read her writing, we get to hear what she says like there's videos that you, sort of, you know, tell us what said in the video. So how were you as a writer, tapping into that voice. Did you like it? Did you hate it? I'm just curious, because I do think those kinds of writing are different, and there's judgment that comes with the online writing.

Jade Chang 22:30

I don't feel that judgmental of online writing

Traci Thomas 22:31

Really? I do it and I hate my writing.

Jade Chang 22:36

Really?

Traci Thomas 22:39

Oh, my God, yes, I hate it.

Jade Chang 22:44

I don't know. I think, I think there is good and bad, just as there is in like, I don't think that all literary writing is fantastic, you know,

Traci Thomas 22:51

Obviously I think a lot of it's really bad.

Jade Chang 22:54

I think there's a there's a huge range. And I think that the the great part about like, what we're calling online writing is the immediacy, right? The like, I'm thinking about this right now. This is also happening in the world, so you're probably thinking about it too. This is how I'm processing my feelings. I think I like that. You know, there's something about that that I respond to. With this, it's interesting. There's kind of, like, two layers to this, right? Because it's, it was so it's written in first person, which I have never done before

Traci Thomas 23:28

Did you like it?

Jade Chang 23:29

It was hard. I thought it was so hard.

Traci Thomas 23:33

Do you like to read first person books?

Jade Chang 23:37

Not always. I like it when I love the voice. And then sometimes I'm like, Well, I hate you, I can't, you know, and I can't continue, but, yeah, so I found that really hard. But I also, with every new project, I need like different levels of challenge, right? So I need, like that kind of craft challenge also to, just to keep me engaged. And yeah, so I had to find that voice, which I think I went through a few different kind of like, oh, this is like trying to be too clever, or this feels too cute, or like too many words, like, yeah, you know, different versions of things, kind of trying to get at that thing that felt real. And then, yeah, then when I started writing, like, some of her posts, I was like, All right, how am I going to handle this? And I did try to channel, I think I let a little bit of that, like cleverness come in more to the parts where Lola was writing, right? Like when she was writing a post, just like a more self conscious turn of phrase, like that kind of a thing. Because I think that she would in those moments be like being her full self, but also like wanting people to know she's smart, you know, right?

Traci Thomas 25:00

Right, right, yeah. Like, the performance of it, yeah, because I feel like it's so, you know, again, I'm always put, I'm always putting all of this through my own lens, right? Like, how could you write when I read any book? I'm always, like, right, sifting it through my own lens. But this book, I feel like, has the added layer of, like, this is sort of about what I do in some ways. Do you know what I mean? Like, not exactly. And I'm so obsessed with audience. I think about audience all the time. Like, when I'm reading something, when I'm writing something, when I'm thinking about the podcast, I'm always thinking about, like, who's the audience? What are we trying to do to them? Whatever. And so as I was reading your book, I'm thinking about like, you Jade, and then I'm thinking about Lola, and then I'm thinking about Lola's performance to her audience, right? And like that, you Jade, have an audience that's probably very different than Lola's audience at first, like, on some places, but there's also, like this overlap. So are you thinking about audience. I mean, maybe not as much as I am, because all I do is think about audience in some ways. Are you thinking about that? Like, does this work for who I Jade am writing for, and does this work for who Lola is writing for, even if we're thinking about different people?

Jade Chang 26:19

That is a really interesting question. I love it. I kind of a weird answer, which is that, so when The Wangs vs The World came out, I went on tour for that book for a long time, like, truly, almost a year, which sounds nuts, like thinking back on it, but yeah, I just did you know event after event for so long? And what that really taught me is you do not know who your audience is. Like, yeah, the range of people, it was thrilling, actually, like, there was such a surprising, you know, I think that you write a book that is about an Asian family and a road trip, and it's a it's sold as literary fiction, and you expect, like, you know, some pretty clear demographics for that, right? But in fact, no, I mean, of course, yes, there is just like, a book lover demographic, right? And they were there and that I was very grateful. But there was also, I always remember this, which is very strange. I got just, you know, through my website, people would sometimes write and be like, Hey, I read your book. I really liked it. Three separate emails from white men who worked at logging companies, one of them owned a logging company. I didn't even know there were that many logging companies by the way

Traci Thomas 27:51

I couldn't name a single logging company

Jade Chang 27:52

Yeah, logging slash lumber companies. I Sorry. I guess this is revealing myself as someone who will sometimes Google who you are if you if you message me

Traci Thomas 28:02

Anyone who's not admitting to that, you're nuts. You're not good. I'm googling everything,

Jade Chang 28:08

yeah, but I think one or two of those people did have their, you know, the company in their signature, and then I just looked up what the company was, but, but, yeah, I wouldn't have expected, none of us expected that. You know?

