Ep. 445 What’s a Shadow Daddy? with Jess Lee

Written By Traci Thomas

Today on The Stacks, we’re joined by Jess Lee, DEI consultant, friend of the pod, and the reader behind the Instagram, Literary Intersections. We chat about the popularity of romantasy, the meaning of tropes players like Shadow Daddies and fae, and why Jess thinks the genre is making people dumber.

Our book club pick for October is Last Chance Live! by Helena Haywoode Henry. We will discuss the book with Jess Lee on Wednesday, October 28th.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Jess Lee 0:00

I just think that there is an assumption that romance is like cliche and flighty and smut and blah blah blah blah. And sure, there are some pieces that are that right, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. But I, whenever I push back, there's so many comments that I get that are like Brock reads real books, and I'm like, well, what do you mean by that? Right. And I think that's bullshit.

Traci Thomas 0:30

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and today we are joined by book influencer and friend of the podcast Jess Lee. You might know her as the reader behind the Instagram account of Literary Intersections, which she uses to celebrate and elevate books by underrepresented authors. On this episode, we talk about Jess's love of romance, what the romanticy genre even is, and what romance novel she would like Barack Obama to read. Our book club pick for October is Last Chance Live by Helena Haywood Henry. Jess will be back with us on Wednesday, october 28, to discuss this novel. If you like this podcast and want more bookish content and community, please consider joining us over on Patreon and Substack. On Patreon, you can join the Stacks pack for access to community conversations, virtual book clubs, and bonus episodes. And on Substack, you can subscribe to my newsletter. You get that exclusive bonus episode plus my hot takes on literary gossip, pop culture, news, and sports. Your support allows me to bring the stacks to you and everyone else free every single week. So if you love listening, join the stacks pack at Patreon.com/slash the stacks and subscribe to my newsletter unstacked at tracy thomas.substack.com. Now. it's time for my conversation with Jess Lee. All right, everybody! I'm so excited. I get to talk to one of my favorite readers, one of my friends. She and I read similarly and also very differently, and so I'm excited to bring you a genre girly, part part-time genre girly, full-time reader girly. I am here today with my friend Jess Lee. Jess, welcome to the stacks.

Jess Lee 2:13

I am actually so excited.

Traci Thomas 2:16

I am so excited. Why are you saying actually?

Jess Lee 2:20

I'm. I'm I'm not fake excited. I'm really excited,

Traci Thomas 2:24

literally. Okay, Jess. People might not know you. Will you just give the people at home? I mean, ask everybody this, even if it's like fucking Kamala Harris. So you're not special. Everybody has to answer this question. What's sort of your story with books? What's your background with books? How did you become a professional reader? Talk to me.

Jess Lee 2:44

Yeah, yeah. So I, I always say that I started reading stealing my mom's romances when I was like 11 or 12, which is probably pretty accurate. So I, you know, read as a middle grader and really just was obsessed with it. And my mom is a huge reader. And when I graduated to romances, arguably a little too early, but I'm completely normal. I really was just stealing my mom's romances and all of her like, you know, mass market paperback historicals, and that in her like romantic suspense, and that's really what I grew up on. Some pros and cons to that, which I'm assuming we'll get into, but that fostered my love of the romance genre, and I've been reading it for you know at this point 26 years.

Traci Thomas 3:31

Did your momknow? Did your mom know that you were reading her romance novels? Slash, when did she find out, and what was her reaction?

Jess Lee 3:38

Yeah, so she knew probably a fish when I started reading Outlander, and I think I was like 15 or 16 at that point. And then she would like give them to me, right? So like I have in you know in my tote of books, which are all in my other room as we redo my office, a lot of my mom's old romance books that I stole and brought to college. And every time she comes to visit, she's like, "Can I have that back? And I'm like, "It's mine now. No, you can't have it back. And then, yeah, I mean, I think like so many people, I would just read and talk about and shove my books at so many of my friends and family. And then when I was on Bookstagram prior to the pandemic, I was like, "This is pretty cool, but I don't think I could ever do it. And then during the pandemic, I was reading an absurd amount, and I was like, you know, why don't I start a bookstagram? And so I started in April. I think it was April 2020 and May 2020, and have been doing it ever since. It's definitely changed.

Traci Thomas 4:37

I feel like you are. I feel like you predate the pandemic.

Jess Lee 4:41

No, I know. No

Traci Thomas 4:43

Interesting.

Jess Lee 4:43

It was like very shortly thereafter, and I remember I was trying to decide probably in like you know late 2019, and I was just in like a really bad place with work, and I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to do it. And then the pandemic really pushed me over the edge, and I don't think I knew what it was. I was like, well, I just want to. Read and talk about it, and now being in it for the last six years, I think I still read and want to talk about it. But there's such like a fun, enjoyable community that I think I found, which has been great too.

Traci Thomas 5:11

Okay, here's my question about romance books. It's not even about romance books. I'm actually going more specific because I'm I feel like I used to be like I don't read romance, whatever. Now I read a little bit of romance, and now like I sort of know what I like, and like, to be fair, it's just not my favorite genre, which is fine. Like, but like, I read some, you know, like there's something I'm excited about. Whatever. I have a question about romantasy because you read romantasy. I have a lot of thoughts about romantasy. Okay, let's let's start because I've never had anyone on the show who is like a romantasy reader, and you are you. The thing about you, Jess, that I like respect so much is that you read so widely. Yeah, like you will read a romantasy book and then turn around and be like, "Here is this book on the history of the like the slave trade in 1805, and I'm like, "Wait, what? And then you're like, "Okay, and then there's this like crazy YA like thriller that I'm reading, and like here's this like queer polyamorous disabled romance, and like I'm just like wait, how is your brain doing that? So what I want to know about romantasy, where I want to start, because a lot of my listeners might have no clue, what is it, and why is it popular now? Has it always existed? Is it actually a new genre, or does it just have a new name?

Jess Lee 6:26

Yeah, that's so. I I'm gonna speak from my perspective. By no means am I the you know final voice in all things romance or romantasy.

Traci Thomas 6:35

For The Stacks listeners, you are. Yeah, this is it. We are probably not gonna do this again for a long time,

Jess Lee 6:41

so romantasy is not necessarily a new genre. It is essentially romance and fantasy mixed together, right? And it's that mushing of names that has become so popular to then become a trend for publishing to, I think, you know, capitalize on and for people to say, "Oh, romantasy, I know what that is, and I like it. The problem is, is that the subgenre within itself, I think, doesn't have so many restrictions around it in the way that people can feel 100% that what they're reading is a romantasy because there's so many different ideas of what that actually means. For me, romanticy is a more romance-forward fantasy book, right? And so you might have a fantasy that has romantic elements into it. Some might argue that something like Outlander is is a romance, a romantic fantasy, right? Where it has a very forward looking romance story that's extremely important. And if you take that out, you don't have a story at all. But the fantastical world building is is important and it's there, and obviously Outlander has the historical aspect to it. The problem is is how much is romance and how much is fantasy? When does it go from being romantasy to romantic fantasy to a fantasy romance? That is 100% dependent on each individual person.

Traci Thomas 7:57

I'm going to go throw up romanticy, romantic Fantasy, fantastic, fantastic, romance

Jess Lee 8:03

and the problem with that then is you see a book marketed as romanticy and you read it expecting it to be 80% romance, 20% fantasy, with a world building that's there but does not overtaking the page, and what you have is 5050, and then you are like, well, what the fuck? That's not what I wanted.

