Ep. 434 Traci Turns 40 with Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin, and Kiese Laymon

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re celebrating Traci’s 40th birthday! That’s right, it’s her actual birthday today, and she’s invited her friends—media personality and Higher Learning co-host Rachel Lindsay, award-winning journalist and podcast host Sam Sanders, actress, podcaster, and author Becca Tobin, and bestselling author Kiese Laymon—to put her in the hot seat and ask all their burning questions. They interview her about everything from her biggest regrets to her goals for the next decade and all her feelings about turning forty.

Our book club pick for July is Behind the Beautiful Forevers by Katherine Boo. We will be discussing the book with Julianna Haubner on Wednesday, July 29th.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and today we are doing something a little bit different. Today is Wednesday, july 22 2026 which also just happens to be my 40th birthday, and because it is my birthday and my show, and I'm a Leo, I'm doing something that I've always wanted to do. I have invited four of my very good friends on the podcast today. They are each going to interview me for a little bit of time and show you a different side of me and The Stacks and getting older, and food, and community, and sports, and all the things that I love the most. So please welcome to the podcast my amazing guests, Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin, and Kiyase Layman. Our book club pick for July is Behind the Beautiful Forevers: Life, Death, and Hope in a Mumbai Undercity by Katherine Boo. We will be discussing the book with Juliana Hopner on Wednesday, july 29 Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. If you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, if you want fun perks like bonus episodes and reading challenges and hot takes, consider joining the Stacks pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter Unstacked on Substack, and because today is my birthday, I'm going to be a little more honest and sincere. There is no way I could make this show without the support of people on Patreon and Substack. I would not have the time. I would not have the energy. I would not have the freedom to come up with new ideas and try new things out like this very episode. I also would not be able to pay the amazing people that make the show sound good and run smoothly every single week, like my editor Christian, my assistant Sahara, and my jack of all trades Cherie. So, if you like the show, if you support it, if you want to give me a birthday present today, head to Patreon.com/thestax to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas. Substack. Com, thank you so much for being here. All right, now it is time for my 40th birthday party, which you are all invited to. I'm kicking things off with my dear friend Rachel Lindsay, who has been a guest on this very podcast. She was the first Black Bachelorette. She now hosts an incredible podcast called Higher Learning with Van Lathan. She also is the host of the Morally Corrupt podcast, both on the Ringer Network. She is a two-time author, and as you'll hear, an absolutely wonderful person.

Rachel Lindsay 2:35

Oh my gosh! This is so exciting! Wait, I have to tell you, one of my favorite things to do is I am so used to being interviewed, but when I get to interview one of my friends, it's like it's an exciting moment. But then it's also I don't know, like I'm nervous because at the same time, at the same time, I'm like I know you so well. I feel like so I'm like I don't want to say something on whatever. That's why recording is great. Okay, let's get into it.

Traci Thomas 3:05

Yes, we'll edit.

Rachel Lindsay 3:06

We'll get into it. I'm so happy for you turning 40. And before we dive in, I just have to give because I feel like when we were younger, it was like 40. It's over the hill. It's over the hill. I can remember going to my uncle's birthday. The first person in my life to turn 40 close to me, and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, he's so old. And now that we're here, I am fully embracing 40. I thought I would be so scared for it, and I think it is every decade. I'm going to say this, but I think it's one of the most exciting decades, and you're going to feel that way too. And when I thought I would be kind of like timid to tell people, well, I'm turning 40. Now I'm like, I'm 40. I don't feel it. I don't look it, and it's the same thing about you. So we're diving right in.

Traci Thomas 3:55

I feel good about 40. I actually don't feel bad about 40. I just feel like I could be dead, you know. Like that's the alternative.

Rachel Lindsay 4:04

It's a little morbid that for you to for you say it like it, but it is so. But it's so true. It's so true at the same time. Yeah, like

Traci Thomas 4:11

it's like, and also like you put in all these years of life, and you just make mistakes and you just fuck up for years and years. And I feel like every year you get older, you're just like doing it slightly better. Like, sure, you'll still fuck up and stuff, but I'm like, I got 40 years under the belt.

Rachel Lindsay 4:28

No, no, no. You're right.

Traci Thomas 4:30

Like I felt so uncertain at like 25

Rachel Lindsay 4:32

I feel like I blame everything on the patriarchy these days, right? Because why not?

Traci Thomas 4:36

Yes 1000

Rachel Lindsay 4:37

I feel like we were raised to look at age in a different way. I feel like we were raised to, in some ways, lie about our age because younger is better, and I or or we would lie to be older, and then as we got older, we would lie to be younger, rather than just like being present and embracing and being grateful that you're here in this space now, and I don't know about you, so this is, I guess, first question. What do you do on birthdays? Like, how do you, how do you go into a birthday?

Traci Thomas 5:08

Well, I love birthdays, so I am not an anti-birthday person. I actually get annoyed when people are like, "I don't do anything for my birthday. I'm like, "This is your day."

Rachel Lindsay 5:19

These are not our people.

Traci Thomas 5:20

I do other things. I know, but some of my very good friends are not birthday people. It's very weird. But you and I both love a birthday, so I always gather in some way for my birthday. I don't think I've ever not had a something, but I don't. I know you do like a like kind of like New Year's resolution reset goal setting type thing. I don't do that. I just like want to have a fun time. I accept every invitation for a lunch or a drink. You know, like someone can't come to my party, but let me take you out. I'm like, yes, please do. I will usually. I don't work. I will take the day off.

Rachel Lindsay 5:57

Good for you.

Traci Thomas 5:58

Yeah, I've been doing that for a long time, and I might still do work, but I won't have like any record. Like I won't have work where I'm needed with others. Like I'll block my calendar off. I usually exercise on my birthday in some way. Last year we went and got high tea on my birthday.

Rachel Lindsay 6:16

Yes, that was really fun.

Traci Thomas 6:17

This year I had a party when people are listening to this a few days ago with all my friends. Inspired by Rachel, we had a party bus.

Rachel Lindsay 6:25

It's the way to do it.

Traci Thomas 6:28

And then we watched the World Cup final the next day. Which we, as we're recording, we don't know who's in it. We don't know what happens, but it was probably a great match, and we had a great time. And hopefully, it went to penalty kicks. And then on my actual birthday, I'll have dinner with my family.

Rachel Lindsay 6:43

Beautiful. So you love to be celebrated, and this is why I say I know technically you're a Cancer, but you're

Traci Thomas 6:50

no technically I'm a Leo.

Rachel Lindsay 6:51

I thought Leo starts on the 23rd

Traci Thomas 6:54

I know, but I was born so late at night on the 22nd on the west coast that the sun had officially moved into Leo

Rachel Lindsay 7:01

And that proves my point. You have such Leo energy that I'm like. I was going to say technically I know you are, but you really give Leo, which fits into the whole thing of being celebrated as you should. How did you imagine you would feel at 40 when you were younger? And are you?

Traci Thomas 7:18

I felt better. I thought it was old.

Rachel Lindsay 7:19

Well, are you?

Traci Thomas 7:20

I thought 40 was old, and now I think 40 is great. The thing I didn't realize. Okay, so I am the youngest person in my life. Weirdly, besides my children, but like almost all of my friends, I'm the youngest cousin. I'm the youngest child. All of my friends are older than me, even if it's just a few days. Like my sister in law and very dear friend Sarah is exactly one month older than me, but almost all of my friends are older than me, so I still feel young because I'm younger than everyone else. And I know that's silly, but like I do feel like the baby, even though it's just like a few weeks for some people. But like my best friend Claire is like she's February, so everyone's turning 40 this year, but almost all of my friends already turned 40. All my friends are older than me.

Rachel Lindsay 8:05

I am older.

Traci Thomas 8:06

You're a little older. Yeah, everyone's like 1985 or early 1986

Rachel Lindsay 8:11

But I think that you said something that's so important. You don't like when people don't want to celebrate their birthday. I don't like when people are constantly talking about how old they are.

Traci Thomas 8:21

Like you know it's the same as like when people talk about their weight. I'm like okay, just eat the fucking cookie. Shut up! Like oh I can't have this today. I'm like just it's one cookie. If this cookie is the difference between you liking your body and you thinking that you're like a disgusting human, that's a that's really not the cookie. That's really a you thing, and that's how I feel about age.

Rachel Lindsay 8:41

And I just believe words are so powerful. And I just feel like if you're constantly telling yourself how old you are or calling yourself auntie or unk, you know I rebuke those phrases. I mean, I'm an aunt in real life, but I just I'm not saying you have to act like a 21 year old, but how you feel is a real thing. When I wake up in the morning, I choose my words, I choose my feelings, and I choose to feel young. And so, I don't think that that's a silly, silly thing that you're the youngest and that's how you feel, or you truly you're 40 by technically, but you feel younger. I think that that's how we should be. We got to change the whole perspective.

Traci Thomas 9:19

I'm also like, I also feel like I am like stronger and faster, and like I'm in better shape than I've been in a really long time. Though not the best shape of my life because I taught spin for a long time, so I was like really cardiovascularly strong. Now I'm more like I can like lift heavier things than I've ever lifted, and like not that that is necessarily like a marker of health, but it is like I am still getting stronger and like still getting faster, which I don't think I ever would have thought was how it would be at four. Yeah, like I sort of thought I'd already peaked physically, and like maybe if I was training back then, like how I'm training now, I would have been even faster than I am now. But that's not how it worked, and I am the fastest I've ever been, and I'm like, oh. This is so like refreshing.

Rachel Lindsay 10:02

I think that strength, to your point, is also mind over matter, and a lot of like what we do, whether it's running, whether it's strength training, whether it's like just endurance, getting through a project or the day or whatever it is. The older I get, the the I feel like my mind is stronger, and I think that's the beauty of it, and I'll be honest, Traci. As I'm here on the other side of it, because yes, I'm an older friend than you. There is an energy that comes from the wisdom, the the mental strength, the lived experience that is so attractive to like the younger folks. I have younger friends, you know. I date so younger men, yeah, like you exactly. And I think that's why you have all like the social media things where it's like these women are in their 40s, these women are turning 50s, and they look like this versus maybe some of the younger folks who are like, you know, doing some things that we didn't discover till later in life, like I just feel like there's something different.

Traci Thomas 11:04

Younger kids' faces look like housewives in their 50s and 60s, and it's very confusing. Like the esthetic of their face, like the stuff they're getting done. I'm like, you're 22 and you look 50. Yeah, on purpose because of filters.

Rachel Lindsay 11:20

You know, that's what plastic surgeons were saying-that people were coming in and saying, "I want, I want to look like this filter, which is crazy. Okay, back to you. Forget these youngins.

Traci Thomas 11:29

Okay, I'm still young, Rachel.

Rachel Lindsay 11:34

Okay, no, I mean like the babies. You are young, fresh, beautiful, all the things, but to like link it to since this is the Stacks podcast into books. If this chapter of your life had a title, what would it be?