Traci Thomas 28:21

You're big with the logging community.

Jade Chang 28:23

Who knew? But I do think that I just really realized, like, you don't know who your audience is, and also that is so freeing and exciting. And of course, there will always be, you know, the core of book lovers that I'm so thrilled to be in conversation with, and also Asian American readers that I am so thrilled to be in conversation with. But then also we are all just humans among humans, and I do think that my understanding of that has changed so much as I've gotten older, you know. And I think that, yeah, and I think if I had written this book, you know, 20 plus years ago, when I was first trying to write it, yeah, I would have written it to an extremely specific audience, like me, basically, you know, yeah, you would have been in that audience. You know, it would have been like us, yeah,

Traci Thomas 29:24

Just you and me. Audience of two.

Jade Chang 29:27

Exactly. But now I just feel like, when you're writing a book, a book, you're asking someone for so much time and attention and care that I want to give that back to the reader. And so when I am thinking about my audience, I'm not thinking about kind of like, are you going to understand this? How are you going to react to this? I am thinking about like, am I earning your emotional reactions? And like, how. Kind of, I guess, both, like, seriously and generously, can I take something.

Traci Thomas 30:07

yeah, yeah, there's a version of this book that is like satire, and then there's the version that you wrote that is, like, very it's like, big hearted. It's definitely like a heart, a heart book. And I think, I think that's interesting to think about. Like that you could take this story. I mean, there's also probably, like, a horror version of this book.

Jade Chang 30:31

Also appealing,

Traci Thomas 30:32

Right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, yes. There's, like, you know, different ways that these, this kind of story could go. But I think certainly the way that like, what, what I read, is like, feels very like, I don't know it's not earnest, per se, but it is like hearty, heart ish, if you will.

Jade Chang 30:56

Yeah, no, I think that's true, and I appreciate the fact that you read it that way. Because I do think that I've definitely gotten a couple of responses where they're like, this is straight satire. I'm like, you're missing a little bit.

Traci Thomas 31:10

Yeah, I did. I'm always looking for satire. I love satire, but I didn't get that from this book. I actually think I went in thinking it would be, I think, like, given the marketing copy and like, sort of like the colors on the cover, like, I sort of thought it was gonna be a, like, more punchy book, you know, like, to me, it's packaged that way, and I think it's slightly more like, like I said, it's more about grief than I thought. It's more about sort of, like, this turmoil that she has than it is about, like, influencing. I mean, obviously that's a part of it, but it's not about that. And I think like, the satire version of this book would be like, about, like, you have a section on page 110 in my copy that's, like, about the economics of influencing. And I think in like, the satire version of this book, that would have been 15 pages throughout, you know what I mean, like, it's just like, it would be more about the industry, in my mind, yeah,

Jade Chang 32:06

you know, I think it's really interesting. I think that is kind of really, kind of depends on what the reader brings to it, because I think you know so much about the behind the scenes of it, yeah, that it would have required like, several more steps for you to be like, Oh, and this, and this and this, right? Whereas, I think for someone who is coming at it, I mean, speaking of audience, right, for someone who's coming at it, like not having kind of dabbled, yeah, I feel like, Lola kind of going through those steps of, like, figuring out the taxonomy of internet influencers and trying to understand it. You know, I think that probably looms as like a larger piece for someone who comes from the outside. And I think definitely the parts that are about that are about Ted, that are like a thinly veiled version of Oprah Super Soul Sunday, yeah, Esalen, like those parts definitely. I let the satire side of it, like, open up a little

Traci Thomas 33:14

more. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely like commentary

Jade Chang 33:20

for sure.

Traci Thomas 33:20

Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. We're back from our break, our fake our fake break. It's always just so annoying to do it in person, but I have to say it so that the ad can play, because you got to have that economics of influencing.

Jade Chang 33:38

Yes, exactly.

Traci Thomas 33:40

Okay. I have to know, how did you name your characters? Lola Treasure Gold is such an insanely good name. I went to your event in LA, before the book came out. And, oh yeah, I think all you said was, like, this is a book about Lola. And I was like, Sign me up. No clue what this book is about. You're one sentence in, but I'm locked in. So where did you come up with her name? And every actually, everyone's names are pretty fantastic.