Traci Thomas 8:22

What's the difference between a romantic fantasy and fantasy romance?

Jess Lee 8:26

So a fantasy romance is going to be more fantasy heavy than romance, right? So there'll be a romantic element to it, but it's going to be significantly less.

Traci Thomas 8:36

So romantasy should be 5050, is it?

Jess Lee 8:38

Romantasy should be more romance than fantasy,

Traci Thomas 8:41

and then a romantic fantasy should be 50-50.

Jess Lee 8:44

Correct,

Traci Thomas 8:45

and a fantasy romance should be 80 fantasy 20 romance.

Jess Lee 8:48

Probably yes.

Traci Thomas 8:49

Okay, we need a romandystopia as well.

Jess Lee 8:54

Romandystopia. Well, so there is for sure. Romandystopia, I like your

Traci Thomas 8:58

How come we're not calling it that?

Jess Lee 8:59

going to be dystopian, right? That's gonna be your divergence. That's gonna be your Hunger Games. Those have romance in them. Yeah, but they're pushing dystopian over over romance.

Traci Thomas 9:07

Yeah, I feel like, but we need to call it romant dystopia.

Jess Lee 9:10

It probably will happen in the coming months. Would be my guess.

Traci Thomas 9:13

Okay, well, everybody, I'm trademarking that right the fuck now. Roman dystopia. Romanta dystopia.

Jess Lee 9:18

It sounds horrible. That sounds like you have lesions.

Traci Thomas 9:22

Well, romantasy also sounds insane. Okay, I remember the first time I heard romantasy, I was like, "This is so embarrassing to say out loud. Now I'm used to it, but it is embarrassing. Like the first time you hear it, you're like,

Jess Lee 9:34

"You're like, what is this?" It's insane, and I think there has been so. I was just having this conversation with my fantasy book club. There is so much, like an absurd amount of romantasy out there that's really fricking bad. And that's not to say that there's not really bad in every other genre, but I think we're seeing a pump out of romantasy where they use the same tropes. If I have to read a shadow daddy one more time, like get me off this plane.

Traci Thomas 9:59

What is a shadow daddy?

Jess Lee 10:01

a shadow daddy is a man main character who is most likely some kind of a fae, and he has shadow powers, and those shadow powers are then oftentimes used in some kind of sexual situation.

Traci Thomas 10:16

What's a shadow power?

Jess Lee 10:19

So a shadow power is going to be like they have magical powers, and their magical power comes out as like shadows. And those shadows might be able to kill people, but those shadows then also have fingers, and they can fingers

Traci Thomas 10:31

like a literal shadow, like Peter Pan, or a shadow like dark arts?

Jess Lee 10:35

like dark arts, like a swoopy shadow. Yeah, not like your body shadow.

Traci Thomas 10:40

Okay, I'm imagining someone who's got like a really powerful shadow that's like Peter Pan, but like on steroids. You know, like I lost my shadow. Like honestly, that's gonna exist. Yeah, I'm gonna write it as a romant dystopia. Roman dystopia.

Jess Lee 10:56

Roman dystopia. Yeah, I mean, so then you just have like the same. You're reading the same book. You're reading the same exact tropes, and it's nothing new and nothing exciting. And I think because there's been such a push towards this romanticy and because, quite frankly, publishers are marketing books as romanticy that shouldn't be marketed as a romantasy, you then get a lot of frustration. You get the same story. You get the same exact non unique tropes, and it becomes really boring, and that's how I felt the last few months, year in particular. I've been reading romantasy but I'm have been particularly trying to find things that are just more exciting because it feels very rote.

Traci Thomas 11:34

I got to tell you, Jess, those covers are so ugly to me.

Jess Lee 11:38

Ugly, so many of them are ugly.

Traci Thomas 11:40

They all look the same and are so butt ugly to me that every time I see one, I'm just like I can't do it. But I feel like I can't be a person who works in books and

Jess Lee 11:52

you have to read a romantasy

Traci Thomas 11:53

I feel like I have to read romantasy. So, what romantasy do I have to read? I do not want to be in a series because it might be a one or done situation for me, or else I need that first book to stand alone enough that I could be done. Okay, I cannot. I'm not committing my life. I also would maybe like something that's not over 500 pages. Like, are there any that are on the shorter side?

Jess Lee 12:15

Damn.

Traci Thomas 12:17

And also, like I, you know, Jess, I like with all my writing, fiction, nonfiction, everything, movies, everything. I do struggle with fantasy, so I need something that feels somewhat not too fucking just a bunch of fairies and dragons dicking each other around.

Jess Lee 12:35

Okay, so I'm gonna give you two options.

Traci Thomas 12:39

okay. I'm gonna try to read these.

Speaker 1 12:40

Okay, so first option is going to be our vicious oaths by Annie Davenport. So it's a one. Actually, maybe I do the blood trials for you. Honestly, either either of hers, our vicious oaths or the blood trials. Okay, the blood trials is more within like a militaristic world, so it feels a little bit more earthy. There's a lot of violence. It's really fun. The main character is like super unhinged in a really fun, like violent way, which I think is exciting. All of her characters are are black as well.

Traci Thomas 13:12

Okay.

Jess Lee 13:14

Our vicious oaths is also from Annie Davenport. It's a family.

Traci Thomas 13:17

I'm looking at the cover of the Blood Trials, and there's no people with like ears, so I like this already.

Jess Lee 13:24

No, there's no. I don't think anybody is elves. They've got like blood swords and shit. Like it's actually it's actually really fun, and they're very oaths.

Traci Thomas 13:31

Our Vicious Oaths has a eagle dragon and a crown.

Jess Lee 13:38

So our vicious oaths is about like warring, so they're fae, unfortunately, but they're black fae, which I think is a little bit different. So fae are fairies, right? But they're mythologically they're from Ireland, right? Like that's where fae came about. When you think about fae and druids and the Tua denan, right? Like all of that.

Traci Thomas 14:00

When you think about them

Unknown Speaker 14:01

I yeah, when I think about them, that's going to be Fae. Fae have since blown up into like this whole other world, and you can really kind of play with them depending on what you want. So there are these warring Fae factions, and it's like the princess in one, and the prince in the other, and they have to come together, of course, in an arranged marriage to try and fight back against the like really bad evil Fae because they've killed all of their friends and family. That one I really enjoyed because I think Annie Davenport is fun and she writes a lot. Like he's a shadow daddy, but there's like a little bit different of spin to it. And they're black. He has a grill, which like already I'm like okay, sold.

Traci Thomas 14:39

Okay, sign sign me up.

Jess Lee 14:40

Sign me up. Okay, the third one is white people, unfortunately, but it's called the Poison Daughter, and it is more of like a medieval type vibe. So there's not like it's only fantastical from the different magics that people in their family have. So the main character, she can poison people with her lips, so she can call up different types of poison on her lips, and then uses that to kill people, like kill her family's enemies.

Traci Thomas 15:09

This book is 672 pages.

Jess Lee 15:11

I was gonna say it's well, it's well more than 500.

Traci Thomas 15:15

Yeah, like even Marlon James isn't asking me to do that. Okay, like come on, have some respect for me.