Traci Thomas 11:50

The chapter I'm going into.

Rachel Lindsay 11:52

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 11:54

Hmm. Somebody babysit my kids.

Rachel Lindsay 11:58

That's actually hilarious. Do you know that would be a bestseller on the title alone?

Traci Thomas 12:04

Yeah, somebody can maybe see my kids. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It's hard to trap title something that doesn't exist yet.

Rachel Lindsay 12:14

Interesting. Okay, so what title where where you are right now, or and maybe your energy going into this next chapter?

Traci Thomas 12:21

Well, can I just okay? I'm sort of flipping the question. It's not a good title, but I'm going to tell you about a mantra that I have used over the years. When I used to be a spin teacher, my mentor was this guy named Victor, and he's the best spin teacher, and he's the best guy. And I love Victor. And he used to always say in his spin classes, like when things would get hard, he would go, "Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything." And this is a thing that I use all the time. Like I remember, I was bike riding. I just learned how to ride a bike when I was like an adult, and I was bike riding in London on the city streets, and they had to close down a street, so we had to ride on like a main street in London. And I was panicking, and the whole time I just kept going, "Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything. Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything." And that is like what I feel like is my energy moving forward in life, because I feel like sometimes things are like really hard and challenging, and I would like to quit and give up, but I'm just like so morally opposed to quitting, and so oftentimes I have to. Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything myself because otherwise I would immediately quit. So that is not really a great book title, but that's sort of the energy.

Rachel Lindsay 13:37

It is. It's like you said. It's a mantra.

Traci Thomas 13:39

It's a little long. It's a little long of a title. I feel like the marketing team would be like, "Can we, can we zhuzh it a little bit?" Yeah, it would be me sitting on the cover with my arms crossed, like looking back.

Rachel Lindsay 13:55

I am for it. I'm. I'm a believer in mantras. Like as you're saying it, I'm like, I want to go write that on all the mirrors in my house. I put it on a post-it. Like it's a, it's a, it's a true thing. No, that works. That works.

Traci Thomas 14:06

It's a good one for me.

Rachel Lindsay 14:07

When I believe, I know you believe birthdays are celebrations, and they are. And I love to be celebrated as well. It's a month-long thing for me, maybe year. But I also look at it as a time of reflection. Like I truly look where I've been, where I am, and where I want to go, and I just think you're fabulous. And I say this for people who don't know: Traci and I met like this, just like this. She was interviewing me for her podcast, and you're. I just found you so captivating. I think you're one of the most interesting people. And if you guys have never seen her in a live show, it is ah, it's just amazing. Like I'm taking notes, truly, truly. And I'm not here to like gas you up for your birthday. This is how I really think about you. And I just thought, oh my god, I really want more of. I hope she wants to be my friend as well. Truly, truly, and so I like when you think about you know, like I said, like where you've been and where you are now. What is the accomplishment that you're most proud of that maybe most people don't know about?

Traci Thomas 15:16

I I don't know if people don't know this about me, but the thing that I'm the most proud of is like the collection of people that I have in my life. I was just talking about this this past weekend with some new parents, some parents that are new friends because they're my kids were just in kindergarten, so they're kindergarten parents, and we all got together for july 4. And I was just saying like how much how happy I was that I actually liked the parents, and one of the dads was like, you know, I was so shocked you included us in this today because, like, we just met and blah blah. And I was like, oh my god, Francis! Like, my favorite thing in the world is to like make new friends. Most people hate new friends; like, they don't want to do it. But I, I find it to be like thrilling. I love talking to people, and I love like, I, I feel like with making friends, it's like I don't know. I don't fish, but it's like net fishing, where you cast a wide net and you sort of pull all the fish in, and then you kind of have to go through and be like, yes, you do. Okay, like this is like a fun fish. Like if we're all going out, like I would invite them. But like, who's a fish that I want to like go to dinner with? And like who you know? Like I love to sort of cultivate like relationships, and during COVID, I remember like 2020, like the the heart of it. I spent so much time with my friends that I'd had for years because I had friends who were single and they were alone, and we were inviting them to the backyard to like eat dinner at a distance, and I was so worried about all of them. and And around, I think 20 your book came out 2022 because that was the year that my New Year's resolution was to actually go back to making new friends because I had spent so much time like on my my older friends and like friends I had for decades and I was like I really like need to branch out I need to make new friends and like that's the year you and I became good friends that's the year Sam Sanders and I really became friends. I think that's the year, no, the next year. It was the year Chelsea Devantes and I became friends. So it's like I, I really, and I love that. And I like so. I think the thing I'm the most proud of is I have all these great people, and they've all met and like become friends with each other, and not with cake party. Like I had a friend at cake party this last weekend who was the first time she came, but I met her through another friend who's a new friend. Like so, I don't know. That I think is like my most proud accomplishment, and and I I am very I feel very like special to have so many people and like to have the skills and the interest of like wanting to make new friends because so many people as they get older, are like no new friends.

Rachel Lindsay 17:43

Well, it's also it's not even that you just make new friends; it's that you make good new friends. I know the people that you just named, who I think are equally incredible. Anybody I have met through you has been great, and the the cake party that I went to, I didn't even know you knew someone who I had just met, and it's like you know.

Traci Thomas 18:03

Who was it?

Rachel Lindsay 18:06

Christiana

Traci Thomas 18:07

Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Christiana is how I met the friend who came to this most recent one. Yeah,

Rachel Lindsay 18:11

I and when I when that connects, I'm always like, okay, I'm on the right path in where I should be. But I think that that's a testament to you. You're not just anybody can go out and meet new people, but you're actually making friends, establishing relationships, and creating a community. And to your point, I don't think I realized how important community was until I moved to LA, where I had no family, and I really was starting over. I mean, I guess I had a husband, but you know, we all know how that played out. And I, and then from the divorce, how my community came together for me, and it just made me realize how important those other relationships are when you know the people you grew up with, or you spent the most time with, or you know you don't have right next to you anymore. So I'm going to ask you then the opposite of that, since that response was gathering people and collecting, yeah, what is something that you've let go of that you feel has made your life better?

Traci Thomas 19:10

You know what I'm working on letting go of, and this is like a work in progress because I'm so competitive. I'm really trying to work on letting go of jealousy.

Rachel Lindsay 19:19

Are you a jealous person?

Traci Thomas 19:22

I'm very jealous. I'm usually able to sort of convert it into just like total, like competition work ethic. Like I can usually turn my jealousy into something productive, but sometimes I really do get jealous.

Rachel Lindsay 19:37

In what way?

Traci Thomas 19:39

Everything.

Rachel Lindsay 19:40

I've never felt this sentiment from you.

Traci Thomas 19:44

Really,

Rachel Lindsay 19:44

if if you gave me three emotions and it was like two truths and a lie, I would be like not jealousy.

Traci Thomas 19:51

Oh, I'm so jealous

Rachel Lindsay 19:52

You do a great job of hiding it

Traci Thomas 19:54

Do you know what I okay? So this is this is what I've been trying to work on is that I feel it and I think like. It's just information,

Rachel Lindsay 20:01

okay.

Traci Thomas 20:01

And I try to be like, okay, I obviously want that thing that I didn't know that I wanted, or like, I whatever. But I also try to like, if it's someone that I love, I'm feeling that about. I really try hard to be like, but I'm excited for them because they're doing something that's great, and I try to tell them like, oh, you know, this is like a stupid example. This isn't real. I'm just making this up. But like, if you if you showed up and you like looked amazing, and I was feeling bad about my body, and I like looked at you and I was like, Rachel's so hot. Like, I hate it. I want to die. But I would say to you, Rachel, you look amazing today. Like, you look so good. Like, or whatever. Because what I'm feeling is jealousy, but what it really is is like I want something that you have, but like you probably are feeling shitty about yourself sometimes, and like it might just be nice to know that like whatever you're doing is working, or like however you're feeling is working. And I think some of this I started working on when I stopped being an actor, and a lot of my friends were like getting really successful in theater, and at first I was feeling like oh you failed, but now I'm like, oh my god! I get to go to Broadway and see like the seven best shows on Broadway every season, and my friends are winning Tonys and like whatever. But I still feel the jealousy sometimes, and so that's the thing I try to like let go of because it's not something I can control.

Rachel Lindsay 21:16

I think that that's such a vulnerable and honest answer, and I think that so many people who are listening to this are going to relate because maybe sometimes I think it's hard to identify the emotion that you're feeling. Yeah, and when you do, I think that it allows you to free yourself from it. And I think that someone listening to this is going to be like, "Wow, maybe that's what I would do. And this is why I don't think I've never felt your jealousy because to me, you might say like, "Oh, I like I need to shop in your closet. I like what you're wearing. Help me with styling. And I'm like, "Great! You can borrow whatever you want. I'll literally give you the key when I'm not here. Go have fun. And I think because you're not giving jealous energy, you like you're turning it into something else, which I think is a really, really positive tool. Like you may feel it, but I promise you, you do not execute it by any means. But I just love the way that you phrase that because I think, I think it's honest too. Because people look at you and they think they see your success, they see what you have, and like you said, you know, they you might be going through something, but they see you as something else, and that's a real thing, especially with social media, especially I do the same thing. To be very honest with you, Traci, like I look at what people are doing, and I'm like, why didn't I get that, or why do they have that? And I'm like, somebody's probably doing that same thing with me. They're looking at me, thinking certain things, and so I feel

Traci Thomas 22:35

that all the time. Yeah, when other people have success, like in the same industry as me, that's really that's hard on me, and I try, I try to be like it's okay, like it's not for you, whatever. Which doesn't that doesn't always work for me. The like what's meant for you is meant for you. That one doesn't quite work for me. I don't know. Is that a Christiany thing?

Rachel Lindsay 22:53

It's an optimistic thing that doesn't resonate with me. I turn that into work ethic when I see that and I feel it, I'm like work harder.

Traci Thomas 23:03

Yes, I'm like okay. I'm doing I'm doing that next year. I want that invite or like whatever. Um, or I'm gonna do the like next bigger thing. I'm like, oh, like there was a time where this is such a small thing, but there was a time where Oprah did like a book event in New York, and a bunch of other book influencers got to go and they got to like meet Oprah, but there were like 30 of them. Yeah, and of course I was jealous because Oprah's like my idol. But I turned that into okay, but I don't want to meet Oprah with 30 other people. I don't want to meet Oprah. Was she really like her shoe? That that's not that's not my goal to like sit in a room and have her shake my hand. My goal is to like be invited to a dinner with Oprah or a lunch, you know, like, or like, have her on this podcast. But like, at first, I was like, I can't believe all these fucking people who don't even fucking love Oprah. Like, I love Oprah. You know, like I was like really for like 30 minutes, and then I was like, wait a second, I don't even want to meet Oprah at the Strand Bookstore. And no shots to people who got to go. That's amazing that you got to go, and I would have loved to be there. And I'm totally jealous. But the truth is, the thing that I really want is to like interface with Oprah.