Jade Chang 34:11

Thank you. I think I am just at heart, a real maximalist, and I like a name that packs a punch, you know, yeah, yeah. And with Lola, I mean, this is kind of revealed in a scene in the book, but her mom is, like, ready to, I wanted a name that would be like a fight between two cultures a little bit, you know. And her mom is ready to just give her a Chinese name that's like, transliterated essentially into English. But there is another influential caretaker in her life who who convinces her mom to name her Lola, and then is like, Americans have middle names, and her mom was like. Like, that's dumb, all right, well, I guess. And treasure is a very common nickname in Chinese. It's like, Honey, essentially in English. So that's where the treasure comes from. And then the gold is her actual Chinese last name, and then for various rea sons that become clear in the book, she changes it to the English. So, yeah, it seemed like a nice like, bam, bam, bam.

Traci Thomas 35:32

Yeah, it's a really good name. In the structure we, like you said before, it takes place over one year, and we get like, each chapter is a month, so January, February, March, you you all understand what I'm saying. How did you come to that? Why did you want to keep it to a year? Was it always that way? Or did did that find you later?

Jade Chang 35:54

It was not always that way. I think I I needed two things to really start writing this book. It was figuring out Lola's voice, and then figuring out this structure. And I think, I think what I've kind of discovered about myself is that I need a superstructure, right? So the Wang's was a road trip. So I knew they were going to go to various cities. I knew what city seemed fun to go to. You know? I knew where I wanted them to end up. So then I had kind of a structure that I could then slot in the like, emotional ups and downs and the plot arcs within and kind of the same thing with a year, right? I knew I mean dumb things like, oh, they can go to a halloween party, you know, there are things like that. But then also just we react emotionally to like, different parts of the year. And it also gave me a real sense of like, okay, we are measuring like, when you go through something really big, like having someone so close to you die a lot of times that messes up your sense of time, you know. And I wanted to think about that and kind of how, you know, depending on how far out she was from that moment, how she was responding to things, yeah. So coming up with that year structure, really, I'd say it was instrumental in getting me to

Traci Thomas 37:23

I love it. I love when a book has a clear like, especially time structure, like when it takes place in a day or a week or a weekend or a year. I just let just like you there. Like, when a book is like, over many undetermined days or years, I'm just like, where am I? What's going on? I even prefer it when a book jumps around in time, where it's like, 2018, 2003 like that. I also prefer to just general time passing. I just like to have something to anchor myself. I'm also, like, a rule follower.

Jade Chang 38:09

Oh you really live by your calendar?

Traci Thomas 38:11

Oh, yeah, I love a calendar. I also remember days, like, I can tell you whoever's birthday it is, like, if you tell me your birthday once, I'll remember it for most people. Like I just, I think in time. are you like that at all? Are you a time person? No, so this is really just like a writing thing for you.

Jade Chang 38:29

No, I am a time person, but I wouldn't say I'm a calendar person like, I think I find our varying experiences of time really fascinating, okay? And I find the way that, like time passes fast and slow so interesting, you know, but I hate to be bound to, you know

Traci Thomas 38:49

Yeah, all right, what's your what's your astrological sign?

Jade Chang 38:54

I'm a Scorpio.

Traci Thomas 38:55

Okay, I was curious. Lola is a Capricorn or Sagittarius. Her birthday is in December, so it was unclear to me, like it just happens in December, but I wasn't sure

Jade Chang 39:06

She's a Sagittarius.

Traci Thomas 39:07

Okay, she's early December, Or, I guess most of December

Jade Chang 39:12

Most of December is Sagittarius, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 39:15

My kids are Capricorns, and my dad was a Capricorn, both December. So I think of it as a December birthday, even though it's really, I guess mostly January. okay, okay. I just was, I was curious. I love when I it's like, such, like a nerdy book thing. But I just love when we find out a character's sign, like, when a birthday is specific. I think it's fun. It's like, like, like, I think, I think Juliet in Romeo and Juliet is like, she's like, a Leo, I think, or maybe she's a cancer, but I'm always, I don't know. I just like it. I just like to know.

Jade Chang 39:48

Well, I have to admit, something very narcissistic, but Scorpio-like, which is I only know about my own zodiac sign.

Traci Thomas 39:58

I'm a Leo. I pretty much only know about my own sign as well. But I always like it when a birthday comes up, because I yeah, like, because people think about it, some, like, some authors will be, like, I wanted them to be a Libra.