Unknown Speaker 15:21

And it's actually too long as well. It's too long.

Traci Thomas 15:24

Okay, so I'm gonna not read that. The shortest one was the one with the swords. Was the first one. Our blood trials. I would do that trials. Okay, that's what I'm gonna do. Here's my question though: Why are people so into romantasy right now? What is it about the genre that you feel like is making it? Like, why do you read it?

Jess Lee 15:41

Okay, I have a couple thoughts. First, I think just in general, I think fantasy is exciting to read for many people, especially if you want to be transported to different worlds, right? Like, I think that's really fun, and I think that could be really fun for people, especially now who hate the world that they're living in currently for whatever reason that is, so I think that's the fantasy piece of it. I know the reason. I think the romance piece of it is like if you're if you want to feel happy, sometimes that's reading romance, right? Like you people are falling in love, they and you know that they're going to fall in love, and you know that they're going to be together at the end, and that stability can feel really nice, especially if you're in an in stable world or in stable life, right? So, putting those two together, I think that makes sense. You want to be in different outside worlds, and you want to see people fall in love. Yeah. With that being said, and this might be a tad controversial, and I'm like, I say this usually in like group chats and small group friends, I do think that romanticism in some ways, like really bad romantasy that people read over and over and over and over again, and is not giving them anything new, is the same tropes is making people dumber.

Traci Thomas 16:52

Okay,

Jess Lee 16:53

I really do, and I think that it is.

Traci Thomas 16:56

She said it, everybody, not me, because I know people are going to be like, Traci is being hard on romantasy No, I'm not, it's Jess. She's the romance lover. She's the expert. I'm just asking the questions.

Jess Lee 17:05

It's me, and I've been thinking about this a lot. I think that it doesn't if you are reading the same thing over and over again, and it's not giving you anything new or anything new to think about, and you don't have diverse voices, and you don't have different things that are challenging your brain, then your critical thinking is at an all-time low because you're just skimming through the pages, right? You're just reading something that makes you happy, which is great, but you can be made happy and also be challenged. And so I do think, in some ways, that ability to or that desire-and this could be said of other genres as well-but that desire to just like keep reading the same thing over and over and over again because you enjoy it and you love it is great, but I also think that it it could be not challenging people in the ways that reading should, and in my opinion is like the fun way to read. I also think that publishers are really pushing it right, and I think the more that they push it, the more people want it. And you've got the successes of like Fourth Wing and Akatar and all that shit, right? That people love, and then they just want to find that same joy in the same books.

Traci Thomas 18:10

I didn't think so. and I heard that the fairies don't even be fucking till not even the first book.

Jess Lee 18:20

No, they're not. They're not, and it's it was not good, and it was not written well. And like, I think sometimes there's this desire from publishers as well to push out romantasy quicker, quicker, quicker. So they're not being edited. So you have 615 pages books that should not be that long. The grammar is whack. It's all out of like it. It is using language that's very asynchronous, and it's like not enjoyable to read if you're trying to like soak into a text. And I do think that you can soak into romantasy, but some of the drivel that's out there now just stinks, and it's because people want to read the same thing over and over again.

Traci Thomas 18:58

It's okay. You're right. I don't think you're wrong about that at all. I mean, I think about this a lot with people who read a lot of genre that is formulaic in general, like mystery as well, or like thriller. Like it's this the the formula is sometimes it's like because it because it exists, it allows your brain to turn off in a certain way,

Jess Lee 19:19

and sometimes that's nice.

Traci Thomas 19:21

Sometimes it's nice, but if that's

Jess Lee 19:22

but not all the time,

Traci Thomas 19:23

yeah, yeah. And then it then that's like where you get people who then go read like a book like Kin, and they're like, "Not enough happened in Kin. Yeah, and I'm like, "Well, that's because you've been reading like Slasher Slayer Motherfucker. Like ah, it's like yeah, okay. Well, I don't know. It's not. It's Kin. It's literal. Like it's literary fiction. It's just different, and I think like you know whatever. I'm not the biggest literary fiction fan, so I'm not trying to act like literary fiction is better. But I do think that when you are so accustomed to the ebbs and flows of a certain kind of book, it allows you to turn off your brain in a lot.

Jess Lee 19:54

Yes, yes. And I think that's why I read across so many genres, like. Sometimes I'm like, "Hey, work sucks. I'm exhausted. I just want to take a little bit of a break. So let me either reread something that's a tried and true that's just going to make me happy, or let me reread something that I know is going to be really formulaic, and I'm going to know every single point that's happened, and nothing's going to surprise me. And then sometimes I'm like, "No, I need to like, I want to really like dig into this, and I think that is the way of that's the way that I found a love of reading by being able to spread the different things that I read and help my brain both turn off and work really hard. And I think that's fun.

Traci Thomas 20:33

So this month I came to you and I said nothing too scary, obviously, but like let's do something like maybe like thrillery Halloween adjacent, and I knew that I could send that to you because I know that you read everything. But is there anything that you don't read? Are there any genres you're just like, no, it's not for me, or subgenres?

Jess Lee 20:58

I don't love reading memoirs, and it could just be that I haven't found the right one, and I'm not.

Traci Thomas 21:03

There's a lot of bad memoirs out there right now. A lot of bad ones,

Jess Lee 21:07

and I think I just don't like. In some ways, I don't really want to dig deep into some like one person's individual life. I do like nonfiction, but I don't read it super often, and I tend to like it on audio. I think a lot more than anything. I don't love just a plain mystery. I'd prefer a thriller that's like a little scary. I think the formulaic mystery like is not enjoyable to me. That's pretty much it.

Traci Thomas 21:33

Do you do you consider like have you read Attica Locke?

Jess Lee 21:37

No, I haven't. On my list, though,

Traci Thomas 21:39

I don't. I'm trying to decide if I if you if you think like if you would think Bluebird Bluebird is a thriller or mystery. I I don't read a lot of either of those things, though I do like a thriller. Like I'm entertained by that. I like plot, but for some reason a mystery I don't feel like I necessarily like.

Jess Lee 21:56

Yeah, I don't. I don't think I don't know that either.

Traci Thomas 21:58

They told someone tried to explain the difference. Like a thriller is like the main character is in peril, and a mystery, the main character is trying to solve someone else's peril. Yeah, but I don't think I've ever just read a straight up mystery where it's like, oh, I'm here to figure this out. Because like I'm thinking like Devil in a Blue Dress reread, but they were also sort of after him.

Jess Lee 22:19

Right, it was more thrillery.

Traci Thomas 22:20

Yeah, I feel like, yeah.

Jess Lee 22:22

I read Agatha Christie like way back in the day because I get stole from my mom, and I was like, these are not for me. And I've not really, I've not gone back to it. I think every single type of mystery type, I've, I've leaned more towards a thriller, yeah, because I think I like when that main character, like I like the tension, I like the the climax that it ultimately builds to. I like feeling like someone is in danger. Like that's a little bit more exciting to me. Mystery feels like it leans more towards cozy, and there's very few cozy things that I'll read. Cozy cozy romance, cozy fantasy. That's pretty much it.

Traci Thomas 22:58

What's cozy romance? That's like a closed door situation, or is it just like they they're fucking in front of a fireplace?