Rachel Lindsay 24:03

Yeah, that and there's nothing. Yeah, like so you you just you shift your mindset, which yeah

Traci Thomas 24:10

That's what I'm working on.

Rachel Lindsay 24:11

Mind over matter. It's such a powerful thing. All right, looking forward because there's such there's so much that the future is exciting. The future used to scare me, and sometimes it still does. But again, shift my mindset. What are you looking forward to in your 40s? What do you want for yourself?

Traci Thomas 24:32

Okay, this is going to sound horrible, but I'm just going to say it. Maybe I shouldn't say it.

Rachel Lindsay 24:37

Say it first, and then we'll decide.

Traci Thomas 24:40

Well, like I just like want to be richer.

Rachel Lindsay 24:44

There's in light of the state in the state of our economy. Okay, yeah, this is a real feeling for women in their 40s. I was just having this conversation with my sorority sisters. Shout out to Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Incorporated, and my my sorority. Sister Shannon, who you've met, was like, "I'm tired of working, and she's like, "I've been working for this long. It's like Charlotte and Sex in the City. Like, where is he? I've been dating for this long. She's like, "I've been working for this long. I'm ready to retire. And she was like, "I'm. How does she phrase it? I don't have time to look through my phone, but she called it like work. She makes good money, but not rich, or something like that. And she's like, "I'm tired of like working hard, having a good job, making good money, and I still feel poor. And I think that's just the sentiment for where we live in. So there's nothing wrong with saying that.

Traci Thomas 25:34

Yeah, I just think it's also very L.A. Like, because L.A. is so expensive. Like, it's such an expensive. I mean, I don't mean I don't mean so L.A. I mean like we live in one of the most expensive states and one of the most expensive cities, and so I feel like there is a feeling about money here that is different than maybe if you lived somewhere else where things were more affordable. Yeah, but that's something I'm sort of trying to manifest for myself. Is like there's a little more money. What else? That's so. That is. It's pretty shallow, but it's fine. I can be shallow also, mostly. I mean, I also just like. Can I say another morbid thing, and then we can be done?

Rachel Lindsay 26:13

Yes. See, I try to turn positive. This is so. Go ahead.

Traci Thomas 26:16

Well, no. So, like, for my 40th birthday, like I'm having a big party, and I just feel like 40 is the last birthday that you get before things start to get sad. If you're lucky, I feel like by the time you get to 50, like sad things start to happen. And I know, I know that's like morbid, but I think it's true. And I just feel like I'm trying to like enjoy. I'm trying to manifest like as much joy and like good stuff, and like, and I'm not saying that bad things haven't happened to me before 40, but I do feel like, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying. Last year, I had like a really tragic thing happen to one of my very close friends, and I think about it a lot, obviously. And one of the things I think about is like how, because of this, we got much closer. This friend and I, and his mom said something to me. We were like, at dinner, I was helping cook at the house with his family, and his mom was like, you know, you guys are so lucky to have each other. And I was like, yeah, we've had 20 years of like so much fun that it's like you put in all this hard work to have a great time with your friends, so that when shit hits the fan, like you have all of that holding up the relationship, and so I feel like one of the other things that I'm like sort of welcoming in is like again back to this community thing is like more intimacy with people, more deeper friendships to like help carry whatever is coming down, that might be shitty.

Rachel Lindsay 27:44

Okay, so see, this is what I'm going to pull from that. In your 40s, you want intimacy, connection, joy, community, wealth, manifesting. Yes, these are all wonderful things, and I want all of that for you too. Okay, before I let you go

Traci Thomas 27:59

And I want to run a six-minute mile.

Rachel Lindsay 28:01

You said this to me before, which I applaud.

Traci Thomas 28:03

I just ran a 616 I ran a 616 and I had a. I had it. Speaking of mental, I had a total. I got the yips in the middle of my of my mile. I stopped and I walked for like 30 seconds. So I could have done it, but I had a total panic. I was like, I'm gonna fall off this treadmill. Like I had a full on, I can't do it. Moment in the, I got three minutes in and just was like, I have to walk. I have to walk. I have to walk, and I like quit. And then I was like, You're not going to quit. Just finish. And then I finished, and I got a 616 So I feel like I'm really close. I'm going to try to get there.

Rachel Lindsay 28:31

You are close. What speed do you have to run on the treadmill to get? Like, what's the consistent speed?

Traci Thomas 28:36

It's a 10 minute mile, or sorry, 10 miles per hour.

Rachel Lindsay 28:39

You're running at a 10

Traci Thomas 28:41

for six minutes.

Rachel Lindsay 28:42

can't do it for that for 30 seconds longer than 30 seconds. That is impressive. I see it for you.

Traci Thomas 28:48

Yeah.

Rachel Lindsay 28:48

Okay. I can't wait. And then all that. Okay. That too. Okay. Before I let you go, rapid fire, really quickly, really, really quickly.

Traci Thomas 28:57

Okay.

Rachel Lindsay 28:57

One word for your 30s.

Traci Thomas 28:59

Fun.

Rachel Lindsay 29:00

Great. One word for your 40s:

Traci Thomas 29:05

abundant, positive,

Rachel Lindsay 29:07

abundance. Didn't we talk about this word?

Traci Thomas 29:09

But yes, but but positive.

Rachel Lindsay 29:11

Okay

Traci Thomas 29:11

because I once did abundance and I got bad, so I want abundant, positive abundance.

Rachel Lindsay 29:16

Restoration. That's what we talked about. Positive.

Traci Thomas 29:18

That's the word for this year.

Rachel Lindsay 29:19

Yeah. Something you finally stopped caring about.

Traci Thomas 29:23

I don't know. I care about everything. I stopped caring. I stopped about caring about what size my clothes are.

Rachel Lindsay 29:33

This is important. This is important.

Traci Thomas 29:35

Sometimes I'm a large. Sometimes I'm a medium. And sometimes I'm a small. And sometimes these clothing companies lie to you

Rachel Lindsay 29:40

exactly, exactly. The age you feel on the inside?

Traci Thomas 29:45

33.

Rachel Lindsay 29:46

If 40 came with a warranty, what would you want to be covered?

Traci Thomas 29:50

My health insurance. My body.

Rachel Lindsay 29:56

What is? You probably don't have this list, but. I'm gonna make you do this. I'm gonna make you do this later. What is one thing on your 40 before 50 list?

Traci Thomas 30:07

I really want to go to Morocco.

Rachel Lindsay 30:09

Okay, we're going. My girlfriend's just went. Traci, I'm gonna let you go.

Traci Thomas 30:16

I love you.

Rachel Lindsay 30:17

I love you so much. I'm so excited for you. Take that mantra, take that joy, take all the things that you want for yourself, bottle them up inside. I can't wait for you to see all that you do in 40 and beyond. I'm excited for you. I'm excited, and I'm so happy to celebrate with you, and I'm so happy to call you friend.

Traci Thomas 30:37

I love you so much. Thank you for doing this. You are the best.

Rachel Lindsay 30:40

Of course.

Traci Thomas 30:46

Next up is Sam Sanders. You all know Sam Sanders from his podcast, The Sam Sanders Show. He has been on this podcast. I have been on his podcast. I love Sam so much, and he came to the table today talking about meeting up at the table, we have a conversation about food and hosting, and I absolutely love that Sam decided to use this angle to talk about our relationship and something that I hold so so dear.

Sam Sanders 31:12

Traci, hi, hi, greetings from truly the tiniest hotel room in Manhattan.

Traci Thomas 31:19

Is it the Ace?

Sam Sanders 31:20

No, it's even smaller than that. I found a new hotel with really cheap rates. It's called the Little Something, and I'll show you the room. That's the bed and the window.

Traci Thomas 31:29

Oh yeah

Sam Sanders 31:29

That's the bathroom behind me, and that's the door.

Traci Thomas 31:31

Oh my god

Sam Sanders 31:32

that's it, baby. Pack tight. I'm excited to talk to you, and happy early birthday.

Traci Thomas 31:36

Thank you. Well, when everybody's listening to this. It'll be my actual birthday.

Sam Sanders 31:41

I love it. july 22 I love it.

Traci Thomas 31:42

Yeah, yeah.

Sam Sanders 31:42

Okay, I was really struggling over what to talk to you about because there's so much to talk to you about. I'm interested in how your career has gone through different iterations as you've been doing your thing. I am into you as a mother. I am into you as just like a force in the world. But I realized one of the things that I'm always not just impressed by, but like warmed and welcomed by is your relationship to food and your community. Yes, like all the time. Whenever I've hung out with you, there's been food involved, and always, and it's been part of some of my like favorite moments in LA. I don't know if you remember this, but I was over at your house for Thanksgiving one year. It was the first year after my mother had died, and you had me and my aunt Betty at your house for that Thanksgiving dinner, and it was so healing. And the food really helped to make it so you. I can't even begin to describe your spread. There was a spreadsheet. There were your sister-in-law was involved. It was a to-do. Like describe your Thanksgiving spread.

Traci Thomas 32:54

Okay, first of all, of course I remember that. Yeah, very important to me. Aunt Betty brought her famous cake. Obviously,

Sam Sanders 33:02

she did her pound cake. Yeah

Traci Thomas 33:04

she did. So Sarah and I, Sarah's my sister-in-law. She was also the second guest ever on this podcast, and she and I have been friends since we were 16 years old. So we our friendship predates her relationship with my brother. She and I, we love a spreadsheet. We are both very Type A people. We love to cook. We love to bake all year long. We send each other recipes, not for Thanksgiving, but just like in life in general. And every other year, we do Thanksgiving together, and then every other year, we do Christmas together. So you were there for a Thanksgiving year, and we start talking about what we want to do, like a month in advance.

Sam Sanders 33:46

That's a lot. Some

Traci Thomas 33:46

years we make our the turkey ourselves. This year we made the turkey ourselves. Some years I outsource it because there's a barbecue place nearby that deep fries a turkey. Yeah, and I'm never gonna deep fry a turkey myself.

Sam Sanders 33:58

It's dangerous

Traci Thomas 33:59

But this year we spatchcocked, and then we decide what other thing we want to do. So this year, so that year, Sarah wanted to make these braised short ribs.

Sam Sanders 34:09

Girl, those short. I still talk about the short ribs with Betty. You impressed us so much. Both of us tried on our own afterwards to make those short ribs. We both failed. I ended up putting mine in a crock pot with tomato sauce. I think Betty was like, "This is a lot. It was it was an intricate recipe, and that wasn't even your main meat.