Jade Chang 40:10

I 100% thought about it in the sense that, like, I knew that other people would notice it. I didn't want her to to have like, a like, like, I didn't want to make her a Gemini and have people like, read so much into that Gemini designation, for example

Traci Thomas 40:33

I see okay. I want to make sure we have time to get to your process, because I have heard about it, but I assume a lot of people have not heard about your writer's group. So I would love to talk about the Pomodoro posse.

Jade Chang 40:48

Yeah, oh my god, you remember the term. I mean, I guess it's not a, not an uncommon term.

Traci Thomas 40:53

I remember Pomodoro. I think, I think I sort of embellished it with posse. I don't think it's called that

Jade Chang 40:58

We don't call ourselves a posse, but I guess, yeah, really, I would say this group grew out of my own desperation to get anything done. I am not a great worker, like I have a really hard time working at home. I, you know, some people need, like, quiet and a desk of their own. No, give me noise in somebody else's desk like that, is my preference. So I asked, you know, several friends who all kind of happened to be I knew that they were all working on books, and it was also this, we started it during the pandemic. So there was one, there were two places on hillhurst Avenue in Los Angeles that had outdoor patios where, you know, even in kind of the darkest days of the pandemic, you could sit outside and work. And so it was me, Aja Gable, as you mentioned, who has the novel Lightbreakers coming out in November, very soon.

Traci Thomas 40:58

She did the pod. You Aja and Angela now have all done the podcast.

Jade Chang 40:58

Oh, what an honor.

Traci Thomas 40:58

Yeah, I gotta collect all of the Pomodoro posse, you know.

Jade Chang 41:24

Because then it's gonna be Jean Chen Ho, who wrote Fiona and Jane and Xuan Juliana Wang who wrote Home Remedies, both beautiful short story collections, and both of them are working on their first novels, which hopefully will be out in a year or two. And yeah, and I think kind of like the loneliness of the pandemic. Got them all to say yes to me, so we would gather. And then, of course, Angela Flournoy, but Angela actually moved to LA during the pandemic, so she we had already kind of started, and then she joined in, which was great. And then we had other friends who like come in and out as well. For example, our friend Emma joins occasionally, and she was the one who instituted a an agenda where, where during the the Pomodoro times, which are 45 minutes apiece, where we're working, if we have any thing pressing to say if we think of any like funny comments or little bits of gossip or questions, Emma makes us write it down on the agenda, and then we're allowed to reference it during our talking breaks.

Traci Thomas 43:32

And the talking breaks are five minutes?

Jade Chang 43:32

Yeah, but they're longer.

Traci Thomas 43:32

I do Pomodoro for myself when I'm really having a hard time working. But I do 25 and five, I do traditional Pomodoro, yeah, but that's hard. It's sometimes too short.

Jade Chang 43:45

It's too short. And then I think also when it's so many people, I mean, it's not always all of us every time, but when it's multiple people, five minute break, you want to have, like, a little bit of a conversation, yeah? Then if your break is 10 minutes, your work time has to be longer. You know, 45/10 is a really good rhythm.

Traci Thomas 44:05

Maybe I'll try that. I'm open to change. I mean, like I said, I love the clock, yeah? But I feel like, yeah, just change it. So you all would work. But what I love, what I've heard both you and Angela say, is that you guys, none of you really talked about your work. So you would go and work on your books. But, like, none of you really knew what you were writing about

Jade Chang 44:29

Yes, like the basics. And we would occasionally talk to each other about, not like, oh, this character is doing this. What do I do? But more like, Wait a minute. Like, if a guy's coming up to you in a club, like, what? What did he say? You know, things like that.

Traci Thomas 44:50

So then when you get to read each other's books, are you like ooh that's from, we talked about this.

Jade Chang 44:55

That scene is actually from it's a club scene in The Wilderness. I remember talking to Angela a lot about clubs in general, but not really knowing what was happening in that scene.

Traci Thomas 45:06

Such a good scene.

Jade Chang 45:07

Such a good scene. So fun to read it and be like, Oh, I That's right, okay, I'm glad you put that in. It was really fun.

Traci Thomas 45:18

So I love this because I, you know, I always ask people how they write, and most of the time it's like in my office in a coffee shop, but it's never like in a group or in community with other people who write. Now, are you still doing the Pomodoro group?

Jade Chang 45:36

Not recently, because I've been on book tour.

Traci Thomas 45:39

Sure, but like, like, once you finished this book, did you go back to start other things?

Jade Chang 45:45

Yeah

Could ever write again without it? Like, can you write without the group now?