Jess Lee 23:05

Could be all of the above. I think cozy romance is giving lower stakes, right? So in romance, sometimes you'll have like higher stakes where, like you know, I mean, some of it might be crazy, where it's like your you started fucking your ex boyfriend's dad, right? Like those stakes are pretty high.

Traci Thomas 23:25

Okay, okay.

Jess Lee 23:26

But so cozy doesn't have like it's like it feels warm. Yeah, and like there's no big like third act breakup. There's no big like miscommunication trope. Like everybody, it's just like cozy and it feels kind of warm. I think cozy fantasy is is more my jam. Where it's got it doesn't have like a lot of the murder, a lot of the killing. Like sometimes I just kind of want that.

Traci Thomas 23:53

Oh my god! I don't think I like anything cozy. Yeah, I don't think you would. That doesn't feel like for you. No, no. I might watch a cozy TV show. I don't. I do. I don't. I'm like trying to think. I'm like I don't even like British British bake show is cozy. Great maybe like, but I don't watch that.

Jess Lee 24:09

Like, is Ted Lasso cozy? Maybe

Traci Thomas 24:11

I stopped Ted Lasso after a little bit, and I like soccer. I I like all of my entertainment to have high stakes. That is like what I go to entertainment for. Um, I do think there are some memoirs for you. I just think that so many memoirs are bad. I'm just gonna throw that out.

Jess Lee 24:27

That's what I've heard. People be like, "Oh, you have to listen to Demi Moore's, and I'm like, "I don't, I don't care to.

Traci Thomas 24:33

listen to me. The Demi Moore one is good.

Jess Lee 24:36

People love it.

Traci Thomas 24:37

I don't even know who Demi Moore is. Like, I only read her. Like, I was like oh you were married to Bruce Willis I was like oh right you did date Ashton Kutcher like I I was like oh I'm entertained by this it's a good memoir, um but that's not what I would put you on I wouldn't put you on a celebrity memoir. Have you not read Men We Reaped?

Jess Lee 24:53

No, I haven't. I haven't.

Traci Thomas 24:55

That's phenomenal. That's a phenomenal all the time. It just you'll love it. I know. For sure, you'll love it. All right, like I, I have not a single doubt. You've read Heavy

Jess Lee 25:06

I have, yeah, loved that

Traci Thomas 25:07

You liked it, yeah. You'll love Men We Reaped

Jess Lee 25:10

okay.

Traci Thomas 25:10

Also, this this month as we're recording, but last month as y'all are listening, we read Brother, I'm Dying by Edwidge Danticat, and it's so so good.

Jess Lee 25:19

I'd never even heard of that until I saw that you were reading it, and now I was like, "Hey, maybe I should read this. But then I was unsure because, again, I just am like, "Am I no memoirs 100% except for a very select few?

Traci Thomas 25:32

Maybe you'll like this one. I think you'll like this one because if you're saying you don't want like one person's small story,

Jess Lee 25:37

no.

Traci Thomas 25:37

The thing that's interesting about this book is it's her memoir, but it's her memoir of her dad and her uncle, who both raised her at different parts in her life, and Haiti, where she's from. So there's like a little history in it. You're getting like sort of, it's really well done. When the episode drops on Wednesday, you can listen and tell me if you're interested. Although there are some spoilers in it, anyways. Okay, before we go to someone else's book recommendation that they want us to give them, you are leading the charge in one of the most important American literary crises of our time, which is that our former president Barack Obama, who is allegedly literate,

Jess Lee 26:19

allegedly

Traci Thomas 26:21

compared to, comparatively, we know he is literate. Like compared to the current president, we know that he's more literate. But he is romance illiterate.

Jess Lee 26:30

It's it's up it's so upsetting to me.

Traci Thomas 26:32

He posts his lists every year.

Jess Lee 26:35

Every year, there's no romance on every year, and it's not even like it's just one. He posts one in the summer, and he posts one at the end of the year. He posts two, if not three, and there's never been a romance.

Traci Thomas 26:47

Okay, so let me ask you this: If you were going, you get one romance novel to recommend to Barack Obama. It has to be a home run. He has to read it and love it. This is one shot, one book. What's the book you think Barack needs to read? What's the romance you should read?

Speaker 1 27:04

August Lane by Regina Black.

Traci Thomas 27:07

Tell us about it.

Jess Lee 27:08

So, August Lane by Regina Black is about a young woman who is a country music star, and she makes like really great music, and everybody. She's black. She makes really great music. Everybody within like the black community like really knows who she is, and is an amazing lyricist. And then she just kind of disappears, and then her daughter decides that she wants to make music, and she pens like this really great song, and is with she's like 17, and she's with a boy in her town that she falls in love with, and he takes her music and says that it's it's his own, and he becomes famous, and so she has this like deep dive into depression and is really not able to come out of it, and that's Augustine, and then he has like a quick fall from grace because he's a black country music star and is subject to all of this racism and oppression. And he comes back to the hometown and they rekindle. And then it's all-it's really all about who owns music and, in particular, like who owns country, right? Like where did country come from? Are black people able to sing country? Should they sing country? What does it mean for them to sing country? What are the different pieces of that make country the music genre that it is, and how does it have its roots within like Black music in general? And this idea of ownership of of lyrics and song and coming up within a world that assumes that you should be something when you might be something else, right? And then there's this like really beautiful romance within it where he's an alcoholic and she again is like deep in a depression, and they're trying to figure out not only how to come back to themselves but how to come back to each other as well. It's actually quite sad, right? You're reading this book about these people who are so deeply low in their lives, and before that, they can come together. They have to figure themselves out.

Traci Thomas 29:03

So, giving a star is born.

Jess Lee 29:05

I think I think there's probably some similarities in terms of it being music and it being people who were like deeply mentally unwell, right?

Traci Thomas 29:12

And I'm just picturing Bradley Cooper in blackface.

Jess Lee 29:16

You know, sold. I hate that song.

Traci Thomas 29:23

I hate that song.

Jess Lee 29:23

I hate that song. He's so offensive to me, and that as well. Now I can't stop thinking about it. No, I think that it's really good.

Traci Thomas 29:31

Okay, I I'm interested. Read it. If you want to come on this podcast and do it for book club, doors open. Yeah. Honestly, Brooke, we could do anything. But if you wanted to do that,

Jess Lee 29:40

you're like, I don't care. It doesn't have to be romance. I come on this pod.

Traci Thomas 29:43

Yeah, I mean, would be great to get you to do romance. What would what would you do if I got Barack Obama to come on this podcast to read a romance novel?

Jess Lee 29:51

I would be like 20% really excited and 80% like, why not me?

Traci Thomas 29:59

Why not you coming on the show to do romance?

Jess Lee 30:01

Why not me? No, why not me with Barack? Me come to meet Barack.

Traci Thomas 30:05

We've never done a book club with three people on the show, but maybe maybe you could be his coach. Like you could like coach him through reading it.

Jess Lee 30:11

I just think that there is an assumption that romance is like cliche and flighty and smut and blah blah blah, and sure, there are some pieces that are that right, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. But I, whenever I push back, there's so many comments that I get that are like Barack reads real books, and I'm like, well, what do you mean by that,

Traci Thomas 30:34

right?

Jess Lee 30:34

And I think that's also

Traci Thomas 30:35

Barack Barack reads really bad books too. Like sometimes his list are so bad. I almost died when ? was on the list.