Traci Thomas 34:28

No, but Sarah Sarah was in charge of the short ribs. I can't take her. I I was her sous chef on that. But so then we do that. Then we go through all of the sides, and we're like, "What are we gonna do? What do you want to make? What do we have to have the way that we have to have it. So those are the things Sarah and I make. Everything else we outsource. My mom always makes the stuffing because she uses my grandmother's recipe, and then Sarah really likes mashed potatoes, so I make the mashed potatoes. And then dessert, we always make at least one Sarah and I because we love dessert and we never want. Not have a dessert that we love, and then we usually outsource a dessert. We'll outsource an appetizer. But honestly, like neither of us really like to outsource. We just know that we should because people want to bring stuff. But mostly, we make a full fledged Thanksgiving dinner and then outsource like extra toppings. Like it'll be like we're gonna make a vegetable, but also you could make a vegetable. Like we want this vegetable, or like we want to try this recipe, but what I found out when I interviewed Samin Nosrat is that she sometimes will outsource a recipe to the person. So not only will she be like you're making green beans, but she'll be like you're making these green beans.

Sam Sanders 35:34

That's Samin. That is very Samin.

Traci Thomas 35:38

I might start doing that.

Sam Sanders 35:40

tell them what you want.

Traci Thomas 35:41

Like if you don't, I always say to people, if there's something that you need to have to make it feel like Thanksgiving, that's what you should bring. But if they say, "Well, I don't know, then I'm like, I I'm like, well, maybe do like a green vegetable. But now I'm going to be like, do these asparagus?

Sam Sanders 35:56

Yes. Well, and this is what I love about the way you build community through your food, there are lots of folks who are foodies that make good spreads, and it is a process that's centered on them. And you walk into their kitchen day of, and they're making this great spread, but they're stressed and they're mean and they're yelling, and it's like you're in an episode of The Bear. Every time I've been in your home where there's a big spread happening, it's still relaxed. You're still friendly. You're still hanging, and I think some of it is because you do a really good job of outsourcing and delegation. But also, you just have the kind of constitution. You're not a mean chef. I want you to speak on that because I've been in people's homes where they're cooking down, but they're an asshole in the process, and I got to sit in the corner and wait until all of the stoves are turned off because it's like, ah, you don't do that. What is your secret?

Traci Thomas 36:48

I don't know. I think because okay, I think part of my secret is most of the recipes are really easy

Sam Sanders 36:54

Not the short ribs.

Traci Thomas 36:56

But and the other part of it is that mostly everything's done by the time you get home, get there. That's what the schedule is for.

Sam Sanders 37:02

Ah, so you're doing it in advance.

Traci Thomas 37:03

Yeah. So like, I make the mac and cheese the day before. So when you get there and I'm pulling the mac and cheese out of the oven, that's just the cooking it in the oven. That's literally putting it in for 20 minutes and setting a timer. The the only things I make day of usually are like the bread, but that starts the day before, and that's also just putting it in the oven, and then the turkey has to be made that day. But again, that's like you dry brine it, you leave it in the fridge for 24 to 48 hours, and then you just put it in the oven. I'm not doing a bunch of like you have to come in and baste and cut and flip and flop. Like I'm not doing that because I I like the reason I like to host is because I like having people over and spending time with people, so if I'm going to be in the kitchen the whole time being upset, like that sucks. Like this year, I don't know if you remember, but we took the turkey out, and when we took it out, our meat thermometer broke, and then we were cutting it, and it was undercooked, and we had to like put it back in. So like dinner was like super delayed, and both Sarah and I were like, "Oh my god, oh my god"

Sam Sanders 37:59

I don't even remember, because I was just hanging and chilling

Traci Thomas 38:02

You guys were all outside drinking, and we were in the kitchen, and it was just like go do, you know, like I don't know, I don't, I don't remember my mom ever being stressed when she was hosting, and I'm sure she was, but I also feel like there's so much going on, and if there's like snacks and drinks, and you get the right people together, it's fun, and also like Thanksgiving is family, so if something goes wrong, something goes wrong. Like if the turkey was really undercooked, we had to eat it later, or like put plates in the microwave. Like we just would have done that, you know. Like it's it's one meal. It's like yeah, I've definitely overcooked the turkey. The first year I ever did Thanksgiving, I overcooked it so much, and I was so sad about it because I eat turkey once a year, but mostly I just-it's not that serious.

Sam Sanders 38:43

I love it. Also, re-turkey. Give yourself grace and space. It's the hardest bird to cook. It's a hard bird. Yeah. It's difficult to make it tender and tasty.

Traci Thomas 38:53

I dry brine. That'll do it for you every time. Yeah.

Sam Sanders 38:56

Yeah. I think a lot about the relationship between food and community and gathering, and I always leave your things, whether whether it's a Thanksgiving dinner or a cake party you throw once a month or whatever. And I feel lifted, connected, and also full. What is your north star in terms of the type of community you're hoping to build when you gather people around food. you know the thesis statement or the elevator pitch for like what Traci's doing when she gathers folks around food.

Traci Thomas 39:27

I don't know if I I don't know if I have a thesis statement, but my guiding principle for all gatherings, whether it's this podcast or a hang or a cake party or whatever, is all comes from Priya Parker, who you know

Sam Sanders 39:39

we did.

Traci Thomas 39:42

Who's been on the show, Whose book, The Art of Gathering, is one of my favorite. Who's got a new book, The Art of Fighting, The Art of Fighting? Yeah, yeah. Can't wait. And I think like a lot of it is just like I usually put in my invitation. I try to set the tone. So, like, I send the email with cake party. It's a very chill thing. You don't need to bring anything. I'm making some cakes. Show up, drop by. Can't make it. See you next month. And that's what the invite email says every time. It's just like, hey guys, it's another cake party. So excited. Come by. Yeah. You know, and and it's not a bunch of stuff. For Thanksgiving, it's a more detailed thing because it's like a more intense event, but it's still pretty chill. And I think mostly it's just like a matter of getting the right people together, and that does the that does the work. So I think a lot of it is like in the invitation situation as opposed to in the actual tone of the event. But anything I do at my house is pretty chill in general. And also, I I like bringing people together, so I think I also think a lot about like introducing people and connecting people, and like if I if someone new comes to my house and they walk in the kitchen and we're having cake party and everybody's there, I try to introduce them and I'll be like, oh, you you would know Sam because you and Sam both know Priya Parker, and then be like, right, and like try to kind of get the conversation going a little bit, and I trust that the people that I know and love invite into my house can do the rest, right? Like I don't have a lot of friends who aren't chatty or curious or interesting, and so I think that does a lot of the work. And if I do have people like that, I might like spend a little more time trying to like make sure it's going or like pop back over and check in. And like, if there's someone who's brand new, I might spend more time with them throughout the whole event than I would someone like you, who like you know a lot of people in my circle now. Like you're part of the circle, versus like your first Thanksgiving. I feel like I was with you a lot more than I probably was this year because I like you didn't know everybody, and same with Aunt Betty. So I don't know. That's I guess how I think about it

Sam Sanders 41:41

I get that. What do you do? You know, because I, you know, how I do things. When I have folks to my house, I'm ordering the food. I'm either ordering food or bringing people over to like cook it for us. I had these wonderful-I just call them papusa crew.

Traci Thomas 41:54

That was amazing.

Sam Sanders 41:55

These lovely ladies from East LA that just come and make papusas in your backyard, and that was my birthday last year. Probably same for this year. So I guess my question for you next is like, for someone like me who outsources food for gatherings, if I wanted to try a gathering and make the food myself, but still have a Traci vibe, it's chill, it's cool, let's hang. Don't get too hung up on it. Where would you have me start? As someone who gets kind of nervous when more than one thing is on at once, when when more than one pot is on the stove at once,

Traci Thomas 42:26

so okay, I have a few pieces of advice. One is that I also love an outsourced party. Like I love a pizza party at my house. I love ordering a pizza at the end of cake party. People who stick around who have kids, I just make a bunch of grilled cheese and I just stick them on a plate. Nice, very easy. A BLT party, if you wanted to make something, that's a good one. Bacon, you can cook in the oven. You can toast the bread very easily in the oven at the same time. You can cut the lettuce, cut the tomatoes, get everything prepared in advance, put it on a platter, get some spreads, easy.

Sam Sanders 42:57

Ah, bam,

Traci Thomas 42:59

out, and then outsource the dessert. Get some cookies from Levan Bakery or whatever place you like. I don't know. I just came with my hat bun.

Sam Sanders 43:05

Bougie, fancy. Okay. Personal preference. The cookies are too big. They're too big. They're heavy. These are high

Traci Thomas 43:10

If I ever serve Levain cookies, I cut them in quarters and put them on top.

Sam Sanders 43:14

You got to,

Traci Thomas 43:15

and then you can mix up. You can try a few different tastes. Yeah. Or like ice cream sundae is a great easy thing. You don't have to make a thing. You just buy some sauces. Maybe if you're feeling crazy, you make a caramel, your own caramel sauce, or like you make your own strawberry, whatever. But like, who doesn't love to shake up the whipped cream thing and put it on? Get some sprinkles. Like I think a lot of sort of like bar, like grilled cheese bar, hot dog bar, that kind of thing, very easy. Also, I I love to throw apart a pizza party and then like make my own salads or like make my own appetizers. So you're sort of doing half and half. A salad is an easy thing because you can make a dressing a day or two in advance, put it in the fridge. You can do all your lettuce in advance, and you just have to toss it together. So I think I live and die by the schedule. So for me, it's like, what am I gonna make? What's the schedule? Whatever, because I don't like to be stressed at the end. I don't like to be running out of things. Also, like pasta, like a big pasta, like a like a spaghetti alla vongle, like the clam pasta. That's a really it's like it's like a lemon wine sauce with just like clams, and clams are pretty easy. You clean them, you put them in. It's like it's a 15 minute pasta, but it's like feels so fancy. Get a big loaf of crusty bread, rip it up. Like there's, I feel like mostly the best hosting is easy stuff.

Sam Sanders 44:35

I like that. What is one thing where you're like never do that? One thing you see people do at gatherings and food gatherings, where you're like, that was no, don't do that.

Traci Thomas 44:44

I don't know. I that I that so depends. I mean, I if it's like a big gathering of people you're trying to impress or something, I would say never try something you've never tried before.

Sam Sanders 44:56

Ah

Traci Thomas 44:57

unless like sometimes like with cake party the. Understanding is I'm trying this cake for the first time, so if it fails, it fails.

Sam Sanders 45:04

Yeah, yeah

Traci Thomas 45:05

that's like part of the part of the whole point of the party, so that I can like bake cake. So if I'm trying to, you know, like, but I feel like if I was like having a dinner party and then I tried something and I was like making something really hard or complicated, I would say maybe don't do that. Also, like, you know, never have not enough food.

Sam Sanders 45:24

That's the thing. Always have more than enough. You can eat it later, or yeah, send it home.