No, I wrote The Wangs with a friend, also my friend Margaret Wappler, who wrote Neon Green. She and I wrote so much of those books together, and then she moved too far away. So, you know, very rude. Wasn't thinking about my career at all when she made that decision.

Traci Thomas 46:09

Like, so selfish. Like, get a life that revolves around me, duh.

Jade Chang 46:13

Come on. But um, yeah, no I can't. I need, like, the, you know, the camaraderie, the distraction, yeah, I need all of that in order to write.

Traci Thomas 46:30

And you know, you're not gonna get away without answering this. Do you have reading or writing, snacks and beverages?

Jade Chang 46:36

Oh, I mean everything. When I'm in real, like, I have to finish this book mode, my deal with myself is always I can eat and drink whatever I want, okay, like, price, no object, calories, no object, just it's fine.

Traci Thomas 46:56

So what's your go to? Like, like, what is like, if price, no object, calories, no object. What do you want? What are the kinds of things you're eating and drinking?

Jade Chang 47:07

My favorite is, sorry to endorse substances on this program, but my favorite is a slow beer. I love to have, like, truly, a beer that takes, like, an hour and a half to two hours to drink, you know, they just feel like it just gives you that little kind of, like, like, click of remove where, like, obviously, this beer has not affected me, actually, in any way, you know, but just like the feeling of having a

Traci Thomas 47:43

Sense memory

Jade Chang 47:44

Yeah, yeah, all of it is just a really nice way to, like, hook me into, you know, a form of writing.

Traci Thomas 47:54

yeah, what about, what about a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Jade Chang 48:00

Oh, God, you know what it is. It's almost too on the nose. Embarrass, no.

Traci Thomas 48:07

Embarrass is so hard. I can't smell embarrassed.

Jade Chang 48:11

Like, how many R's, how many S's, I don't know. I should just, like, have a mnemonic for it or something. I could spell mnemonic. I can't. I can't spell? Yeah, I can't. I'm panicking right now because I feel like you're gonna ask me to spell it

Traci Thomas 48:26

I'm a terrible speller, so I don't ever spell shame. Like, I just want people on the record that they can't spell things. Oh, I think most people who come on the show are, like, very impressive humans. And I just want to remind everyone you can spell, except for, like, a few people who are like, actually, I was the spelling bee champion, and then usually try to cut the interview short. I'm like, Okay, well, that's all my questions. Sorry, you're fucking genius whatever. In your book, so there's a question that I ask people only when I do live events that I stole from an audience member at a live event, and it is, if you were a punctuation mark, what punctuation mark would you be? But in the book that comes up, and I was okay, so now I need to know what punctuation mark you would be. Or you are.

Jade Chang 49:16

What punctuation mark would I be? It just changes so much all the time. I do kind of think of myself as ellipses.

Traci Thomas 49:31

Okay, every writer says these, these elongating punctuations. Ellipses, semicolon, comma. Squeeze it in.

Jade Chang 49:41

Also, I love to use ellipses. I always have to, like, cut them out because I use way too many of them. I mean, my most overused punctuation mark is obviously an exclamation point. You know, throwing them in at all times

Traci Thomas 49:57

yeah, I love an exclamation point. Those. Sometimes, I guess I'm a question mark. I like to ask questions. I'm very nosy, but I think even my questions often have an exclamation point right there

Jade Chang 50:08

Like an exclamatory kind of feeling, yeah, yeah

Traci Thomas 50:11

Like yelling questions

Jade Chang 50:13

Whereas I feel like even my exclamation points have a little like, but hold on. Dot, dot, dot. You know

Traci Thomas 50:19

But wait, there's more, exclamation point

Jade Chang 50:21

yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, actually, dot, dot, dot exclamation point that is probably my most

Traci Thomas 50:30

That's you, that's you. I guess I have to ask you this, who are your favorite influencers?

Jade Chang 50:39

Oh, I am so sorry. I know it sounds like I'm trying to get out of something, but I don't have any

Traci Thomas 50:45

You don't have any you don't have any follows where you're just like this person. I just can't stop watching them. I have some, like, hate, influencers follows

Jade Chang 50:52

Yeah, for sure. No, I feel like I just got way too analytical with all of it, and like, examined people too much. I also have a I think this happens when you've ever worked as a journalist, especially in back in the day, when there wasn't just, like automatic transcribing, where, when I'm working on something, I have, like, picture perfect memory for it, and then when I'm done, pew, it is gone from my brain.

Traci Thomas 51:15

Yeah got it. Got it. Okay, for people who love What a Time to Be Alive, what are some other books you'd recommend to them that are in conversation with what you've done?