Jess Lee 30:44

Horrible. Some of the recommendations on there, I'm like, is this a joke? So yeah, I mean, I like

Traci Thomas 30:50

his fiction taste is generally pretty decent. It's his nonfiction that I'm just like, please,

Jess Lee 30:56

no thanks, bro. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 30:58

Okay, let's take a break, and then I've got other stuff for you. Okay, we're back. We're gonna do ask the stacks. That's where people write in. They email ask the stacks@thestackpodcast.com to ask for book recommendations. People at home, we love when you send these in, so please do that. This one comes from Kate. It's very short. I picked it because I can't do this without someone like you. So Kate says, "Hi, I'm looking for a book with a sort of beach read vacation vibe, a twisty plot, ideally murdery and or thrillery, but not horror or graphic violence. Thanks. I normally come up with three recommendations, and I tell my guests they can come up with one to three. I only have two here, and they're not particularly great. So you're going to have to do a little more heavy lifting for me.

Jess Lee 31:52

Okay,

Traci Thomas 31:53

you're acting like you don't know, but I know that you do. I know that you read murdery thrillery books.

Jess Lee 31:59

I do. I do love a murdery thrillery book,

Traci Thomas 32:02

and I'm now realizing when I said when they said no graphic violence that my first book is full of graphic violence. My problem is here's the problem for me, Kate. I don't read a lot of murdery thrillery books, and the ones that I do are specifically graphic. Like I like violence. Hi, kids. Do you like violence? Do you want to see me stick nine-inch nails to each of my eyelids? What? That's Eminem.

Jess Lee 32:26

I know. [?

Traci Thomas 32:29

I know. I don't know. I just said I like violence, and that's what made me.

Jess Lee 32:32

Yeah, no, that worked. That worked. I agree.

Traci Thomas 32:34

So my first recommendation, which is not what you asked for, but I'm just gonna give it to you, and I'm gonna I'm gonna open the door to anything by this author, and it's so obvious, but it's SA Cosby. Yeah, I was gonna say King of Ashes because I like that one better than Razor Blade Tears, but there are some really graphic scenes of King of Ashes, so I've only read those two. Does Blacktop Wasteland have as much violence?

Jess Lee 32:56

It definitely does, but I think I don't think as much.

Traci Thomas 33:00

Yeah, King of Ashes was particularly violent.

Jess Lee 33:02

King of Ashes was tough, but I think that was my favorite.

Traci Thomas 33:06

I liked it better than Razor Blade Tears. But then my other one is sort of inspired by you, just because you reminded me that I loved this book. Monday's Not Coming. It's by Tiffany Jackson. It's a YA thriller sort of book. Maybe it's sort of a mystery. I can't remember if she. I read in 2020, so I don't remember.

Jess Lee 33:22

It's definitely a mystery.

Traci Thomas 33:24

It's a mystery, but no, no.

Jess Lee 33:26

I think it's a. That's tough.

Traci Thomas 33:29

It's on the. It's on the line. It's about a girl, a little black girl whose best friend is named Monday, and she just like doesn't show up for school, and she's trying to figure out if like something has happened, or the girl is just like avoiding her, or she's like at a different place, like, and she's just like, I don't know. That's how I remember it. I can't. I don't want to say what I remember is the ending. It's what I'm trying not to say when I remember because I want you to read it. But it was really good. It was one of my favorite books I read that year.

Jess Lee 33:58

Yeah. No, that's a wonderful book. I think that's a great suggestion.

Traci Thomas 34:02

Okay, what do you have?

Jess Lee 34:03

Okay, I'm gonna do two.

Traci Thomas 34:05

Okay,

Jess Lee 34:06

and then can well, I'm gonna do a third, but it's one that hasn't come out yet. Okay, so my first one is the one that I was talking to you about. So it's called Pray for Me by Ali Oliander. It just came out, I think, last week or two weeks ago, and it is part of a subgenre, maybe of romance, and it's a primal romance, which essentially has like primal kinks as part of it. So it's definitely very like kink and BDSM heavy. But the main character is coming from a cult that she left, and her ex husband ultimately, you know, led and ran, and she is now a PA and works part time at this haunted house. And she falls in love with the man who runs the haunted house. And she likes to be scared, and that's like her kink with like mask play. And he likes to do the scaring, but there's this whole fun thriller on the back end. Where she's being like left snakes with Bible passages about all the bad that she's done and that she sinned and blah blah blah blah blah, and you don't know who's coming after her and is like leaving blood on her front porch. So definitely like twisty, murdery, thrillery, but also has some like really fun primal play kink if that's like your jam. My second, my second one is

Traci Thomas 35:25

that's a big if.

Jess Lee 35:28

Like I understand might not be everybody's right of like a man and like a wolf mask, but also you know to each their own

Traci Thomas 35:34

worked for you.

Jess Lee 35:35

Yeah, I enjoyed it. The second is Die for Me by Shirlene Boby.

Traci Thomas 35:42

Pray for me, die for me, die for me.

Jess Lee 35:45

I know. Yeah. And this one is probably more of like a fantasy, but within a contemporary world.

Traci Thomas 35:55

And I like this cover.

Jess Lee 35:57

Yeah, it's a really nice cover. He is something that you don't know, and you will find at some point. But she falls in love with this younger man, starts sleeping with him, and then starts like aging really drastically and getting really tired, and is trying to figure out what's happening to her at the same point where other people around her are dying. And so, definitely romance forward, but also is like a little twisty and definitely murdery as you're trying, and for sure a beach read. Like you can read this on a vacation and be like, yes, invested. My third one is a romantic suspense. It comes out next year. It's called The Lotus Inn by Nisha Sharma, and it's about three Indian sisters who all have to come home because their dad was murdered, and they have to figure out why, and they are working within a town that is very racist in the Poconos and doesn't want this Indian family to live there. They own an inn that's like dilapidated, and they have to figure out solve the mystery of who killed their dad, while obviously kind of like falling falling in love along the way. So those three, I think, would be good ones.

Traci Thomas 37:03

Okay, all right, everybody. If you want book recommendations read on the air for yourself, email askthestacks@thestackspodcast.com. Me and my guest will do our best, or we'll do our worst. You have to email to find out. All right, Jess. Now, now it's your turn. You're in the hot seat. Here we go. Two books you love, one book you hate.

Jess Lee 37:25

Okay, two books I love. Wow, this is really tough. Okay, first book I'm gonna say is Private Arrangements by Sherry Thomas. Something that you should know about me is that I am deeply, deeply, deeply obsessed with marriage in crisis as a trope in romance, so it's where people are already married,

Traci Thomas 37:43

already married,

Jess Lee 37:44

and they are having a tough go.

Traci Thomas 37:46

Okay,

Jess Lee 37:47

and I always feel like I have to do a caveat of like my marriage is not in crisis, but I really enjoy reading about it because it feels more realistic to me. I think I like the happy, you know, I like the happy ever after. Like that's really fun, but I like the what happens after, and how do people find like go back to finding each other when they're living through all these things? So, private arrangements is a historical romance, and they're married but don't live on the same continent and haven't for the last 10 years, and you don't know why they hate each other. And he comes back because he needs an heir

Traci Thomas 38:21

H E I R

Jess Lee 38:23

I R yeah he needs her to he needs to beget an heir he needs to do the nasty so that they have

Traci Thomas 38:29

an heir yeah

Jess Lee 38:32

and it's all about trying to figure out like why they fell out as we are then watching them fall back in love again so private arrangements is like top tier

Traci Thomas 38:40

so your marriage in crisis trope, is that usually does that mean that the people in the marriage are the main character?