Traci Thomas 45:28

I'm black and Jewish, so like, we don't ever not have enough food. But I do. I have been places where, like, I looked at the spread and I was like, that does not feel like enough food.

Sam Sanders 45:39

Yeah, my my thing, and it's not even a personal rule because I'm not cooking enough for this. But when you invite people over because you're making dinner, one thing that just sends the wrong message to me when I walk in your house is when you're like, "Okay, welcome, stay out of the kitchen.

Traci Thomas 45:55

Oh yeah,

Sam Sanders 45:56

you're in the kitchen.

Traci Thomas 45:57

Yeah, the kitchen's the bubble part of the

Sam Sanders 45:58

house. I want to see you. I can help you stir these things and move these people. Like I hate the ones like you sit over there while I finish this shit.

Traci Thomas 46:06

The only time I ever do that is at the very very end. Like if we're like cutting the bird or whatever, and it's like I'm like yeah. But usually I do it in a different way. Usually I do it like, okay, we're about to eat. Can you go get the kids? Or like, hey, can you let everybody know? Like if someone's in my way in my kitchen, you don't have those bar stools. So if you have a seat at the bar, you can stay. But if you're walking around behind me, like by the sink, you got to go.

Sam Sanders 46:31

yeah. You have unlimited budget, any venue, any number of people you want, but you got to organize the cooking of the meal.

Traci Thomas 46:40

Do I have to actually cook it?

Sam Sanders 46:42

You have to facilitate it. You'd be in charge of it.

Traci Thomas 46:44

Oh, I know what it is. A crab feed. A crab feed.

Sam Sanders 46:48

Crab feed. What is a crab feed?

Traci Thomas 46:50

A crab feed is like like boil all the crabs, and you like put the newspaper on the table, and then you like dump the crabs on the table, and you've got like the a crab boil. Do people call it a crab boil?

Sam Sanders 46:58

Yeah Crab boil, Crawfish boil. Crab loyal, yeah.

Traci Thomas 47:00

One of those big long tables, tons of newspaper bibs, melted butter everywhere. Some maybe like a big Caesar salad or like an herby green salad. Tons of crabs, seafood, and then I I think maybe you finish it with an ice cream sundae or like sorbet bar or something like cold, light, fun, fresh-something like that. that's a fun party. Do you know what I mean? Everyone's messy

Sam Sanders 47:24

until three hours later when I'm at home full of crab and ice cream.

Traci Thomas 47:31

Is that bad for you and for your stomach?

Sam Sanders 47:33

The older I get, the more I'm like, dairy. We got to go careful with you.

Traci Thomas 47:36

Well, that's why I said sorbet too. We'd have all sorts of options. You could have like you could have like a sorbet. You could have like maybe maybe we even have. I have no budget. Maybe we even have like a snow cone thing. Oh, I don't know. Something just really fun.

Sam Sanders 47:48

Dress code.

Traci Thomas 47:49

Dress code casual. Very casual.

Sam Sanders 47:54

I love it. I love it. I'm trying to think what mine would be. I love the idea of a grill outside.

Traci Thomas 47:59

Love a grill.

Sam Sanders 48:01

I love the idea of making pizza, and like one or two people are really good at it, and then like we all kind of help, but like we got some ringleaders. I have found so when I've had things at my house where like the grill is open, open, the straight men flock to it.

Traci Thomas 48:18

They love it, and I'm like, y'all gonna have to be.

Sam Sanders 48:18

Do some work, do some labor, and then me and the women can boss them around. It's pretty great, and they love it.

Traci Thomas 48:26

Yeah,

Sam Sanders 48:27

what has becoming someone who is good at food and gathering? What has doing that taught you about how to live the rest of your life?

Traci Thomas 48:38

Well, you know, as they say in the musical Chicago, I simply could not do it alone. You know, like that's. I feel that way strongly about life, and I feel like

Sam Sanders 48:46

yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:46

a lot of the work that I do in feeding everyone and having people over and all of that is sort of like life insurance on knowing that like I can gather with these people when things aren't bad. Like I know that if I needed a meal,

Sam Sanders 48:59

aren't good.

Traci Thomas 49:00

sorry. When things aren't good, yeah. When things aren't good, I know if I needed a meal, I I know there's a lot of places I could go to get one easily. Like I know there's a lot of people that like I have invested my life into that would that will and do invest their lives back into me, and I think like sharing a meal in that way is like such an. It's just like sitting down at a table and talking and like looking at people and all of that, so I don't know. That's how you pay it forward

Sam Sanders 49:23

in friendship. I like, yeah,

Traci Thomas 49:25

because you're making space for memories. Because like those are the when things get bad, I feel like inevitably the conversation turns like to the memories, right? It's like remember that time. Like I remember you saying at Thanksgiving that like Thanksgiving was like your mom's holiday that first year, and like how important how important those memories were to you. And I feel like when things are bad and sad, we turn towards our memories. And I feel like having people over and eating together is like such an easy way to make memories, right? Like I couldn't quite remember if you were at the Asada, but you remembered, and like I just feel like it's like. We these meals become sort of like touchstones in our lives, so I think that's important. I also think like food is quite literally nourishment, and so like eating together. I don't know. I just I'm I was raised. My parents always hosted everything, so I also didn't know that people didn't other fam. It never occurred to me that if everybody was coming to our house, they're doing this all the time. Yeah, right. But it never occurred to me that if everyone's coming to our house, well, then we're obviously not all going to their house because they're at our house. Like I don't know. So I just assume that you host, and I don't know. Like I said, I'm black and Jewish, and both of those cultures are very like come on over friendly. it's very different than like the wasps. You know, it's very much not the nuclear family situation.

Sam Sanders 50:48

Yeah, I love this idea of food and gathering as like friend life insurance. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, well, listen. I am, you know, hearing you talk about this. It just reminds me of why I value your friendship so much is because you are very intentional about friendship. You take it seriously. You think about it. You cultivate it, and I can see that in our friendship and all of your other ones. It's a beautiful thing. And so, my only hope for you is that the next 40 years are even more full of deep and rich friendship, and short ribs,

Traci Thomas 51:23

and My crab feed. Now I gotta have crab feed.

Sam Sanders 51:26

Yes, yes.

Traci Thomas 51:29

Well, I love you so much. Thank you so much for doing this.

Sam Sanders 51:32

I do too. Honored to do it.

Traci Thomas 51:34

I just can't believe we're friends. It's so nice to be friends.

Sam Sanders 51:36

So happy we're friends. Happy 40th! I'm ready for all the festivities.

Traci Thomas 51:45

Next up is one of my oldest friends, Becca Tobin. She is an actress who you might know from Glee. She is one of the co-hosts of the Lady Gang podcast. I have known Becca since I was a freshman at NYU. I was 18 years old when we met, and we have been friends for the last 22 years. I am thrilled to get to have this conversation with Becca. Okay, everybody, I'm so excited. This is Becca Tobin, one of my actual oldest friends. I've known you since I was 18.

Becca Tobin 52:13

18, NYU. You were there. I was not. I didn't get in. I was at another B Squad conservatory.

Traci Thomas 52:20

But you were my first friend who did like a professional acting job. I feel because you were the white cat and cats. Remember?

Becca Tobin 52:27

Well yes, I was 19. I was 19 years old, just a baby

Traci Thomas 52:30

And you left school to like go do that tour. And I remember being like, "Becca's gonna make it. Becca's a star.

Becca Tobin 52:36

Little did you know, I peaked there. Really did. Nothing is quite compared to that experience, as it you know that was my college experience. Similarly to you smoking hookah in you know Lower East Side of Manhattan.

Traci Thomas 52:50

You got to do that too. Did you see the revival?

Becca Tobin 52:53

No, I have friends that just went and it looked very fun. But I I it that's what I've heard. I'm devastated because this is the season. This is a season of Broadway where I wanted more than any time to get on a plane, get to New York, and get see a show every day or twice a day. Yeah, there's so much I want to see, and I am not going to be able to get there.

Traci Thomas 53:16

I saw three things, and they were all.

Becca Tobin 53:17

What'd you see?

Traci Thomas 53:18

I saw Ragtime with Brandon,

Becca Tobin 53:20

obviously,

Traci Thomas 53:20

and then I saw Cats, and then I went to see Sam Pinkleton's Rocky Horror.

Becca Tobin 53:27

Oh, fun!

Traci Thomas 53:28

Yeah, but Cats was the first time I saw a show in probably a decade that was just for fun. Normally, it's like I'm going to see so and so in a show, or like I like I've seen a lot of things over the years that are supporting people, but like I have not seen a lot of things just because I really wanted to, so that was fun. But the white cat in that Victoria or whatever is that what you played? You played the white cat.

Becca Tobin 53:48

No.

Traci Thomas 53:48

Oh, I thought you played the white cat.

Becca Tobin 53:51

I was a cat named etc.

Traci Thomas 53:53

Oh well, the white cat was the stole the show. Oh

Becca Tobin 53:56

yeah, she always does.

Traci Thomas 53:58

She was great. Anyways, this isn't about a fucking white cat. This is about me. Happy birthday!

Becca Tobin 54:05

You are our star. Happy birthday!

Traci Thomas 54:08

Thanks, Boo.

Becca Tobin 54:09

I just turned 40 in January, and I feel like an elder, and I have all this wisdom to impart, and I can't wait. But I brought some questions that I have to ask you. First of all, how are you just feeling in general about turning 40?

Traci Thomas 54:28

I feel good about it. I like a birthday. I like getting older. I don't. I don't have weird age things.

Becca Tobin 54:34

Yeah, I didn't either. Like the anticipatory feeling of it was a little weird, just being just the existential part of it. Of like, whoa, this could be halfway through.

Traci Thomas 54:46

Yeah, I feel like I was more pressed about turning 30. Weirdly,

Becca Tobin 54:51

really, like

Traci Thomas 54:52

I just remember being like 30. Like I know 40 is the big one, but I sort of feel like I do feel 40 in some ways. Like I feel like I've lived a life. A little bit, but also I feel like I don't know. The only thing I don't like about turning 40 this is so stupid. But sometimes when people are like, "Oh, you look so much younger, I'm like, "Oh, thank you. Or not when they say you look younger. When they say I thought you were younger, I almost sometimes feel like it's an insult. I'm like, "Am I so immature that you thought I was 12?

Becca Tobin 55:19

No, it's because you look the way you do

Traci Thomas 55:21

But sometimes they couch it in a different way. Where I'm like, "Thank you, and also, "I hate you"

Becca Tobin 55:27

No, no, no, no. It's not. You have a young energy, but not immature.

Traci Thomas 55:31

You know, I have a young energy. That is true.

Becca Tobin 55:33

Young energy. And speaking of young young energy, okay. So, what are you inviting into this decade, and what are you leaving behind? And it can be something that you had like once had in your 20s, like a point of a perspective, or just like a joie de vivre, like a overall thing that maybe you lost along the way. Because I know becoming a mother was a time that I was sucked the living life out of me, and so it's a it it was like a weird decade of the '30s. So it's like, do you want to bring anything in from '20s, or you want to leave anything back from '30s?