Jade Chang 51:32

Oh, I have the weirdest book is springing to mind. It's not like a current book. So when I was a kid, I found a copy of the stumble over, saying it in English and Chinese. It's the Tao Te Ching. So I read it when I was a kid, and I was like, I understand every word of this. I see the world clearly now. All right, yes, in fact, I could teach this religion. And then a couple years after that, when I was maybe, like 15 or 16, I read it again. I was like, what? Like, I don't understand. I feel like if this book came out of any book, it is that. And then I've been reading recently Ken Liu, the science fiction writer and or is he more of a fantasy?

Traci Thomas 52:35

SciFi fantasy is not something that I know anything about

Jade Chang 52:37

So he's amazing. He really is. But he and Ursula Le Guin have both written books about the Tao. And then, of course, there is the classic, The Tao Pooh I have been reading, but I don't know that they're in conversation with my book but I feel in conversation with them

Traci Thomas 52:58

If you feel like it's in conversation, it's in conversation. Speaking of that book, actually, I reread A Million Little Pieces this year, and it's a huge part of James Frey's. Yeah, I didn't remember that, but it comes up in the book all the time. Someone gives it to him, his brother, like wild reread. Anyway, I know it's a lie, but I it's, it's really, it's grippy, it's crappy, it's yeah. Anyway

Jade Chang 53:34

You know one other book that is, you know, the book Margo's Got Money Troubles. Which I love. And I'm friends with Rufi and I, they're not similar at all. But I will say that one that I read Margo and I the whole time on a little like sticky note I was I kept writing down, like, oh, this thing, this thing, this thing. Like, we we address so many of the same kind of like concerns in the world, you know?

Traci Thomas 54:01

Yes, that's totally in conversation.

Jade Chang 54:02

Yeah, yeah. And I sent it to her

Traci Thomas 54:05

I ask the question that way, because I don't want people to think, like, oh, the same topics. Like, it's just like, right, a book that's like, vibing out in the same way, you know?

Jade Chang 54:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just feel like you gave us both, like, the same deck of cards, and we're like, I'm gonna do that. Wouldn't do that, you know?

Traci Thomas 54:19

Yeah, yeah. Actually love that's a great comparison. Okay, last one, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Jade Chang 54:29

Hmm, you know, it's funny. So I've listened to some of your podcasts. I've listened to several, people all seem to want Toni Morrison to read their books.

Traci Thomas 54:39

That's true. People want that. If I were a writer, I would be like, the last person I want is Toni Morrison, because she would judge me and think I suck.

Jade Chang 54:46

It's true. I do feel like Toni Morrison is a discerning reader,

Traci Thomas 54:50

Yeah. Like she's not gonna be like, Great job, Traci. She's gonna be like, you need some edits.

Jade Chang 54:55

Okay, yes. But although that would be that would also be an honor. Um, yeah, I but, but in keeping with that, I guess my answer would be Maxine Hong Kingston, who was the first Asian American author that I read when I was younger, who wrote a book that I felt like blown away by

What's the book?

Woman Warrior. It's so good. It's experimental and kind of overwhelming and exciting and weird and interesting, and then also historical. Yeah, it's fantastic.

Traci Thomas 55:33

Amazing. Well, everybody you can get your copy of What a Time to Be Alive wherever you get your books. It is out in the world. I read the whole thing on the page. I didn't listen to the audiobook at all, so I can't speak to it, but I'm sure it's great, because I'm sure it's super voicey and like I'm sure it'll be fun to read out loud. Have you listened to any of it?

Jade Chang 55:54

Weirdly, I find it deeply embarrassing to listen to my own audiobook just a little bit, but the narrator is fantastic, and I've been hearing very good reviews of it.

Traci Thomas 56:04

okay, I might, I might wait. I might put a hold on the library, just to get or, like, listen to a little snippet of it.

Jade Chang 56:09

Let me know. I'll pass along your review as mine.

Traci Thomas 56:13

Okay. Well, Jade, thank you so much for being here. This was a blast.

Jade Chang 56:18

Thank you. So fun to talk to you. Thanks, Traci.

Traci Thomas 56:21

And everyone else, we will see you in The Stacks.

Thank you all so much for listening, and thank you again to Jade for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Sonia Cheuse for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, which we will be reading on Wednesday, October 29 with Angela Flournoy. If you love The Stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you subscribe to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from The Stacks. You can follow us on social media @thestackspod, on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, as well as our brand new YouTube channel, and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com Today's episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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