Jess Lee 38:49

Correct. There's nobody outside. It is that.

Traci Thomas 38:51

Okay. So then you know that the marriage is going to be uncrisised by the end of the book. That is the happy ending. Okay. Okay.

Jess Lee 38:57

Correct.

Traci Thomas 38:58

So it's not an affair.

Jess Lee 39:01

Not oh no, I don't read cheating on page.

Traci Thomas 39:05

Oh really? That's like my favorite thing. I love well

Jess Lee 39:07

well in a romance. I can't do it in a romance. unless like I, I can't do it.

Traci Thomas 39:07

What if she's married? What if she's married to a fucking asshole and then she cheats and then they find love? You romance people don't want to let cheaters win, okay? Sometimes when you cheat, or when someone cheats, it's because the the original person sucks. You guys are so fucking straight laced with some of this shit. You know this is what makes me annoyed with romance. Y'all be oh, I'll read a fucking fairy, fucking a werewolf with no ankles, and then all of a sudden, next thing you know, oh, but she cheated. Can't read it.

Jess Lee 39:39

Not no ankles. So here's my thing. I don't. I liked it though. I don't like cheating if it's like too deep in the book, right? So like, if there's some cheating that happens in the first 50% Like sure, but I want those that couple that is the happily ever after to be solidified and together, or at least I know they're going to be together within like you know there's got to be like 50% left. If there's cheating at like 80% 90% I'm like, what?

Traci Thomas 40:15

What's the genre of romance called where you don't know who the person's going to end up with until the end. That's the genre I like.

Jess Lee 40:24

Well, do you like it? Well, question: Do you like there? So there's multiple people, and then it's like polyamorous, or it's a wide.

Traci Thomas 40:31

No, I want I like a love triangle more. I want options.

Speaker 1 40:36

Interesting.

Traci Thomas 40:37

I like options, and I like to not know who the because I'm like, okay, well, once we're 50% in, and I know you guys are together, you really could just end the book for me here. Like, I don't know why this book is 400 pages when I'm at page 150, and everyone's good. I don't need the little breakup. Just end it here. We're done.

Jess Lee 40:55

I don't like. I would prefer a no love triangle. I prefer a why choose. Like, if you're in a love triangle, why notkeep everyone together? Where it's a love triangle, but they're like all you're you're gonna end up together. It's polyamorous.

Traci Thomas 41:07

Oh, yeah.

Jess Lee 41:08

So like 123, Instead of being like oh A and B or B and C, it's like why not A, B, C?

Traci Thomas 41:13

Well, I feel like A and B and B and C provides dramatic tension for me that will keep sustained through the book. If it's ABC, I'm not even picking it up. I'm like, we don't. Why choose? Why read? Okay, what's your second book you love?

Jess Lee 41:28

I think my second book I love is probably it's, and I have to do recent because otherwise, like, I mean, there's 200 million books I could pick, but I think Kin by Tayari Jones was so good, and it just like I feel like I both flew through it and read it really slowly because I didn't want it to end. It was so beautiful, and I think the relationship that they had together, especially when they were separate and they're only really talking through letters, was so beautiful. And that's one of the things that I love so much about romance. Whenever you have a romance where people are writing to each other, I think it like adds so much connection and so much like tangible depth to the story. And it was sad, but I don't think I I left it feeling unhopeful, right? Like I left it still being like, wow, that was such a deeply beautiful story, and like they lived such phenomenal lives and normal lives that were so beautiful. I just, I, I, I don't reread. I reread a lot, but I reread things that are like so deeply personal. And I've been really considering rereading that. And I read it in February, but just to be like, my heart needs to like

Traci Thomas 42:41

do it again.

Jess Lee 42:41

Yeah, it was so well written. Yeah, I loved it.

Traci Thomas 42:45

So good. I agree. Book you hate.

Jess Lee 42:47

I think Fourth Wing is trash.

Traci Thomas 42:49

Okay, I love this for us.

Jess Lee 42:51

Yeah, it's not well written and it's boring.

Traci Thomas 42:55

And they're not fucking. What are you reading right now?

Jess Lee 42:58

Oh, great question. So I'm reading. I'm reading a historical romance right now, "Begiling the Beauty, which is also by Sherry Thomas. Historical romance is where I go when my brain is really overwhelmed because it feels really good to me. And then the second one that I'm reading is actually right behind me, and I left it there so I didn't forget. Hold on. Okay, it's "Friends and Family" by Natalie Bazile.

Traci Thomas 43:21

Oh yeah, yeah.

Jess Lee 43:22

I think it comes out in a month.

Traci Thomas 43:23

Is that a romance? No, literary fiction.

Jess Lee 43:26

Yeah, and it's about a black woman and her friend, her like beautiful friendship with this white woman who has an adopted black son, and then something happens. I've not gotten to that part yet. Something happens where their two children are targeted by the police, and the way that the two moms deal with it is like very polarizing and starts to pull their relationship apart. And I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be really interesting to see how it plays out and to see how how race plays out within an interracial friendship. Yeah, and I'm I'm enjoying it a lot so far.

Traci Thomas 44:02

Okay, what's a book that you really just like love to recommend to people?

Jess Lee 44:09

I think probably Real by Kennedy Ryan.

Traci Thomas 44:12

Okay, what's a book? What's the last really good book someone has recommended to you?

Jess Lee 44:17

Oh, it's what the other one I'm reading right now, which I forgot, is The Only Plane in the sky?

Traci Thomas 44:22

Did I recommend it?

Jess Lee 44:23

And you recommended it.

Traci Thomas 44:26

it's so good.

Jess Lee 44:27

It's I'm listening to it on audio, and it's so long, but it is so good. And it, I like expected to be sad, right? But I didn't expect to both like learn so much and be like continually so interested throughout every like the way that he set it up, and then the oral history vibe of it and all the different voices. Like I thank you. This book is I'm enjoying it so much.

Traci Thomas 44:53

Go me, go me. See, I can recommend books. Not you're not the only one. Take that. So I have like a pretty strict no audio book rule when I read oral history because I the way the formatting is on the page like it's too hard for me to follow when the voices change but I've heard this one is so good that I am considering at least giving it a try on audio but for me and my personal reading style because like the way that it looks on a page is like a script, you know. It's like says the person's name. I just feel like I need it on the page, but everyone loves it so much. I know there's like voice recordings and all this stuff, so I I may I may consider trying it on audio for a reread. I sort of feel like I'm due for a reread, but

Jess Lee 45:37

I would try it. And honestly, throughout, very rarely do I listen to something and think, "Oh, I wish I was eyeball reading it. And I have said multiple times, like maybe I'll buy a copy and do like an immersive and eyeball read because I wanted to see how it looked on the page. Yeah, but yeah, the audio is wonderful.

Traci Thomas 45:55

Yeah, are there any things you wish were different about your reading life?