Traci Thomas 56:10

Okay, so Rachel asked this question yesterday, so I'm not going to answer it fully because I answered it with Rachel. But yesterday, after I talked to Rachel, I went to a cafe and I was like reading my book, and I, I feel good about my answer for what I'm like inviting in, but what I'm leaving behind, I said something about like I don't know, I was like didn't want to care about like what size clothes I wore, like because I like because that's like marketing, that's like that's like cut of a pants. It's not like my body, but the real thing that I want to not have in my life as I move forward, and I text her this. Literally, I was at a cafe reading, and I was like, "I know the answer, and the answer is boring people. I'm tired of boring people. I I have friends that are boring to me that I find boring, and I'm just like, I don't, I don't want to be friends with you anymore. And like, I've known them for a long time. I feel like I have to be friends with them, or like, I meet a mom at like a kid thing, and I'm like, this is a boring mom. I don't want to be friends with this mom, and I like attention, and I like to be loved, and I sometimes will be like overly nice to someone, just like on principle, even though I'm like, I don't actually want to go out to dinner with you, like I don't actually want to do a play date, and so I'm really trying to cut the boring people out of my life, moving forward.

Becca Tobin 57:24

I love that.

Traci Thomas 57:25

And you can be quiet. You just have to be interesting. Like, yes, I just don't want to have the same conversation with people every single time I see them. And I feel like with boring people, that's what I get. So that's what I'm getting rid of. Goodbye, Boros.

Becca Tobin 57:37

So true. It's true. I actually feel the same way about. I think now too in in this era, I can sit back and appreciate a big personality, and I don't need feel the need to correct them or fix them or do anything other than observe. And I think before I felt this need to only be with people that really were so similar to myself, in the way that they go through life and the way that they, you know, live their life, the way they dated, the way they did all the things, and now I'm like, parent the way that you want, be insane, be a big personality. But you're right, it's like the boring people have got to go.

Traci Thomas 58:15

They got to go, and like again, you can be like, you know, I love, I love betas. Like there are a lot of betas that I love. It's not about being alpha. It's about like if you're a beta, are you observing, and then you're gonna call me and we're gonna talk shit about it for seven hours? Like you just have to bring something to the table. So that's what I'm cutting out of my life, the boros.

Becca Tobin 58:36

Okay. Well, this is kind of in line with boring people.

Traci Thomas 58:38

Okay.

Becca Tobin 58:39

I my favorite thing is when you talk shit about books, and I want to know the worst book you've read in this decade. What is one that just like poo poo so stinky you can never forget how bad it?

Traci Thomas 58:50

I'm not going to tell you the worst book because I actually think it's like sort of boring because nobody cares and nobody's going to read it, and it was like something that made no no buzz. I'm going to tell you the two big books that have pissed me off the most in the last I don't know eight years since I've been doing the show, and they are tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow and yesteryear. I can't stand either of those books. And what's amazing is they have the same editor, Jenny Jackson, who's written two books, and I've not read either of them, and I don't plan on it. But I really don't like those books. I think they are bad in different ways, and also in similar ways. I found tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow to be so much hype and so much manipulation, and like a basically fine but not great book that was annoying. And then I found yesteryear to be a really bad, poorly written book, bad story construction. And what both of them have in common that I think is what makes me hate them so much is so many people being like, "Oh, you didn't get it. They're actually amazing, and I'm like, "No, I fucking get it. I don't like it. And like I've said this before on the show, you can like things that are bad. You can like things that are low quality. I do. My dress I'm wearing right now is from Old Navy. Okay, I it's I. I mean, I love old navy, and they have actually great quality because they still use real cotton. But fine, but like I understand that old this old navy dress I'm wearing is not, you know, Vera Wang, right? And that's fine, and I like it. And yesteryear is a finely poorly made book that people are entertained by, and that's fine for them. But don't fucking tell me that I'm an idiot because you guys like a book that sucks.

Becca Tobin 1:00:24

Like so, now talk about both those books. Is yesteryear similarly to like how I feel about the D-list Bravo shows, where it's not good, but it's entertaining.

Traci Thomas 1:00:40

So okay, my issue with yesteryear is different than my issue with tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow in this regard. I think tomorrow and tomorrow tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Like get a fucking new title, bitch. I think that that book is well written. Like she's a good writer, and I think that it needed some editing, and I think it was manipulative, and I think it was made you want to read it, and people liked it, and they felt things, and that's fine. And like, congratulations to you. I think yesteryear is poorly constructed. I think it is like not well written in the sense like the characters are not fleshed out. There's not a strong point of view. It's like her Christianity isn't defined. Like the era isn't defined, and there's a twist that people are like, well, that's why, but like, it's literally not why. But people, like, people do a lot of work to make it good, and so I don't like that because I like crap. You know, one of my favorite movies is Center Stage. Like,

Becca Tobin 1:01:34

right?

Traci Thomas 1:01:34

Like, I like, I like, but like, Jody Sawyer is Jody Sawyer from start to finish. You're not like all of a sudden Jody Sawyer has her in her tap shoes, right? She goes to the hip hop class and she's very stiff. She's learning how to get loose, like it's part of the storyline in this book. It's like the twist is like, oh, I don't want to say anything, I don't want to spoil it for you, people, but the twist is fucking stupid, and then it negates like half the book, and also I don't know, and I think the criticism is weak. It's supposed to be like this sharp social commentary, but it's mostly just like influencers are actually working really hard, and these like mommy people have assistants, and like they're hypocrites. And I'm like, yeah,

Becca Tobin 1:02:15

yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:02:16

it's a job.

Becca Tobin 1:02:17

Well, I have to admit that I started tomorrow, tomorrow, and tomorrow, and I didn't finish it.

Traci Thomas 1:02:23

You did it. You and I have similar taste. You'll read a few. You'll read fluffier things than me, but it's very rare that you love something that I hate.

Becca Tobin 1:02:31

It's true. It's true. Well, that is flattering because you're. I do respect your taste a lot, but you also give me a lot of recommendations. Like everything you've ever told me to read. I have. You've nailed it. So when I do those things on Instagram, where like telling me what to read, the garbage that I get, I know I just need to text you because I just it's it's crazy the things that people say. Okay, if in this in this snapshot moment of your life, you write a memoir. What is the title of the memoir?

Traci Thomas 1:03:02

Rachel asked me this.

Becca Tobin 1:03:03

God damn it, Rachel! Well, let's work through it.

Traci Thomas 1:03:06

Well, I just gave her I gave her a mantra. That my answer was you remember Victor self from Flywheel? Yeah, yeah. Remember his mantra was, "Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything. And that was like that was like sort of the mantra that's been carrying me through my life, basically, ever since I met Victor, and it's something that I say all the time. Whether it's like jumping off a high diving board or like going through a tantrum with my child, like it's like anything that happens, I'm just like, I can do it. I can do it. Whether I'm like running on the treadmill and want to quit, like so, that's what I told her. But I don't know if I have a good title. I mean,

Becca Tobin 1:03:43

I wish I had thought of one before, and I could pitch you some ideas.

Traci Thomas 1:03:47

I don't know. It would probably be something like, "Hey, everybody, look at me-a memoir, or like, I know I'm annoying, but hey

Becca Tobin 1:03:56

what about Traci and the birthday month?

Traci Thomas 1:04:00

Happy birthday year! A memoir by Traci Thomas. Oh wow! I don't know. The Loud Friend by Traci Thomas.

Becca Tobin 1:04:11

You're so dumb. You're so dumb.

Traci Thomas 1:04:13

That could be it. You're so dumb by Traci Thomas.

Becca Tobin 1:04:15

But you're not so dumb. Okay. Well, I hope that Rachel didn't ask this, and if she did, I quit.

Traci Thomas 1:04:23

Okay.

Becca Tobin 1:04:26

Biggest regret of the last decade.

Traci Thomas 1:04:30

Ooh, it's not like a specific regret, but it's sort of like a broad regret. It mostly has to do with like my inability to. This is going to be vulnerable, I guess, my nightmare. My inability to like believe in myself. Sometimes I feel like sometimes other people will do things where I'm like, I could have fucking done that. Why didn't I try to do that? Why didn't I think to do that? And sometimes it can be like a really small thing. Like I see like a reel is. Like trending, and I'm like, oh, I should like make a reel, and then I'm like, ugh, I don't want to make a reel. But sometimes it's like pitching myself for bigger opportunities, or like, I think in the beginning of the show, I was like really nervous about money, and I like was too scared to like invest in the show, and like hire a this and that, or like whatever. And so I sometimes regret that I didn't like kind of put more stock into this in the beginning, and even still now, like I'm always really like I don't know, can I do that? I shouldn't do that. So I think that I think that would probably be like professionally some regrets.

Becca Tobin 1:05:36

Well, that's interesting because I do think that we share that, like we both have a little hutzpah, but we also have a lot of self awareness, and so we don't want to be the delusional people running around thinking that we can do all these things and have everybody behind our backs talk shit about how we are so

Traci Thomas 1:05:54

yeah because we talk shit about people behind their backs

Becca Tobin 1:05:56

exactly, and I know this is a poison of my own, right? Like it's just if I wasn't such a shit talker, I probably wouldn't have any fear about being one of those delusional people because I wouldn't know that people out there like us existed and were mean and made fun of you. So this is all coming back to us being dicks. But I will say, I don't. It was totally. It was not a conscious thing, but I did notice, and I only just turned 40 in January, and I'm sorry, I'm bringing this. I'm making all this all about me, but I have embodied a, I guess, a higher belief, a stronger belief in myself. I'm less, I'm doubting myself less, and I'm actually doing a little bit more balls to the walls.

Traci Thomas 1:06:43

Okay,

Becca Tobin 1:06:44

in a way that I never could do or would do before.

Traci Thomas 1:06:48

Okay, this is encouraging.

Becca Tobin 1:06:49

It's like, what do I have to lose? I look back and I'm thinking, if I had done that thing or put myself out there for that thing, what did I have to lose except for losers talking shit about me? Nothing, you know,

Traci Thomas 1:06:59

If you had gotten it or whatever, then they would have been talking shit, and you would have been like, "Yeah, bitch, but suck it. I feel like I just don't have the like, why not me mentality. Like I'm like, I could give you 20 reasons why not me. I could also give you 20 reasons why not the person who got it or who did it or whatever. That's my thing because I'm like I'm too much of a critic for myself and for everyone else, that I could argue in and out of anything, I could convince myself why I should be the president and also why I shouldn't be the president. Like I feel like I could lay it out both ways, and it just depends. And some days I convince myself in, and some days I convince myself out.

Becca Tobin 1:07:35

I get that very. I feel that very deeply, but I think you can still have that awareness, but also, like you just said, you're like I also look at those other people and think, "Why you?

Traci Thomas 1:07:48

Yeah.

Becca Tobin 1:07:49

So if the people that are unqualified or suck or are lame are getting these things, you could be like, "Cool, I'm gonna go too, because I could suck, and you're you suck, and I suck.

Traci Thomas 1:07:59

Yeah, I definitely want it, but I suck at least as much as you suck. That's what I always tell people when they like underestimate me, or like I say in my brain, I'm always like, well, or when someone says something to me and they, it's like they're talking down to me, like they think I'm stupid. I go, well, listen, can you just accept that I'm at least as dumb as you? Like, if you understand it, I fucking get it. Okay, I I might not be the smartest person in the world, but like I'm as smart as you, or I'm as dumb as you. Okay, just give me the. If you get it, I get it. Unless it's like you know my friend Chanda, who's like a literal astrophysicist. In which case, I'm like I don't fucking get it.

Becca Tobin 1:08:34

But that's only in so few categories that you don't get it. But you're right. Yes, if you get it, I get it. Okay, as far as moving forward with the decade,

Traci Thomas 1:08:44

okay.

Becca Tobin 1:08:44

Do you have any bucket list?

Traci Thomas 1:08:47

Rachel asked this too. You're at the same school of journalism.

Becca Tobin 1:08:52

Yes, it's called basic bitch journalism.

Traci Thomas 1:08:58

I will tell you a different thing on my bucket list that I didn't tell her. How about? Well, one of my bucket list things that you and I talked about a long time ago that I have kept and held onto. It'll be in our 50s. Is when our kids go to school, we're getting an apartment together in New York City so we can go see shows.

Becca Tobin 1:09:15

Gajillion percent. We're getting a little, it's happening.

Traci Thomas 1:09:17

A cutie little one bedroom. We're gonna put our little beds side by side, and we're gonna lay in bed like and just talk to each other and chit chat, and it's gonna be like where your apartment was in New York when you had that huge purple chair that you got from the flea market or whatever. When you were dating Colin, we used to go across the street and get the stevia pineapple or Splenda pineapple cocktail from that bar. Do you remember? It was like in that big pitcher, and it was like vodka and pineapple, but it was like sweetened with Splenda because this was when like Splenda was like the thing, and we used to really love it.

Becca Tobin 1:09:55

Was it when you walked out of that midtown apartment? Was it directly across the street?

Traci Thomas 1:09:59

Yes. Yes.

Becca Tobin 1:10:00

I know exactly what you're talking about,

Traci Thomas 1:10:01

and it was just like pineapple alcohol juice with Splenda, and we loved it.

Becca Tobin 1:10:07

This is important. This is why it's important to keep friends that you've had for so long because you are like my memory keeper. I forgot about that chair entirely, and it was almost my whole personality for.

Traci Thomas 1:10:19

Well you brought it to LA. When you lived in our apartment in L.A. it was like taking up half the room before you found your own apartment. And then you like spray painted it like gold. You like changed the color.

Becca Tobin 1:10:31

Oh wow! It was lime green, but then I spray painted it gold. But it was always the purple croc.

Traci Thomas 1:10:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Becca Tobin 1:10:40

Oh my gosh! Okay, so that's your bucket list. Our apartment in New York.

Traci Thomas 1:10:45

Yeah,

Becca Tobin 1:10:45

I can't wait.

Traci Thomas 1:10:46

I can't wait.

Becca Tobin 1:10:46

It's gonna be real, real babe pad.

Traci Thomas 1:10:49

I know, no boys allowed, including our children.

Becca Tobin 1:10:52

No, definitely not those boys. No, no boys that I have to take care of. I don't want to take care.

Traci Thomas 1:10:58

Only hot boyfriends.

Becca Tobin 1:11:00

Only hot side pieces. Only hot side pieces. Okay, the final thing is this is cheesy, and you might have to get vulnerable. But I'm sure Rachel already asked you this.

Traci Thomas 1:11:12

Okay,

Becca Tobin 1:11:13

what would you say to little Traci?

Traci Thomas 1:11:15

She didn't ask this.

Becca Tobin 1:11:17

Yes. Okay, little Traci in the Bay Area, she's like 10, and you pay her a visit, like like the ghost of Christmas future or whatever. And what do you tell her that you're really excited? What are you so excited to tell her? You guys get to do, and what's some good advice that you want her to have?

Traci Thomas 1:11:45

Okay, I have a few things. Okay, one, I would say we talked to the vice president of the United States on a podcast about books that we made up, which means nothing to you, but it's cool that we talked to the vice president, but also we talk to Ginger Spice. Okay, I need you to understand that like we are slamming our bodies down and we are winding them all around. So that's the first thing I would say. Another thing I would say is like along the lines of you probably should shut up a little bit in school, but also don't really shut up because, like, you're gonna talk for the rest of your life, and it's gonna be the only thing that earns you any money in your life. Whether it's being a spin teacher or an actor or whatever, a podcaster, your big mouth is your only money maker. And then I think the last thing I would say is excitedly. excitedly the people come around on cats. You were right; it's a fantastic musical.

Becca Tobin 1:12:50

I hate you.

Traci Thomas 1:12:51

It's true. I'm the only person who liked cats six years ago. Okay, in the whole country, it was just me liking cats alone by myself, listening to Mungo, Jerry, and Rumpleteezer. When I went to see it, I went with Sam Pinkleton and Chris Ford and Sam's husband Andrew. Mungo Jerry and Rumpletez are are an extra.

Becca Tobin 1:13:13

you're so weird. Okay,

Traci Thomas 1:13:14

I was sitting with them. I was sitting with Sam. It's like Tony voting season. Chris and Andrew are in the balcony. I'm sitting down low with Sam. He's like, "I I want to sit next to you. I want to see you see the show because he knows I love it. And we're in the opening number, and they're like, "Political cats, whatever. And Sam just turns to me, goes, "You really do know every word. And I just look at him. I said, "Do I do you think I'm a liar? It's like I know every word.

Becca Tobin 1:13:38

See, this is your now. This is your yesteryear.

Traci Thomas 1:13:41

This is my yesteryear

Becca Tobin 1:13:44

because I am trying so hard to see. I mean, I hated that show so much. I would sometimes fall asleep on the stage, take a little cat nap (pun intended) during those long, weird fucking songs that we all

Traci Thomas 1:13:59

the weirdest worst songs from the original are the best songs in the revival. Like Gus the Theater Cat is phenomenal. Skimble Shanks the Railway Cat unmatched. The worst numbers are like Mistofolees. It's crazy. It's crazy.

Becca Tobin 1:14:12

Well Mistofolees was like the sexiest number.

Traci Thomas 1:14:15

I know. Now it's not.

Becca Tobin 1:14:16

It could have been because it was the only straight dude who played it. That might have been why I felt

Traci Thomas 1:14:20

was that no was that Rum Tum Tugger,

Becca Tobin 1:14:23

no it was Mistofoles was in our version a straight man who actually dated Emily Loftus for a long time

Traci Thomas 1:14:31

Oh my god was she in that show

Becca Tobin 1:14:33

no but that's how I met her was this is real real inside baseball inside theater was through doing the show with her boyfriend, but he was mr. Mistofolees, and it was quite sexual. The performance,

Traci Thomas 1:14:47

cats, layers, babe, all sorts of cats, political cats, majestical cats, metaphorical cats, categorical cats.

Becca Tobin 1:14:58

This is by far the most off-brand thing about you by far.

Traci Thomas 1:15:02

I like the dumbest shit, and you know that's true.

Becca Tobin 1:15:04

I know, I know, but you always shock me. Well, Traci, I love you so much.

Traci Thomas 1:15:11

I love you so much.

Becca Tobin 1:15:12

I cannot believe that we've known each other for over 20 years, 20-two years,

Becca Tobin 1:15:19

and we both have really landed on our feet, shall we say? Pun intended. I love you.

Traci Thomas 1:15:28

I love you. I love you. I love you. Thank you. Last up, you all know him. You all love him. He is one of my absolute favorite authors and favorite humans. Someone that I have met through this podcast, whose work has meant so much to me, and whose friendship has meant even more. That's right, I am talking about Kiese Laymon, author of Heavy, friend of the show, cultural commentator, all-around stand-up dude, Kiese Laymon.

Kiese Laymon 1:15:57

Hey y'all, how are you doing? Can I start?

Traci Thomas 1:15:59

It's starting. It started.

Kiese Laymon 1:16:01

Oh my goodness! Hey, what up, y'all? The countdown got me shook. I'm so happy to be here. Listen, I thought a lot about how to ask Traci questions that one I really want to know answers to. Two, that I think y'all would really want to know answers to. And so you had to comb through the stacks, like you know, like the stacks to see what Traci does well, what she does, but also what makes Traci kind of like uncomfortable. So I wanted to get a lot of those questions in.

Traci Thomas 1:16:28

Oh my god!

Kiese Laymon 1:16:28

So I don't know if I'm gonna do it or not. But what I want to talk about

Traci Thomas 1:16:31

I'm nervous. I'm like literally blushing and sweating at the same time.

Kiese Laymon 1:16:35

this is the problem with talk. You just hype it. But I want to like live in that space, you encourage like writers and and and creators to make on your show of like you know I'm most interested when people start talking about what they like and love and obviously what they fucking hate. But I want to do it a different way.

Traci Thomas 1:16:53

Okay,

Kiese Laymon 1:16:54

I want to start with like the perfect morning for you in July. July, perfect morning, perfect like what time are you waking up? I have I have all my questions. What time are you waking up? What are you doing as perfect? What's the perfect morning for Traci?

Traci Thomas 1:17:14

Is this a perfect morning that I'm creating out of thin air, or a perfect version of a morning that I would actually have?

Kiese Laymon 1:17:21

This is a perfect version of the morning you're creating out of thin air. Okay, like

Traci Thomas 1:17:26

okay,

Kiese Laymon 1:17:26

this is this is this is completely ideal. Like you like you're not bound by anything.

Traci Thomas 1:17:32

Okay, I am on vacation.

Kiese Laymon 1:17:34

Where?

Traci Thomas 1:17:35

Well, just important that I'm in a nice hotel. That's what the real. That's what's important. I'm in a nice hotel with like very comfy cold sheets, a nice big blankie, actual blackout shades that work with a good robe, a good robe.

Kiese Laymon 1:17:52

Ooh,

Traci Thomas 1:17:52

I love a robe.