Jess Lee 46:00

I do wish I read more nonfiction. I think when I read nonfiction, it's very sometimes few and far between, and a lot of the times revolving around my work. And so it feels more like work than it feels enjoyable. And so I wish that I could spend more time like diving into nonfiction that I just found interesting, versus it being feeling like it was something that I had to read for work. I think the only plane in the sky is a good example of just a nonfiction that I find really interesting. And then I'm really proud of how I've been doing with audio books. I've only listened to audio books for the last probably three years. My first one was how the word is was passed by Clint, and it was why can't I remember his last name?

Traci Thomas 46:41

Smith.

Jess Lee 46:42

Smith. Oh my God! Thank you. And it was so enjoyable, and it took me a really long time. So I've been really happy to like kind of rework my brain in reading more audio, and I want to continue that.

Traci Thomas 46:55

Yeah, I'm. I started audio books. I think in 20 like 19.

Jess Lee 47:00

Oh wow, that's a long time.

Traci Thomas 47:02

Yeah, and now I can do it pretty well. But there are sometimes where I'll like listen to start an audio book, and I'm like, oh no, I can't do this. Like sometimes I just like no, and I'm like, it's not even the book. It's just like the style of the writing or the style of the narrator. I'm just like, I I literally can't be here. Like my brain just starts to like tune it out like my kids,

Jess Lee 47:22

100% And I think narrators make or break an audio book. If I like, I've stopped. I've like DNF'd audio books, and then I've switched to eyeball reading and have loved it so much more. If it's a shitty narrator, I I can't do it.

Traci Thomas 47:34

I also feel like though audiobook sometimes like if the book is poorly written, the audiobook can save it. Can I like more. I'm like I'm like you know what this writing is so bad, but like if I'm listening, I'm sort of like for example that Elizabeth Gilbert's new book. It's really bad. The writing is so cringy, but the audio book I I hated the audio book. I hate the book. Period. But the audio book, because it's her reading it and like her telling the story, you're sort of interested in what's going to happen because you're like she's like good at telling the story,

Jess Lee 48:09

right?

Traci Thomas 48:10

But the writing of the story is really bad. I also feel similarly like I just finished "Dangerous, Dirty, Violent, and Young" by it's on the National Book Award long list for nonfiction, and it's by Zade Ayers Dorn. His parents are Bernadine Dorn and Bill Ayers, who were part of the like Weather Underground. Bernadine was the leader, and it is written terribly. Like the writing is really bad. Like he'll get to the end of a chapter and be like, "My mother was a good girl. Little did she know how the 1960s would shape her life. And it's like, well, we all know how the 1960s are going to shape a radical's life. Or would be like, on April 3rd, 1968, nobody knew how the world would change. It's like, oh my god, we don't know. Yeah, we have a piece of information we're familiar, but there's like so many of those. Like I don't know, it's just. But the audio book is sort of good because I'm like, oh, I want to know what he has to say. The book is not good, but it does. Like I feel like sometimes audio can save a book just as much as audio can break a book.

Jess Lee 49:17

100% 100% Did he read? Does he read the audio?

Traci Thomas 49:20

He reads it.

Jess Lee 49:21

Yeah. Sometimes I think that that is part of what saves it, right? If it's the author, the like their intonation, the way that they are writing the book comes through, and the way that then they speak it.

Traci Thomas 49:31

Yeah, it feels personal. Whereas, like when there's a a professional narrator who reads a memoir, sometimes I'm like, this feels stilted.

Jess Lee 49:39

Yeah, I wouldn't like that. I want the person to read it. Tell me about your life. Don't have somebody else tell me.

Traci Thomas 49:44

I agree. A lot of like older audio, like older books that are audio books. I like to have someone else reading them because it was before sort of like podcasting, and people were okay with listening to people who talk in vocal fry or people who love weird vocal tics or who talk too fast or. Like they had it, it's different. So older memoirs, I sort of avoid on audio. That makes

Jess Lee 50:06

That makes sense.

Traci Thomas 50:07

What's your ideal reading setup? Location, time of day, snack or beverage? You know.

Jess Lee 50:14

Yeah, I will read at any point. So I think ideal for me is like you know when when my office will be nicer and my library will be nicer, like a nice big cozy chair. I like multiple blankets because I like being warm. If it's in the morning, it'd be coffee, but let's be serious, it's most likely a glass of wine and like a nice dim lighting. But I like really mostly like reading by water. Like I think I read by water the best. Like on my parents' boat in Maine, I will devour. Sometimes I'll wake up at like six in the morning to sit on the boat and read a book by myself.

Traci Thomas 50:52

When you say multiple blankets, is that multiple blanket options or multiple blankets on top of you at one time?

Jess Lee 50:57

Multiple blankets on top of me at one time, but that have different textures.

Traci Thomas 51:01

Okay, got it.

Jess Lee 51:02

Yeah, so like maybe a weighted blanket and then a fuzzy blanket and then like one that can just kind of be draped over my shoulders.

Traci Thomas 51:08

Got it. I I love a blanket as well. This is really great for me to hear this. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Jess Lee 51:14

I really love in Providence. There's a bookstore called Heartleaf, which is queer owned. Two sisters, they're phenomenal. It's really tiny, but they have a like wide variety of books and a lot of depth, particularly within queer and feminist books. And so there's oh, if there's something that I'm like oh, it might be kind of obscure. Like Hartleif probably has it, and they're in Providence, Rhode Island. They also had a cat, their cat Penny, who unfortunately passed away last month. But then they just got two new kittens, and I just like love a bookstore with cats. Like it feels so cozy and homey. So that's probably a favorite. Yeah, I was gonna say you don't like that.

Traci Thomas 51:57

I'm allergic to cats. Also, I don't want animals.

Jess Lee 51:57

Oh, that's sad. No, I love it. Like a cat walking over a book. I'm like, that's so cute.

Traci Thomas 52:05

It might be cute, but animals. What's the last book that made you cry?

Jess Lee 52:11

The last book that made me cry was probably Lost and Found by Tara Dewitt. It has a breast cancer element to it that I found deeply personal and resonated a lot. And I just she writes very like hopeful yet sad books, and I just know I'm going to cry a significant amount. So I like to think very thoughtfully of like, oh, I might do. I need to cry? Then let me like open a tear to it.

Traci Thomas 52:43

What's the last book that made you angry?

Jess Lee 52:44

Probably American Nightmare. We just talked about that book. I just finished it maybe last week. So that's American Nightmare by Kelly McWilliams, and it is about a very, very, very light-skinned black man who decides to go into the NAACP to be a spy in the early 1900s and go down to the South as like white passing as a white man to investigate the different lynchings that are happening in the South, and he is based off a real person who I didn't know, and it's very interesting and I think both me was interesting and angry. The fact that like this man completely disappeared for a significant amount of time, and all of this work that he did to undercover the different or uncover the different lynchings that were happening in the South was completely forgotten until like the 80s or 90s. And the book is like so deeply violent and so scary, and the pieces of you know it's like a take on lynching that is like very unflinching. So I think it's hard to read that and not get a little angry.

Traci Thomas 53:54

Now I'm mad we're not reading that for book club. That was one of our options. We went through a lot of options. We decided on Last Chance Live, which is a YA book, sort of like it sounds like it's going to be a YA take on sort of of Chain Gang All Stars a little bit. It's about it's like a dystopia. I don't think it's a romance dystopia.

Jess Lee 54:14

No, it's not.