Kiese Laymon 1:17:53

What's a good robe though for you? The

Traci Thomas 1:17:54

The sleeves are long enough because I have long arms. I hate when the sleeves are short. Not too heavy, but I do like that material. That's sort of like smooth, like not like a waffle print. Personally, but not like full terry cloth. It's like that, like microfibery. I don't know. It's like smooth. I don't know. I don't know. And then I wake up, and there is a tea situation in the hotel room. Whether that means I they have like a kettle and I can just make my own hot water. I can even have my own tea bags. I have a little half and half in the fridge. Not the little plastic cups, but like I have like a bottle of half and half, so I can like have good half and half and some sugar. Big windows. Let's say we're overlooking maybe the beach or like beautiful mountain, something like nice that I can look at, but I don't actually have to go be outside in would be great. Though I do like a balcony, and then I can read for a while. Obviously, my kids are not there. I wake up on my own. Nobody saying "mommy, mommy, and then I read for a while, and then maybe I put on like maybe I take a shower because it's my perfect day, so I'm not in a rush. Take a shower. I put on like a dress, like a summer dress. I love a summer dress. And then I like go out. Let's say we're in like Paris, and I go out into town and have my little book, my little tote bag, and my water bottle is all full. And I go and I have more tea and like a delicious croissant situation. Then I walk around some more, and then I get ice cream in the morning because it's my perfect day. How's that? Oh, and it's not too hot, but it's not cold. I don't like to be cold, but I also don't want to be too hot because I sweat quickly. So I would like it to be like 72 degrees. Feels perfect.

Kiese Laymon 1:17:55

Okay, that answer gives me a great foundation for everything I want to ask. Okay, so you know, in that perfect day, you're still spending time alone with books.

Traci Thomas 1:17:55

Yes.

Kiese Laymon 1:17:55

Why?

Traci Thomas 1:17:55

Because I so rarely get to because my kids are so annoying.

Kiese Laymon 1:17:55

That's a great point.

Traci Thomas 1:19:18

It's just very hard for me now. I used to always wake up and read, but now I usually have things you have to make lunch and pack a backpack and fill in the water bottles. So the idea that I could just like wake up and like read a little bit and like open my windows and read and then like go out into the world and read, start my day reading-that sounds really good to me.

Kiese Laymon 1:20:22

And you know, one of the reasons I wanted to start, like, how wondering how you would start the day. I mean, I thought we would we would get to reading, but you know, I I think a lot of us have questions about how much you love the work. We get to see you. You know, we we see we see the production of it, right? Like it appears that we we're all in your life and we're right next to you, so I think whatever you do, you do a great job of making us appear that like you really love it. But the reading of the books, the reading, the listening, the the preparation. What is the most enjoyable part of that? If it's a bad book, if it's a bad book,

Traci Thomas 1:20:59

if the book is actually bad and they're they're a guest on the show, and I really don't like the book. Is that what you're saying?

Kiese Laymon 1:21:04

Yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:21:06

That's not so enjoyable.

Kiese Laymon 1:21:08

Okay, sorry.

Traci Thomas 1:21:09

It's okay. No, I just I like I like reading. I like to read. I don't. I despite what everyone might think about me, and maybe this is my own fault for letting people think this or or telling people that this is true. I don't like to dislike things. Like I don't ever want to read a book or go into something being like I'm gonna hate this or like I hate this. For the most part, if I don't like something, I don't finish it. Usually, if I'm reading a book for the show and I don't really like it, there is a reason why I still want to have the guest on, so maybe they're like an interesting person. Maybe they're a person that I admire. Maybe the topic I'm very interested in, but I don't think the book is particularly good. So in those cases, like it's it's an exercise in coming up with questions and like trying to figure out how can I frame this in a proper way. But I don't. That's not nearly as fun for me, or as enjoyable for me, as like loving a book and getting to like talk to the author about that. That is fun,

Kiese Laymon 1:22:09

absolutely.

Traci Thomas 1:22:09

Yeah,

Kiese Laymon 1:22:10

and and you know you you literally people always talk about taste making. Like you obviously like made yourself into a tastemaker for yourself and like us, but we were talking off this one time, and we were talking about how we were talking about a particular genre, like which I write in, and like I think one of us was like, "Yo, it's rough out there for that genre right now. And I think both of us agreed it's rough out there, not just in terms of people's desire, but it just appeared that like there weren't a lot of dope memoirs, for example, right? And then one of the questions I think you posed, like, and I just started thinking about was like, I wonder how much of like our writerly, a readerly taste is is shaped by culture, right? It's shaped by what's happening in the world, and so I wonder have you thought of any more about that question, particularly around memoir? I'm kind of putting you on the spot, and and like whether or not it's the world that has influenced what appears to be sort of you know people appear to be less interested in general in like memoir unless it's like the celebrity one that everybody sort of fucks with a little bit. But like, what is it for you, if if anything, that like makes you makes your taste change over time because I remember there was one point when you were just like yeah like I would say memoir and then there was definitely a point you're like yo memoirs ain't really hitting right now yeah

Traci Thomas 1:23:28

I'm out on memoir still it's been like a year and a half or two years

Kiese Laymon 1:23:32

Tell me what you think it is

Traci Thomas 1:23:33

I think it's a few things okay I think part of it is your fault in the sense that you wrote a memoir that was so good and a lot of people have tried to copy you and are not. Either they they don't have the chops to do it, or or they don't have the life story to tell. Like I think part of what you did is that you took your life and made it into art in a way that I think sometimes people write memoir and they think that memoir is supposed to be reported nonfiction, and to me, it's just not. To me, memoir is a form of art. It's like, it's like I get. I don't know. This is going to sound kind of crazy. Maybe I don't. This isn't a great analogy, but like to me, in some ways, memoir is ballet. Like it's like you have to be like really highly trained. You have to be really disciplined, and I'm not talking about celebrity memoir because I think celebrity memoir, we as readers generally give celebrity memoirists a lot of grace, and also they're not technically writing memoir. They're technically writing like autobiography hybrid generally because memoir is supposed to be about one moment or time or event, or it could be like about a theme in your life, but it's not supposed to be like I was born and then last night I finished writing this book. Like it's supposed to be like this is about the time I was in prison. This is. About the time my mother died. This is about and like you can obviously branch out and tell more of your life story, but it's like a stylized art form that is sort of heightened in the way that ballet is heightened. Whereas like whereas like jazz dance is almost like anybody thinks they could do a jazz dance. Like give me a a pot of a rat. Like it's not not not everybody's like I can put on pointe shoes. Do you know what I mean?

Kiese Laymon 1:25:22

yeah, I do.

Traci Thomas 1:25:23

Ballet is like a higher level of technique and and rigor, and I think that a lot of people thinks like, oh, I've lived a life, and everyone has a book in them, and so therefore my book about my life is the book that I have to offer. And I think that is true that people write those books, but I don't like those books. So that's one part, but then the other part is I do feel like right now I am turned off by individual people stories, individual. Like I just don't think anything is one person. I think everything is all of us, and so a lot of memoir feels so navel gazy and so like this is my thing, and can you believe this? And I'm like, yeah, babe, I can believe this. I've read about this story 50 other times. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that bad things happened to you. I'm sorry that your father was abusive, or you were bullied, or racism. But like, you are not the only person to have lived this life and to sort of present it in that way is a huge turnoff for me,

Kiese Laymon 1:26:25

Right. And that's the artful part, right?

Traci Thomas 1:26:27

That's the artful part.

Traci Thomas 1:26:29

But everybody thinks they can do it, and they just they can't.

Kiese Laymon 1:26:33

And if we're so, if we're in that idyllic morning right now, memoir probably wouldn't be what you're reading.

Traci Thomas 1:26:39

Not close.

Kiese Laymon 1:26:40

So, so we're we're we're out. We're we're moving in that idea like morning slash day, and I want to get to evening. Are you watching television? This is like you don't have to, but like, and ideally, are you watching? Well, and what time do you start?

Traci Thomas 1:26:54

So I have to come back to America because I need to be in the correct time zone, and I can't do the transfer to Paris. So I'm back. I'm back in California. Okay. I am watching sports if it's on. So right now I am living this fucking amazing life where there's World Cup.

Kiese Laymon 1:27:12

Yes.

Traci Thomas 1:27:13

There is Wimbledon as we're recording. There is baseball at night.

Kiese Laymon 1:27:18

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:27:19

Um. So I, you know, yesterday's match started at nine a.m. California time, so I dropped my kids at camp, and I came home, and I had some work to do in front of the computer. So I had the computer, and then I have the game on behind me, and I'm doing both things. Last night there was a match that happened earlier in the day that I didn't get to finish, so I saved it to watch the extra time and the penalty kicks, and I had my book in front of me. But I ended up doing computer work because I was actually watching the match. So that's the TV that I've been turning on the most is sports. I really have not watched a scripted show in probably a long time. I don't.

Kiese Laymon 1:27:58

What about reality, though?

Traci Thomas 1:27:59

Sometimes I watch Traitors this year. I really have not watched a lot of TV this year. I got to be honest. I've been really on my sports shit this year. I love it because also we had Olympics earlier this year. Like it's been a big sports year.

Kiese Laymon 1:28:12

Yeah, this is a setup for my for like my my

Traci Thomas 1:28:16

You were hoping I would get you to sports?

Kiese Laymon 1:28:18

I when I was at wondering wondering what your perfect day was. I wondered. I was like, I wonder if she's gonna watch sports. But yeah, okay. Are you watching films at all? Like in that perfect day, are you gonna spend like just two hours of time?

Traci Thomas 1:28:33

No, I'm probably not gonna watch your film.

Kiese Laymon 1:28:35

So in your perfect day, we got you doing some reading.

Traci Thomas 1:28:39

Yeah,

Kiese Laymon 1:28:39

we got you watching some sports.

Traci Thomas 1:28:41

Well, okay. In my perfect day, this is my ideal day, and it's in July. This July, July 2026

Kiese Laymon 1:28:48

July, yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:28:49

Or any July, or this July, because it's going to change my. Okay, in any given July, then I'm also probably trying to go to a baseball game. instead of watching a sporting event on TV, I would love to go to the ballpark. If it was this July, I would have a lot of money and I would go to a World Cup match. But since it's just a general July, it'd be a baseball game.

Kiese Laymon 1:29:10

Do you think there was ever a time in your life, like from the time you can remember going to see movies till now, when like the ideal thing would have been like, oh, I want to really go to a movie with by myself or with some money in my family.

Traci Thomas 1:29:21

Yeah, I like the movies. I like I like movies, but I would rather be at the ballpark. I don't know outside and like hot dogs and loud and cheering and baseball. Like you can't talk to people during a movie.

Kiese Laymon 1:29:34

Yeah, I like going to a movie,

Traci Thomas 1:29:36

but I don't know. My brain is doing work at a movie. Like I'm thinking about lighting and costume and acting and story. I'm trying to figure everything out, and I'm trying to decide why would that director do that. What an interesting shot! Oh, that's a weird. Like, it's not. I don't. I'm not able to shut off that part of my brain generally, and I can during sports.

Traci Thomas
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Ep. 433 A Con Man Caper with Pamela Colloff