Traci Thomas 54:15

I don't think so. But it's about a girl who is on death row or who's trying to get paroled and is going to be on some sort of reality, violent reality TV show.

Jess Lee 54:27

It sounds so good.

Traci Thomas 54:29

It sounds really good. We rarely do YA on this show, but it sounds adult enough that it won't make me want to pull my eyes out. And it sounds a little dark enough that it could be like considered for spooky season because you know I don't spooky season. This is the ninth. We're eight years into the show, but like our ninth full rotation, and we've never done. We did Frankenstein, which is the closest I've ever come to.

Jess Lee 54:53

I feel like you have to do something that's like spooky, spooky. Will it give you nightmares? Is that what it is?

Traci Thomas 54:58

I can't. I won't. I can't. I literally can't do it. Like that is a hard line for me. If it's too scary, I can't do it.

Jess Lee 55:05

And you don't watch scary movies, scary TV?

Traci Thomas 55:07

no, really, nothing scary. Like because I turn like political thrillers give me nightmares. Do you know what I mean? Like when I read Blood in the Water about the Attica prison uprising, I read it in four days because I was having nightmares, so I just had to push through so I could finish it. Yeah, I was like, I'm. It's really scary. So like, I can't do anything. I can't have like the image of a scary thing when I go to the movies and they do like a scary movie preview. It always [?] to me because I'm like, now I still have this image in my head and I haven't even seen it. Like, there's that movie coming out called like Bad Mommy or

Jess Lee 55:39

No, I won't look at that. That's that's yucky to me. That yeah. Well, there

Traci Thomas 55:43

Well, there was a preview when I saw the Odyssey or something, and I was like, "Why are you doing this to me? I'm here to see Greek mythology. I'm not here to see Jessica Chastain's like be creepy, throw up like pea soup or whatever.

Jess Lee 55:53

No, I don't like that either. I would agree. I do like to be scared a little, but not a lot.

Traci Thomas 55:58

I like to be scared a little to continue reading, but I don't like to be scared enough that it really sits on my life.

Jess Lee 56:05

No, I understand that. I understand that.

Traci Thomas 56:07

Like I'm scared of the dark. I don't like any of it. Okay, what's your problematic favorite book?

Jess Lee 56:13

There is a book series that is probably my problematic face, and it is by Jonathan Mayberry, and it is a-it's like Reacher, kind of, right? But his name is Joe Ledger, and there are like 15 of these books, and it's like paramilitary, like a lot of white people, a lot of murder, doesn't always have the best ideas about you know societal issues and concerns, but I started reading these with my grandfather when I was like 18. These aren't romances. No, they're not romance. There, it's like a little nostalgic, but not def like definitely not one that I would recommend. And then there's a historical romance that I've reread this year that does not hold up because the consent is actually like quite concerning. Okay, quite concerning.

Traci Thomas 57:14

But you can't think of the name of it.

Jess Lee 57:15

But I can't think of the name of it. No, maybe I read it last year. Oh, there it is. It's Lord of Scoundrels, Loretta Chase. I don't know how I couldn't think of that. And it is-I mean, there is, you know, it came out in the 90s. It's tough. It's tough, but it's very. I mean, it is good if you look at it, you know, within the 90s point of view.

Traci Thomas 57:38

Yeah, if you were a high school teacher, you can pick the class, the kind of class you teach. English is usually people do, but if you want to do something more specific, you can. What's the book you would assign your students?

Jess Lee 57:52

I would probably do Legendborn by Traci Dion. I think that's a book that if I had that in high school, I think that it would have probably it would have changed like my reading life. Not that my reading life has been bad, but I think it would have put me on a really interesting trajectory. It's such a good book for a high schooler. You know, 16 year old has Greek mythology. She's in like an early college program in North Carolina, and realizes that she's part of this broader, like mythological King Arthur and his court world, and has to deal with that while also understand, like, deeply understanding the historical racism that she and her family has faced and her ancestors have faced, you know, years in the past. So good, and Traci is so thoughtful and is obviously a researcher because all of the different research that she pulls into her books, I think, is really interesting, and I think it would be really fun for a high school high school class to read.

Traci Thomas 58:50

I don't normally ask this one, though; it's always on the questioner. I always forget to ask it, but I'm going to ask you: What is on your bookish bucket list?

Jess Lee 58:58

I would love to visit a bookstore in every state.

Traci Thomas 59:01

Ooh, have you? Do you have an idea how many states you visited a bookstore in?

Jess Lee 59:06

I've probably done. I feel like 20 to 25 states is probably a good, a good number. Yeah, good guess because we've like driven through a lot of states, and I've just popped in, and then I'd love to hit up some of those like really fancy big libraries in Europe, you know that are just like absurd. Like I went to a library in Austria and it was like one of the wildest experiences of my life. So yeah, I think continuing to just visit different fancy libraries and go to a bookstore in every state would be really cool.

Traci Thomas 59:36

Last one: if you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be? And don't say, don't say August Lane. He needs a different. He needs his own book recommendation.

Jess Lee 59:48

No, this president cannot read August Lane. I think that'd be terrible. Honestly, I think. I mean, I talked about it before, but I think how the word is passed. Would be a really interesting one to recommend. Would he read it? I don't know if he's literate, but would he read it and enjoy it? Like maybe not, but I think from a historical perspective and understanding how stories are shared and the ways that ultimately, you know, the victor is decided or like a story is told by whoever wins, and then that is completely shaped by their experience and their bias, I think would be very important for him to understand.

Traci Thomas 1:00:26

You know, Clint Smith has a new book coming next year.

Jess Lee 1:00:28

I do know that, and I cannot wait.

Traci Thomas 1:00:31

I think it's called Under the Soil. I think yes, something like something in the soil. It's about how it's basically how the world word is passed, but World War Two, just beneath the soil, which is a way better title than under the soil.

Jess Lee 1:00:44

Than under the soil, yeah. Just beneath the soil,

Traci Thomas 1:00:46

and that's why Clint is the writer and I am the reader. I read what he tells me. Jess, you are amazing. Thank you for being here. You're going to be back on October 28th for our book club discussion of Last chance live people. If you haven't gotten your copy of the book, you can get it from Reparations Club, our local Black woman-owned, queer-owned bookstore here in LA. They will send it to you. They will give you 10% off if you use the code the Stacks. The code actually might be Stacks 10. It's a great question. Try both, see what happens. There's a 10% off code, so you'll get it. But you can also get it anywhere you get your books. It is out in the world. Jess, thank you so much for being here.

Jess Lee 1:01:29

Thank you. I had such a good time. This was very, very exciting. I'm so glad to have finally, finally been able to come on.

Traci Thomas 1:01:38

You did it. Yeah, and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all! Thank you so much for listening today, and thank you again to Jess Lee for joining the show. Our book club pick for October is Last Chance Live by Helena Haywood Henry. Jess will be back with us on Wednesday, October 28th, to discuss this novel. Make sure subscribe to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. If you love the stacks and you want even more bookish content, head to Patreon.com/slash/theStacks to join the Stacks pack, and subscribe to my newsletter at Traci Thomas Substack.com. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod on Instagram, Threads, and YouTube, and you can also check out our website@thestackspodcast.com. Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support provided by Grace Barry and Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagurigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Traci Thomas
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Ep. 444 Brother, I’m Dying by Edwidge Danticat — The Stacks Book Club (Natalie Green)